qfa787380
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MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:01 am

A bit of a strange article and I have no idea how MH knows that nobody is making money with their 380s. They are lumped with old guzzling 744s or 772s, which are probably a bit small for some of their routes. Sounds like they aren't too keen to get the 380 into service, anyway and could be a bit worried about filling the beast. Sounds like the 77W might have been ideal for them but MH have ben very slow to order 787/350 and 77W.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/b...ing-alliance-a380s-as-losses-mount
 
aaexecplat
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:20 am

Surely, with respect to the OW entry, OW partners could share some of the initial costs with MH?
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:35 am

G'day

No prob, just reassign the A 380'ies to Air Asia X, put 800 seats into them et voilà - problem solved. The already painted tail can be used for a new livery symbolizing the new brotherhood of the airlines. They may even decide to jointly operate the aircraft, Air Asia X using the lower level and Malaysian using the upper level in a plush premium layout that beats anything Qantas may have in mind.   

Tony's friend John Leahy over in Too Loose surely can accommodate a short term reconfiguring of the interior, this may be facilitated by the simultaneous ordering of a few dozen A 350'ies for Malaysian and top up on the number of 320 NEO's to cover for the needs of Malaysian.

My   

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:43 am

Their source seems remarkably well informed.

Nobody is making any money with the A380. This is massive. Potential showstopper for the A380 business case.

SQ unable to make money on LHR, CDG, LAX and SYD etc with them. When they were making money before? This is a catastrophe. No wonder they've taken a load more 77Ws. Will be great to have the 77Ws back at LHR!

EK - the world's most profitable airline - not making money on any of their large number of trunk/flagship routes with the A380? Wow. What are they going to do with all those redundant A380s once they are replaced with smaller twins that the airline can and does make money with? 90+ A380s sitting in the desert doing nothing? Ouch. That could destroy EK.

QF - seems the stories that they are getting rid of their A380s as they are unprofitable might be true. First they almost lose one when the engines blew up and then they defer their last batch. Expect to see the return of the 744 on SYD-SIN-LHR before too much longer. Must be really disappointing for them to have such a heralded and vaunted new plane turn out to be such a white elephant.

AF - appears they too cannot make money by replacing the 744 on routes like YYZ and JFK etc with an A380. Maybe the 744s might stick around.

I fully expect TG to finally cancel their A380s and for Skymark to take a long hard look at their daft order as well. If SQ or EK cannot make any money with an A380 what chance do they or VN or Air Austral etc stand? None, i'd say.

I wonder if some bright spark might launch a conversion kit for the A380s about to flood the second hand market to turn them into cheap housing for poor and impoverished regions? Or a cafe/hotel sort of thing perhaps? Maybe then as a Starbucks they might make some money!

Gawd this news has really made me take a long hard look at myself and how i view the commercial aviation markets, it really has. I've been such a fool.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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frigatebird
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:47 am

Quoting qfa787380 (Thread starter):
A bit of a strange article and I have no idea how MH knows that nobody is making money with their 380s.

Neither do I. Certainly not after SQ's decision to replace the last LHR route operated by a 77W with an A380.


Quoting qfa787380 (Thread starter):
They are lumped with old guzzling 744s or 772s, which are probably a bit small for some of their routes. Sounds like they aren't too keen to get the 380 into service, anyway and could be a bit worried about filling the beast.

MH, like TG, probably foresees a problem filling the A380 on a year round basis. An A380 will be a huge moneymaker for an airline, but only if you can fill it with enough premium seats.

Airbus has started production of their first A380 though, so I expect them to send MH a huge bill if they really are going to defer delivery. Hope it doesn't come to this, though.
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qf002
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:54 am

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 3):

Just asking, sarcasm or serious??
 
Burkhard
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 3):
SQ unable to make money on LHR, CDG, LAX and SYD etc with them. When they were making money before? This is a catastrophe. No wonder they've taken a load more 77Ws. Will be great to have the 77Ws back at LHR!

