cx828
Topic Author
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AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:24 pm

As both CX and AA would have a chance to start or codeshare HKG-DFW, but AA need to get the PERMISSION from their emnployees before they can start such long haul, did AA forget or did not pay the salary to their employees??

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:28:22]

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:28:55]

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:30:19]
 
grain
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:48 pm

Airlines do have contracts with their employees. So when an airline wants to change that they need to ask the employees permission.
 
cx828
Topic Author
Posts: 97
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:11 pm

it is ridiculous that a company would sign that contracts. Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??
 
United1
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting cx828 (Reply 2):
Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

This is unique to AA, flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union. Neither DL or UA have that stipulation in their contract.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

This is unique to AA, flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union. Neither DL or UA have that stipulation in their contract

AA needs to eliminate the "limit" clause from its pilot contract. Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era. Raises or "snap-backs" may not be realistic in today's airline market.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.
 
rfields5421
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:40 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses.

While the pilots understood the need to trim the airline expenses, and most also understand that the few tens of millions of dollars given to executives was only a drop in the bucket on the scale needed - it left a bad taste for many of the pilots.

The mechanics, the customer service staff, the baggage handlers, the ground crews, the flight attendants, the pilots, the average administrative worker - all took pay cuts.

And upper management got more money. Frankly I was surprised at the time, and expected the 'bad faith' to cause problems for years. All the management workers should have taken similar level pay cuts, and when money was restored to salaries, it should have gone across the board, not the upper management first.

That is how other airlines did things. But the AA leadership had to be different. Also it was Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:44 pm

In a way, I don't blame the employees' mistrust towards management. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me: this describes the attitude of the employees. They gave up a lot only to find that management (Carty) was using it to their advantage.

Unless Arpey takes concrete steps to regain the trust of the employees and keep it, I support management asking employees for changes. It's perhaps the only reminder management has that employees are not something to run over.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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par13del
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
Unless Arpey takes concrete steps to regain the trust of the employees and keep it, I support management asking employees for changes. It's perhaps the only reminder management has that employees are not something to run over.

I'm sure they would love to go to Chpt.11 and abrogate all those employee contracts, fortunately / unfortunately for AA, UA got the rules changed, and they chose not to follow NW to take advantage of the expiring conditions.

What exactly can AA do, they just bought Airbus onboard, if some pilots still have bad blood for management I guess they may also have some for Airbus and the A300 crash in NYC.
Only thing I can see them doing to placate the pilots is to pay them, they can certainely try to play other employee groups off against the pilots which I think they did before, did not work then may not work now. Cost are already at a disadvantage and the strategy of waiting until other carriers cost increase to match their is slow to materialize.
If the board is actively involved they could attempt to make massive management changes and see if that works, after all, their loyalty is to their share values and not the staff they hire, additionally, most management probably have golden parachutes so their landing will be soft compared to line staff.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.

Carty certainly has enough to blame but he was like Bush taking over for Reagan, as close to the original as there was available at the time.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses

There is always lots of "biterness" between management and labor, ok. But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly. We are talking about a bunch of rich people managing some rich and mostly almost rich people. The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract, a 50 year old 777 captain can NOT go to DL or United and be a 777 captain. HE can go to Qatar Air or Emirates if Dubai or Doha seems exotic to finish his career.

Make the deal that has to be made to fly the A320's and 787-9's and flying to Hong Kong.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Carty certainly has enough to blame but he was like Bush taking over for Reagan, as close to the original as there was available at the time.

Not at all - it would be difficult to find two leaders with different styles than Crandall and Carty. They are two extremely different people, and were two extremely different managers.

Crandall created a self-sustaining machine with a young fleet and strong balance sheet - he was at all times in complete and total command of all things AA, and was intimately engaged in every aspect of how the company's finances were managed. Carty was less engaged, and far less emotionally involved.

AA was Crandall's identity, AA was merely Carty's job.

And, most importantly in the context of this conversation, Crandall generally had the respect of most of AA's rank-and-file, even many of the union members, whether they liked him or not, while the same could not be said for Carty.
 
Stabilator
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

A very select few make that much money. Many pilots will never earn the big bucks flying 74's or 77's for their company. The perception that being an airline pilot means you're rich is false.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
rfields5421
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract,

I hear that but I'm sorry, I don't see it happening very often.

The relatively few people who can move easily do so anyway.

