mplsjefe
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Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:22 am

Since it looks like Southwest is going to give its ex-AirTran 717s back to Boeing much sooner than when the leases expire, would these be a good option for Delta?

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...1/08/southwest-boeing-717/545260/1

Delta has been buying up used MD90s, and with the recent 737-900 orders they are still in need of a smaller dc-9, old md-80 and a319 replacement; Delta is very well acquainted with the DC9/MD80 family and this would seem to be a good fit.

Also, this would possibly be a huge cost saver and the planes would be available at a discount and also likely sooner than an order for other 100 seat aircraft like the Bombardier CSeries (as often predicted as a replacement by other Anetters).

These airframes are not that old and would be viable for many years to come, Like the MD90, would Delta be wiling to buy these at a discount and forgo an order for newer and more efficient replacements?

Thoughts?
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:28 am

I actually think the 717 would be a good fit for Delta, and it would open up the opportunity to acquire the Saudia MD-90s as well due to common cockpit.
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n901wa
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:37 am

That would be Cool. I think the 717 would be a good fit for Delta.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:52 am

IIRC Air Tran's 717s use Rolls Royce engines. If so, DL might not be thrilled to add an additional engine type that they would need to maintain. But then again, they also operate a fleet of seven 777-200ERs with a distinct engine type (RR Trents).
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:53 am

I do not see Delta picking up the 717s unless they rethink their entire strategy that's pretty much laid out through 2020. Here are a few reasons.

They are not in the position of adding capacity and this is straight from RA in an employee Q&A following the 739 order. They flat out said those frames are not meant to be a direct replacement to a specific seating segment hence why they said they will be backfilling for 757s, 320s, and 767s (yes they even included the 76Qs). They made it quite clear that even with the new orders, they want the overall fleet to remain flat-a/c exit and more come on-overtime.

Second to that is if they are to keep that strategy, they will have to start getting rid on 88s sooner than the current timeframe of 2017/18ish. Can they do this? Sure but it will go against their whole balancing act of age/ownership/operating costs. I can tell you right now that although the 717 may be more fuel efficient than an MD88, they can make up the cost through more seats. This is just the way the company thinkgs now and there's nothing wrong with that. DL's standard capacity on their 88s will be 16FC 133 YC. They essentially added like 9 "virtual a/c" as they call it with the added seats when everything is complete.

Third. They already have an answer to the lost DC9 capacity and those are the MD90s which you already stated but let's go to Delta's thinking again. They've added seats from their original config when the fleet only stood at 16 frames. Cap. is 16FC 144YC, the exact same as their 738s. So in their eyes, although overall fleet count is down, they are trying to maintainavailable seats in a very cheap way. Nothing wrong with this and makes good business sense. They also have a HUGE large RJ fleet (E170s/175s, CR7s/9s) that they use to their full advantage.

Off my soapbox but I don't see them moving for these frames. With the way DL runs the fleet now, I think they will look at the cost to operate vs. available seats AND make a comparisson to say the MD88 and say no thank you   . I do believe WN has essentially done the same thing.
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seabosdca
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:55 am

Delta recently has expressed a strong preference for buying aircraft to hold for the long term (just look at Anderson's remarks, the buyouts of leased 752s and 763s, etc.) I think the only way this could possibly happen is if Boeing (are they the lessor on all the frames?) decided to sell the frames to Delta at a very steep discount. The 717, between higher maintenance costs and low seat count, doesn't seem as attractive for Delta as the MD-90. Honestly, an order of new C100s seems like a better proposition, at least unless the GTFs turn out to be maintenance-intensive.

I think the 717s will end up with an operator somewhere like Russia, India, or Indonesia, where funds are tight, traffic is growing quickly, and new market entrants have a better shot at success.

[Edited 2011-09-01 17:59:23]
 
gigneil
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:56 am

They WILL be acquiring a 100 seat aircraft. And they are in fact 100 seat aircraft.

But I am not sure they are competitive with the E195 or CSeries.

NS
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:08 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):

Exactly.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 6):

I know for a fact I'm in the minority but I don't see Delta making a move for that market but that's just my opinion. Just based on their philosophies as of late and I don't mean what I read on here or the net but from what I see and brief from the company personally on a near daily basis. Of course this can change in the future with new leadership but with Ed set to take the wheel when RA retires, I'm not too sure of this.

With that said, my personal feelings is that they won't be taking on anything smaller than the 88 and the closest thing will be the largest version on the C-Series.
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mplsjefe
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:24 am

Will delta just ignore the 100+ seat market itself and continue to use its smaller contractors (i.e. comair, mesaba, etc) to fill that need. Is that more cost effective?