EK - the world's most profitable airline - not making money on any of their large number of trunk/flagship routes with the A380? Wow. What are they going to do with all those redundant A380s once they are replaced with smaller twins that the airline can and does make money with? 90+ A380s sitting in the desert doing nothing? Ouch. That could destroy EK.

QF - seems the stories that they are getting rid of their A380s as they are unprofitable might be true. First they almost lose one when the engines blew up and then they defer their last batch. Expect to see the return of the 744 on SYD-SIN-LHR before too much longer. Must be really disappointing for them to have such a heralded and vaunted new plane turn out to be such a white elephant.

AF - appears they too cannot make money by replacing the 744 on routes like YYZ and JFK etc with an A380. Maybe the 744s might stick around.



You forgot LH on your list, which has been brought near bankruptcy with their 8 A380 now. This article is written for a purpose, not for any facts.
 
2175301
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:02 pm

I am not so sure I believe that "no one" is making money with the A380. That is not to say that I do not doubt that some of the current operators are not having problem making money with them. The A380 is a great plane for certain routes. The question has always been "how many routes?" (and I admit that I have always been on the low number or routes side versus a very large number of routes). I had many years ago predicted that it would probably take at least 75 and perhaps 100 A380 in service to start to see the shakeout on routes. Could the recent announcements indicate that it really only has taken about 50 in service to start to see where they are not profitable.

On the other hand - this may be a case where a few airlines purchased more for image than anything (similar to many early 747 sales); and those airlines are fessing up early that they do not have the economics to support a plane for image purposes that they cannot routinely fill at reasonable fares.

I suspect it will take another year or two to tell what is really going on (i.e.; my earlier 75 -100 delivery estimate).

Have a great day,
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:05 pm

Well if MAS is deferring A380s because nobody is making any money with them worldwide - even on trunk/flagship routes - then this is a huge deal. They would take them if people were making money with them, surely? I mean, how can you lose money on LHR-KUL? Its a goldmine!

I mean, MAS know more about the A380 and the airline business than I do. If they say something then its probably not complete rubbish right?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
parapente
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:13 pm

Just asking, sarcasm or serious??

Oh Pleeeaaase!
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:32 pm

G'day

At least there is one good thing about all those A 380'ies ending up on the scrap yard - they can be recycled.

I do not see beer cans being made in CFRP anytime in the near future.


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
Part147
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:34 pm

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 3):
Gawd this news has really made me take a long hard look at myself and how i view the commercial aviation markets, it really has. I've been such a fool.

So a single story has caused you to take a long hard look at yourself and how you view the whole market? How odd! Maybe it's time for you to consider a career change  

I read the linked story AND the comments underneath and came to a very different conclusion - MAS bought A380s for the prestige rather than buying to fill their own needs, their business model is not competitive and they are loosing market share because they appear have poor management and excess staff issues - slowly bleeding them dry...

"some exco officials are leery about whether it can fill up the plane on its lucrative Kuala Lumpur-London route" [is that because the DEMAND isn't there or because they charge TOO MUCH per seat compared to their competitors?]
They aren’t too sure about the A380s because no one has made money using it yet in the competitive routes" [whose 'no-one'? Just because MAS hasn't, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else]

...and some comments that jumps out (most of them are critical of MAS BTW, none mention the A380!)...

Mattyboy · 8 hours ago
MAS needs to get competitive if they want to win business back - I need to go to the UK next June, looking at MAS they want to charge me Rm18,570 to fly in economy on an ageing 747, I can book Emirates on the same dates for Rm4000 flying on brand new A380s, which do you think I will be booking?!?

GERARD · 10 hours ago
If Tony Fernandes has a free hand, the only way is to cut 10,000 jobs and the corruption that is so ingrained into MAS managenment. Question is : will he be given a free hand? Malaysians can tell you what has to be done for MAS to recover. Its a no brainer! AirAsia has 8,000 staff and already bigger than MAS. MAS on the other hand has 20,000 staff. This does not jive indeed. Start there then tackle the catering company and the rest.
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:45 pm

G'day

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
I do not see beer cans being made in CFRP anytime in the near future.

Err,

Earlier this month in India I saw an ad of Foster's advertising beer in PET bottles Grrrrr.      