Also this needs to keep people occurred when the industry was trimming thousands of executives with bankruptcies in other airlines. The market was flooded with high quality airline executives. The 'bid price' for those jobs was down 30 or 40 % of past salaries.

Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

[Edited 2011-08-28 12:47:01]
 
Eagleboy
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses.
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
In a way, I don't blame the employees' mistrust towards management. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me: this describes the attitude of the employees. They gave up a lot only to find that management (Carty) was using it to their advantage.

Doesn't just happen at AA. Last year EI staff all took an average 7% wage cut allow while also giving up T&C's.

This year the top 40 mgmt got bonuses even though they only took a salary freeze in 2010. The mgmt also messed up their staff vs aircraft numbers for this summer (not enough pilots and/or cabin crew, thus having to have hire-ins, 2-3 per week for the first 6 month of the year)
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

Amen.
 
PPVRA
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and other ones like scope clauses aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

[Edited 2011-08-28 13:38:07]
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RWA380
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Doesn't it make sense for the pilots to give up the 16 hour rule for the survival of the carrier? Allowing some potentially profitable ultra long haul routes possible? AA needs to be competative now instead of floundering while other carriers push ahead, and AA plays a futile game of catch up later on routes where others are well established? Better than being forced into chapter 11 where they could loose much more incl their jobs if AA went under. I think we can all agree AA can't keep going in the same direction as they currently are. Too bad, some of my best overseas trips have been on AA flying J when the 777 was just coming into the fleet. Still hated the 4 hour MD-80 flights I had to take to get to the DFW or ORD gateway, even though I was in F.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Stabilator
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and scope clauses at many other airlines aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

But what would you have then? Normally I'm a conservative when it comes to my beliefes especially when it comes to labor. However, given my vested interest in the industry I have a few questions for you. Say scope did not exisit? We'd have an outsource extravaganza where Mainline DL only flew a select few domestic and intl routes. What you'd have is a cluster f*** of outsourced airlines, with different managerial practices, different aircraft with different on board amenities/entertainment, different cost structures all trying to work under DL, who in turn have different ways of running their airline.

At what point would getting rid of a scope clause hurt the company because the products each consumer experience are so excessiey different and that it would lead them to choose a different airline?
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
genybustrvlr
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union.

I know that the contract has a time limit, but what is the time based on? I assume it can't be flight time if it is 16hrs, because AA doesn't have a plane that can fly 16hr routes (the 77E doesn't have that range does it?). So is the time limit 16hrs? and if so what is it based on?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

This should be a mandatory quote on the wall at HQ of every customer service business in world!
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):

Do senior pilots actually make this much money?

I am not well versed in pilot pay, but I think this number is not a typical salary but one that can be achieved only by a very very senior captain who picks up a lot of extra flying. So possible, but far from typical pilot salary. One of the pilots on here can probably address it better.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

Out of curiosity, how do you figure? My Uncle is almost a 30yr veteran pilot with AA, he has topped out the payscale on their highest paying aircraft and doesn't make near that amount. In fact, if a Captain at the top of the pay scale flew 1000 hours in a single year (HIGHLY unlikely and the maximum amount allowed by Federal Aviation Regulations)) he or she would make 205K/yr, and that is before taxes and so on.

Further, you are aware the vast majority of AA pilots make significantly less than this, yes? A small percentage of their pilots fall under this pay band.

[Edited 2011-08-28 14:32:19]
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exFATboy
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
As both CX and AA would have a chance to start or codeshare HKG-DFW, but AA need to get the PERMISSION from their employees before they can start such long haul

I think "permission" is too much of an emotionally-loaded term, it'd be more correct to say that the current contract does not contain terms for these flights and the airline has to negotiate those terms before the flights can start, just as - to make up an example - if the current UAW-Chrysler contract doesn't cover fabrication of an entire car body out of carbon fibre, Chrysler would have to negotiate terms for carbon-fibre workers before they could start making such cars.

A contract can't cover every eventuality. And sometimes unions and companies negotiate language that gives one party protections they may be looking for that address concerns that, to an outsider, may look unnecessarily restrictive. WN's pilots have a "no codeshare" provision in their contract, because that's a big worry of theirs.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract

Not always, depends on the position - an airline VP of Finance or Accounting can move to another industry fairly easily because the "Finance" skill set isn't that industry-specific. A VP of Human Resources might have a bit harder of a time, but there are other industries with characteristics in common with airlines.

