AV8AJET
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:13 pm

Gojets will operate 12 CR7's for DL starting in early 2012. 8 of these are coming from EV and the other 4 I would guess are coming from OH. The race to be the cheapest continues, didn't DL learn when they had Mesa flying for them???



[Edited 2011-08-23 14:18:51]
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
Cubsrule
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:17 pm

Not sure about the subject line, unless you are referring the labor situation. I flew G7 a lot when I lived in Saint Louis (not necessarily by choice) and never had anything but lovely experiences.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
RamblinMan
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:18 pm

Not terribly familiar with them... why are they a "bottom feeder?"
 
AV8AJET
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:19 pm

Low pay rates and an alter ego airline. Ask most pilots at TSA how they feel about them.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
RamblinMan
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 3):

Low pay rates and an alter ego airline. Ask most pilots at TSA how they feel about them.

Low pay rates is normal at regionals. I'm sure you, as a pilot, would rather that were not the case, but it is what it is.

Mesa provides unreliable service on dirty aircraft. We'll see about GoJet. Otherwise, they're no more of a bottom feeder than any other regional.
 
flypdx
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 4):
Mesa provides unreliable service on dirty aircraft. We'll see about GoJet. Otherwise, they're no more of a bottom feeder than any other regional.

  

I've had nothing but comfortable service on GoJet as UA Express. Nice clean aircraft as well. Maybe this will be a nice addition to DL Connection.
 
Flaps
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:42 pm

I've flown a lot of flights on Mesa and found their crews to be excellent regardless of how they may feel about the company. I hear a lot of knocks on EV as well but have yet to experience any issues myself. I think the term bottom feeder means different things to different folks. The simple fact that a company is a low bidder and those low costs are achieved by paying a low salary does not qualify them as a "bottom feeder" to either the consumer or the mainline carrier. From an employee perspective perhaps but (dont shoot the messeger) that doesnt really mean a whole lot.

Based upon my own personal experiences the so called worst of the regionals have all provided better service than any of the majors. Im basing this opinion on the past three months with Mesa, EV, Pinnacle, Chatauqua, Expressjet vs DL, AA, UA, FL. This industry is all about cost. The contracts will continue going to the lowest bidders as long as those lowest bidders continue to provide the necessary safety, completion and service standards desired by the mainline partner.
 
splitterz
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:18 pm

I have had nothing short of outstanding service on any GoJet flight. In fact I will be taking them to and from Chicago tomorrow. Plus there aircraft are well kept and somewhat new. The crews I have talked with seemed relatively happy and were pretty positive of the company. They will be a good addition to the DL Connection system. Any word what routes they may fly?
 
AV8AJET
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:24 pm

It would appear some of the routes out of CVG. Not sure where else just sad to see flying lost from EV, but we were not willing to fly it at a loss.
"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
 
FURUREFA
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
Not sure where else just sad to see flying lost from EV, but we were not willing to fly it at a loss.

I'm curious as to whether GoJets was just a lower bidder than EV, or whether EV was not chosen due to some of their reliability and performance issues...
 
MSPNWA
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:39 pm

Well, with GoJet's reputation alone I'm not on board with it. It's a race to the bottom for DCI carriers.

And secondly, the last thing the Delta network needs is to add another regional carrier to further thin things out when day-to-day operation problems arise. DCI has too many carriers as it is.
 
AV8AJET
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 9):
I'm curious as to whether GoJets was just a lower bidder than EV, or whether EV was not chosen due to some of their reliability and performance issues...

It was due to bidding, not performance.
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Acey559
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:08 pm

I flew GoJet once and deal with them often at work and I've had good experiences as well. Crews are friendly and the aircraft are pretty new. Hopefully this turns out to be a good thing for DL.
 
FURUREFA
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 10):
And secondly, the last thing the Delta network needs is to add another regional carrier to further thin things out when day-to-day operation problems arise. DCI has too many carriers as it is.

Especially when nothing is standardized. One has to learn how to pull a release, complete paperwork, etc. 8 or 9 (or however many DCI carriers there are) different ways; that's a REAL pain.
 
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DLX737200
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:22 pm

Based on what I've heard from UA employees about GoJet I feel for those that will have to deal with them at DL. Luckily I'll never have to deal with them as I'll be long gone by the time they startup.
 
micstatic
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 11):
It was due to bidding, not performance.