OK, PET is not CFRP, but then.....


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
scouseflyer
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:45 pm

Isn't it a bit late for this as at least 2 of MAS A380s are already at TLS being built?
 
parapente
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:04 pm

MAS needs to get competitive if they want to win business back - I need to go to the UK next June, looking at MAS they want to charge me Rm18,570 to fly in economy on an ageing 747, I can book Emirates on the same dates for Rm4000 flying on brand new A380s, which do you think I will be booking?!?

If you are going to play with the big boys you will need (much) more than the same plane.

And if you can't -( they can't),then you do what every other airline is doing in similasr situations and downsizing ,offering "non stop" great scheduling (times) and a fantastic service thus creaming off the high yeild element of the traffic mix.

You have to decide and do one job (very) well.

Comming up with some of the most stupid comments I have ever heard will not resolve their problems.
 
col
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:13 pm

One airline that should not be operating the 380 is MH. Their Management is the worse, bleating, clueless group in the industry. They have destroyed MH, and now they are an airline incapable of operating a 380. They have a monopoly to LHR, yet many people go South and use SQ. If they did not have the 380 on order, then they would be complaining that SQ did, and that is not fair    . Come on Tony, sort these goof balls out.

We have a saying here, "If MH made Submarines, the sky would be full of them"

Quoting qfa787380 (Thread starter):
A bit of a strange article and I have no idea how MH knows that nobody is making money with their 380s.

Not strange, it is MH. And as they do not know how to run their own airline, how do they know how other's are doing?
 
jfk777
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:26 pm

Not long ago on this board there was an analysis of how much money AA lost from Miami to Buenos Aires with 2 777 flights daily. It seems that same genius is claiming Singapore Airlines is loosing their shirts flying A380's to LHR, Right ?
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:36 pm

Seems an article lacking any real substance.

Wouldn't read into it much, given the sweeping statements made with no evidence. I just love the use of 'internal sources' that seem to lack any idea of the reality  
 
airbazar
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:38 pm

MAS's business model has always been the same: Copy SQ even if it makes no sense at all.
The only reason they ordered A380's is because SQ ordered A380's.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
Not long ago on this board there was an analysis of how much money AA lost from Miami to Buenos Aires with 2 777 flights daily. It seems that same genius is claiming Singapore Airlines is loosing their shirts flying A380's to LHR, Right ?

Haha... How much would you bet that the person writing the article is a spotty teenager that did well on spelling and grammar tests at school?

Well considering SQ are starting a 3rd daily rotation with the A380 to LHR in the autumn, I think they are laughing all the way to the bank.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 3):
Their source seems remarkably well informed.

Nobody is making any money with the A380. This is massive. Potential showstopper for the A380 business case.

SQ unable to make money on LHR, CDG, LAX and SYD etc with them. When they were making money before? This is a catastrophe. No wonder they've taken a load more 77Ws. Will be great to have the 77Ws back at LHR!

EK - the world's most profitable airline - not making money on any of their large number of trunk/flagship routes with the A380? Wow. What are they going to do with all those redundant A380s once they are replaced with smaller twins that the airline can and does make money with? 90+ A380s sitting in the desert doing nothing? Ouch. That could destroy EK.

QF - seems the stories that they are getting rid of their A380s as they are unprofitable might be true. First they almost lose one when the engines blew up and then they defer their last batch. Expect to see the return of the 744 on SYD-SIN-LHR before too much longer. Must be really disappointing for them to have such a heralded and vaunted new plane turn out to be such a white elephant.

AF - appears they too cannot make money by replacing the 744 on routes like YYZ and JFK etc with an A380. Maybe the 744s might stick around.

I fully expect TG to finally cancel their A380s and for Skymark to take a long hard look at their daft order as well. If SQ or EK cannot make any money with an A380 what chance do they or VN or Air Austral etc stand? None, i'd say.

I wonder if some bright spark might launch a conversion kit for the A380s about to flood the second hand market to turn them into cheap housing for poor and impoverished regions? Or a cafe/hotel sort of thing perhaps? Maybe then as a Starbucks they might make some money!