On the other hand, an airline VP of Safety or Operations* has a very specific skill set that restricts their ability to move to another company pretty severely - they're basically limited to moving to another airline, and there aren't that many airlines in the world.
 
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par13del
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program.

So you think it is fairley easy to build up the hours required to get hired at a regional then continue to build them to meet legacy requirements? Getting a single engine pilot license is cheap, unfortunately, before you can get hired at a regional you have to get twin certified, instruments, and a few others which cost time and money.
You may get your wish, if things go the way some want, most pax in the US would travel on regional carriers whose pilots are paid a living wage.
 
odysseus9001
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.


The market will determine salaries, and both corporate and union bargaining power will be factors.

What kind of business do you manage? A dry cleaner?

John
 
United1
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 19):
Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union.

I know that the contract has a time limit, but what is the time based on? I assume it can't be flight time if it is 16hrs, because AA doesn't have a plane that can fly 16hr routes (the 77E doesn't have that range does it?). So is the time limit 16hrs? and if so what is it based on?

My bad it's 12 not 16 hours...I didn't get allot of sleep last night as I moved to NYC just in time for a hurricane and an "eathquake." As a Californian I'm required to add the " " as that was pretty weak one.... 

It is based on flight time.....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jfk777
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 21):
Out of curiosity, how do you figure? My Uncle is almost a 30yr veteran pilot with AA, he has topped out the payscale on their highest paying aircraft and doesn't make near that amount. In fact, if a Captain at the top of the pay scale flew 1000 hours in a single year (HIGHLY unlikely and the maximum amount allowed by Federal Aviation Regulations)) he or she would make 205K/yr, and that is before taxes and so on.

Most pilots fly 80 hours monthly, times 12 months is 960 hours. 1000 is just half a month more. And we all pay taxes sorry if a person making 250K only "keeps" 150K but tell that to all those working minimum wage. Prosperity is expensive.
 
ILUV767
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:35 pm

Based on the acutal pilot pay scales at AA listed on Airline Pilot Central http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american.html a senior 777 Captain if they only fly guarentee everymonth (and who is a line holder) will make $157,440/year.

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program.

Any Professional Pilot position is a job with a specialized skill set which is not widely available (not many new commercial pilots out there). A Professional Pilot's skill set is a result of both training (which is very intense) and experience. A Professional Pilot is paid in such a way where the larger the aircraft, the more wealth it produces for the company; the more risk and liability is assumed. Experience and skill set lend their hand in the decision making process which allows for continued safe opeartions.
 
Stabilator
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):

An ignorant comment. As I have tried to point out, those salaries are obtained by select few at an airline. And many people who train to become pilots cant hack it so they do something else with their lives. I'd hardly call it blue collar. Luckily, pay in the industry isnt based on what you think it should be.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:24 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era. Raises or "snap-backs" may not be realistic in today's airline market.
Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.

I think the pilots used to feel that Crandall was a regular SOB, but he completely understood how AMR worked, how the industry worked, and how to keep AMR ahead of the competition. On the other hand, the bonus issue is what did in Carty, while a lot of people believe that Arpey lacks both the vision and leadership instincts that made Crandall such an effective CEO.

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
Not at all - it would be difficult to find two leaders with different styles than Crandall and Carty. They are two extremely different people, and were two extremely different managers.

Crandall created a self-sustaining machine with a young fleet and strong balance sheet - he was at all times in complete and total command of all things AA, and was intimately engaged in every aspect of how the company's finances were managed. Carty was less engaged, and far less emotionally involved.

AA was Crandall's identity, AA was merely Carty's job.

And, most importantly in the context of this conversation, Crandall generally had the respect of most of AA's rank-and-file, even many of the union members, whether they liked him or not, while the same could not be said for Carty.

I know some pilots who, while agreeing with you to some extent, still believe that Crandall created a culture at AMR that has changed little since his retirement. Many feel that to really shake things up at AMR and put the company back on track to innovate and make money on a regular basis, a CEO from outside the company is needed, along with a change in most of the senior management.
 
thrufru
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:44 am

Sorry gang... I can't figure out how to quote selected text on an iPhone. But this is in response to Genybustrlvr:

There are so many things wrong with the above statement, that I don't really even know where to start. Not only is the argument presented flawed, it is patently wrong. Before making any statement, one would be wise to do a little background research. It blows me away that on an aviation enthusiasts' website we still see such ignorance.

