LIPZ
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Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:05 pm

After losing Lufthansa (4xd) eff from 29OCT the Milan Malpensa-Paris CDG route is also going to lose another important player like Air France (4xd too) from the same date.
Instead AF looks to strengthen its position in the better located city-airport of Linate where they plan to grow up to 10 flights/per day (combined with AZ) from current 7xd.
Moreover AZ (codesharing with AF) also operates Linate-Orly 3 times per day bringing the total number of flights between Milan and Paris offered by AZ-AF group to 13xd each-way.

Anyway, between Malpensa and Roissy will keep on flying the lowcost carrier easyJet.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:20 pm

All this is very logical.
AF is building a partnership with AZ and AZ is transferring its long haul flights to FCO ... so no really need for AF to serve MXP anymore, considering also that most O/D passengers prefer largely to land in LIN, rather than MXP.

It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel) ...
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel)

However, AZ has a few international flights ex-MXP, right? JFK, GRU, NRT maybe?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
LIPZ
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:27 pm

In addition, KLM between AMS and MXP used to fly 6xd during 2008-2009 and nowadays there are just 3 flights per day left on the route.

Rumors also abound about KLM completely leaving MXP in favour of LIN sometimes in the near future.

[Edited 2011-08-29 11:28:36]
 
LIPZ
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
JFK, GRU, NRT maybe?

These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).
 
EddieDude
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:34 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 4):
These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).

Thank you. I wonder if they will last.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
flyyul
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:41 pm

With all the know-how in Northern Italy, it's a shame to see how disastrous the 2 airport policy has been to Milan.

The comparison to Montreal is correct, at least the local airport administration took measures to consolidate at 1 airport, sad that Milan is not doing the same.
 
alitaliadc10
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:55 am

I do see some validity to the comparison with YMX however please keep in mind that MXP is a very important destination to the likes of CX, SQ, TG and 9W - it is a very high yield premium destination.These carriers can't operate into LIN. So MXP will still be around, albeit not used to its full potential.

CX has just increased to daily and in some reports has stated MXP is doing extremely well particularly in First and Business - not bad for a depressed world economy.

It's unfortunate AZ didn't make MXP work but the blame doesn't just rest with AZ - lots of politics, LIN all contributed.

MXP if it were to be properly managed could've been a major European hub.
Orbis non sufficit
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:12 am

The LIN and MXP situation is a sad one to see, and only really serves to strengthen FCOs position as the primary hub for Italy.

Hardly an unexpected move though this one, but it is unexpected to see such a huge loss of 8 Daily flights within a short period on the MXP-CDG route.
 
edina
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:00 am

BA have also downsized MXP......since this summer season there is no longer a nighstopping aircraft in MXP meaning that the first departure is now 1205. There are now 3 x roundtrip LHR-MXP-LHR services.

LIN has always been very high yielding for BA, hence the capacity increase - most services are now A321s; but MXP C class loads are often in single figures on fully loaded flights.
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:42 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel) ...

However, Dorval can accommodate long-haul, LIN can't.
 
IDISA
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
With all the know-how in Northern Italy, it's a shame to see how disastrous the 2 airport policy has been to Milan.

Agree. it's such a sad news to see other airliners leaving MXP. The airport has an enormous potential but it's badly managed and still remains with many empty gates...

Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 7):
MXP if it were to be properly managed could've been a major European hub.

Absolutely true.

Regards
IDISA
 
r2rho
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:18 pm

This move makes sense, with no more AZ long-haul, the traffic to MXP becomes purely O&D, and with high yields, and for that LIN is much better.

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 4):
These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).

Even if these routes are maintained, they likely weren't getting any feed from CDG because AF already serves them direct, so this has no effect on them.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
The comparison to Montreal is correct,

The comparison with YMX is invalid. MXP will continue to exist and be needed, as LIN is a constrained airport that cannot handle long-haul. It simply will not exist as the great AZ hub airport many wished it to be. The only European airline that has been able to pull off a multi-hub strategy - LH - could not make MXP work either. Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million). Surely not a YMX...
 
flyyul
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 12):
The comparison with YMX is invalid. MXP will continue to exist and be needed, as LIN is a constrained airport that cannot handle long-haul. It simply will not exist as the great AZ hub airport many wished it to be. The only European airline that has been able to pull off a multi-hub strategy - LH - could not make MXP work either. Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million). Surely not a YMX...

The comparison to YMX is completely valid. The local OD markets from LIN within a 0-4 hour range is mostly concentrated in LIN, leaving MXP as a mostly Long-Haul and cargo airport.

Domestic and intra-Europe connectivity to International flights is limited with a 2 airport system. It is clear that pax wanting to go to Milan prefer LIN given the proximity to the city center. AZ's MXP hub failed because it's yield on MXP feeders were so low given that the local traffic shunned MXP and continued flying directly to LIN. This prompted AZ to move it's hub back to FCO.

Before 1995, YMX was a long-haul / leisure charter and cargo airport. YUL was a domestic and transborder airport. There are many parallels to be drawn between the MIL and YMQ stories.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:46 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 13):
The comparison to YMX is completely valid.

There's a big difference. YUL had the capacity to handle all of YMX's longhaul traffic. That's never been an option for LIN.