Gawd this news has really made me take a long hard look at myself and how i view the commercial aviation markets, it really has. I've been such a fool.

Haha best use of sarcasm I have seen for a long time... Think you have earned my "respect".
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
LAXintl
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:00 pm

Well the MAS earnings numbers are out - and the company indeed posted a large loss in the last quarter of 527 million ringgit (USD $178 million). Management affirmed they now expect full year loss being "though year".

During the earnings conference they stated their long-haul services to Europe, US and Japan regions were "key-challenges"
It was also mentioned they would park 3 747s 3 737s by the end of the September quarter "due to the difficult environment"


Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 1):
Surely, with respect to the OW entry, OW partners could share some of the initial costs with MH?


I'm not sure why you expect existing OW partners to fund the integration of other members?

Cost to join is the primarily burden of each respective new member. Other members have some small cost themselves including in the IT and signage arena, but the heavy lifting and money spent is by new members to ensure they meet all the various qualification criteria.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Stitch
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:06 pm

MH and TG do seem to have government influence so I could see the A380 purchases being driven more on political and prestige grounds than economic. But they were also ordered back in 2003 (MH) and 2004 (TG) during the start of an economic boom so there could have been legitimate economic reasons to add them to replace high-density 747-400s since the original plan would have had those planes arriving during the boom and not after the crash, as they are now.

It looks now like "mismanagement" at both carriers have made operating an A380-800 uncompetitive - especially against competitors whose management have made operating an A380-800 competitive. Their claims that nobody is making money with an A380-800 is a bald-faced lie and they know it, but they need a reason to explain their own incompetence and easier to blame the product than themselves. Or their hubris is such that they feel that if they cannot make money operating an A380, than nobody can.

TG appears to have addressed this in part by ordering 777-300ERs to replace their 747-400 fleet, keeping the A380-800s for the highest-density and most prestigious routes. MH has almost half the 747 fleet that TG does (10 vs 18 per Wiki), however, so I am not sure what a fleet of 4 777-300ERs would do for them (with the 6 A380-800s they already have). With hindsight being 20-20, they should have ordered the 777-300ER in 2004 and not the A380-800, but they didn't and now they're effectively stuck with them.
 
behramjee
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 8):
Well if MAS is deferring A380s because nobody is making any money with them worldwide - even on trunk/flagship routes - then this is a huge deal. They would take them if people were making money with them, surely? I mean, how can you lose money on LHR-KUL? Its a goldmine!

I mean, MAS know more about the A380 and the airline business than I do. If they say something then its probably not complete rubbish right? Nobody is making any money with the A380. This is massive. Potential showstopper for the A380 business case. SQ unable to make money on LHR, CDG, LAX and SYD etc with them. When they were making money before? This is a catastrophe. No wonder they've taken a load more 77Ws. Will be great to have the 77Ws back at LHR!

Well it depends on how one views the profitability of an airline of which there are 3 levels:

Level 1.....variable cost of flight operation which includes fuel, maintenence, catering, insurance, navigation, traffic handling etc etc

Level 2.....Level 1 + direct fixed costs i.e. aircraft ownership / lease cost etc

Level 3.....Level 1 + 2 + indirect fixed costs i.e. staff salaries, office space rent and other forms of expenditures

Professionally run airlines that are privately owned such as SQ, LH, AF, BA and QF look at profitability from a Level 3 perspective which is your Net Profit. Level 1 is your Operational Profit which is totally misleading in press releases. Emirates on the whole makes a profit at Level 3 as EMIRATES GROUP and not EMIRATES AIRLINE (passenger side only).

Therefore taking into account the above mentioned information, I can guarantee you that even though MH might be seeing high S/F % on its LHR-KUL route along with CDG-KUL and FRA-KUL, I guarantee you that it does not make a profit at Level 2 nor Level 3 on any of its long haul routes to Europe and Australia. It may make a profit at Level 1 but that a majority of airlines worldwide do so on most routes but at Level 2 no chance for MH. In fact, I am willing to bet that in 2011 year to date (JAN-JUL), MH did not make a profit even at Level 1 on any of its Australian, UK and EU routes because of the high cost of fuel this year versus 2010.