I will say that I think it is odd to think that a 150 seat MD-90 would replace a 100-130 seat DC9 . . . especially in the DC9 routes that this forum seems to believe that delta is promoting or going to discontinue.

If truly these routes could sustain 50% more passengers, why not upgrade those planes to older 757s or others many years before?
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:26 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 7):
I know for a fact I'm in the minority but I don't see Delta making a move for that market but that's just my opinion.

Hey I feel you. They always seemed to go for bigger.

NS
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 8):
Will delta just ignore the 100+ seat market itself and continue to use its smaller contractors (i.e. comair, mesaba, etc) to fill that need. Is that more cost effective?

They aren't. I'm just saying that I don't see Delta going that small. And a/c the size of the 717 or CS100 that is. IMHO, their 100+ seat market is more along the lines of an a/c the size of the MD80s. They allow far greater flexibility as far as rotue applications.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 8):
I will say that I think it is odd to think that a 150 seat MD-90 would replace a 100-130 seat DC9 . . . especially in the DC9 routes that this forum seems to believe that delta is promoting or going to discontinue.

Again, I think folks are missing the mark here. The MD90s are not intended to be a direct replacement for the now gone 30s/40s and soon to be 50s. To think that an a/c with the exact same seating capacity as a 738 will be direct replacement for an a/c that had a max capacity that is less than 25 pax less than the MD90/738 (and that's on the high end i.e. the 50s) is a little too straight and narrow.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 8):
If truly these routes could sustain 50% more passengers, why not upgrade those planes to older 757s or others many years before?

I don't see Delta flying 757s between Atlanta and Greer much less DTW and some of the smaller markets that now see a mix of 50s and CR7s/9s. This is about flexibility and growing your fleet at neglibible costs. The money spend on the MD90s is several million a peice from what I hear and on top of that they are adding more seats. So it's the same scenario were they are growing the fleet through aquisitions of physical frames plus the added seating capacity. Don't look at this as a direct replacement for anything.
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gigneil
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:51 am

I don't understand why people always think an aircraft must be directly replaced.

NS
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:55 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):
Hey I feel you. They always seemed to go for bigger.

I truly think that if the CS300 lives up to what BBD projects, it may have a bright future with the likes of AA/DL/UA, AA and UA especially because current scope requirments. I say UA because i'm not sure what the future of their large RJs will be with UA and CO pilots taking a hard line on the issue.
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catiii
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:58 am

This may be the Machiavellian in me, but why would FL/WN hand back aircraft to a lessor to allow them to be snapped up by what is becoming their chief competitor and used against them? Is there any precedent for lesse returns with conditions on follow on leases or sales by the lessor? I mean, if I were WN and I knew Boeing really wanted my business in the future, I might try and create those conditions.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
The 717, between higher maintenance costs and low seat count, doesn't seem as attractive for Delta as the MD-90. Honestly, an order of new C100s seems like a better proposition, at least unless the GTFs turn out to be maintenance-intensive.

I 100% agree with this logic.

Although I suspect the CS300 would be a better fit for DL.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
I don't understand why people always think an aircraft must be directly replaced.

Ditto.

Quoting catiii (Reply 13):
if I were WN and I knew Boeing really wanted my business in the future, I might try and create those conditions.

Why would WN/FL care if Boeing sold or leased the less economical aircraft to a competitor? I would think WN/FL would chuckle in glee! It isn't as if DL couldn't buy new aircraft easily. Compared to the C-series, unless Bombardier misses promise, the 717 just won't be competitive.

My thought is why would DL buy more old generation aircraft right before the new engines arrive? But I'm such an engine nut that I might be biased...

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mplsjefe
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:19 am

The very strong arguments here for Delta to buy new, more efficient aircraft, all make sense . . .

but the fact that they are acquiring used MD-90s and are opting for the now 'old" engine 737-900s makes those same arguments complicated. If they are replacing old md80s, a320s and dc9s, the MD90 is bigger and there is no guarantee that those extra seats will be filled. Also, without buying a320neos or the Boeing equivalent for the next fleet refit, does Delta really care so much about upfront costs or more for long-term bottom line? especially when they can dump the discounted and used jets once orders for the neo, etc open up?

Just being the Devil's advocate here . . .
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:24 am

The MD90 is only moderately bigger than the A320, and it does have the benefit of a newer engine than really most (all?) of Delta's A320s and A319s.

I thought it was quite short sighted of NW to continue to take A320s with an inferior engine and even convince Airbus to hang it on the A319. Its not like IAE continued to offer the V2500-A1.

