tpaewr
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UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:12 pm

Maybe some fun idle speculation on the plans for these birds? Clearly their missions are shifting to long haul int'l or they would not be refitted. Some will likely replace 752s X/EWR. But i suspect we will see some new routes. I would put *A hubs are the *top* of the list. EWR-VIE/IST/WAW all are very viable I believe.


I think we could also see additional deep S America (eg return to SCL)


Or maybe something out of left field? EWR-DKR-JNB (CO tried this with WO M11s in the mid-90s)
 
deltamartin
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting tpaewr (Thread starter):
EWR-VIE/IST/WAW all are very viable I believe.

ARN, CPH and OSL would be likely aswell I guess.
 
aznmadsci
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:40 pm

I can see IAH-LIM return as a BF flight with these new 763s.

From CO/UA And Latin America possibly IAH-SCL. I would also like to see new IAH-Europe but those may be on 3-class or 788s.
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laxboeingman
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:03 pm

I believe they could also fly to more destinations in Germany as well. I think it is great that UA is doing this. Would this be done if they did not make a profit?

Thank you for answers/comments,

laxboeingman
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:56 pm

A lot of the speculation depends on the 762 plans, if the plan is to rapidly phase out the remaining 8 762s by next Summer then a big chunk of these newly configured 763s will go to those routes:

EWR-
1 MUC- MXP 1- GRU 1-

IAH-
EZE 1- GRU 1-

Beyond those routes I can see going to the newly converted 763s;

EWR-
CPH 1- ARN 1- OSL 1- MAD 1- BCN 1 - AMS 1- TXL 1-
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washingtonian
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
Beyond those routes I can see going to the newly converted 763s;

EWR-
CPH 1- ARN 1- OSL 1- MAD 1- BCN 1 - AMS 1- TXL 1-

I also expect them to replace some of the 3-class 763s out of IAD and ORD so that premium-heavy routes out of Newark could get 3-class 767s. We're going to see lots of shifting going around!

I still think it will be some combination of: 762 replacement, 3-class 763 replacement (freeing those for Newark and elsewhere), upgauge on certain routes from 752 (freeing those 752s for additional routes).
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:08 pm

There are these 14 reconfigured 767-300s as well as 6 787-8s coming aboard in 2012, so lots of possibilities for new flying even if UA decides to retire the remaining 762s.
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washingtonian
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:28 pm

I also wonder if they'll ever fully integrate the 777 fleets such that the PMCO 777s with GE engines will be flown all over the network, or if they'll try to keep them in one or two cities.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:32 pm

I can't help but believe they will spread them out at least a little. Those max weight 777-200ERs are needed to Asia, including Kuwait and Dubai.

The non ER 777s will handle routes to Europe from EWR just fine.

NS
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
I also wonder if they'll ever fully integrate the 777 fleets such that the PMCO 777s with GE engines will be flown all over the network, or if they'll try to keep them in one or two cities.

If costs were no obstacle the ideal role for the 22 PMCO 777-200ERs with the GE-90s would be three class Trans-Pacific flights from LAX, SFO, ORD, IAH, EWR and IAD. And the Pratt Powered PMUA 777-200ERs would be converted to two class flying to Latin America and Trans-Atlantic.

Still not convinced the PMUA three class 777s can make EWR-HKG with the same loads as PMCO's 777s.
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ein105
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:08 pm

What kind of configuration will/are these two class 767s going to be fitted with? I wonder will they be used on sone routes that CO Currently operates two daily 757s on, like DUB and MAN?
 
tpaewr
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:00 am

Quoting ein105 (Reply 10):
I wonder will they be used on sone routes that CO Currently operates two daily 757s on, like DUB and MAN?

Keep in mind that a single 763 would be about the same J, but HUGE cut in Y v 2x 752. Markets like DUB and MAN are more Y based. Plus the 2X 752s let the pax be spread over diff banks in EWR.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):


Still not convinced the PMUA three class 777s can make EWR-HKG with the same loads as PMCO's 777s.

