PA515
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New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:24 am

Welcome to the 101st New Zealand Aviation Thread. In thread #100 New Zealand Aviation Thread #100! we discussed:
  • - Air NZ AKL-HKG-LHR
  • - Rugby World Cup extra flights etc
  • - Snow / Ice disruptions
  • - ZK-OJK returning on lease
  • - Air NZ codeshare possibilities
  • - HLZ runway extension
  • - Air NZ 77W Premium Economy reconfiguration
  • - Air NZ ATR72 replacement
  • - Air NZ 1900D replacement/upgrade
  • - DHL 757's
  • - Air NZ 763 performance
  • - ZK-OAB lightning strike
  • - Possible Air NZ Bond issue
  • - QF ZK-ZQH delivery
  • - True Origin Destination statistics
  • - ZK-NGF to be parted out
  • - Daily CX 744's from 27th Nov
  • - A320NEO
  • - Air NZ Annual Result
  • - Air NZ Longhaul Review by Christmas
  • - 77W 10 abreast / 9 abreast
  • - Rob Fyfe DUD-CHC
  • - Air NZ AKL-NRT 763
  • - Air NZ WLG-AKL bad trip report


[Edited 2011-09-01 04:35:11]

[Edited 2011-09-01 04:38:18]
 
cchan
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:01 am

Quoting PA515 (Thread starter):
Air NZ Longhaul Review by Christmas

Any chance this would involve a 777 order?
 
BlackLabel
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting NZ6:
Nope, it's about making it better, seats to suit has been a success with NZ taking all the market growth on the Tasman, if it can do something similar long haul then fantastic. It may not be the same 3 options, it might be way left field but lets wait and see.

I'm not convinced by this (yet). I'm sure if you asked Telecom they'd tell you their broadband and telephone service is a great success because everyone has one. When people have little choice in the matter it's hardly a success. The market growth is interesting and I'll be watching this carefully, although I've seen a lot of NZ frequent flyers moving away...

Quoting cchan:
Apart from NZ having more professional crew and AVOD (for those who need it), I think even ET (Ethiopian Airlines) offers a better Y product than NZ. The ET flight to ADD was so much more enjoyable than the NZ AKL-HKG flight I took before. At least, I didn't have to try to pack all my stuff into 1 bag, and I didn't get hungry on the ET flight.

That's the third time I've heard someone compare NZ to ET this week -- and say that ET is better. Why is everyone flying ET lately?!
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting PA515 (Thread starter):
Air NZ Longhaul Review by Christmas
Quoting cchan (Reply 1):
Any chance this would involve a 777 order?

I doubt that it is that kind of review.

My expectations are that we will see most of the following:

1) All 777 aircraft reconfigured to 10 abreast Y and with Spaceseats.
2) Discontinuation of 763 services to HNL and PPT, and codesharing on the local carriers. (Unfortunately for me, at that point I lose the last remaining incentives to fly NZ instead of Virgin Australia and partners).
3) Japan services consolidated as 763 only, with the Seats To Suit model, and loss of Airpoints earning on most economy fares.
4) China services consolidated as 763 only, with the Seats To Suit model, and loss of Airpoints earning on most economy fares.
5) Discontinuation of HKG-LHR.
6) Retention of existing service levels to North America and to LHR via LAX.
7) No additional 777 acquisition.
8) Accelerated retirement of the 747 fleet.
9) No long-haul from or through Australia.

In short:
All A320 and 767 services - Seats To Suit
Long-range 777 and 747 services to retain full-service model.
 
DLNZ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
2) Discontinuation of 763 services to HNL and PPT, and codesharing on the local carriers. (Unfortunately for me, at that point I lose the last remaining incentives to fly NZ instead of Virgin Australia and partners).

I'm a big Hawaii proponent just like yourself, and would love to see HA enter the AKL-HNL market. Until then I can't imagine NZ pulling out of the route.

I would love to see DL enter the route with a 763 also, connecting pax in HNL to direct services to LAX, ATL, SLC, SFO etc. Attractive 1 stop option if you ask me.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
4) China services consolidated as 763 only, with the Seats To Suit model, and loss of Airpoints earning on most economy fares.

763 would be severely payload handicapped, particularly to PEK, so I don't see this happening. Japan service I agree completely.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:37 am

Quoting dlnz (Reply 4):
I'm a big Hawaii proponent just like yourself, and would love to see HA enter the AKL-HNL market. Until then I can't imagine NZ pulling out of the route.

I don't think that the airline has managed its HNL route well the last couple of years.

