eastern747
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What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:16 pm

I know the prototype 707 is in Washington. Not sure about the 727, 737, 757, and even 747. But what happens to all the test aircraft, (how many). It must be expensive to keep them flyable. Do they get parked and the electronics removed for further use? Or are they stripped and turned into a Starbucks. Are they sold on a used aircraft lot....Just interested.
 
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Stitch
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:33 pm

Well in the case of the first three 787s, they are owned by Boeing and will likely be used to continue to develop technologies like bleedless / electrical architecture, laminar flows, CFRP construction and such. I also expect they will be used to test PiPs for the Trent 1000 and GEnx1B engines.

Eventually, I expect ZA001 to be parked at the Museum of Flight next to the first 747-100, 737-100 and 727-100 (not to be confused with the AA 727-200 in the Air Park. The first 727-100 is undergoing restoration off-site).

[Edited 2011-08-25 12:36:27]
 
NYC777
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:45 pm

Za004 to ZA006 will be refurbished and delivered as 787BBJ to customers.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:49 pm

My guess is that one will continue work on 787 improvements/testing. The other two have options. Sale/lease to NASA would be one as NASA needs test aircraft and the unique nature of the first 3 frames wouldn't be any extra problem for such a program. While I doubt there is any immediate need, Boeing's military side could use one for 787 military sales.
 
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ADent
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:59 pm

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Za004 to ZA006 will be refurbished and delivered as 787BBJ to customers.

I expect in time that ZA002-003 will get the same treatment. Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.
 
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Stitch
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
I expect in time that ZA002-003 will get the same treatment.

Their value has already been written down (along with ZA001) to the tune of USD 2.5 billion so I'm not sure they can be resold (at least easily).
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.

Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

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Stitch
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

The 757 (N757A) is at BFI last I saw. I believe the 767 (N767BA) has been scrapped.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Sadly, B-767-200 #1 was scrapped a few years ago. The #1 B-757 was used until a few years ago as a test bed for the F-35A program. But, I believe it will be scrapped soon, if it hasn't been already.

I am sure ZA-001 will eventually make its way into Boeing's museum, but not for many years. The B-747-100 test bed aircraft was used for decades before it retired to the museum.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Thread starter):
But what happens to all the test aircraft, (how many).

All but the first are normally sold (one assumes at a significant discount). The 787 is the oddball program in that Boeing took a big accounting write-down to move ZA001-ZA003 from inventory to R&D, which means they can't be sold without backing out the accounting issues behind that. Not impossible, but significantly more difficult and it complicates the business case.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Thread starter):
It must be expensive to keep them flyable.

Very.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Boeing itself tends not to hang on to such things...they will usually help another organization (Museum Of Flight, Flying Heritage Museum, etc.) obtain them if there is interest.

Tom.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:19 am

As the poster mentioned not knowing where the other Boeing prototypes are, here's a list:

707 (367-80): IAD (Udvar-Hazy Center)
717: LGB (scrapped)
727: PAE (Museum of Flight Restoration Center--in UA livery)
737: BFI (Museum of Flight--in NASA livery)
747: BFI (Museum of Flight)
757: BFI (active defense testbed)
767: VCV (scrapped)
777: Currently in service with CX as B-HNL

As others have said, the test 787s will probably remain with Boeing for some time to come as testbeds for that program and others. I'd be surprised if ZA001 doesn't find a home at MOF someday down the road--the others will either be converted and sold (probably to private operators) or scrapped for parts.

[Edited 2011-08-25 21:22:39]
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
707 (367-80): IAD (Udvar-Hazy Center)

What happened to the first actual full fuselage width airframe? Though the Dash-80 is the grandaddy of the 707 and (original) 717, also to an extent the 727, 737 and 757, it's more like a testbed than an actual prototype.
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mdword1959
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
757: BFI (active defense testbed)

She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

See: http://planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?srch=N757A&srng=2&stype=reg
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:26 am

Quoting mdword1959 (Reply 13):
She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

I live in Seattle and see her frequently--heck, I can still remember when she was still wearing Boeing house colors into the 1990's. That being said, I haven't seen her in the air for about a year, so maybe my "active" status is inaccurate.
 