Interesting point, in the case of HKG PMUA's 744 flew JFK-HKG, and UA seems to employ the 744 to HKG v the 777 anyway. I expect EWR-HKG to go 744 in not too longOther ultra long hauls are anothre issue (eg BOM).

I suspect next year we will see big shifts, 2 cabins to cities like FCO and AMS from all hubs. With 3 cabin planes shifting to LHR and FRA from IAH and EWR.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:06 am

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 11):
Interesting point, in the case of HKG PMUA's 744 flew JFK-HKG, and UA seems to employ the 744 to HKG v the 777 anyway. I expect EWR-HKG to go 744 in not too longOther ultra long hauls are anothre issue (eg BOM).

The UA 744 on JFK-HKG suffered severe weight restrictions, which contributed to it's short term operating.
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FSDan
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:24 am

The downside to all this is that widebodies are being pulled off of PMUA hub-hub routes. In October, here is what is left of the domestic widebody flights:

SFO-ORD/ORD-SFO 2x 763
SFO-IAH/IAH-SFO 1x 763
SFO-IAD/IAD-SFO 1x763 1x 777

LAX-DEN/DEN-LAX 1x 763 1x 777
LAX-IAD/IAD-LAX 1x 763 1x 777

DEN-ORD/ORD-DEN 1x 777
DEN-IAD/IAD-DEN 1x 763

ORD-IAD/IAD-ORD 1x 763

I hope that even when all the domestic 763s and 777s are converted that there will still be a decent amount of repositioning flights.
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gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Still not convinced the PMUA three class 777s can make EWR-HKG with the same loads as PMCO's 777s.

They're only 6000 pounds of difference in MTOW - but it is at the extreme range of the airframe. Were the CO 777s not just totally redone, I'd think they'd want to make at least several of the GE-90 powered ones 3 class for service from Newark and Dulles.

They still have plenty of opportunity to make some of the Pratt frames 2 class... but I'd think that some of the non-ER 777s would be just fine for 3 class service from Newark to Europe.

NS
 
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 11):

Interesting point, in the case of HKG PMUA's 744 flew JFK-HKG, and UA seems to employ the 744 to HKG v the 777 anyway. I expect EWR-HKG to go 744 in not too longOther ultra long hauls are anothre issue (eg BOM).

As far as I remember the JFK-HKG route PMUA operated back in 2001 have huge restriction on load, so much that it made the route unprofitable. From what I heard even ORD-HKG is pushing on the range of the 744.

I don't see UA operate anything other than the PMCO 777 on the EWR-HKG route with its current fleet.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:43 am

They aren't going to use 2 class 777's on TransPac flights from SFO/LAX to Asia. It's their biggest premium market atm. They will move to maximize that revenue any way possible.
 
washingtonian
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 11):
in the case of HKG PMUA's 744 flew JFK-HKG, and UA seems to employ the 744 to HKG v the 777 anyway

As mentioned, with severe operating restrictions.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
I hope that even when all the domestic 763s and 777s are converted that there will still be a decent amount of repositioning flights.

There will inevitably be many repositioning flights, and even if there is not widebody flights, there will be a ridiculous amount of hub-to-hub flights. Look at SFO-ORD now!

Quoting gigneil (Reply 14):


They still have plenty of opportunity to make some of the Pratt frames 2 class

I'm pretty sure the press release said they are going ahead with converting the rest of the Pratt frames to 3-classes.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 14):
but I'd think that some of the non-ER 777s would be just fine for 3 class service from Newark to Europe.

Sure, just like they are today on Dulles to Europe. I guess it boils down to the question of what routes from Newark warrant 3-class service at the expense of 3-class service from IAD? Some easy ones: Take a 3-class 777 off of IAD-FCO. Maybe even off of IAD-GRU. Same for the 3-class 767s: IAD-Accra/Lagos does not 3 classes.