From a passenger standpoint, can they really be any worse than ASA?
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Cubsrule
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:51 am

Quoting micstatic (Reply 15):
From a passenger standpoint, can they really be any worse than ASA?

From a passenger standpoint, they are better than ASA in about every way imaginable.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
RamblinMan
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 6):
I've flown a lot of flights on Mesa and found their crews to be excellent regardless of how they may feel about the company.

A testament to their professionalism in the face of total lack of support from their employer. They should be commended.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
but we were not willing to fly it at a loss.

Nor should you be, it's your job at stake if your company doesn't make money!

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 10):
Well, with GoJet's reputation alone I'm not on board with it. It's a race to the bottom for DCI carriers.

Yeah, you're right. Post-merger DL has done everything wrong haven't they?  
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Thread starter):
8 of these are coming from EV and the other 4 I would guess are coming from OH. The race to be the cheapest continues, didn't DL learn when they had Mesa flying for them???

Which frames will they be? Are the QX birds leased by DL or OO? I'd also assume the batch of 8 would be the CA registered 700s that are with EV that transfered from Comair.

Quoting micstatic (Reply 15):
From a passenger standpoint, can they really be any worse than ASA?
Quoting cubsrule (Reply 16):
From a passenger standpoint, they are better than ASA in about every way imaginable.

In ASA's defense, a lot of their woes are Delta's own fault, period.
What gets measured gets done.
 
UA191
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Thread starter):
Gojets will operate 12 CR7's for DL starting in early 2012. 8 of these are coming from EV and the other 4 I would guess are coming from OH. The race to be the cheapest continues, didn't DL learn when they had Mesa flying for them???

GoJet, at least on UA Express, has absolutely great service.
UA Global Services, DL Platinum Medallion, AC Super Elite - I love flying!!!
 
usflyer msp
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting UA191 (Reply 19):
GoJet, at least on UA Express, has absolutely great service.

I agree, GoJet is one of the best UAX carriers. I suspect this thread is an example of ALPA hate-mongering because GoJet pilots dare to be Teamsters.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:09 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 20):
I agree, GoJet is one of the best UAX carriers. I suspect this thread is an example of ALPA hate-mongering because GoJet pilots dare to be Teamsters.



No. This about someone loosing flying to another carrier. AV8JET is an ASA captain if some of you haven't figured it out by now. Who wants to loose flying to another carrier and only because they will be doing it cheaper?

Like he said, the majority of it will be out of CVG so I think this thorn is more into OH's side than EV's. IDK, i'll always have a soft spot for ASA. They were my first employer and where my screen name came from as well. Sucked when all those 900 flying went to Pinnacle in Atlanta too. Sorry, I guess i'm biased here.
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mayor
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:15 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
Not sure where else just sad to see flying lost from EV, but we were not willing to fly it at a loss.

Then why bad mouth Go Jets? Just because they could do it for less than you could? Seems that most of the posters on this thread have nothing but good to say about them. Could it be that your opinion is colored because you lost that particular contract?

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 14):

Based on what I've heard from UA employees about GoJet I feel for those that will have to deal with them at DL.

Based on what my daughter says about UA employees (she's an F/A for OO), they don't have much room to complain about how bad other airline's employees are.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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mayor
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
only because they will be doing it cheaper?

Unless they really screwed up, what more compelling reason would there be? That IS the name of the game, isn't it?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:36 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
Unless they really screwed up, what more compelling reason would there be? That IS the name of the game, isn't it?

I guess the point was that cheaper isn't always better. Took them years to get Mesa from under the DCI banner and look how much it cost them. Sure they "won" the war, but the battle cost them a pretty penny. Not saying this is how GoJet will go down but this whole thing about pitting carriers against each other is getting silly. And they wonder why mainline pilots have little to no respect for many of them.

Back to what I was originally saying. EV does not dictate turn times, they have little to no control over the flight schedule (only the a/c and cancellations to a certain extent) and the LARGEST portion of their flying, which is done through Atlanta, is essentially ran by Delta. The tower, ramp, gates. Catering is contracted along with fuel and lavatory services. All coordinated by DL. All they really do is schedule, fix, and fly the things.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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mayor
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:55 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 24):
And they wonder why mainline pilots have little to no respect for many of them.

I've found that many mainline pilots have very little respect for anyone that doesn't fly mainline.