The exchange rate has gone from NZ$1 = US$0.60 to NZ$1 = US$0.85 today.

The number of seats sold from Australia to Honolulu has now trebled in five years. (Many of the AC seats were sold SYD-YVR, not HNL previously).

I would think that AKL-HNL should probably now be a daily route for Air New Zealand. Admittedly possibly with Seats To Suit.

But as long as it remains 2-3 times weekly, the market won't grow and the possibility of HA replacing NZ will remain.
 
cchan
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:59 am

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 2):
Why is everyone flying ET lately?!

40kg luggage for Y, 50kg luggage for J, and they are cheaper than KQ

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
1) All 777 aircraft reconfigured to 10 abreast Y and with Spaceseats.

It has been mentioned that the 772 cabin width would not allow 10 abreast, so they would stay 9 abreast.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
4) China services consolidated as 763 only, with the Seats To Suit model, and loss of Airpoints earning on most economy fares.

Do the 763 have the range to do AKL-PEK?

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
8) Accelerated retirement of the 747 fleet.

They should do that, considering most of these aircrafts are sitting on the ground in AKL most of the time.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:44 am

From the airport today
A6-EDN flew in with the word cup today, sporting a rather nice (read large) livery decal(first special livery for A380..) and got a water spary from the E-R team.

Air New Zealand has got all staff in the new uniform. I think it looks good en masse, albeit a bit upmarket for "seats to suit" style carrier...

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 2):
That's the third time I've heard someone compare NZ to ET this week -- and say that ET is better. Why is everyone flying ET lately?!

It's worth flying them for star alliance points... you as a NZer could become gold faster on ET than NZ ... 

I think the 77W should be standardised as our longhaul aircraft until the 787 arrives. Way more cargo revenue than a 744, let alone a 77E. Sure there are extra seats, but those extra seats can be used to develop and grow markets with some decent lead in fares because the cargo revenue should make the flights profitable. As we know = the NZ base fare to many markets is unsustainably high.

Let's face it a 77W could be justified currently on booked loads alone to SFO/HKG/YVR with the current climate (another 4-5 77Ws worth in fact), and once "seats to suit" introduced has enough seats to make it viable for others too. the 77W has been a roaring success for just about every carrier that orders them. VA have had issues more due to not speccing their cargo holds correctly and therefore limiting the outsize cargo they can take..IMO

This leaves the 772s to be reconfigured to meet specifically China/Japan and any other developing markets such as Brazil.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
cchan
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:53 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 7):
Air New Zealand has got all staff in the new uniform. I think it looks good en masse, albeit a bit upmarket for "seats to suit" style carrier...

Maybe NZ can make further fuel savings by clothing selected staff in bikini instead of the full uniform?  
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 7):
It's worth flying them for star alliance points... you as a NZer could become gold faster on ET than NZ ... 

ET is not a Star member yet.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:06 pm

Quoting cchan (Reply 8):
ET is not a Star member yet.

it is near enough to it now it will be by the end of the year . Besides LH Miles and More can be earned for ET flights I think.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
PA515
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:32 pm

Quoting PA515 (Thread starter):
- Air NZ AKL-NRT 763

Some of the 763 capacity on AKL-NRT is diverted from AKL-KIX-AKL which is a Thu only 763 until late Oct, with a Mon and Sat AKL-NRT-KIX-AKL 763 or 77E. A 77W was used on an AKL-SYD NZ101 and an AKL-NAN last month.

The previously scheduled AKL-NRT Daily 744 from mid Dec is now changed to a Daily 77E. The 744 has been swapped with the Mon Tue Thu Sat AKL-LAX-AKL 77E until the 5th 77W replaces it on 10th Feb. AKL-KIX is showing as a three weekly 763 from late Oct, four weekly from late Nov and five weekly from mid Dec.

Quoting cchan (Reply 1):
Quoting PA515 (Thread starter):
Air NZ Longhaul Review by Christmas

Any chance this would involve a 777 order?

Don't think so. Air NZ's Chief Financial Officer recently said they want some of the 789 order delivered earlier. He said they decided to keep two 744's until the 789 is delivered instead of getting more 77W's. Air NZ had five 789's due in FY2014 and another three by 2016. There is about another 6 month delay to that. They also have eight 789's on option and eight purchase rights. It seems Air NZ does not anticipate additional longhaul capacity before 2014.

Quoting cchan (Reply 6):
It has been mentioned that the 772 cabin width would not allow 10 abreast, so they would stay 9 abreast.