Now as far as SQ is concerned, I am a bit more optimistic because their yields in all cabins + cargo are very high and on a Level 3 basis, one can forecast that only LHR and SYD make a profit. However at Level 2, FRA and CDG would be but definitely not the one stop LAX service due to the high cost of operations involved!

With regards to Etihad, I can bet you that even at Level 1 with their A345s and A346s, they dont make a profit flying long haul to SYD, MEL, JFK and ORD in 2011. Even with their B 77Ws to YYZ, they dont cover Level 1 !

As far as EK is concerned, the only routes likely to be profitable at Level 2 on their A380s are Jeddah and London Heathrow only. It is impossible for anyone to convince me that at Level 2 without network benefit, they can make a profit flying daily A380s to Australia and JFK.

Last but not least comes TG and its A380s. At Level 2 on their A380s not a single route will make money, not even LHR nor SYD. The only 3 routes that have a chance for TG to make a profit at Level 2 include PEK, NRT and PVG and these are medium haul routes! No long haul route can make a profit for TG at Level 2 and definitely not Level 3 as its costs are way too high + it does not have the high yield that CX or SQ can command.

As far as BA is concerned, their A380s at Level 3 have the best of making profit on JFK, LAX and HKG only as these are prime high yielding markets with a lot of F/J travel. Other routes that could make a profit at Level 2 include SFO, ORD, GRU, DXB and IAD.

Please note that these long haul flights for many airlines act more like feeder services for their short/medium haul flights which are much more profitable as they are operated with smaller, more efficient planes on a multiple daily basis which subsidizes the losses incurred in the long haul market.

Has anyone wondered why the A380 for KE/SQ/LH have so many J class seats? Its because the more premium seats you have on board, it is the only way for airlines to make a profit at Level 2 and 3 operating long haul with an A380.

Having a high S/F on a route might make you a profit at Level 1 but not at Level 2 which is the minimum measurement as the yield over here comes into the equation.
 
fcogafa
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 4):
Neither do I. Certainly not after SQ's decision to replace the last LHR route operated by a 77W with an A380.

As discussed in another thread, the actual capacity between LHR & SIN does not increase significantly as the lower density A380s with more business class replace 2 x higher density ones and 1 x B773.


I have been surprised by the capacity on the A380. After the initial press releases I expected it to be carrying a lot more pax than the B744s, but it now seems that the difference is not that big. An aircraft with 800+ capacity is being 'abused' by using the extra available space for larger seats for the higher end customers.

Whether this translates into profit depends on the amount of higher end pax they can attract.
 
fcogafa
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:19 pm



[Edited 2011-08-23 12:12:52]
 
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Stitch
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:52 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 23):
After the initial press releases I expected it to be carrying a lot more pax than the B744s, but it now seems that the difference is not that big.

It seems to be that the A380 is more efficient with similar passenger loads than the 747-400, especially on routes with strong premium cabin demand.
 
jfk777
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
TG appears to have addressed this in part by ordering 777-300ERs to replace their 747-400 fleet, keeping the A380-800s for the highest-density and most prestigious routes. MH has almost half the 747 fleet that TG does (10 vs 18 per Wiki), however, so I am not sure what a fleet of 4 777-300ERs would do for them (with the 6 A380-800s they already have). With hindsight being 20-20, they should have ordered the 777-300ER in 2004 and not the A380-800, but they didn't and now they're effectively stuck with them.

Malaysia has a history with 777's, it seems like a natural for them to buy 777-300ER's. MH has to replace all those 744 and 777-200ER with something. 787 & 77W would do well for MH.
 
qfa787380
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:55 pm

I think any of the 330/77W/787/350 would be ideal for MH. They already have the 330 and have committed to more. They need to choose probably 2 out of the 77W/787/350 at some stage IMO.
 
Upperdeck
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:43 am

Wow! All this hearsay and conjecture coming from a 'source'. Well excuse me whilst I soil my britches with despair.