For quite a few years, DL employees treated Skywest employees like crap, as though it was Skywest's fault that they were taking routes away from mainline. I saw it, I heard it, I was witness to it and I heard it from other people. Only in the last couple of years has that situation improved. Now, as I've said, UA mainline employees are treating Skywest much the same way.
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OH-LGA
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:19 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Thread starter):
8 of these are coming from EV and the other 4 I would guess are coming from OH.

The other 4 are coming from OO. I heard they lost the contract on 4 Delta Connection CR7s effective next year so this sounds like where they are going.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
RamblinMan
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 21):
No. This about someone loosing flying to another carrier. AV8JET is an ASA captain if some of you haven't figured it out by now. Who wants to loose flying to another carrier and only because they will be doing it cheaper?

So he would, then, be willing to take a pay cut in order that his company could fly those routes profitably, right?

Get real. This is competition, and it's healthy.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:43 am

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 27):
So he would, then, be willing to take a pay cut in order that his company could fly those routes profitably, right?

Get real. This is competition, and it's healthy.

Of course not.

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 8):
but we were not willing to fly it at a loss.

Still doesn't change the fact that it sucks. What yo are suggesting; or rather what you *think* I was getting at is the exact opposite of my point and his, actually...
What gets measured gets done.
 
RamblinMan
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:09 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 28):
What yo are suggesting; or rather what you *think* I was getting at is the exact opposite of my point and his, actually...

I think I get it... he's badmouthing a competitor because his employer was outbid. If they're paying more, it's good to work for ASA. It's good for anyone to make more money doing what you do, but you can't then get mad about it when somebody else offers to do it for less.

If paying less for contract flying means a discernible loss in quality, then it's a "race to the bottom." Otherwise, it's just good business, and from what other folks have to say, it seems GoJet offers a fine product.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:30 am

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 29):

For the record, I really don't have anything against GoJet. Have never flown on any of their flights operated by United. As to the poster that hinted this has something to do with ALPA/Teamsters. Not to derail this thread too far but I think you will find the general dislike of GoJet from pilots because of what the company as a whole stands for and how/why it was created.
What gets measured gets done.
 
apodino
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Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:47 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):

For the record, I really don't have anything against GoJet. Have never flown on any of their flights operated by United. As to the poster that hinted this has something to do with ALPA/Teamsters. Not to derail this thread too far but I think you will find the general dislike of GoJet from pilots because of what the company as a whole stands for and how/why it was created.

  

Remember that RAH is also represented by the teamsters, and I am not aware of any issues that their Teamsters are having with ALPA, who BTW represents many other regional carriers.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 10):

And secondly, the last thing the Delta network needs is to add another regional carrier to further thin things out when day-to-day operation problems arise. DCI has too many carriers as it is.

This is just it...and this is the big reason I don't like this. But yet all the carriers are moving in this direction. This creates crew problems everywhere, aircraft routing issues, training issues because of all the carriers involved, and very little flexibility to deal with irregular ops.

What needs to happen is these airlines need to go to a system where each hub only has one or two regional partners a piece, based on operational needs of that hub. For example, US should only be using ZW for 50 seat flying and RAH for 70 seat lift in PHL and DCA, PSA and Mesa for lift in CLT, Piedmont for prop lift, and OO in PHX. By doing so, you eliminate bridge flights to get planes to different hubs which will eliminate cancels when aircraft go out of service, you eliminate the need for the regional to open too many crew bases, you make it easier for them to perform MX, and if stuff happens, you have a lot more flexibility in what you can do. To make an airline fly over 50 flights in a hub, and not even allow them to overnight airplanes or have space to perform mx in a major hub, is inexcusable, but this is exactly what the majors are doing to the regionals.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:08 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):

For the record, I really don't have anything against GoJet. Have never flown on any of their flights operated by United. As to the poster that hinted this has something to do with ALPA/Teamsters. Not to derail this thread too far but I think you will find the general dislike of GoJet from pilots because of what the company as a whole stands for and how/why it was created.

  

Remember that RAH is also represented by the teamsters, and I am not aware of any issues that their Teamsters are having with ALPA, who BTW represents many other regional carriers.

QX is teamsters too. This isn't a union thing at all. This is about how/why GoJet was created and how TSA pilots got screwed in the process. It was a royal hose job and I do feel for those at TSA that ended up out of work in the wake of it. Nevertheless, I personally get tired of the constant re-hash. Mention "GoJet" on a pilot forum and see how quickly the thread gets locked.