FX1816
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:23 am

[

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
Quoting mdword1959 (Reply 13):
She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

I live in Seattle and see her frequently--heck, I can still remember when she was still wearing Boeing house colors into the 1990's. That being said, I haven't seen her in the air for about a year, so maybe my "active" status is inaccurate.

I can tell you for a fact that it has been active in the past year. BOE57A comes down to R2508 near EDW to work. I know I worked them at least once in the past 3 months or so.

FX1816
 
na
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:58 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.

Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

CX wanted to sell its aging non-ER 772s two or three years ago, and the 777 no.1 was rumoured to go back to Boeing. But as no one wanted to buy those early 777s at a proper price, CX apparently decided to keep them. I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:39 am

Quoting na (Reply 16):
. I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.

If 737 production ramps-up to 40 units per month and beyond there might not be a lot of extra parking space at BFI for relatively inactive aircraft.

See: http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=926670

Of course there's always the "Airpark" on the Museum of Flight's campus.  

See: http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=933471
http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=933114
 
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RWA380
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:46 am

Would be nice if Boeing had secured the first 74L, I know its only a variant of the 747, but a groundbreaking plane that deserves the same honor. The real original ULH Aircraft, wish I could have had the honor of a flight on one. But the chances are now gone.
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seabosdca
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:17 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
The 787 is the oddball program in that Boeing took a big accounting write-down to move ZA001-ZA003 from inventory to R&D, which means they can't be sold without backing out the accounting issues behind that. Not impossible, but significantly more difficult and it complicates the business case.

I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:19:08]
 
PPVRA
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Their value has already been written down (along with ZA001) to the tune of USD 2.5 billion so I'm not sure they can be resold (at least easily).

Accounting seeks to describe events of economic nature that affect the entity, it doesn't dictate what a company can or cannot do. Boeing can sell those planes no problem, it's just gonna take a little bit of special attention from Boeing's accounting department to record it properly. . . and not get into trouble with the SEC/IRS. But it isn't anything too complicated.

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:53:18]
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PPVRA
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:51 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

I remember them saying these planes were unsellable, but not the reason behind it. I don't know if this is related to type certificate or simply no one would buy them or Boeing is unwilling to sell them because of the shape they are in.

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:54:48]
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tdscanuck
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:27 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

I never heard that they couldn't conform to the type certificate...just that it would be uneconomical to bring them up to production standard. In other words, the amount of rework would cost more than they could get by selling the aircraft. But that's also vague memory and I don't know where the truth is.

Tom.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
Boeing itself tends not to hang on to such things...they will usually help another organization (Museum Of Flight, Flying Heritage Museum, etc.) obtain them if there is interest.
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
As the poster mentioned not knowing where the other Boeing prototypes are, here's a list:

Cheers!

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 15):

I can tell you for a fact that it has been active in the past year. BOE57A comes down to R2508 near EDW to work.

Is there not enough interest to save the soul of this very 1st 757?

Quoting na (Reply 16):
I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.

That´d be cool!!
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Sadly, B-767-200 #1 was scrapped a few years ago.

What on earth were they thinkin´???

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CX Flyboy
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:55 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

The sales deal signed with CX stipulates that if 777-200 #1 B-HNL is ever sold, that Boeing will get first choice on whether to buy it back, before it is offered to other potential customers.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):
But that's also vague memory and I don't know where the truth is.

Thanks... I trust your vague memory more than my own.  
 
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falstaff
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:23 pm

The prototype L1011 is scrapped, but I think the cockpit section is in Atlanta, at that Delta Museum.
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n471wn
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:37 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 3):
The other two have options. Sale/lease to NASA would be one as NASA needs test aircraft and the unique nature of the first 3 frames wouldn't be any extra problem for such a program. While I doubt there is any immediate need, Boeing's military side could use one for 787 military sales
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
expect in time that ZA002-003 will get the same treatment. Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.

I agree and trust me the 2nd and 3rd "test aircraft" will find homes---Boeing will not let them sit and in fact they would be good candidates for a VIP treatment where the extra weight penalty is insignificant----it makes no sense to not have these aircraft find homes....
 
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ADent
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 23):

Is there not enough interest to save the soul of this very 1st 757?

What is better than a flying, working airplane? Would you rather it parked in a Museum?