Air Austral (UU) has 10 abreast on the 77E. Their 77E has 4 (7 abreast), 34 (9 abreast), 316 (10 abreast) with a cabin width of 5.91m. Their 77W's are 18 (7 abreast), 40 (8 abreast), 384 (10 abreast) with a cabin width of 6.20m.

http://www.air-austral.com/en/about-air-austral/fleet.html

PA515
 
A330NZ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:03 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 10):
Air Austral (UU) has 10 abreast on the 77E

Wow... The passengers must feel like sardines!
 
cchan
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:27 am

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 11):
Wow... The passengers must feel like sardines!

I guess if the passengers are used to traveling on African buses, they would feel rather comfortable.
 
NTLDaz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:32 am

I guess if the passengers are used to traveling on African buses, they would feel rather comfortable.

Reunion is not really what you would call African ( so to speak ). It is a quite cosmopolitan department of France.
 
nascarnut
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:02 pm

Hawaiian Airlines 767-300 N593HA currently sitting in Air NZ hanger in AKL looking very nice in Air Canada colours. Aircraft has AC tail number 692. Hopefully they will push it out of hanger to get some nice shots of it.
Also sitting down there is Qantas 747-400ER VH-OEF QF17 SYD-EZE aircraft that diverted to AKL Saturday night. Currently scheduled to depart for EZE @ 1159 this morning.
 
alangirvan
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 11):
Quoting PA515 (Reply 10):
Air Austral (UU) has 10 abreast on the 77E

Wow... The passengers must feel like sardines!

From the report of a person who used Air Austral to fly between Australia and Mauritius - sardines is an accurate description. Many of the French long haul carriers use high density configurations - if you ride a Corsair 747-400 the seats are very close together.
 
joelyboy911
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 15):
From the report of a person who used Air Austral to fly between Australia and Mauritius - sardines is an accurate description. Many of the French long haul carriers use high density configurations - if you ride a Corsair 747-400 the seats are very close together.

The seats on UU are meant to be like sardines. They make no bones about being cheap - Air New Zealand is a different story, and I imagine you'll find NZ's 10 abreast to be significantly more comfortable than the others that have so oft been maligned on this forum. It is certainly streets ahead of AF's - which is the only other I have actually flown on. It's simply not apples with apples to compare UU and NZ.

I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not. It has good service in all classes, with a pretty darn nice J and quite good P. I think they have been wise to know that their routes do not have a market for luxurious Y service and have focussed on optimising cost in Y while improving standards of P and J, and offering the skycouch for Y with a little something extra.

Now if it is true that the sidewalls in the 77E are thicker (substantially, that is) NZ should consider whether the aisles will have enough width to allow a trouble free service. The seats are comfortable enough. If not, I think they would be well-advised to install the same seats and let the width go back into the aisle -IMO it wouldn't be sensible to install different seats on the two 777 models, for consistency reasons.
Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 14):
Also sitting down there is Qantas 747-400ER VH-OEF QF17 SYD-EZE aircraft that diverted to AKL Saturday night. Currently scheduled to depart for EZE @ 1159 this morning.

for those of you who miss it, there will be an opportunity tomorrow 6th, and 8th due to dropping in for RWC, OEF is scheduled for all flights.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
SCL767
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 17):
for those of you who miss it, there will be an opportunity tomorrow 6th, and 8th due to dropping in for RWC, OEF is scheduled for all flights.

LAN is also operating extra flights into AKL for the RWC, (both flights will continue onwards to SYD). Departing SCL on September 4th:

LA803 SCL - AKL 00:35 04:45 +1 A-343
LA801 SCL - AKL 23:50 04:00 +2 A-343

Departs SCL on September 8th:
LA803 SCL - AKL 11:00 15:10 +1 A-343
LA801 SCL - AKL 23:50 04:00 +2 A-343
 
767er
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):

I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not. It has good service in all classes, with a pretty darn nice J and quite good P

Well said...................
Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not. It has good service in all classes, with a pretty darn nice J and quite good P. I think they have been wise to know that their routes do not have a market for luxurious Y service and have focussed on optimising cost in Y while improving standards of P and J, and offering the skycouch for Y with a little something extra.

It is a fact that NZ is losing competitiveness in a few areas. Their FFP is a good example. I think people are entitled to their own opinions and this is what this forum is for. The airline would be too elegant if all it wanted to hear were compliments. I don't think this is who NZ is. Bruce Parton made a few changes to the trans-Tasman products after listening to a lot of complaints on another forum. I know Kiwis can be very understanding and fly their national carrier no matter what but if everyone is like that the airline will lose incentives to improve products and services. No one wants to see that.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 14):
Hawaiian Airlines 767-300 N593HA currently sitting in Air NZ hanger in AKL looking very nice in Air Canada colours. Aircraft has AC tail number 692. Hopefully they will push it out of hanger to get some nice shots of it.