NS
 
catiii
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
Why would WN/FL care if Boeing sold or leased the less economical aircraft to a competitor? I would think WN/FL would chuckle in glee! It isn't as if DL couldn't buy new aircraft easily. Compared to the C-series, unless Bombardier misses promise, the 717 just won't be competitive.

My thought is why would DL buy more old generation aircraft right before the new engines arrive? But I'm such an engine nut that I might be biased...

They would care if those aircraft were synergized by a competitor into a network that made them economical. Anderson has stated that "we're not buying shiny new objects," that at the end of the day the goal is to improve P&L and if an existing airframe can meet those goals at the fraction of the cost (i.e. used MD-90s over new 738s) that diminishes the attractivness of a re-engined aircraft.

As FlightGlobal has repeatedly (and I think correctly) pointed out, Delta puts much more weight on ownership cost in aircraft purchases than on promised efficiency improvements.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:36 am

Why is it that Americans seem to think that they only airline who could possible be interested in an aircraft such as these 717s are other American airlines? We have this conversation every time a US airline changes its fleet.

Aircraft are easily relocated anywhere on the planet. It's incredibly unlikely that DL would be interested in the 717. Those that will be interested are probably existing 717 customers around the globe and that is who the lessors will be calling first when WN is able to return these aircraft.
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catiii
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:40 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
Aircraft are easily relocated anywhere on the planet. It's incredibly unlikely that DL would be interested in the 717. Those that will be interested are probably existing 717 customers around the globe and that is who the lessors will be calling first when WN is able to return these aircraft.

All 3 operators outside the United States operating a total of 27 of them?   In all seriousness, are any of them increasing their capacity that much to want the 88 that FL has? And if they did, why haven't they already gone after the 20 or so of them in storage at VCV?
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
As FlightGlobal has repeatedly (and I think correctly) pointed out, Delta puts much more weight on ownership cost in aircraft purchases than on promised efficiency improvements.

NW was bitten hard not buying those 'promised efficiency improvements.' There is a reason it is now part of DL...

Buying cheap, but not the latest efficiency improvements, works best for aircraft that are kept a short time. Long term there is a risk of further rises in the price of oil.

The 717 is a great aircraft, but the engines require cold hard cash to keep flying. Those 'promised efficiency improvements' by Bombardier would pay for the CS300 in about 8 years. So unless Bombardier misses target of DL only keeps the 717 a short time frame... DL would do better buying new.

And buying new might be 73Gs. I could see that business case (even with CFM-56s). I do not see the business case for DL and the 717. I cannot make the annual cost of flying a 717 lower than a 73G for DL. A 73G doesn't cost much more than a 717 per block hour. With the latest CFM-56-7 PIP, they probably will have the same cost per block hour.

So the question is, could the 717 be discounted enough to make up for the 20 fewer seats? Financing should only be 10% to 15% of the block hour costs. So even a free 717 will have trouble versus the current 73G. Good luck versus the 737MAX. In particular on any mission over 700nm.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
Why is it that Americans seem to think that they only airline who could possible be interested in an aircraft such as these 717s are other American airlines?

It is more interesting to speculate in a single buyer. Most non-US operators of large fleets utilize newer aircraft.

Or as noted:

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):
All 3 operators outside the United States operating a total of 27 of them?

   Although there are rumors that the VCV fleet is going to Russia.

Boeing had trouble placing 20. What are they going to do with 88 unless they 'make a deal' with one large airline? If all 88 are grounded it would butcher the economics of the other 717 operators; mostly due to a halt in the production of spare parts.

If WN does drop the 717, Boeing has few hopes to place the type. For Boeing, DL makes sense.

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catiii
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
NW was bitten hard not buying those 'promised efficiency improvements.' There is a reason it is now part of DL...

Totally agree with you. The "one airline's trash is another airline's treasure" philosophy to fleet planning is I think a short-term, short-sighted view that doesn't take into account things that we can presume will happen (continued upward pressure on energy costs because of increased global consumption and instability in energy producing countries, carbon tax regimes around the world penalizing older airframe/engine technologies). In the near term DL may return more value to their shareholder but in the long term I'm not so sure they're going to be well positioned.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
I actually think the 717 would be a good fit for Delta, and it would open up the opportunity to acquire the Saudia MD-90s as well due to common cockpit.

Actually the cockpit is no where near common..The MD-90 cockpit is more in line with the MD-88 not to mention the 717 has Rolls Royce engines and a cockpit more in line with an MD-11. I love the 717 don't get me wrong but I don't see DL picking it up.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 22):
Actually the cockpit is no where near common..The MD-90 cockpit is more in line with the MD-88 not to mention the 717 has Rolls Royce engines and a cockpit more in line with an MD-11. I love the 717 don't get me wrong but I don't see DL picking it up.