It really is amazing the flexibility that they have, because moving a 3-class 777 off of a route doesn't mean it has to go to a 2-class 777. Between the 757 international fleet, and 2-class 767s and 777s, and 3-class 767 and 777s (ALL WITH LIE FLAT SEATS SOON!), they have INCREDIBLE flexibility.
 
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:33 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
A lot of the speculation depends on the 762 plans, if the plan is to rapidly phase out the remaining 8 762s by next Summer then a big chunk of these newly configured 763s will go to those routes:

I did not realize the (CO?) 762s were being taken out of service. Would this also be the same fate of the 764 (as well? What is the reasoning for getting rid of the 762? They dont seem terribly old.

Tom
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seabosdca
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 18):
What is the reasoning for getting rid of the 762?

They are heavy for the number of passengers they can carry, so their economics are not competitive with other international types anymore. They don't cost appreciably less than a 763 to fly.

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 18):
Would this also be the same fate of the 764 (as well?

Definitely not. The 764 is still very competitive.

Also, we don't yet know for sure that the 762s will be sold. We just know that they are not getting upgraded to flat beds in J like the rest of the widebody fleet.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:52 am

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 18):
I did not realize the (CO?) 762s were being taken out of service. Would this also be the same fate of the 764 (as well? What is the reasoning for getting rid of the 762? They dont seem terribly old.

The 764 is not going anywhere. The 762, while fairly new in airplane years, suffers from a high CASM. Basically it costs the same to operate the 762 as it does the larger 763, but with fewer seats.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
Also, we don't yet know for sure that the 762s will be sold. We just know that they are not getting upgraded to flat beds in J like the rest of the widebody fleet.

They've sold two this year, so they are open to offers.
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LAXintl
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:45 pm

Look for the 2-class 763s to primarily serve PMCO routes ex EWR. From a staffing point of view will be interesting as UA will have to commit to possibly opening a satellite base or something to staff such flying.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 7):
I also wonder if they'll ever fully integrate the 777 fleets such that the PMCO 777s with GE engines will be flown all over the network, or if they'll try to keep them in one or two cities.

Not fully until crews are cross trained. Right not moving a PMCO plane would mean a PMCO crew would have to go along with it. Once crews a single group and have the differences training, then it will be much easier to move aircraft around the network.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 8):
I can't help but believe they will spread them out at least a little. Those max weight 777-200ERs are needed to Asia, including Kuwait and Dubai.

Might makesense to use the slight MTOW bump the CO birds offer, but 3-class premium cabin 777 are still very much required on several markets so the 2-class CO birds are less then ideal from then end.

Quoting ein105 (Reply 10):
What kind of configuration will/are these two class 767s going to be fitted with?

Planned config is C30Y184 of which 49 are Y+
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washingtonian
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):

Look for the 2-class 763s to primarily serve PMCO routes ex EWR.

If this is the case, then it will be primarily replacing the handful of 762 routes out of EWR and some 757 routes.
 
atlflyer
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:03 pm

Will these 763s get updated overhead bins, etc?
 
matt777
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
EWR-1 MUC- MXP 1- GRU 1-
IAH-EZE 1- GRU 1-

Actually the South-american flights need 2 aircraft to operate daily (night flights both ways)
So to replace the 762 with 763:
EWR-MUC 1
EWR-MXP 1
EWR-GRU 2
IAH-GRU 2
IAH-EZE 2
+1 spare = 9 763.aircraft.
Hence 14-9= there are 5 aircraft available to replace or to expand to other routes.
I personally believe EWR-IST is on the way for 2012.

Anyway I made what it might look like the 767-300ER 30C/49Y+/135Y
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/mati777/767ual2class2.jpg
 
aznmadsci
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting matt777 (Reply 24):
+1 spare = 9 763.aircraft.

I think that spare will do IAH-LIM since it is currently on a domestic 763 that will be part of the upgraded 763s. Otherwise it could go back to a PMCO 753.
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drerx7
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:54 pm

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 25):
Otherwise it could go back to a PMCO 753.