I suppose you can take comfort in knowing, then, that the starting salary of a regional airline pilot is comensurate with a job at McDonald's.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:48 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 29):
On the other hand, the bonus issue is what did in Carty,

Weren't the unions offered stock bonuses as part of their compensation, but turned them down. Or am I thinking of another airline?
 
dfwexecplat
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:25 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall

I disagree....I worked for AA during the Crandall years. He was not well liked either. Any time the work groups are involved with re negotiating their contract, the company becomes the enemy. Crandall did a lot of amazng things for the company but still wasn't trusted nor really liked by employees.

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4): Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

Agreed....many are still so bitter towards the company. It's sad to see. Airlines provide a lot of amazing careers...Sad to see so many spending their careers with so much hatred.

Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 24):
Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.

There are a lot of ignorant comments in this thread, this is one of the worst! Really?
 
skyrat
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.


Bunch of overpaid button pushers! Shoot I can fly a plane on my flight simulator, how hard can it be?   
flown:146,a319,a320,717,722,733,735,738,744,752,763,772,crj2,crj7,crj9,dc9,dc10,e135,e145,e170,e175,frj,md80
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and other ones like scope clauses aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

The company can negotiate anytime they're ready,

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for.

Why don't you give my (somewhat former) line of work a try then since it's so easy. I'll admit that parts of it are easy. The caveat being at some time in your career the shit WILL hit the fan and you will have to rely on experiences gained outside of the recruiting and training program, to keep yourself, and the 100 people behind you from becoming a headline story on all the news networks. It happens to all of us.

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program.

I'm too tired to do it, but go look up the total number of ATP certificates in the US and tell me whether or not a pilot brings a "specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program.". Then, answer me this... What are Sully and Skiles worth? You do understand they aren't the only ones to save hundreds of lives through their skill and experience that was not "easily" developed through a recruiting and training program. Most of the pilots who end up in situations similar don't make headline news. Only when you deadstick one in the Hudson or limp one back to Sioux City with no hydraulics do you make headlines. The rest of the stories go untold because the outcome is what you would expect of experienced professionals.

Again, I invite you to put yourself through an airline training program and see for yourself. $100 says you wouldn't make it through the systems test...
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 572
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 25):
My bad it's 12 not 16 hours...I didn't get allot of sleep last night as I moved to NYC just in time for a hurricane and an "eathquake." As a Californian I'm required to add the " " as that was pretty weak one....

It is based on flight time.....

Thanks for that.
 
genybustrvlr
Posts: 105
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 24):

The market will determine salaries, and both corporate and union bargaining power will be factors.

What kind of business do you manage? A dry cleaner?

Worse, an Investment Banking team.

The problem here is that the free market is not allowed to work. Union bullying has distorted the free market beyond recognition and government over-regulation of the industry has compounded the problem.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
tell me whether or not a pilot brings a "specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program."

A pilot meets half the definition, a specialized skill set is certainly required for the position. However, there are many people out there who could successfully complete a pilot training program so the position does not justify a salary north of 150K.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
Then, answer me this... What are Sully and Skiles worth?

The same as the pilot whose plane did not have a massive failure in the sky.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses.

The reality is that the unions had an opportunity in stock options or "up front" money and they chose the latter and now are bitter that when senior management made their "outrageous bonuses" when AMR's stock went up back in 2007.

They can't get over the fact they made a poor decision and want it both ways...go figure..  
"Up the Irons!"
 
apodino
Posts: 3033
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:33 am

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 36):

The problem here is that the free market is not allowed to work. Union bullying has distorted the free market beyond recognition and government over-regulation of the industry has compounded the problem.

Wrong again. The free market has worked, unfortunately in the wrong way. Instead of regional pilots starting at a higher pay because of lack of demand, the regionals decided to lower their hiring standards, in some cases hiring guys without a commercial rating and making their IOE also double as their commercial checkride. Not exactly the type of stuff that makes me feel safe flying that particular carrier. And if you think pilot training is so easy, howcome at my carrier more than 50 percent of the new hires are constantly washing out of new hire training?

I was talking to a guy who owned his own business for many years. He told me that one of the business prinicples that he believed in was don't try to be the cheapest, but try to offer the best product, even saying that pilots are grossly underpaid. The problem is that all the airlines out there are trying to be the cheapest, and no one save for Virgin America and possibly B6 are offering a good product that actually stands out from the competitors.