The SV MD90s he was referring to actually are the only glass MD90s. CRTs actually, not LCD but glass none-the-less. All other MD90s share a common layout to the MD88s with EFIS. That's why he was saying it may open the possibility of DL picking up the SV birds but I don't see either (the SV 90s or the 717s) coming on with Detla.
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mplsjefe
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:40 am

All great points . . . but did anyone really see the used MD-90s coming into Delta's fleet 3 years ago? The purchase of used MD90 airframes didn't' seem to make sense then, but now Anetters are saying it was a good replacement for DC9s etc. . . . how is the 717 any different? It would fill an important niche until new aircraft can be purchased and available and may be get a really good deal i.e. they would own them at likely a significant discount and can then see how the market, oil costs, etc.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 24):
All great points . . . but did anyone really see the used MD-90s coming into Delta's fleet 3 years ago? The purchase of used MD90 airframes didn't' seem to make sense then, but now Anetters are saying it was a good replacement for DC9s etc. . . . how is the 717 any different? It would fill an important niche until new aircraft can be purchased and available and may be get a really good deal i.e. they would own them at likely a significant discount and can then see how the market, oil costs, etc.

Actually, the "DL wants all MD90s" rumor had been around for quite a long time now. However, I think every situation and specific need is different.. To compare the 717 to the MD90 isn't quite fair although I understand where you are coming from. It will fit into Delta/NW's mantra of opportunistic buying. However, DL needs a/c in this class ans size NOW, not in 2022. Hence the reason we see orders for 100 739ERs. And as far as i'm concerned, i'm still not sold that all delivered will be standard 739s. Many things can happen between now and say 2017. In 2015, DL may deferr the remaining orders until the 739 Max is ready. It's not very hard to re-negotiate the terms of the sale for the more expensive frame all the while securing early delivery slots from this announced purchase.

Now, back to what I was saying about needing a/c NOW. There will be an offering for an a/c in the size/class of the 717 and MD80 (sort of) very soon and that is the CSeries100/300. That is the difference IMHO. The 320NEOs and 737 Max is a ways away and cannot fullfil DL's immediate need to replace the 757s exiting the fleet in the upcoming years. I guess what i'm saying is that the technology to beat the 717 is here so DL and others will wait. However, the NEO and Max cannot fill the void in 2013/2014.
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:11 am

Possibly, well DL is in discussion of a 100 seater which the 717 is a 100 seater. DL wants 100 more aircraft and the 717 fleet in AirTran is 88 plus the 20 717's in storage= 98. Hmmmmmm? Do we see a connection here?

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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting ZKNCL (Reply 26):
There will be an offering for an a/c in the size/class of the 717 and MD80 (sort of) very soon and that is the CSeries100/300.

Absolutely. And based on the order book for the CS right now, DL should still be able to get them relatively soon (2015 most likely). If DL waits on this decision too much longer, the CSeries order book will most likely be significantly longer.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:37 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 13):
why would FL/WN hand back aircraft to a lessor to allow them to be snapped up by what is becoming their chief competitor

To stick to their business plan which is with one aircraft type.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 15):
The very strong arguments here for Delta to buy new, more efficient aircraft, all make sense . . .

Except that they cost more money.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
If WN does drop the 717, Boeing has few hopes to place the type. For Boeing, DL makes sense.

Since these "New Engine Option" and New 737s are far off for now they are just a pipe dream IMO. Who is to say what kind of a deal Boeing might offer Delta to pick up those 717s despite any hesitations Delta may have regarding the aircraft. I never dreamed that Delta would ever consider the MD90s but here they come and they're cheaper. Remember with all the uncertain economics do you want to spend more on new aircraft when you could be offered a steal. The only real question here is the actual point in time when WN would start unloading their 717s,
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:11 pm

I dont think DL has any interest in these aircraft unless they were offered dirt cheap, and there is no reason to think that is the case.

I don't know who will get the B717s but it doesnt have to be one carrier. After all, these planes will be 12-15 years old (of heavy use) by the time they leave the FL fleet - they will likely draw interest from secondary carriers around the world but not necessarily DL or any other North Amercan major carrier.

Will they survive long enough to get WN colors (and one class cabins?)
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:46 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 29):
Will they survive long enough to get WN colors (and one class cabins?)

It could be said that the B717s provide WN with the "regional jet" that they have needed for a long time now for smaller markets but have never had and wouldn't buy.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 29):
I dont think DL has any interest in these aircraft unless they were offered dirt cheap, and there is no reason to think that is the case.