Bottom line - if you can't run an airline, no plane will be profitable for you. Might as well start renting bikes.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:57 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 22):
Please note that these long haul flights for many airlines act more like feeder services for their short/medium haul flights which are much more profitable

I'm not sure how true this is. It has been reported in the past that BA's short-haul market has struggled to be profitable, whilst their long-haul routes are profitable. Furthermore, the reporting of the latest IAG results specifically mentioned stronger premium demand across the Atlantic as a factor behind BA's results. This to me would suggest that for BA, at least, the long-haul flights are the profitable ones.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 22):
as they are operated with smaller, more efficient planes on a multiple daily basis which subsidizes the losses incurred in the long haul market.

Many of the airlines you mentioned use widebody aircraft on their short and medium haul routes. Indeed, several of those airlines you mention use their low density long-haul aircraft on some short-haul routes - most notably CX.

I would hazard a guess that some of the flights in Asia are profitable because fewer daily flights are operated by larger aircraft which brings the per seat costs down. There is also the potential to carry more cargo.

Quoting qfa787380 (Thread starter):
Sounds like they aren't too keen to get the 380 into service, anyway and could be a bit worried about filling the beast.

My take on the situation is that MH were desperate to get into an alliance to increase the amount of traffic they carry. Now that they are supposedly joining oneworld, they are worried that they will not see significant gains in traffic because Qantas is looking at setting up its own premium airline - possibly based in Singapore - which may compete with MH on many routes. Not only will they not be getting the extra traffic they had hoped an alliance would bring, they may now be facing an extra competitor from one of their own alliance members.

Considering that their "flagship" London route is being downgauged from 14 x 744 to 7x 744 and 7x 772, one wonders where these 380s will be used.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 19):
Well considering SQ are starting a 3rd daily rotation with the A380 to LHR in the autumn, I think they are laughing all the way to the bank.

I am sure the 'journalist' will claim this is a ploy by SQ, hoping that the 3rd flight "make a profit to cover the loss making of the previous 2"
 
airbazar
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 23):
I have been surprised by the capacity on the A380. After the initial press releases I expected it to be carrying a lot more pax than the B744s, but it now seems that the difference is not that big. An aircraft with 800 capacity is being 'abused' by using the extra available space for larger seats for the higher end customers.

That is not at all surprising and certainly doesn't apply only to the A380. BA has 744s with as little as 290 seats only.
The size of F and J cabins have been increasing over the last 10 years (in both the number os seats and the size of the seat and pitch), and some airlines even added Y+. Combine that with largers hard products and you have fewer total seats today than a few years earlier. Today's J seats occupy more space than "yesterday's" F.

SQ First Class only 9 years ago vs. Business class today:

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aaexecplat
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
I'm not sure why you expect existing OW partners to fund the integration of other members?

Cost to join is the primarily burden of each respective new member. Other members have some small cost themselves including in the IT and signage arena, but the heavy lifting and money spent is by new members to ensure they meet all the various qualification criteria.

If the entry of MH benefited the other carriers, why wouldn't they help ease the burden? QF in particular could offload current traffic to MH especially from KUL to Europe and gain Australia traffic from KUL to Australia...and that's just one member of OW. OW frequent flyers would certainly rather see MH added with aid than see MH not added and go to a different alliance later...
 
LAXintl
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 32):
If the entry of MH benefited the other carriers, why wouldn't they help ease the burden?

Its simply not the way its done. Matter of fact if current members had to financially support entry of future members I'd say many alliances would not grow much. Matter of fact, most new carriers members must pay an entrance fee upfront.(reported €10mil for Star as an example).

Entry to an alliance has been shown to be a net positive for new members, so its rather fair for them to fund their own require enhancements similar to them funding any other internal capital expense.