Anywho...
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:15 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 20):
GoJet is one of the best UAX carriers

I hear from my friend who use to be an FA for TZ that GoJet recruited alot of their inflight staff from TZ as they were shutting down(all or most) their operation as GoJet was ramping up!

-m

  
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:42 pm

What is the source for GoJet joining DCI? There is nothing about this/heard of it in Deltaland.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:47 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 33):
I hear from my friend who use to be an FA for TZ that GoJet recruited alot of their inflight staff from TZ as they were shutting down(all or most) their operation as GoJet was ramping up!

That is very true. XJ picked up a lot of the TZ flight attendants as well. They were taking delivery of 900s at a rapid clip at that time and growing heavily when TZ shut down. They were a wonderful group to fly with.
Good goes around!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 4):
Otherwise, they're no more of a bottom feeder than any other regional.

In a nutshell, here's what happened:

1) TSA wanted to add 70-seat jets with no raise in pay
2) ALPA pushed back, demanding higher rates for the larger equipment
3) TSA formed a holding company, made Trans States Airlines a holding, and formed another airline (GoJet) for the sole purpose of subverting the union. Trans States operates the 50-seat jet and GoJet operates the 70.

It really has nothing to do with ALPA vs Teamsters. It's the same sort of disdain pilots have for "pay-for-job" type operations--we generally don't like people who will cheapen the value of our profession just to get ahead. The "get mine and screw everyone else" mentality is pretty rotten.

It's no big secret about how GoJet came into being and the negative connotations behind that name. And people who apply and get hired there know what they're getting themselves into and choose it anyway.

Some pilots are dead set on calling GoJet pilots "scabs." I wouldn't go that far--TSA pilots never struck over it and no GoJetters crossed that picket line. But I will say this--in a lot of cases I think it speaks to their personal character.

I view it as playing Russian roulette with your career. If you go interview for that big $200K job at FedEx later as a GoJetter and your interviewer is ex-TSA, may God have mercy on your soul. Heck, they don't even have to be ex-TSA. And good luck commuting.

There's a reason why GoJet pilots walk around the airport with their ID backwards--and it isn't the breeze.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
93Sierra
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:08 pm

Doesn't us have more regionals carriers than DL?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:13 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 36):
There's a reason why GoJet pilots walk around the airport with their ID backwards--and it isn't the breeze.

That's fine, and the pilots are certainly entitled to their opinions, but as a passenger, why should I care? Is G7 any less safe? Any less comfortable? Any less reliable?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 38):
That's fine, and the pilots are certainly entitled to their opinions, but as a passenger, why should I care? Is G7 any less safe? Any less comfortable? Any less reliable?

You're probably no likelier to crash at GoJet, and I'm sure their FA's are friendly. The equipment is very new. "Less reliable" is a question mark.

But here's a poser--for most pilots, GoJet is at the absolute bottom of their "places I want to get hired" list. That should say something.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
NWAESC
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 13):
Especially when nothing is standardized. One has to learn how to pull a release, complete paperwork, etc. 8 or 9 (or however many DCI carriers there are) different ways; that's a REAL pain.

^YES.^

Don't forget nuanced differences for deicing, security, etc.

I had high hopes that the new DCI "pipeline" would eliminate a lot of that, but it doesn't look like it will anytime soon.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 37):
Doesn't us have more regionals carriers than DL?

DL has the old General Motors stratategy when it comes to DCI Carriers, A DCI carrier for every family, purse, day, mood...

Delta is a horrible airline to work contracted as.
Long Live Memphis!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 39):
That should say something.

Maybe - but what? Is it about the politics or something more relevant?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 42):

Maybe - but what? Is it about the politics or something more relevant?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious.

If better-qualified applicants are going to all the other regional carriers (of which most are hiring), that doesn't speak positively of the pilots getting hired at GoJet.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 43):
If better-qualified applicants are going to all the other regional carriers (of which most are hiring), that doesn't speak positively of the pilots getting hired at GoJet.

I guess I'm confused. The industry seems to operate under the assumption that pilots with the qualifications for the job (on paper) are all equally qualified, which seems to me (as an outsider) to be a silly assumption. Indeed, pilots have argued vociferously here and elsewhere that there's no basis for merit pay for pilots because everyone with equal seniority does the job equally. So what does "better-qualified" mean?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Mir
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 44):
Indeed, pilots have argued vociferously here and elsewhere that there's no basis for merit pay for pilots because everyone with equal seniority does the job equally.