Not gonna happen - the cargo they carry is why they upgraded to a 763 anyway.
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CO 757-300
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:41 am

i was expecting TXL to be one of the first routes to be upgraded to a 2 class 763, however looking at the CO timetable, the 757 is history as of november 13, when it goes to a 762, then on march 24, CO96/97 goes to a 767-400 from then on out. quite a jump in capacity! this looks like the end of EWR-TXL being one of the world's longest 757 flights.
the new UA must see big potential in the berlin market once the new airport is up and running, and especially now that DL is out of the market.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 27):
i was expecting TXL to be one of the first routes to be upgraded to a 2 class 763, however looking at the CO timetable, the 757 is history as of november 13, when it goes to a 762, then on march 24, CO96/97 goes to a 767-400 from then on out. quite a jump in capacity! this looks like the end of EWR-TXL being one of the world's longest 757 flights.
the new UA must see big potential in the berlin market once the new airport is up and running, and especially now that DL is out of the market.

The 762 has been placed on TXL in winter due to headwinds for a couple of years. The upgrade to 764 looks nice, but the 764 and 2 class 763ER will be pretty interchangeable (about 20 more seats in the 764) when the crews are merged. I think ideally the route could run with 764 in summer and 763 in winter when the smoke clears on merged crews.
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting ein105 (Reply 10):
I wonder will they be used on sone routes that CO Currently operates two daily 757s on, like DUB and MAN?

To replace 2 757s with one 763 would be a large cut in capacity and, frankly, I can't see it happening.

However, don't forget that MAN (and I presume others) go down to 1 daily in winter. Maybe 1 763 could replace 1 752 doing the winter flying, especially if demand picks up.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
If costs were no obstacle the ideal role for the 22 PMCO 777-200ERs with the GE-90s would be three class Trans-Pacific flights from LAX, SFO, ORD, IAH, EWR and IAD.

Out of interest, could the CO 777s make it from the West Coast to Australia? Looking at GCMap.com LAX-MEL is shorter than EWR-HKG, but as QF have demonstrated out of DFW headwinds can be bugger on these routes.

I ask because a while back there was speculation that UA wanted to de-link SYD-MEL and make MEL standalone. And a 2 class 777 (with Y+) would be the perfect aircraft for that route.
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gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 15):
I don't see UA operate anything other than the PMCO 777 on the EWR-HKG route with its current fleet.

I concur with that for now. Its definitely POSSIBLE that a UA 3 class plane could do it, but probably at even greater restriction.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
They aren't going to use 2 class 777's on TransPac flights from SFO/LAX to Asia. It's their biggest premium market atm. They will move to maximize that revenue any way possible.

I agree with that on some routes. Maybe not on others? They might be able to launch a few routes from SFO or LAX if they were 2 class.

IAD-NRT would be a good one to go 2 class - its often lightly loaded in the front. To be frank, IAD-FRA is pretty light in the front cabins as well. I would think that a lot of IAD routes could go 2 class no problem, sadly. I just don't think that putting a really pricey 777 on a lot of will be the choice that UA makes.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 29):
Out of interest, could the CO 777s make it from the West Coast to Australia?

Yes. Either set of airplanes could actually.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
The 762, while fairly new in airplane years, suffers from a high CASM.

Sigh I still can't get past this. I know you're right.

What about configuring them up in a high density domestic config for Hawaii/Pacific and maybe a few hub-hub? That would improve their CASM.

NS
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 29):
Out of interest, could the CO 777s make it from the West Coast to Australia? Looking at GCMap.com LAX-MEL is shorter than EWR-HKG, but as QF have demonstrated out of DFW headwinds can be bugger on these routes.

I ask because a while back there was speculation that UA wanted to de-link SYD-MEL and make MEL standalone. And a 2 class 777 (with Y+) would be the perfect aircraft for that route.



