JAAlbert
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Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:32 pm

I did a search but didn't find anything on point - which means I'm lousy on searching or there is nothing on point - so here goes:

Is there any country that permits a foreign carrier to transport passengers domestically within the territory of that country? I just read a post where JAL flew NRT to ATL with a stop in SEA. The SEA-ATL segment does not allow domestic passengers. Any country where this is possible?

And what about a foreign carrier that stops in a country and then flies onto another country? I believe Air New Zealand flies into LAX en route to LHR. New Zealand can sell tickets for LAX to LHR. Is this common or does Air New Zealand have some special arrangement? The other route that comes to mind is CX's NYC-YVR - HKG route. Can CX sell tickets between NYC and Vancouver?

I've heard that UAL and DL both offer connecting flights from Japan to other Asian destinations? Are these flights filled with USA passengers only, or are they selling tickets locally?

Though I discuss USA examples (cause I live here) I'm not limiting the discussion to the USA.
 
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PeterJ
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:37 pm

What you are referring to are known as Fifth Freedom rights.

I know they were discussed recently, but a quick search was from 2010:
Fifth Freedom Rights (by globalflyer Dec 4 2010 in Civil Aviation)

I am personally not an expert on this topic, and there are many here who are. I can say though that CX does in fact have fifth freedom rights between YVR and JFK. (I have to go home to the US for a wedding and am considering treating myself to a CX flight.)

I hope this helps a bit.

Peter
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):

Is there any country that permits a foreign carrier to transport passengers domestically within the territory of that country? I just read a post where JAL flew NRT to ATL with a stop in SEA. The SEA-ATL segment does not allow domestic passengers. Any country where this is possible?
Quoting PeterJ (Reply 1):
What you are referring to are known as Fifth Freedom rights.

I know they were discussed recently, but a quick search was from 2010:
Fifth Freedom Rights (by globalflyer Dec 4 2010 in Civil Aviation)

I am personally not an expert on this topic, and there are many here who are. I can say though that CX does in fact have fifth freedom rights between YVR and JFK. (I have to go home to the US for a wedding and am considering treating myself to a CX flight.)

Actually, JAAlbert is referring to the concept of "cabotage." The JFK YVR flight is an international flight, not a domestic one.

There's a bit in Wikipedia about it that gives examples though I don't vouch for the veracity of the examples. Click below for the info:

Wikipedia: Cabotage
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texan
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:58 pm

There are some, but not many, outside of the EU countries -- Ryanair, for instance, flies domestically in multiple EU countries. Australia and New Zealand have cabotage with each other if the licensing state issues the airline a single aviation market licence. New Zealand has also swapped 8th freedom rights, or continuing cabotage, with the U.K., Ireland, Singapore, Brunei, and Chile. Ireland is an interesting case, though, because while continuing cabotage is allowed Open Skies don't exist between the two countries. Continuing cabotage, by the way, means for instance that a Singaporean airline could operate SIN-AKL-CHC and sell domestic tickets on the AKL-CHC leg. This is assuming that they have the correct licences at the time.

Texan
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PeterJ
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:59 pm

Ah, tymnbalewne, you are right. I only read and responded to half!

Also regarding DL: they do operate an actual hub in NRT. You can fly within Asia on their aircraft. Example, while staying in Ulsan South Korea, I travelled to HKG. A possible itinerary was PUS-NRT-HKG.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting PeterJ (Reply 1):
What you are referring to are known as Fifth Freedom rights

No, it would be eighth freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

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Viscount724
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting PeterJ (Reply 4):
Also regarding DL: they do operate an actual hub in NRT. You can fly within Asia on their aircraft. Example, while staying in Ulsan South Korea, I travelled to HKG. A possible itinerary was PUS-NRT-HKG.

DL has 5th freedom rights, not 7th freedom international rights (or 9th freedom cabotage rights) so they're not permitted to operate stand-alone flights beyond NRT. Their flights between NRT and other points in Asia have to be continuations of flights to/from the US with the same flight number (but not necessarily the same aircraft). 7th freedom and 9th freedom stand-alone rights are very rare except for the Europe single market and Australia/New Zealand (for carriers from those countries) examples already mentioned. Cargo 7th freedom rights are a little more common. For example, Fedex can carry traffic in certain markets wholly within Asia on a stand-alone basis without any connection to flights to/from the US.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Is there any country that permits a foreign carrier to transport passengers domestically within the territory of that country?

At one time a few carriers were permitted to carry domestic passengers in Switzerland between GVA and ZRH on flights that served both points. I remember Tunisair and TAP once did that.Those rights may still exist but haven't been used since the 1980s or so.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 3):
Australia and New Zealand have cabotage with each other if the licensing state issues the airline a single aviation market licence.