   And only if Boeing is selling them outright. DL would have less than zero interest in leasing old birds of this nature. But I expect Boeing wants to continue leasing them.

Quoting richierich (Reply 29):
they will likely draw interest from secondary carriers around the world

  

All the same people who have been flying 732s and 735s for years should love them.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 30):
It could be said that the B717s provide WN with the "regional jet" that they have needed for a long time now for smaller markets but have never had and wouldn't buy.

As WN has said, the B717 doesn't represent enough of a reduction in size versus the B737 to warrant a secondary fleet type. And the use of "regional jet" is apparently pretty liberal if that is how the 717 is viewed. The 717 is big "100 seater" aircraft.

I think the B717 has been a great aircraft for AirTran but now that WN is calling the shots I think there are very few routes that it allows penetration to that the B737 is too large for, at least with WN's typical route and network strategies. My guess is they will continue to operate primarily in and out of ATL under they are replaced by newer 737s, perhaps all gone by the end of 2013 or so.
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FLALEFTY
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:45 pm

One of the issues with the B717 are the RR BR700 engines. This engine family was designed with the luxury business jet market in mind (G-V, 550, 650 and Global Express). Even with the BR715 version for the 717, it is a boutique engine in terms of market scope and sales numbers. I understand that BR700 engine overhauls require shipping them to their German factory, which is an expensive proposition for an US-based airline. Additional time in the engine overhaul cycle equals lost revenue opportunity for an airline.

However, if WN works a deal with Boeing to get out of the FL 717 leases early (to buy the 737MAX), they will be smart to write in the contract that the 717s are not re-leased, or sold, to a direct competitor (i.e. Delta). The 717, even though it is an orphan with some logistical issues, is a good performer on routes less than 2,000 KM.
 
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 33):
However, if WN works a deal with Boeing to get out of the FL 717 leases early (to buy the 737MAX), they will be smart to write in the contract that the 717s are not re-leased, or sold, to a direct competitor (i.e. Delta). The 717, even though it is an orphan with some logistical issues, is a good performer on routes less than 2,000 KM.

I do NOT think Boeing would allow any restrictions as to who Boeing would lease or sell the 717s to, that WN returns.
It would not make good business sense. WN may buy 100 seat aircraft from from Bombardier or Embraer, but WN is still too dependant on the 737 to try and restrict Boeing's options on the 717s.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
jc2354
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 34):
I do NOT think Boeing would allow any restrictions as to who Boeing would lease or sell the 717s to, that WN returns. It would not make good business sense.

Didn't AA try to do this with Boeing when they were getting rid of the F-100s?

My way of thinking, which is usually warped, is that Delta (or any airlines) might find themselves in the positions of having to take these airplanes, at least temporarily. Unless there are orders already, both the Boeing and Airbus lines are going to be full of the large AA order.

Jack
If not now, then when?
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:38 am

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 24):
All great points . . . but did anyone really see the used MD-90s coming into Delta's fleet 3 years ago? The purchase of used MD90 airframes didn't' seem to make sense then, but now Anetters are saying it was a good replacement for DC9s etc. . . . how is the 717 any different?

Someone at DL did. If I recall DL first inspected the China MD90's at least five years ago. I do remember a crew meeting back in 2004 where the fleet plan for the MD90 and MD11 came up. Those in fleet planning were looking to either buy up all of the type or dump the small fleet.

I think the 717 is the right size, but the engine could be the sticking point. It is an oddball engine that we don't overhaul in house. With 80+ airframes it would be an in house, but it doesn't look like we could get approval and the MRO market is nil. I vote for the CS.
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 36):
I think the 717 is the right size, but the engine could be the sticking point. It is an oddball engine that we don't overhaul in house. With 80+ airframes it would be an in house, but it doesn't look like we could get approval and the MRO market is nil. I vote for the CS.

Boeing might be willing to help Delta obtain the necessary approvals to overhaul the engines from the FEDS to get the 717s off the market. Delta possibly will be in the market for 100 seat aircraft and Boeing may want to move the 717.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
rlwynn
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 33):
I understand that BR700 engine overhauls require shipping them to their German factory

Airtran BR715 engines are overhauled in Montreal.
I can drive faster than you
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 37):
Boeing might be willing to help Delta obtain the necessary approvals to overhaul the engines from the FEDS to get the 717s off the market. Delta possibly will be in the market for 100 seat aircraft and Boeing may want to move the 717.

I doubt we would really want to add that line. There just isn't a big enough insource market I believe. Just about everything we add to do inhouse has to have an income money stream.

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