The reason scope is needed is because one of the big reasons that guys go to the regionals is to build up time and make themselves more attractive to the majors. The problem with this is if scope is relaxed, then there is going to be not as much flying at the majors, which means not as many jobs. If there is no opportunity at the majors, then why work for a bad wage at the regional level. And before someone tells me that the market will correct the wages up, you know darn well a new startup will come along, underbid the exisiting carriers, and the cycle will start all over again.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
The reality is that the unions had an opportunity in stock options or "up front" money and they chose the latter and now are bitter that when senior management made their "outrageous bonuses" when AMR's stock went up back in 2007.

That is a true statement, and I did not agree with APA on this one. The neat thing about stock options is its cheaper for the company and can be worth a lot of money, especially if the stock turns up. The downside, and this is what APA figured, is that the money is not guaranteed, because who knows what the stock price would do. The other problem with stock options is then you have a conflict of interest, because what will benefit the stock price, may not benefit you in other ways. All in all though, I would have taken the stock options, and personally if I were an employee I would be putting in a sell order as soon as they hit my portfolio and move my money elsewhere.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4641
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:56 am

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 36):

The problem here is that the free market is not allowed to work. Union bullying has distorted the free market beyond recognition and government over-regulation of the industry has compounded the problem.

You know, I can get over the anti-union stance (as I sympathize with some of your concerns), but government over-regulation? Yes, let's go back to the good ol' days, you know when people died because airlines cut corners to save a few bucks. Hell, it still goes on: Colgan 3407. One pilot that for all intents and purposes should not have been (no, not just anyone can be a pilot) and another that probably would have been on the streets had she called in sick like she should have.

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 36):
However, there are many people out there who could successfully complete a pilot training program

"Many" is pretty vague, and it's only half of the equation. The investment to become a commercial pilot is almost on par with becoming a doctor or lawyer. Not only do you need a bachelor's degree, but thousands of hours of flight time that runs into the upper tens of thousands of dollars. The cheap track to 1500 hours runs nearly 60K... and good luck getting hired with a regional making less than minimum wage with that.

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 36):

The same as the pilot whose plane did not have a massive failure in the sky.

That makes no sense at all no matter how you look at it. You're either saying that harder work should be paid out the same as lesser work, or that pilots aren't paid to keep things as safe as possible, just push those buttons and be on your way, yeah?

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 36):
Investment Banking team.

Ah, that explains everything. Instead of actually researching and understanding something, your industry looks for the quickest, dirtiest way to make a few bucks, while giving half-answers that don't mean anything. Hint: that's why our economy is in the toilet.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
bobnwa
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
... What are Sully and Skiles worth

I don't know what they are worth, but I am sure they would't fly safer if they made more money.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1262
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting cx828 (Reply 2):
it is ridiculous that a company would sign that contracts. Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and other ones like scope clauses aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

There are at least two signatures at the bottom of every contract. AA agreed to this contract as did the union, APA.

Are you suggesting that the contract shouldn't be binding? Have you ever signed a contract (perhaps to buy a car)? Should the other party be able to unilaterally change the contract?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
rfields5421
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
They can't get over the fact they made a poor decision

My advisors wanted me to put $350,000 into AMR stock at $2. Could have sold it for $20 easily and my 'retirement' would not require me to work at a minimum wage job part-time.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
They can't get over the fact they made a poor decision

My advisors wanted me to put $350,000 into AMR stock at $2. Could have sold it for $20 easily and my 'retirement' would not require me to work at a minimum wage job part-time.

Adviser made a good call. I hope with that amount potentially invested he/she had a good "backup" (i.e.-"protective puts") as "insurance".

Regardless, my point still stands.   
"Up the Irons!"
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
They can't get over the fact they made a poor decision and want it both ways...go figure..

It was a poor decision NOW when we know how the situation is faring. At the time, it was a good one (perhaps a vital one regardless of whether it was good or not) and they hoped management would follow through and not stab them in the back.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:08 pm

The eternal argument about scope clauses, it seems to me, comes down to two points that need to be addressed.

First, 70-100 seat aircraft is a critical seating range, because many markets can a) support a/c this size on hub-friendly frequencies, but b) not support 125-seat 319's or 73G's. This situation should surprise no one; for decades, 100-seat a/c like 737-200's and DC-9-30's were a staple of medium- and medium-small markets that now see lots of high-CASM 50-seat RJ's. The impasse over this size range needs to end, for both passengers and shareholders.