At the end of the day, you are joining a club, a marketing club in this instance, and you need to pay for your membership and make sure you are compliant with the clubs requirements if you want to play with the group.
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mogandoCI
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:50 pm

maybe NH and CX were the smart ones by explicitly NOT ordering the A380 even though their hubs were absolutely prime targets for operating the whalejet ?

the novelty premium can only last so long (people choosing an A380 flight given equal pricing and service quality to "try it out").

that said, the A380 has ridiculously low CASM. if SQ is losing money left and right on it, why did they up their J seating from 2/3rds of upper deck to the entire upper deck?
 
delimit
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 32):
QF in particular could offload current traffic to MH especially from KUL to Europe and gain Australia traffic from KUL to Australia...and that's just one member of OW.
QF has decided to set up a premium Asian carrier to compete with MH instead. I doubt you will be seeing much cooperation between the two.

[Edited 2011-08-24 11:09:22]
 
ldvaviation
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:35 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 35):
QF has decided to set up a premium Asian carrier to compete with MH instead. I doubt you will be seeing much cooperation between the two.

What? QF is sponsoring MH's entry into oneworld.
 
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 36):
What? QF is sponsoring MH's entry into oneworld.

Yes, that is what makes things more confusing. Seems QF and MH have a lot to gain from MH's membership. Plus, didn't QF consider merging with MH some years ago? Anyway, there is a lot of room for cooperation between the two of them, but with QF launching a new premium Asia-based carrier a la Silk Air, it is only natural that MH is wondering if QF will really be an ally or, in reality, more of an enemy disguised as an ally.
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 35):
QF has decided to set up a premium Asian carrier to compete with MH instead. I doubt you will be seeing much cooperation between the two.

10 A320 based in , Singapore?, should hardly worry Malaysia Air. Qantas has a large Changi presence with Jetstar Asia and its namesake airline.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 37):
Yes, that is what makes things more confusing. Seems QF and MH have a lot to gain from MH's membership. Plus, didn't QF consider merging with MH some years ago? Anyway, there is a lot of room for cooperation between the two of them, but with QF launching a new premium Asia-based carrier a la Silk Air, it is only natural that MH is wondering if QF will really be an ally or, in reality, more of an enemy disguised as an ally.

MH needs more feed from Australia and Qantas needs a freindly airline to fly its passengers to Europe since QF only flies to LHR and FRA. One Stop connection sover KL will be much better then LHR connections to BA.
 
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:37 am

Guys and girls, you will find this article interesting:

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story...8/26/business/9372016&sec=business
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jacobin777
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 39):
Guys and girls, you will find this article interesting:

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story...iness

...and something to counter that:

Still expecting MAS to join oneworld as Fernandes reviews options

"On local reports from the previous day that oneworld member elect Malaysian Airlines (MAS) was re-considering its alliance membership after a management restructure following an equity swap with Tony Fernandes’s AirAsia, Mr Joyce disclosed Mr Fernandes, who gained a seat on the MAS board as part of the equity transaction, was heading the alliance review. A local report also suggested MAS would see Qantas’ forthcoming premium carrier, if based in Kuala Lumpur, as a direct competitor.

“We’re in dialogue with Tony Fernandes and the Malaysian [Airlines] team and we’re still working through those issues with them. The feedback we’ve gotten is very positive from Tony. I think he’s been given the responsibility of reviewing the oneworld membership. His view is he’d like to continue and try to do something with Qantas and British Airways and Jetstar,” Mr Joyce said."


http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...hadowed-by-change-resistance/page1
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lightsaber
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:37 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 39):

Guys and girls, you will find this article interesting:

Very, worth quoting:

"However, aviation analysts were told on Tuesday that the current MAS management was re-evaluating the decision, and that opting for membership with another alliance, SkyTeam, would serve the airline better as there would be no route overlap."


Yep. I'm not sure if it is to laugh, cry, or cheer. Skyteam actually makes some sense, but only if MH is able to land on its feet first. But they do lack a presence in the region. With QF/Jetstar, oneworld is well represented in the region. *A has SQ and TI. So I can see why Skyteam wants to tap into the region. But after reading all the comments, I did some googling. and found this pdf on customer satisfaction comparing Air Asia and MH:
http://www.academicjournals.org/ajbm...df2011/18Apr/Wong%20and%20Musa.pdf

"As both airlines have a strong reputation, Malaysian
Airlines would need to consider further enhancing its core
service, employee, and tangibles (Nejati et al., 2009;
Tsaur et al., 2002) to win over any overlapping target
customers from Air Asia. This could be carried out by
using a differentiation strategy as proposed by Nejati et
al. (2009) and Wan and Hui (2005) as well as airline
alliances and frequent flyer programmes (Nejati et al.,
2009; Tiernan et al., 2008).
"

So an alliance will help. But quick summary, NH needs to repair their reputation with customers. (It was amusing as I read all the posts, not exactly an MH fan base here...). New management, but a desire for real change to improve the customer experience while cutting costs. I wish MH luck, but I couldn't turn the airline around...