The 787 would be the better aircraft for LAX-MEL and LAX-SYD.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
What about configuring them up in a high density domestic config for Hawaii/Pacific and maybe a few hub-hub? That would improve their CASM.



Hopefully the 762's will stick around for at least two more peak Trans-Atlantic seasons, Summer 2012 and 2013, by that time they should have plenty of 787s on property to offset the 762s departure.
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gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):
The 787 would be the better aircraft for LAX-MEL and LAX-SYD.

Do you think? Is the capacity there?

UA doesn't fly to Australia empty, almost ever. And LAX has 10x weekly from time to time.


I think ultimately that will all be the domain of the A350.

NS
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
What about configuring them up in a high density domestic config for Hawaii/Pacific and maybe a few hub-hub? That would improve their CASM.

Thats why you have 757s. A higher density 762 is still going to be a dog compared to a 757 with almost the same capacity.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 32):
Do you think? Is the capacity there?
UA doesn't fly to Australia empty, almost ever. And LAX has 10x weekly from time to time.

Yes planes might be full, but how much profit does it generate?

From comments by Smisek that Australia is a tough market, UA could probably shed Y class traffic and improve earnings with a smaller config.
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting deltamartin (Reply 1):
ARN, CPH and OSL would be likely aswell I guess.

Given the large Scandinavian population in the upper midwest, I would think ORD-CPH, ORD-ARN -- or even ORD-HEL -- would sell out.

Perhaps even with reconfigured 762's which can carry many more passengers then CO has them set up for.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:37 pm

I think it's fantastic UA is going forward with this project. However, I disagree with the uers that say that these reconfigured 763s are bound for EWR. Already 3 class 763s and 777s on UA are headed to EWR for the ZRH and BRU flights. I think EWR needs the F cabin more than some like to actually believe. I think these 763s would be perfect candidates for additional ORD and IAD Euro routings. Perhaps routes like IAD to MAN, DME, FCO or MAD. Remember, while EWR will likely be switched up as it's role with the UA network, it isn't the center of the universe. Other hubs will get love too.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
There are these 14 reconfigured 767-300s as well as 6 787-8s coming aboard in 2012, so lots of possibilities for new flying even if UA decides to retire the remaining 762s.

There is not one piece of evidenace that proves UA will be retiring the CO 762s all at once. I guarantee you they will be around next summer for some very niche routings.

Quoting tpaewr (Thread starter):
Or maybe something out of left field? EWR-DKR-JNB (CO tried this with WO M11s in the mid-90s)

CO never had M11s. Maybe you are thinking of DL out of Kennedy?

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 5):
I also expect them to replace some of the 3-class 763s out of IAD and ORD so that premium-heavy routes out of Newark could get 3-class 767s. We're going to see lots of shifting going around!

Agreed!

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 15):
I don't see UA operate anything other than the PMCO 777 on the EWR-HKG route with its current fleet.

Does anyone know how EWR-HKG actually performs? If it's a weak performer, couldn't they just route pax via the ORD or SFO hubs?

Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 27):
i was expecting TXL to be one of the first routes to be upgraded to a 2 class 763, however looking at the CO timetable, the 757 is history as of november 13,

That's a good thing. EWR-TXL should be a 767 year round.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 15):
I don't see UA operate anything other than the PMCO 777 on the EWR-HKG route with its current fleet.

Does anyone know how EWR-HKG actually performs? If it's a weak performer, couldn't they just route pax via the ORD or SFO hubs?

Its not a weak performer even though its at the edge of the 777's range. Asia is premium heavy and if the PMUA 777's can make the route, their three class configuration would be ideal. However, IIRC the UA frames don't quite have the performance of the CO ones. Given this route is at the edge of the 777's range, it may stay with a CO frame for performance reasons until they get something like the 789.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
I think these 763s would be perfect candidates for additional ORD and IAD Euro routings.

You might be right, and I have suggested that as a probability in the past for sure. I could easily see that happening.