Second, the fact that carriers have been unable to reach contracts to have mainline pilots fly 70-100 seat a/c suggests that the pilot unions are the bigger problem. Airlines want to make profits. This is the motive to reach settlements to get seat-ranges in the air that meet market needs and make money. It seems unlikely that management is the majority of the problem here. They want to make money for shareholders. There is a profitable pay range for flying these a/c.

More likely is that mainline pilots still want too much money to fly these a/c themselves. They could have the flying, in-house, operated by the mainline carrier itself, if they agreed to a financially viable pay range for the a/c. But apparently they don't, so more flying than necessary goes out the door to contract carriers, on aircraft smaller than markets can support, with higher seat-mile costs that depress demand. And as we know, those 70-ish-to 90-ish seat a/c that are flying are flown by contract carriers.

Scope as it stands is harming passengers, communities, and almost certainly profitability. Something needs to change.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 44):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
They can't get over the fact they made a poor decision and want it both ways...go figure..

It was a poor decision NOW when we know how the situation is faring. At the time, it was a good one (perhaps a vital one regardless of whether it was good or not) and they hoped management would follow through and not stab them in the back.

Their decision (and subsequent pouting) has shown it was a poor decision then. Now if AA's goes into BK and its stock goes to zero then it will be a good decision.
"Up the Irons!"
 
apodino
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 45):
Second, the fact that carriers have been unable to reach contracts to have mainline pilots fly 70-100 seat a/c suggests that the pilot unions are the bigger problem. Airlines want to make profits. This is the motive to reach settlements to get seat-ranges in the air that meet market needs and make money. It seems unlikely that management is the majority of the problem here. They want to make money for shareholders. There is a profitable pay range for flying these a/c.

Do we even know that the majors have even tried to negotiate pay rates for this flying? Or has the negotiations been more relaxation of scope in exchange for higher widebody rates? The other thing here is that airlines such as US, B6, and FL/WN are flying ac in this range with no problem at mainline. Last earnings report showed that all three of those carriers were profitable. We don't know what the legacy unions were negotiating behind closed doors, but I am guessing that the unions would love to negotiate a payscale to bring the flying in house, but the management would have none of it, insisting on relaxation of scope. What has been failed to mention is the ownership costs of these extra airplane, along with the mx costs that would also be incurred by the mainline carrier. If the unions want to bring the flying in house, this is where they need to figure out ways to save money. Unfortunately, the RJ's are mx nightmares and their dispatch reliability doesn't even come close to Boeing or Airbus.

The pilots are just pawns in this whole thing. I believe that even if the Pilot scales and workrules were identical to lets say OO or G7, the majors would still outsource that flying because of the other costs involved. This is where controlling the other costs becomes critical.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 47):

Has any airline union proposed a pay scale for the regional planes? If so, what was it? Anyone know? Guess?

We do know the unions negotiated outsourcing the flying to the regionals. How hard did they originally work to keep it?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?

Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 47):
The pilots are just pawns in this whole thing. I believe that even if the Pilot scales and workrules were identical to lets say OO or G7, the majors would still outsource that flying because of the other costs involved. This is where controlling the other costs becomes critical.

Whether legacy carriers have actually tried to negotiate, I don't know. I'm just pointing out the economic interest--they have a clear economic reason to try to get this a/c seat-range in the air.

As for the costs of operating the smaller a/c, AA is taking on the debt of Eagle in order to lipstick the pig for sale. Don't legacies often have a financing role in a/c for their regionals? In addition, AC operates 70ish-100-seat a/c itself. Also, the fleet sizes the three mega-legacies would be talking about, probably would help with spreading out costs.

Pilots have far more power than is often claimed at this website. Scope wouldn't still exist if they were just "pawns."

Quoting apodino (Reply 47):
We don't know what the legacy unions were negotiating behind closed doors, but I am guessing that the unions would love to negotiate a payscale to bring the flying in house, but the management would have none of it, insisting on relaxation of scope.

Getting more 70-100-seat a/c in the air at economically viable costs has, for my purposes as a passenger, the same effect as eliminating or reducing scope. Who flies them doesn't (or shouldn't) affect pax one way or another. Agreeing with mainline pilots to fly additional 70-100 seat a/c appears to be the only legally viable option, as the contractual situation stands.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)