Yes I saw that today. Is this a regular customer for NZ or is it a one off? Agree the colours looked great - wish they sent a few 77Ls down our way on a regular basis.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
They make no bones about being cheap - Air New Zealand is a different story, and I imagine you'll find NZ's 10 abreast to be significantly more comfortable than the others that have so oft been maligned on this forum.

The 10 abreast thing isn't as big a deal to me as the seat pitch reduction from 34 to 32 inch. I've flown EK's 77Ws more times than I care to remember and have never noticed it to be considerably narrower. Not sure what EK's pitch is, but I'm usually so busy with their amazing entertainment system/food and bev service that it's never been an issue.

That's the thing though - if you take with one hand, you kinda have to give back with the other to keep pax from kicking up a fuss. I think most passengers are reasonably understanding of this - sure you narrow the width of my seat (or not, as they're actually the same as the 744s right?) but you cut my seat pitch and what do I get in return? It certainly isn't cheaper fares.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not.

There, I disagree with you. NZ is a taxpayer owned airline (for how much longer, I know not). It's shareprice is lousy and in the past 15 years has destroyed an enormous amount of shareholder value. It made necessary (well, forced really) changes post Ansett and seemed to be ahead of the curve in the industry. But with Fyfe, the airline has become more about hype, image and PR than substance. And it's losing a million a week on international services.

Seems to me the airline is heading down the route of Qantas, but is about ten years behind. Share of international traffic eroding, little route development, virtual monopoly on domestic routes making it fat and lazy, targeting premium passengers (fine in the good times but lousy business in the rough times) - all at a time when it appears the core markets of North America and Europe are entering into a long-term period of economic malaise. Meanwhile efforts in Asia are either non-existent (south east Asia anyone?) or sputtering (Japan, China).

Then you have the product inconsistencies, a rapidly declining frequent flyer scheme, and NZ's own positioning as a... what... premium airline? LCC? Something inbetween? It all makes for a confusing strategy, not helped by the airline's own propensity for self-promotion, that to date has done nothing to increase shareholder (including taxpayer) wealth - their core responsibility.

And anyway, Jetstar and Qantas get a fair bit of knocks in this forum too.

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 20):
I know Kiwis can be very understanding and fly their national carrier no matter what but if everyone is like that the airline will lose incentives to improve products and services. No one wants to see that.

Agreed.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 7):
Air New Zealand has got all staff in the new uniform. I think it looks good en masse, albeit a bit upmarket for "seats to suit" style carrier...

Yes I saw that. Have to admit that it's not as bad as I was expecting. Though the pattern on the women's blouse is pretty amateurish - fern here, koru there, plane symbol even? From a distance ok, but up close was a bit hokey. Didn't really notice the men's uniform which is probably a good thing.

One thing though - the women's hat - OMG is it awful! it looks like a polar fleece you'd get from the Kathmandu bargain bin. Has this weird wrap around thing that just looks, well, odd. Made me think of the old new uniform as almost... dare I say it... classy?

Overall, it feels like they've gone from 1960s Thunderbirds to 1970s bank teller. Can't wait for the next iteration... 1980s fashion magazine editor? GLOSSSSSSSSS!

Fashion critique over  
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:03 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not

Joelyboy, my argument is not that Air NZ needs to be the Bentley of the Skies.

My argument has two main prongs:

1) Good profits can be made in Economy Class if your Economy Class can command high-enough yielding fare levels. That requires the service to meet or exceed certain quality levels.

2) The Business class and Premium Economy passengers of the future are the Economy Class passengers of today. But an airline needs to offer them a good product and good frequent flyer accrual (via FLYING, not shopping) if it wants them to be its frequent Business class passengers in the future.

Unfortunately I think that Air New Zealand is struggling in both those key directions. There is a short-termism and compartmentalisation going on which leads to incorrect conclusions, two examples being:

1) I showed several threads ago that S2S could only deliver greater profits than the old two-class model if average loads on all flights exceeded 96%. This has not happened, but a completely separate development has sidelined Virgin as a major Tasman competitor, and S2S is already being given credit for progress it has not actually been responsible for.

2) Airpoints is being lauded as a success because of the high general population take up, which is because supermarket chains are buying Airpoints. But this doesn't actually work as an airline loyalty tool but rather a supermarket loyalty tool - in terms of economy flying (i.e. 100% of domestic flyers and 75% of international ones) the program no longer incentivises the purchase of Air New Zealand tickets. Again, the airline's management is patting itself on the back for short-term commercial benefits which have nothing to do with airline loyalty.