YMX should never have been built, while there was no option but to build MXP. Otherwise, the wealthiest market in Italy and largest business market would never have had any longhaul service. That wasn't the case for Montreal as YUL could easily handle longhaul flights.
 
cslusarc
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
YMX should never have been built,

In all respect, Transport Canada was projecting explosive growth at YMQ that never came as newer technology made airplanes with longer range, the Boeing 767 and Airbus 310 allowed more cities the ability to support cost effective intercontinental and the Canadian centre of power shifted westward to YTO. None of these factors seem applicable to MIL.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Glareskin
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:01 am

I always thought it was a stupid move of AZ to move away from MXP and concentrate on FCO. I think now that all the big European legacies are going to focus on LIN this will be more true then ever.
Already every time I fly LH or KL on international flights the C cabin is full with Italians. And I understand why. If they get better service and a better network with Lufthansa and KLM why not fly to their hubs instead of Rome. I am pretty sure this move costs Alitalia a lot of high-yield passengers.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 12):
Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million).

Do you know how many pax per year in Bergamo?
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:01 am

Air France & Alitalia will operate a quasi-shuttle between CDG and LIN with 10 x Daily flights (6 operated by AF and 4 by AZ). 9 flights / day will be operated on week ends (Sa & Su).
 
r2rho
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:11 am

Quoting glareskin (Reply 16):
Do you know how many pax per year in Bergamo?

7.6million in 2010, 7million in 2009.
 
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Mikey86
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:31 pm

Makes perfect sense to me! If there isnt much connecting traffic through MXP, then LIN is a better. Not counting any codeshare/partner agreements AF might have, LIN would be more beneficial due to its location in Milan. Having agreements would be just a place.
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:46 pm

And didn't AB leave MXP earlier this year? I know I flew em from DUS-MXP in April, but now it's not showing up on their route network.
 
Humberside
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 13):
The comparison to YMX is completely valid. The local OD markets from LIN within a 0-4 hour range is mostly concentrated in LIN, leaving MXP as a mostly Long-Haul and cargo airport.

But MXP has a very significant short haul Easyjet operation, while YMX was before low cost airlines were anything other than niche operators
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
cslusarc
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:32 pm

I think at MXP there is a opportunity for U2 to expand further with long haul intercontinental flying on wide bodies.

Does anyone have any details on the average gauge size of planes at LIN?
Is there a possibility for deployment of wide bodies between CDG and LIN?
What is the future for AX between ORY and LIN? Is it likely that these frequencies could be shifted to CDG - LIN for better yield?
Is there a long term future for AX to operate a limited number of long-haul flights at MXP? Or would it be better for all Skyteam flying to MXP be transferred to AX's partners?
--cslusarc from YWG
 
LIPZ
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:36 am

AF will add 1 more flight between CDG and LIN by S12 (from 6 to 7 daily).
http://airlineroute.net/2011/09/02/af-cdglin-s12/

In addition AZ will keep serving both CDG 4xD and ORY 3xD out of Linate.
Total flights between Milan and Paris by AZ/AF will go up to 14xD
 
JL418
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RE: Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP

Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
Thank you. I wonder if they will last.

I read some LFs on several forums some time ago and they were actually pretty good, especially now that they are using the A332 on some routes with its new, top-class interiors. Malpensa has a nice long-haul network especially for Asia and yields are said to be high: CX upgraded its 77W service to daily from 4xw this summer, Jet's daily to DEL has already reached BEP after months of being opened, the Gulf carriers are thriving and Air China too. The market's there, what we lack is a proper hub carrier and some decent political management.

Quoting glareskin (Reply 16):
I always thought it was a stupid move of AZ to move away from MXP and concentrate on FCO. I think now that all the big European legacies are going to focus on LIN this will be more true then ever.
Already every time I fly LH or KL on international flights the C cabin is full with Italians. And I understand why. If they get better service and a better network with Lufthansa and KLM why not fly to their hubs instead of Rome. I am pretty sure this move costs Alitalia a lot of high-yield passengers.

I guess it's also a question of habit and number of connection. AZ is improving steadily - and I'm no AZ fan nor employee.it's offering lie-flat beds in J class, something LH isn't, and economy seats on the A332 are very good. Catering is still nice and that was probably the only good thing of the old AZ. People flies on AZ from MXP on its 3 intercontinental services... I guess it's just a question of connections and frequencies. Moreover now AZ is part of the transatlantic JV with AF-KLM and Delta so I guess that 25% of the earnings are hers to enjoy as well, even if the Milanese industrial tycoon is flying out of Linate on AF.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 22):
Does anyone have any details on the average gauge size of planes at LIN?
Is there a possibility for deployment of wide bodies between CDG and LIN?

I think that no airplanes bigger than A321's or 73W's are allowed. Linate is regulated by a decree that is limiting the slots available to each carrier but everyone is playing tricks with it. AZ has 5 or something phantom AOCs and she's selling frequencies to AF; BA might use Meridiana's ones, if they'd like to. Politicians do nothing because everyone thinks that Linate is the "true" airport of the city and the fail to understand the implications of such laissez-faire in terms of missed connections with the rest of the world, especially North America.