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gunsontheroof
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
Would be nice if Boeing had secured the first 74L
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
I am sure ZA-001 will eventually make its way into Boeing's museum

Just to clear this one up, the Museum of Flight is not "Boeing's" museum just as BFI is not "Boeing's" airport. It's a privately operated non-profit that Boeing has made some generous donations to over the years.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 23):
Is there not enough interest to save the soul of this very 1st 757?

As FX1816 pointed out, Boeing is still using it for defense testing. What happens to it when they run out of applications for it remains to be seen.
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate,

I think the situation is that the first three aircraft would need to receive individual certifrication, rather than run off the ticket.
Airbus did this with the first 20 or so 380's, each aircraft had to be individually certified, quite an expensive exercise.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 27):
and trust me the 2nd and 3rd "test aircraft" will find homes

I'm sure this will eventually happen. Can't cost $100 million for the paperwork for each aircraft. Can it??

Ruscoe
 
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seabosdca
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
Can't cost $100 million for the paperwork for each aircraft. Can it??

Between the cost of necessary modifications, the reduced value of the two frames due to their heavier weight, the likely tax cost of undoing the writeoff already taken on them, and possibly a concern of increased liability risk, I can see a situation where the company might judge it uneconomic to sell them. Unlikely (from my outsider's viewpoint) but possible.
 
mdword1959
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
I'm sure this will eventually happen. Can't cost $100 million for the paperwork for each aircraft. Can it??

ZA001-003 were associated with $1-2B "write-off" for financial accounting as well as income tax purposes, which claimed there was no commercial value for what was expensed immediately instead of being amortized over an accounting block point. It may prove difficult to "walk-back" the tax portion of the transaction without it costing more in additional taxes than any revenue that could be realized from potentially selling the aircraft in question.

[Edited 2011-08-26 17:24:57]
 
474218
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:51 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
I think the situation is that the first three aircraft would need to receive individual certifrication, rather than run off the ticket.
Airbus did this with the first 20 or so 380's, each aircraft had to be individually certified, quite an expensive exercise.


I can find only one TCDS "A58NM" which seems to cover all A380 models?
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):

As FX1816 pointed out, Boeing is still using it for defense testing. What happens to it when they run out of applications for it remains to be seen.

My question was sparked by:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
The #1 B-757 was used until a few years ago as a test bed for the F-35A program. But, I believe it will be scrapped soon, if it hasn't been already.

But it´s all up in the air, so to speak. Time will tell……….

Quoting ADent (Reply 28):

What is better than a flying, working airplane? Would you rather it parked in a Museum?

Yeah, like that is gonna go on forever……..
The writing is on the wall, let´s be realistic about that; at some stage she WILL retire.

To answer your question, Yes; I would prefer her seeing being preserved than being scrapped after a few more flights, with no plan in place! I am not saying that the latter will happen, but you gave me the choice of her flying NOW or being scrapped. Hopefully, reality will combine the best of both worlds........a little action remaining, some tender love & care and a nice spot in a museum somewhere as part of the retirement plan.

Not a big 757-fan, but it´d be sure be cool to keep that Boeing "1st timers" collection going!

Shame the very 1st 767 got scrapped, but I believe Delta keeps an early bird in flying condition.......I forgot the details about that.

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Viscount724
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
727: PAE (Museum of Flight Restoration Center--in UA livery)

Unlike the first 737/747/757/767, the first 727 was delivered to UA in 1964. It was donated to the Museum of Flight after UA retired it in 1991. Boeing kept the 2nd 727 for test purposes.

The first 777 was refurbished, re-engined with R-R engines, and sold to CX in 2000 after 5 years with Boeing.


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tdscanuck
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 27):
I agree and trust me the 2nd and 3rd "test aircraft" will find homes---Boeing will not let them sit and in fact they would be good candidates for a VIP treatment where the extra weight penalty is insignificant

They're terrible candidates for VIP treatment...the cost to return them to saleable state is higher than they can be sold for. Trying to sell them would cost more money than just scrapping them.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 27):
it makes no sense to not have these aircraft find homes....

Except that Boeing stated flat out it was uneconomic to refurbish them to saleable state, hence the move from inventory to R&D.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
I can see a situation where the company might judge it uneconomic to sell them. Unlikely (from my outsider's viewpoint) but possible.