It is all starting to remind me of Vivendi. For those of you unfamiliar with the story, Vivendi is a 150 year old French water company (General Water Company), whose management wished they were running a media conglomerate rather than a water company. By the late 1990s they were running a media conglomerate with startling incompetence and actually offloaded their water business in July 2000. By 2002 they had a media empire, but were running at a Euro 23.3 billion annual loss.

The directors need to decide whether Airpoints is a supermarket loyalty scheme or a frequent flyer program. And they need to decide whether the airline needs to operate an Economy Class which will retain loyalty among their future premium passengers.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not. It has good service in all classes, with a pretty darn nice J and quite good P.

I agree, it gets a bit relentless.

I suppose what concerns me is that so little attention is paid to the negative environment in which the airline has to operate. The Australian economy is okay but NZ is struggling and the US economy is close to a new recession.

On top of which there is the price of oil - and thus fuel - which is causing some havoc, at least for the US airlines. It is a period of very little growth and most US airlines are continuing to cut back capacity quite vigorously.

And while I agree with NZ's liberal aviation polices, they surely don't help the bottom line for Air NZ.

So - I think - it is remarkable that the airline has done as well as it has and can still be considered profitable.

mariner
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Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
The directors need to decide whether Airpoints is a supermarket loyalty scheme or a frequent flyer program. And they need to decide whether the airline needs to operate an Economy Class which will retain loyalty among their future premium passengers.

Excellent post Koruman; you've verbalised beautifully some concepts which I had only dimly perceived myself.

I'm a case in point. I have been a rabid "Air new Zealand-o-phile" - since about the age of 7 - which is close on 40 years. It's an airline I was once fiercely proud of. In that time I have progressed from aspiring to fly Y, to actually flying Y, to, in the last 10 years, regularly flying J. However, on a recent trip to Europe, I flew F class on EK. So a competing airline got the money that years ago I would have almost felt privileged to be giving to NZ.

Why? Pretty simple really. It no longer feels like "my" airline. The advertising (Rico); the product (10 abreast on Y, the overpriced Charlie-Foxtrot that is Y+); the stepwise downgrading of the airpoints scheme have for me, been like the death of a thousand cuts. So now I chose airlines largely based on convenience, and mood. Loyalty is toast.
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
2) Airpoints is being lauded as a success because of the high general population take up, which is because supermarket chains are buying Airpoints. But this doesn't actually work as an airline loyalty tool but rather a supermarket loyalty tool - in terms of economy flying (i.e. 100% of domestic flyers and 75% of international ones) the program no longer incentivises the purchase of Air New Zealand tickets. Again, the airline's management is patting itself on the back for short-term commercial benefits which have nothing to do with airline loyalty.

Agreed 100%. And look at how the loyalty manager describes Airpoints:

“To us the success of the Airpoints programme should be measured by how engaged customers are in earning and spending Airpoints Dollars.”

What does it even mean? I think he is just too afraid to say that the programme actually creates no loyalty by actually flying. The increased customer engagement is only because the recent retail and credit card companies signing up. Why? Because NZ enjoys a near monopoly in the domestic market and these banks have no other choice. Apart from Amex, no banks in New Zealand issues a card that earns FFP points with another airline. All of this is just saying Airpoints is just another version of Flybuys.
 
Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
I suppose what concerns me is that so little attention is paid to the negative environment in which the airline has to operate. The Australian economy is okay but NZ is struggling and the US economy is close to a new recession.

On top of which there is the price of oil - and thus fuel - which is causing some havoc, at least for the US airlines. It is a period of very little growth and most US airlines are continuing to cut back capacity quite vigorously.

And while I agree with NZ's liberal aviation polices, they surely don't help the bottom line for Air NZ.

All true - but from where I'm sitting as a PAX, NZ never seem to be struggling to fill their metal. Kudos to them for that, but my point is then that surely there is some fexibility to enhance the product a bit?
 
aerokiwi
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
and can still be considered profitable.

All of which, apparently, comes from its largely monopolistic domestic routes, though the $1 million loss per week quote may be referring to long haul, meaning the Tasman and Pacific contribute too.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
I suppose what concerns me is that so little attention is paid to the negative environment in which the airline has to operate. The Australian economy is okay but NZ is struggling and the US economy is close to a new recession.