As well as this, Australia permits foreign airlines to run purely domestic flights within Australia. To do this the foreign airline must set up a local arm which has Australian certification.
DJ when first set up was like this, 100% owned by Virgin Group UK. Tiger Australia is currently in this situation, owned 100% by Tiger SIN.
But we do not normally permit domestic passengers on international tags such as UA's SYD-MEL-SYD tag.

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ORDJOE
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:02 pm

Oh how I dream of a day when any airline go go to and from anywhere as long as there are slots at the airport, none of these bilaterals and different freedoms
 
skyguyB727
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:33 am

I remember that LY used to have a JFK-LAX segment that was a continuation of their TLV-JFK flight. Of course, there was a "no local traffic" restriction on the segment.

There are some very interesting, Fifth Freedom routes. LHR-JFK used to offer a lot of foreign carriers. I remember AI flew it, and I think PK did, too. My sister and her husband were involuntarily rerouted AMS-ORD on KU a few years ago. CP Air (later Canadian Airlines and then Air Canada) flew SYD-HNL for years. PR flies, or did fly LAS-YVR with an A340.
 
texan
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:32 am

Oh, and UK and Singapore also swapped 8th Freedom rights a while ago. Not sure who else might've done that.

Texan
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shnoob940
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:31 am

I know in Australia, SQ flies ADL-MEL, UA SYD-MEL-SYD, PR SYD-MEL among others and they don't permit you on them if you're flying domestically
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malioil
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:33 am

UA with KWI-BAH-KWI is also a 5th freedom flight.

RJ with BKK-HKG-BKK

KU with LHR-JFK-LHR

EK has quite a consortium of them laying around,

QR with GRU-EZE, SIN-DPS, BKK-SIN along with a few others I cannot recall.


9W with their BRU-JFK/EWR routes too.

UM I believe also operate KUL-PEK-KUL

ET with BKK-HKG as well as KQ.

[Edited 2011-09-05 00:38:24]

[Edited 2011-09-05 00:39:45]
 
richcandy
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting texan (Reply 3):
There are some, but not many, outside of the EU countries -- Ryanair, for instance, flies domestically in multiple EU countries.

Are flights inside the EU operated by an airline not based in the country that they are flying, or in either of the countries that they are flying between operated under 5th freedom rights?

i.e FR STN-PIK or EZY ORY-NCE

I thought (and I could be wrong) that because the EU operates as a signal market (in many ways a signal country) that any EU based company could operate anywhere within the EU without needing to apply for special permission.

Alex
 
tayser
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting Shnoob940 (Reply 11):
I know in Australia, SQ flies ADL-MEL, UA SYD-MEL-SYD, PR SYD-MEL among others and they don't permit you on them if you're flying domestically
CX fly HKG-ADL-MEL-HKG - and they recently announced they're starting to de-link them (must have more 333s coming on board) so it's likely to be, over time, HKG-ADL 1x daily and HKG-MEL 3x daily (currently HKG-MEL 2x daily and HKG-ADL-MEL-HKG 1x daily).

edit: CX also do HKG-CNS-BNE-HKG 3x weekly (4x weekly HKG-BNE).



[Edited 2011-09-05 02:35:58]
 
hoons90
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:08 am

If I remember correctly, when Ansett collapsed in 2002, the Australian government allowed Korean Air to sell tickets between Brisbane and Sydney on their ICN-BNE-SYD-ICN flights. Now the flights are operating separately to each respective destination.
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tayser
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:46 am

I have a vagggueee memory of foreign carriers doing domestic runs during the pilot strike 20 (?) years ago as well.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting richcandy (Reply 13):
hought (and I could be wrong) that because the EU operates as a signal market (in many ways a signal country) that any EU based company could operate anywhere within the EU without needing to apply for special perm

Indeed, the single market allows any EU registered carrier to fly from anywhere to anywhere within the single market countries. Including cabotage, which is interesting as cabotage rights for truckers are limited.

On international services, cabotage rights are practically non existant. ZRH-GVA was mentioned but that was treated as an international city pair. Only exeption are tag flights where the passenger makes a stop-over and coninues on a domestic portion, TYO-OSA was famous for that. Pax could stop-over at TYO and continue on the airline to OSA.
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6thfreedom
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 16):
I have a vagggueee memory of foreign carriers doing domestic runs during the pilot strike 20 (?) years ago as well.

After the collapse of Ansett, foreign airlines were permitted to uplift domestic passengers for a limited time.
United operated SYD-MEL-SYD, and some others offered BNE-SYD v.v.

edit: Top
 
vv701
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 10):
Oh, and UK and Singapore also swapped 8th Freedom rights a while ago. Not sure who else might've done that.

  

The UK / Singapore agreement is one of the few if Open Skies Bilateral Air Services Agreements in the world. It is described here:

http://gem.sciences-po.fr/content/pu...omini_evolution_of_ASAs_062009.pdf

The agreement allows Singaporean airlines to establish a hub in the UK and UK airlines to establish a hub in Singapore. From these hubs the airlines of the two countries may operate to any other destination. In the case of Singaporean airlines the agreement effectively gives them cabotage (8th Freedom) rights. So they can operate UK domestic services without restriction.