Boeing already said it was more than likely, it was true.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
I think the situation is that the first three aircraft would need to receive individual certifrication, rather than run off the ticket.
Airbus did this with the first 20 or so 380's, each aircraft had to be individually certified, quite an expensive exercise.

I can find only one TCDS "A58NM" which seems to cover all A380 models?

Individual certification means they don't have a type certificate. There is no TCDS if you do individual certification, only the individual aircrafts' airworthiness certificate.

Tom.
 
474218
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:27 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
Individual certification means they don't have a type certificate. There is no TCDS if you do individual certification, only the individual aircrafts' airworthiness certificate.


The only problem is that all data available, EASA TCDS A.110, FAA TCDS A58NM, etc make no mention of A380's with individual certification.

In fact AD No. 2009-0213 (see below) lists EASA TCDS No. A.110 and states the AD is effective for all serial number A380's.

http://www.castc.org.cn/ad/Assign_showfile.asp?id=2335

So it seems to suggest that there are no individual certifications and all A380's are covered by the same TCDS.
 
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Stitch
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:40 am

I expect MSN001 through MSN024 would have individual production certificates, as they all had a great deal of re-work for wiring and cabin fitting, as opposed to individual type certificates.
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
I expect MSN001 through MSN024 would have individual production certificates, as they all had a great deal of re-work for wiring and cabin fitting, as opposed to individual type certificates.

This is how I understand it. It was that they were not covered under the same production certificate, not that they weren't covered by the same type certificate.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Accounting seeks to describe events of economic nature that affect the entity, it doesn't dictate what a company can or cannot do. Boeing can sell those planes no problem, it's just gonna take a little bit of special attention from Boeing's accounting department to record it properly. . . and not get into trouble with the SEC/IRS. But it isn't anything too complicated.

At the time these frames were written off they became (extraordinary) expense on Boeing's books and reduced its earnings before tax (EBT) significantly. Boeing saved on tax by writing them off (there is more to this story, but this is the simplest explanation).

Quoting mdword1959 (Reply 32):
ZA001-003 were associated with $1-2B "write-off" for financial accounting as well as income tax purposes, which claimed there was no commercial value for what was expensed immediately instead of being amortized over an accounting block point. It may prove difficult to "walk-back" the tax portion of the transaction without it costing more in additional taxes than any revenue that could be realized from potentially selling the aircraft in question.

That's right. There is no way Boeing would put any of that written off value back on its books. This would have serious tax implications (restating financial statements, income adjustments, mess with R&D tax credit, ugly audits, just to name a few). Even if any refurbishing is done, how do you add that value to a non-existent asset? At this point these aircraft have no salvage value any depreciated asset has.

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tdscanuck
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:46 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
The only problem is that all data available, EASA TCDS A.110, FAA TCDS A58NM, etc make no mention of A380's with individual certification.

They shouldn't be...a type certificate is for a type design. The production certificate says that your production system can produce aircraft that comply with the type design. The combination of the type certificate and production certificate is what allows you to produce certified airplanes without having to certify each airframe one by one.

If you do certify that each individual airframe matches the type design (which is what I understand Airbus did for the early frames) then it still falls under the type certificate, it just wasn't produced under the production certificate. From a regulatory standpoint (and a customer standpoint) that's just fine, it's just a phenomenal headache for the OEM.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):

I expect MSN001 through MSN024 would have individual production certificates

I don't think there is such a thing as an individual production certificate, there's no need. The production certificate certifies that your production system cranks out articles that comply with the type design. The production certificate doesn't apply to individual aircraft...all that applies to an individual airframe is the airworthiness certificate. The production and type certificates are all about how you show that the aircraft is compliant and therefore can receive it's airworthiness certificate but there is no requirement that any individual aircraft have either a type certificate or a production certificate behind it. As long as it has the airworthiness certificate, it's legal.

Tom.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
Trying to sell them would cost more money than just scrapping them.

Scrapping them.........or stripping them?
The parts must be worth some dough.......

I don´t think you can use them on new 787´s, (the customer wouldn´t like that!!) but with the 787 going into service, there will be a "787-part market" soon..........won´t there?