Well, I've been trying and I think most implicitly acknowledged the market conditions. A focus on premium pax when major long haul markets are teetering on long term recession, debt crises, high unemployment, while NZ's faltering attempts at growth markets (Asia) and its lack of use of opportunities from Australia only raise doubts.

The only thing not really acknowledged much is the effect of the high kiwi dollar. So that dampens inbound demand, but boosts outbound demand as well as making a lot of things cheaper, like fuel. And oil prices have declined considerably in recent months from their peaks and are trending down, from the analysis I've read.

I think the Norris era was key for NZ. A shame he didn't stay longer.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 28):
I think the Norris era was key for NZ. A shame he didn't stay longer.

He was paid AU$16.1 million last year by CBA. I doubt he had the interest to stay.

Funny you should mention that, Rob Fyfe was talking as if it was him who turned the airline around from the Ansett fiasco. No mention of Ralph which I thought was a bit disrespectful.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 27):
All true - but from where I'm sitting as a PAX, NZ never seem to be struggling to fill their metal. Kudos to them for that, but my point is then that surely there is some fexibility to enhance the product a bit?

Air NZ may be filling the seats - but at what price?

As we saw in the three airline domestic debacle when Virgin Blue was flying here, an airline can fill seats, but at unprofitable fares. Nor can Air NZ be immune to the international fare wars.

I'm not saying everything in Air NZ's garden is coming up roses, but the relentless carping here does get a bit - relentless.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 28):
The only thing not really acknowledged much is the effect of the high kiwi dollar.

Indeed. I didn't mention that because it is painful to me, since I'm paid (mostly) in US dollars. But Im glad you brought it up.

mariner
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aerokiwi
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:57 am

Speaking of Norris, has anyone read the article on the Ansett collapse in the latest Australian Aviation? Fascinating stuff, though raised even more questions for me, like QF's role on NZ's board once Toomey came in, and how much the Kiwi Govt really knew. No one looks good, including SQ, but it looked like the big winner was Geoff Dixon, who appears to have manipulated the situation handily... aided by some extraordinary incompetence on the NZ/AN side of course.

Also, interesting that the SQ purchase of Virgin Atlantic played a role in the whole saga. And good to see the journo dispelling the myths about NZ asset stripped AN or loading it with debt. Definitely worth a read.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:06 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 25):
Why? Pretty simple really. It no longer feels like "my" airline.

Still feels like "My" airline to me, and I am more than happy to keep flying with them.
 
darenw
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 32):
Speaking of Norris, has anyone read the article on the Ansett collapse in the latest Australian Aviation?

Yes it was very interesting. The article said Ansett was on a downward spiral about 10 years before Air NZ took over
 
kiwiandrew

RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:26 am

Quoting darenw (Reply 34):
The article said Ansett was on a downward spiral about 10 years before Air NZ took over

at the risk of going OT, this shouldn't be news to anyone who was paying attention to AN from around the time of the QF/TN merger onwards.... probably best discussed in another thread though ( which will be immediately hijacked by those to whom everything was fine and dandy at AN and the only villain in the picture was NZ )
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I'm not saying everything in Air NZ's garden is coming up roses, but the relentless carping here does get a bit - relentless

Okay. Time to rattle off some some unqualified positives.

- With the right crew mix, their enthusiam, attentiveness, and intuition will provide an on-board experience better than any other airline in the world.
- The airline is innovative.
- It is safe.
- It has a modern fleet. The aircraft are kept clean
- Still flys the 763 across the tasman - my favourite Y class cabin
- Anecdotally has a great 'on-time' departure record
- Provides a portal for customer feedback
- No airline I've flown is as good at handling children
- For many years, it offered an above-average product in every class

 
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:01 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 36):
Okay. Time to rattle off some some unqualified positives.

 

I think the greatest positive is that it is still around. After the extraordinary capitalist games post Roger-nomics followed by the Ansett debacle, I think it's a wonder the airline is still here - and may have given new life to the (gentle) socialist in me.

I am very nervous about what may happen when the guv'mint starts hiving bits of it off.

mariner
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TravellerPlus
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:13 am

I note that that Air New Zealand's skytrax customer rating has dropped from 8.1 in January to 6.5 as of today. As a comparison Qantas is sitting on 7.6 (down from 8.0) and Jetstar is sitting on 6.2 (down from 6.4). Air New Zealand has traditionally scored higher than Qantas for many years.

I work work with statistics and I am aware of the significant issues with how Skytrax rankings are complied. Skytrax is not a representative sample. I am not going to comment on whether the ratings are fair, but the fact that people are feeling aggrieved enough to post poor reviews and rankings of Air NZ is a worrying trend. The main sources of disatisfacion seem to be the new premium economy and the new Tasman product.