NS
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 18):

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
A lot of the speculation depends on the 762 plans, if the plan is to rapidly phase out the remaining 8 762s by next Summer then a big chunk of these newly configured 763s will go to those routes:

I did not realize the (CO?) 762s were being taken out of service. Would this also be the same fate of the 764 (as well? What is the reasoning for getting rid of the 762? They dont seem terribly old.

Tom

It's not that simple. CO ALPA has already filed a Scope violation regarding the sale of these aircraft and the arbitration hearing has already begun. From what I've heard, after losing the first Scope arbitration, CO is taking this one very seriously (i.e., numerous witnesses/experts, lots of testimony) and so the hearing couldn't be completed in the days allotted. More hearings are set for October, IIRC.

The crux of the matter is that the CO pilot contract prevents a reduction in wide-body aircraft in the event of a merger. I believe one CO 767-200 has already been removed from service, so CO is already in violation of the pilot contract (if ALPA is correct).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 15):
I don't see UA operate anything other than the PMCO 777 on the EWR-HKG route with its current fleet.

I would agree with the 777, but I am of the view that HKG warrant F as well. So if the PMUA birds cannot do it, do you think they might reconfigure a CO 777?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):
The 787 would be the better aircraft for LAX-MEL and LAX-SYD

Unless they up the frquency thats a lot of capacity lost, those 744s are packed to the gills on those routes.

Those 763 IMHO will be primarily based out of EWR and IAD and ploughing those route to Europe and I would expext Germany to see some increases in capacity as a result.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 39):

Unless they up the frquency thats a lot of capacity lost, those 744s are packed to the gills on those routes.

Those 763 IMHO will be primarily based out of EWR and IAD and ploughing those route to Europe and I would expext Germany to see some increases in capacity as a result.

No question that they are going to be Atlantic based aircraft. I can't see them going Pacific from SFO or LAX, other than maybe a run or two to HNL.

I don't know what they are going to do about hub to hub routings. It totally sucks that there will be a reduction, instead of additions in these markets. Perhaps more frequency is going to be added on CO aircraft between hubs. UA elites get you're firey torches ready -- upgrades are going to get harder to come by.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:53 pm

Perhaps as a result of mix and matching that could happen.

From IAD, they do a pretty thorough job to FRA and MUC. I'd kill for TXL from IAD. That'd be a just fine 2 class route.

From EWR, I think there's MANY opportunities to increase. MUC needs to go 3 class 763. TXL could stay a 764 or become a 2 class 763. FRA needs more than one daily 777 - a pair of 3 class 763s or 3 class 777s I believe. STR goes out full and is overbooked from EWR nearly every day of the week - it could be a 763 or a 764. HAM goes out very full everyday too.

IAH needs a 777 back to FRA - that 764 gets quite full. I'd also think two flights is probably very very wise, a pair of 763s. I'd even enjoy a pair of 787s on this route (but it violates my 3 class rule).

MUC and FRA need to be 3 class from across the system, in my professional medical opinion. The connecting opportunities from both on the far side lend themselves to a 3 class plan, I think. I could be wrong. I don't think TXL needs to be 3 class. STR and HAM I don't know enough about, but the PBTs indicate that they go out pretty full in front today on the 75.

NS
 
cslusarc
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:46 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 41):
FRA needs more than one daily 777

Do you think there is any possibility of LH moving capacity from JFK to EWR to strengthen the EWR hub?
--cslusarc from YWG
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:54 pm

I have a lot less insight to the dynamics of what LH might do - I have always thought that makes sense, but I also don't know a ton about LH's O/D business to JFK....

NS
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 34):
Given the large Scandinavian population in the upper midwest, I would think ORD-CPH, ORD-ARN -- or even ORD-HEL -- would sell out.