I don't think anyone's ever argued that - the argument against merit pay is that it's nigh impossible to develop good metrics for such a system.

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 44):
So what does "better-qualified" mean?

Mostly, it'll be about the attitude they bring. The pilots who take pride in the work that they do aren't likely to be applying to work at GoJets, and even if they do it's definitely not Plan A, or B, or C, etc. I'm not sure if that really equals better qualified, but it does say something about the work ethic they'll bring.

GoJets has been able to get good people because they might have been the only airline hiring in the past. But now that all the regionals are hiring, their quality of applicants might not be what it used to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mm320cap
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:24 pm

ASA and Skywest pilots who are upset about losing "their" flying to GoJets need to remember that it was only "their" flying because they took it from mainline. There is angst about losing, what, 12 airplanes and probably zero pilot jobs? Well, I've watched my airline shrink by around 300 jets and 4,000 pilots in the past decade. The vast majority of the pilots complaining about losing these airplanes only have those jobs because they were outsourced from mainline.

To the question about why should passengers care? The race to the bottom has, is, and will be paid for in human lives. As more flying is farmed out to cheaper pilots, the talent level attracted starts to decrease. You end up with a Colgan, where the captain has serious performance issues and is flying with a new, inexperienced F/O. That is a real recipe for disaster. It's only going to get worse, as less bright young people want to get into aviation because the industry no longer offers a good "upper end". Commercial certificates issued this year was a woefully low number. Once retirements start again at the end of next year, you are going to be finding some HUGELY inexperienced people and pilots with serious performance deficiencies flying your 70 passenger jet plane around.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
The pilots who take pride in the work that they do aren't likely to be applying to work at GoJets

Why does "pride in the work" equal "union pride?" It seems to me that the only "pride" issue at G7 is the quasi-scab issue with its creation.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Mir
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 47):
Why does "pride in the work" equal "union pride?" It seems to me that the only "pride" issue at G7 is the quasi-scab issue with its creation.

You're right in this case that the issue with G7 isn't really union-based. However, it is based on the more overarching philosophy (which unionization is only a subset of) that pilots shouldn't be screwing over other pilots, and by extension that pilots shouldn't be helping other people screw over pilots. And the issue with G7's creation falls under that category.

-Mir
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catiii
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RE: Gojets To Act As Feeder Airline For DL

Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting cubsrule (Reply 44):
So what does "better-qualified" mean?

It's ambiguous, but I think it depends on the quality of training. Let's take two pilots, both with 1,500 hours, and both with ATPs. One got their 1,500 hours flying, say C-130's or C-17's after completing a very regimented, high attrition rate military flight school. The other got their 1,500 hours through a flying school, and then bounced around the country, maybe doing some flight instructing or charter work in light twins or single engine aircraft. Who is the better pilot?

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
it was only "their" flying because they took it from mainline.

No one "took" anything. Mainline gave it to their airline. And the mainline pilot group by and large bought into bought into the argument by mainline airline managers that this regional jet feed was a necessity to grown the mainline carrier but this feed could not be operated cost-effectively with the payrates that mainline pilots expected. So they passed on flying the Rjs.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
Well, I've watched my airline shrink by around 300 jets and 4,000 pilots in the past decade.

I mean this very respectfully, but your pilot group has no one to blame but themselves.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
It's only going to get worse, as less bright young people want to get into aviation because the industry no longer offers a good "upper end".

That's because the free market is at work. Passengers are paying less, when adjusted for inflation, than they've ever paid to to buy an airline ticket. Raising salaries would require increasing fares and as the amrket has deomonstrated passengers are unwilling to pay more.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
Once retirements start again at the end of next year, you are going to be finding some HUGELY inexperienced people and pilots with serious performance deficiencies flying your 70 passenger jet plane around.

Not necessarily. Congress passed legislation requiring all airline pilots to have at least an ATP license, which requires a minimum of 1,500 flight hours, including having various types of additional training such as upset training, etc..

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
The race to the bottom has, is, and will be paid for in human lives.

This is a tad dramatic.

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 46):
You end up with a Colgan, where the captain has serious performance issues and is flying with a new, inexperienced F/O.

The Captain had approximately 3300 hours of flight time and the FO had 2300 hours, including 700 hours on the airplane type she was flying at the time of the crash.

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