A disatisfaction is an inevitable part of the change process, but the test will be whether Air New Zealand can gain more customers than it loses through the change process.
What goes around comes around....unless your luggage is not on the carousel...
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:17 am

And speaking of complaints, it was not a good day for Jetstar in the NZ Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10749350

"Kiwi chokes to death during flight

A woman watched in horror as her boyfriend choked and died while he ate a Jetstar in-flight meal.

She has told how she sat next to his body for the remainder of the 11-hour trip from Singapore to Auckland this week."


And which leads to this article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10747834

"Jetstar complainers fly straight to website"

Which links to this website:

http://www.dontflyjetstar.com/

I think the oddest one is the complaint that Jetstar lost someone's passport. Not to doubt what the complainant is saying, but it does seem - odd.

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:39 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 36):
Still flys the 763 across the tasman - my favourite Y class cabin

and the Pacific + Japan   

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
2) Airpoints is being lauded as a success because of the high general population take up, which is because supermarket chains are buying Airpoints. But this doesn't actually work as an airline loyalty tool but rather a supermarket loyalty tool - in terms of economy flying (i.e. 100% of domestic flyers and 75% of international ones) the program no longer incentivises the purchase of Air New Zealand tickets. Again, the airline's management is patting itself on the back for short-term commercial benefits which have nothing to do with airline loyalty.

I have to admit that 80-95% of my Airpoints earnings come from Globalplus credit card earnings + Flybuys conversions. When I fly with NZ internationally, if the fare class qualifies for mileage accumulation on a partner airline's FFP, I would credit the miles to the partner airline FFP, not Airpoints (because Airpoints basically gives me nothing more than an WLG-AKL ticket).

Of the two international routes I fly on most, AKL-HKG and AKL-RAR, the sole reason why I fly with NZ is that personally I prefer the 772 over CX's 343 with the hairdryers on the wings, and the 763/772/320 (in order of preference) over DJ's 73H. I have to admit that the product offering and frequent flyer benefit of NZ is inferior to CX, and about the same of DJ. But then, I am one of these crazy people on a.net who would care about what aircraft type I fly on, and ordinary passengers would not be bothered at all.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
I, for one, am tiring of this thread being constantly bashing NZ, I know we all want it to succeed and live up to our every dream as a global mega carrier with ultra-luxury service in every class but its simply not. It has good service in all classes, with a pretty darn nice J and quite good P.

I would call it constructive criticism. Most of the comments I have seen in this thread are constructive, rather than statements like "this airline should fold and give way to others".
 
Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:51 am

Quoting cchan (Reply 40):
I prefer the 772 over CX's 343 with the hairdryers on the wings

They are REALLY STRONG hairdryers though! Held too close, and they COULD cause hearing damage.

Quoting cchan (Reply 40):
I would call it constructive criticism. Most of the comments I have seen in this thread are constructive, rather than statements like "this airline should fold and give way to others".

I would too. However the people who work for the airline who have enough interest to be part of this site, I would suspect are precisely the people you would want crewing your next flight. And if they hear nothing but b1tching - pretty soon they'll be deaf to all feedback, constructive or not.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:38 am

I have my doubts about the claims that the airline is losing $1 million per week on its long-haul network.

There are effectively six different long-haul markets for Air New Zealand, as follows:

1) North American services, with high purchase levels of Business and Premium Economy tickets, and relatively high numbers of Star Alliance frequent flyers. Volumes static, yields stable.

2) UK services, with a similar profile to North American services. Volumes static and yields stable via LAX, both declining via HKG.

3) Japan services, with lower Premium Economy sales and Star Alliance flyers. Volumes declining, yields stable.

4) China services, with predominantly wholesaled Discount Economy ticket sales. Volumes growing, yields stable but very low.

5) Hong Kong services: Auckland stable in terms of yields and volumes, London shrinking in both.

6) AKL-HNL, AKL-PPT and LAX-RAR. Volumes and yields static for RAR and PPT, volumes and yields growing for HNL.

These are six distinct markets, and I am troubled at the prospect of a one-size-fits-all Seats 2 Suit-style "solution".

My preference still would be to see the China services and possibly Japan too operated by a subsidiary with a completely different business model to the North American routes.

As an Australia-based HVC, my options are different to those of passengers in a quasi-monopoly situation in New Zealand. If I'm utterly frank, the last things keeping me loyal to Air New Zealand are my annual Gold Elite upgrades (which I use on an extra family vacation where we pay PE and fly BP) and the ability to earn lots of status points on flights to HNL and PPT in Business class.