SAS operates both ARN and CPH from ORD already.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
However, I disagree with the uers that say that these reconfigured 763s are bound for EWR

You can certainly have such opinions, however the tea-leaf readers such as myself have seen enough bits and pieces through various statements, moves that point to EWR being a focal point of such planes including commentary of potential need for future subsidiary-UA 767 satellite crew base at EWR to infer there is a high likelihood of such.
Remember much of the network planning is being done by former CO'er who have intimate awareness of the holes in the former CO network, and were the ones that drove the decision to convert the 14-frames from domestic Hawaii birds to 2-Class Intl.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
There is not one piece of evidence that proves UA will be retiring the CO 762s all at once. I guarantee you they will be around next summer for some very niche routings.

You are right, however with the opportunity more tails would be shed. I have no clue when/if this opportunity could present itself.
In a worst case scenario, as outline in an earnings call, a flat out parking of the fleet could happen if their economics become unbearable.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
Does anyone know how EWR-HKG actually performs? If it's a weak performer, couldn't they just route pax via the ORD or SFO hubs?

I believe its being reduced to 5 or 6 daily at some point over the winter. I saw a list of cancellation dates.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 39):
Unless they up the frquency thats a lot of capacity lost, those 744s are packed to the gills on those routes.

The question is still out there - does any of the mega 744 capacity to Australia generate a sufficient return?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tommy767
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
In a worst case scenario, as outline in an earnings call, a flat out parking of the fleet could happen if their economics become unbearable.

That would have to be if fuel climbs to unseen sky high level. CO at the moment have no aircraft to replace them with, so for right now they are stuck with them. Next year could get interesting with the 787 deliveries but even so I wonder if they'd start IAH-SCL with a 762 for the time being.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
I believe its being reduced to 5 or 6 daily at some point over the winter. I saw a list of cancellation dates.

Makes me wonder if it actually is worth it. Before CO merged with UA, I could totally see why they would have EWR-HKG. Now that they have the merger synergies in order, it might make sense to route pax through SFO or ORD. I'm sure with the high fuel prices combined with the insanely long routing, the economics on that route could be shaky.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
EWR being a focal point of such planes including commentary of potential need for future subsidiary-UA 767 satellite crew base at EWR to infer there is a high likelihood of such

A UA 767 satellite base is just an a.net rumor at this time though, correct?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
SAS operates both ARN and CPH from ORD already.

That and US-Scandinavia routings aren't all that they are cracked up to be in terms of profits. Just ask Delta.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 38):
The crux of the matter is that the CO pilot contract prevents a reduction in wide-body aircraft in the event of a merger.

They sold two 767-200s, but are acquiring 50 787s and 25 A350s. What's the problem?

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
Quoting tpaewr (Thread starter):
Or maybe something out of left field? EWR-DKR-JNB (CO tried this with WO M11s in the mid-90s)

CO never had M11s. Maybe you are thinking of DL out of Kennedy?

No he's right, CO had World Airways operating some routes from EWR around '95-'96 with MD-11s to Tel Aviv and other destinations (Dublin?). It didn't last long.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
Does anyone know how EWR-HKG actually performs? If it's a weak performer, couldn't they just route pax via the ORD or SFO hubs?

Lol, that's not very competitive with CX's four daily flights. According to conference calls with investors during the latest quarterly reports CO's Pacific routes are some of their best performers. EWR-HKG, along with EWR-NRT, will most likely go to two daily 787s or A350s when they arrive.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 39):
Unless they up the frquency thats a lot of capacity lost, those 744s are packed to the gills on those routes.

Negative, UA wants yield improvement. Which is why they ordered the A350 to replace 747-400s and not something like the 747-8, 777-300ER or A380.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 39):
Those 763 IMHO will be primarily based out of EWR and IAD and ploughing those route to Europe and I would expext Germany to see some increases in capacity as a result.

EWR and IAH.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 45):
CO at the moment have no aircraft to replace them with, so for right now they are stuck with them.

14 UA 767-300s.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 45):
Makes me wonder if it actually is worth it. Before CO merged with UA, I could totally see why they would have EWR-HKG. Now that they have the merger synergies in order, it might make sense to route pax through SFO or ORD.