Lightsaber
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LAXintl
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:46 am

Frankly, I don't think MH knows if they are coming our going at the moment with the management shakeup.

While Tony Fernandes might be a voice of reason, as a minority partner, I'd say its the Malaysian governments and its influence, via its hand picked new CEO and management team likely have the greatest sway in future direction.

Step one (seemingly deja-vu all over again after only a few years) is to stop the bleeding at MH, and secondly work reestablish a sustainable niche for MH. Only once those are clear would an alliance decision seem to make sense.
Today I don't think MH yet has a clue of what it will look like 2-5 years down the road, especially with the recently signed Air Asia deal which might totally alter the carriers domestic and regional ops.
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SKAirbus
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:02 am

Although that article at the top is a whole load of bollocks, one thing is for certain... MH is a 5 star airline according to Skytrax, along with Asiana, Cathay, Hainan, Kingfisher, Qatar and Singapore.... at the moment both MH and Kingfisher are suffering from economical problems. Maybe there isn't much room for a high service carrier anymore.

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TeamintheSky
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:16 pm

While they said the issue would be settled for sure by the end of the month, I have a hard time believing that MH woudl back out of oneworld and opt for Skyteam. While MH could become Skyteam's sole Kangaroo Route carrier (until GA builds its European route network), I still would be surprised to see it.

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:17:22]
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delimit
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:33 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 43):
MH is a 5 star airline according to Skytrax, along with Asiana, Cathay, Hainan, Kingfisher, Qatar and Singapore....

That 5 star rating is a bit long in the tooth honestly. They have great service, but their product is aging.

The alliance with Air Asia is probably the absolute best thing that could happen to them. Fighting SQ at the high end and Air Asia at the low end had to be just ugly.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 44):
While they said the issue would be settled for sure by the end of the month, I have a hard time believing that MH woudl back out of oneworld and opt for Skyteam. While MH could become Skyteam's sole Kangaroo Route carrier (until GA builds its European route network), I still would be surprised to see it.

I think it all depends on how Qantas's plans fill out. I get the impression MH was a bit blind-sided by QF's announcement.
 
9MMAR
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:25 pm

Speculation dismissed.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/b...ow-confirms-alliance-a380-arrival/

Quote:
Malaysia Airlines (MAS) confirmed today it would proceed to join the oneworld alliance by the middle of 2012 and will review its product offerings in the new A380 and A330 to ensure “best in class” service as part of its drive to be a premium airline. The loss-making airline said it “is hopeful that the oneworld alliance membership can materialise within the first half of next year, and would coincide with the introduction into service of its flagship A380 aircraft” in response to The Malaysian Insider’s report on August 23 that it was considering delaying both due to cost issues.
 
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scbriml
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 46):
Speculation dismissed.

I guess they've finished their mulling then? Some will be disappointed.
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aerokiwi
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
I guess they've finished their mulling then? Some will be disappointed.

I certainly am. MH is a great airline but it simply doesn't need the 380. And Skyteam would be a far mopre sensible fit for them.
 
col
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RE: MAS Mulling Delaying A380 EIS And QF OW Alliance

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 48):
I certainly am. MH is a great airline but it simply doesn't need the 380. And Skyteam would be a far mopre sensible fit for them.

I believe MH needs the 380. They need to pull themselves out of the gutter, and the 380 is probably the only unit that could do it. A high end product will get the high end Pax and staff back on board. Plus it gives me more opportunities. Cannot wait, by doing this we can get some belief back in MH.