I guess a lot of people on this site would pay some $$$ to have a 787 part hanging in their garage!!!

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BEG2IAH
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:55 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 42):
I don´t think you can use them on new 787´s, (the customer wouldn´t like that!!) but with the 787 going into service, there will be a "787-part market" soon..........won´t there?

Maybe someone can provide more detail but one of my clients told me that Part 145 parts (intended for maintenance) cannot be even moved to Part 21 inventory (intended for new assembly), let alone installed on a new frame. I would guess you could install parts stripped from the first three machines on B-787s already flying. Again, they are written off completely, so not sure how I would book that miraculously reappearing part.

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tdscanuck
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:46 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 42):
Scrapping them.........or stripping them?
The parts must be worth some dough.......

You always strip the LRU's and recoverable parts before scrapping. Scrapping is usually just structure and parts that have little/no value after use or can't be easily removed (e.g. seals).

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 42):
I don´t think you can use them on new 787´s, (the customer wouldn´t like that!!) but with the 787 going into service, there will be a "787-part market" soon..........won´t there?

I think you can use them on a new 787 if they go through full overhaul at the part OEM and they come back with new paperwork.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 42):
I guess a lot of people on this site would pay some $$$ to have a 787 part hanging in their garage!!!

I've been trying to figure out how to make that business work...I think there are enough aviation nuts in the world that you could make a descent living re-packaging "dead" aviation parts for enthusiasts (include a certificate with P/N, date, airframe it came from, etc.). All I know is I have a lot of CFRP coasters around my house these days...

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 43):
Maybe someone can provide more detail but one of my clients told me that Part 145 parts (intended for maintenance) cannot be even moved to Part 21 inventory (intended for new assembly), let alone installed on a new frame.

I don't think you can go directly from one to the other, but if the part goes back to the OEM and has a full overhaul I think it can come back with paperwork that allows it back into the production stream. I'm not positive about that though. You could certainly enter it into the spare parts supply chain, which should be humming fairly soon anyway.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 43):
Again, they are written off completely, so not sure how I would book that miraculously reappearing part.

Same way a failed part that comes off an airplane can come back as an overhauled part later...from an accounting point of view, it's not the same part.

Tom.
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 44):
Same way a failed part that comes off an airplane can come back as an overhauled part later...from an accounting point of view, it's not the same part.

Tom, thanks. This makes sense. The key here is that it's overhauled, it's not just taken off of a written-off asset and then reinstalled on another frame. Some value is added to it.

And congratulations on certification. You guys built an amazing machine.

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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:54 pm

Since no one has posted it yet, here are all of the #1 Boeing 7-series aircraft, as they are now, except the 707, which was destroyed in an accident in 1965 and the 767, which is now scrapped:

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Photo © Roland Bergmann-Spotterteam Graz
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n685fe
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:14 pm

Here's a little Bit of info that I had not know before, a very reputable parts broker told me this. When an a/c is involved in a reportable incident to the FAA where there is an injury, all the s/n'd parts on that a/c now have a history that follows it for the life of the part. Air carriers are less likely to purchase the parts due to their insurance premiums going up if they do. There for all those parts have a substantially lower resale value. I wonder if parts off of a test a/c would have the same type of history?
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FX1816
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 34):
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):

As FX1816 pointed out, Boeing is still using it for defense testing. What happens to it when they run out of applications for it remains to be seen.


My question was sparked by:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
The #1 B-757 was used until a few years ago as a test bed for the F-35A program. But, I believe it will be scrapped soon, if it hasn't been already.

But it´s all up in the air, so to speak. Time will tell……….

I think you missed my statement after KC135 posted saying that the prototype 752 is still flying more recently than a few years ago, in fact just a few months ago I worked it.

FX1816
 
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RE: What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:46 pm

In 1991 I took a tour of Boeing's Everest facility and they had (20 years ago) a real banged up looking 747-100 on the lot. Livery stripped off, it was once in service. Is it still there? The guide said it was one of the first and was being studied of a 747 after it had flown it's virtual maximum.

I would assume a 787 may have it's butt flown off then continually checked for stress points, cracks etc. I am certainly no expert on this but I do recall seeing that 20 year old 747 autopsy!
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