If that's your philosophy then why not advocate that all Trans-Atlantic routes from LAX, SFO, ORD etc.. be routed through EWR? And all Latin America routes through IAH.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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dutchflyboi
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 46):
They sold two 767-200s, but are acquiring 50 787s and 25 A350s. What's the problem?

Part of the problem is that according to the contract the A/C is suppose to remain the same, including what was on order.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 46):
No he's right, CO had World Airways operating some routes from EWR around '95-'96 with MD-11s to Tel Aviv and other destinations (Dublin?). It didn't last long.

No that is not correct. I was based there during that time frame and World did not operate TLV or DUB on behalf of Continental. Service to TLV started on August 1st 1999

[Edited 2011-08-31 14:18:18]
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 45):
A UA 767 satellite base is just an a.net rumor at this time though, correct?

No not for me. I've noted two separate United sources for such a possible potential.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 46):
No he's right, CO had World Airways operating some routes from EWR around '95-'96 with MD-11s to Tel Aviv and other destinations (Dublin?). It didn't last long.

World had a EWR-TLV and EWR-JNB run. (JNB might have had a tech-stop?)

Had a colleague that was a contractor for WO at the time and spent time down setting up the JNB end.

I even recall flying on a WO MD-11 ferry flight at the time, and there was stacks of OnePass sign-up pamphlets in the cabin!
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
washingtonian
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RE: UA's "new" 2-cabin Int'l 763

Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
IAD-NRT would be a good one to go 2 class - its often lightly loaded in the front.

I wonder if they'll decide that it's easier to just offer First on all Asia flights..If not, then I could see IAD-NRT going to PMCO 777s.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
I would think that a lot of IAD routes could go 2 class no problem, sadly.

Of course, but let's remember that ALL of the routes out of Newark until recently were 2-class and CO did just fine that way. While Newark probably has more 3-class demand than Dulles, the majority of Newark routes probably only warrant 2-class birds.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
I just don't think that putting a really pricey 777 on a lot of will be the choice that UA makes.

They've done that for almost two decades now from Dulles and it seemed to work quite well for them.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
However, I disagree with the uers that say that these reconfigured 763s are bound for EWR.

I still don't think there is a "grand plan" for them. They'll be used to upgauge 757s out of Newark, to replace some 3-class routes out of IAD and ORD (freeing up the 3-class birds for Newark), etc. 14 763s is a lot of flexibility, but it's nothing like the number of 787s and A-350s that United will receive in the coming years.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 35):
. I think these 763s would be perfect candidates for additional ORD and IAD Euro routings.

There aren't that many routes to add from Dulles...IAD-DME & MAD could certainly get the 2-class 767s, and perhaps IAD-FCO should have 2-class, but the few routes that United might add in the immediate future could be done with 757s (United Kingdom, Ireland, Spain routes)

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
You can certainly have such opinions, however the tea-leaf readers such as myself have seen enough bits and pieces through various statements, moves that point to EWR being a focal point of such planes including commentary of potential need for future subsidiary-UA 767 satellite crew base at EWR to infer there is a high likelihood of such.
Remember much of the network planning is being done by former CO'er who have intimate awareness of the holes in the former CO network, and were the ones that drove the decision to convert the 14-frames from domestic Hawaii birds to 2-Class Intl.

If that is the case, what do you expect from Newark? Simply upgauging PMCO 757 routes? The fact the Newark is going to get a 767 base does not mean it will be the 2-class birds going there though...They could still swap them with ORD & IAD 3-class 763s.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 45):
I'm sure with the high fuel prices combined with the insanely long routing, the economics on that route could be shaky.

Especially when competing with 4X Cathay 77Ws!

Quoting STT757 (Reply 46):
According to conference calls with investors during the latest quarterly reports CO's Pacific routes are some of their best performers.

Perhaps after the merger things will be different.

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