The tipping point for me to move more business than I already have to Virgin Australia and Qantas feels as if it is getting closer, and funnily enough having several years of banked Gold Elite is actually making me more not less inclined to fly on those carriers when they have more to offer me.

I've been flying Air New Zealand long-haul for over 30 years, and feel a strong connection to them. But I am tiring of the poor business decisions that the management continue to make.

Fot the last five years I have been arguing that they should be using 77E or 77L aircraft on BNE-LAX, BNE-SFO, MEL-LAX and MEL-SFO. And I keep hearing "no, long-haul is doing fine, we can just shrink and survive the global financial crisis." And I have kept questioning how on earth anyone can make a profit with a market of inbound Economy Class package tourists from China.

And I have an awful nagging feeling that I was right all along.

And on the subject of Australia-USA services, Air NZ is now a cornerstone investor in Virgin Australia. And I cannot see how Virgin Australia can do better out of its DL alliance across the Pacific than it would with Air NZ.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:01 am

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 16):
The seats on UU are meant to be like sardines.

Take a look at this trip report from a trusted trip reporter on this forum:
Loisirs Avec Air Austral: Réunion-Sydney-Nouméa (by ronerone Feb 4 2011 in Trip Reports)

You'll have to scroll to the comments but he states that the legroom of 32" would be more of the problem than the width of the seat.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 21):
Yes I saw that today. Is this a regular customer for NZ or is it a one off? Agree the colours looked great - wish they sent a few 77Ls down our way on a regular basis.

Having pre-returning checks I think. The MX contract is with HA and this plane is being sent back to AC.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
macilree
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:55 am

Among the thousands of diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks is a cable from the US Embassy in Wellington dated 13 February 2009 about the Boeing campaign to sell aircraft to Air New Zealand.

Although, I view what Wikileaks has now done as grossly irresponsible with respect to security matters, since this particular cable is now in the public arena and somewhat historic ...

I will leave it for others to comment whether the pricing indicated is of any significance. I am not sure that it is.

[Edited 2011-09-04 02:16:49]

[Edited 2011-09-04 02:57:49]
John Macilree
 
macilree
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:13 am

The August 2011 issue of the IATA magazine Airlines International has an interview with Rob Fyfe.
John Macilree
 
kiwiandrew

RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:24 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):

And speaking of complaints, it was not a good day for Jetstar in the NZ Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10749350

"Kiwi chokes to death during flight

I have to admit that I am not a big fan of Jetstar, I work on the periphery of the industry and we receive huge volumes of complaints from people who feel that Jetstar have handled their situations poorly. Having said that, I don't see how any airline can be at fault for someone choking to death on one of their meals ( assuming that that the choking was not related to inappropriate content in the meal such as toxins that may cause someone's throat to swell shut) I find it hard to hold deathstar responsible for this one, as appalling as I find their general attitude towards their customers in times of irregular ops.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:03 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 42):
But I am tiring of the poor business decisions that the management continue to make.

It happens. People change once favoured airlines all the time, as in this thread:

Quoting gasman (Reply 25):
However, on a recent trip to Europe, I flew F class on EK. So a competing airline got the money that years ago I would have almost felt privileged to be giving to NZ.

Until I was thirty, I would only fly BOAC, but then I grew up.

Quoting macilree (Reply 44):
Among the thousands of diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks is a cable from the US Embassy in Wellington dated 13 February 2009 about the Boeing campaign to sell aircraft to Air New Zealand.

I don't find anything disturbing in the cable. At face value and based on rumorus of what other airlines have paid, the price for the 787's seems high for such an early customer, but rumour is the only guide I have.

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Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
Until I was thirty, I would only fly BOAC, but then I grew up.

...... which reminds me of a LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN trip I once did in one go on a VC-10. 10 abreast on a 77W would have been absolute paradise in comparison to that nightmare!
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:16 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 48):
...... which reminds me of a LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN trip I once did in one go on a VC-10. 10 abreast on a 77W would have been absolute paradise in comparison to that nightmare!

Each to their own. I loved the VC-10. My first ever flight on one (JFK-LHR - admittedly up the front) sticks in my mind as one of my memorable flights. It's over forty years ago and I can still remember the menu - I had the roast duck.  

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Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread #101

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:24 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):
My first ever flight on one (JFK-LHR - admittedly up the front

I think the "frontness" side of things might be quite relevant, yes.  

That was my only experience on the VC-10. The outbound trip was on an NZ DC-10 - in those days still only 8 abreast in Y - a wholly different experience!