Here is an extract from pages 12 and 13 of the report linked above:

"As from March 2008, carriers are allowed to base aircrafts in each other’s countries and operate services to any other destination. In other words, Singaporean airlines would now have the right to use London Heathrow as a hub while UK carriers have the same right at Singapore Changi. Moreover, cabotage rights have been granted, as Singaporean airlines can benefit from the same rights as British airlines in the UK market, including the right to operate domestic services."
 
Viscount724
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
The agreement allows Singaporean airlines to establish a hub in the UK and UK airlines to establish a hub in Singapore. From these hubs the airlines of the two countries may operate to any other destination.

Only if they also have 7th freedom rights from the other countries involved, which is unlikely.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:12 pm

Well, SQ exercises 7th freedom on FRA-JFK since years and AFAIK the LHR slots are used for SIN flights only.
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Viscount724
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:05 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Well, SQ exercises 7th freedom on FRA-JFK since years and AFAIK the LHR slots are used for SIN flights only.

Are you referring to passenger or cargo? If passenger, isn't FRA-JFK 5th freedom as it's a continuation of a flight from SIN, not a stand-alone 7th freedom operation? Don't think the US-SIN bilateral permits 7th freedom except for cargo. Not sure about the Germany-SIN bilateral.

[Edited 2011-09-06 15:06:17]

[Edited 2011-09-06 15:06:59]
 
vv701
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Only if they also have 7th freedom rights from the other countries involved, which is unlikely.

Sorry. As we were discussing foreign carriers operating domestic services in another country I thought my purpose in raising the UK Singapore bilateral Open Skies agreement would be obvious. As I pointed out a Singaporean airline could, under that agreement, operate internal UK flights.

Nevertheless are you really correct in saying that it is unlikely that other countries will grant rights that would allow a British airline to fly between them and Singapore? Indeed do such rights not already exist? In addition to the UK are there not 26 other sovereign nations in the EU? And are there not also three members of the EEA? And cannot a British airline already operate within and to and from all of the nations within the EU and EEA to any country within the EU or EEA and any other country - like Singapore - that has an Open Skies agreement with either the UK or the EU? Surely is that not how a British airline, EC, already operates between France and the USA?

Of course British airlines having the legal right to operate between Singapore and Lichenstein is only of theoretical importance and no practical value. But the current right for a British airline to operate between, say, Singapore and Germany or, for example, Singapore and Norway could be a lot more than of theoretical value. And, of course, BA already operates a SIN-SYD service even if it is an extension of one of their LHR-SIN flights and therefore not part of a BA SIN hub operation.

In other words under current agreements tomorrow BA could operate tomorrow between SIN and FRA or between SIN and OSL or . . .
 
Gemuser
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:05 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):

In other words under current agreements tomorrow BA could operate tomorrow between SIN and FRA or between SIN and OSL or . . .

It's not that simple!
First off we are talking about 8th freedom. AFAIK the EU has no air service agreement with SIN, they are all country to country agreements. Therefore BA can only operate between FRA, OSL, etc IF the agreements between SIN, UK, FRG & Norway allow it. I very, very, very much doubt that the agreement between SIN & FRG allows 8th freedom.

BA does NOT have 8th freedom rights between SIN and Australia, they have fifth freedom, which means EACH flight MUST commence in the UK and go on to Australia, UNLESS the Australia-UK agreement allows 8th freedom, which AFAIK it does not.

Viscount724 is correct, there are very few countries that would allow BA 8th freedom rights from SIN. They could be negotiated, of course, but that would be one he*l of a project.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
And are there not also three members of the EEA? And cannot a British airline already operate within and to and from all of the nations within the EU and EEA to any country within the EU or EEA and any other country - like Singapore - that has an Open Skies agreement with either the UK or the EU?

NOT under 8th freedom! EC can only operate as it does because the EU-USA agreement allows it under 1st to 4th freedom. That agreement does not allow 8th freedom to anybody.

As far as EU agreements go, other countries do not have to recognize them. There was a problem when LH brought OS. Russia did not then recognize OS as an Austrian airline and disputed OS right to use the Austrian/Russia agreement. (How did that turn out? I never heard).

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PanHAM
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:28 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
Are you referring to passenger or cargo? If passenger, isn't FRA-JFK 5th freedom as it's a continuation of

my mistake. It is 5th freedom of course since that is a continuation of a flight from SIN-. Sometimes one can know things for decades and still make such stupid mistakes..
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Viscount724
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RE: Foreign Carriers, Domestic Rights

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Only if they also have 7th freedom rights from the other countries involved, which is unlikely.

Sorry. As we were discussing foreign carriers operating domestic services in another country I thought my purpose in raising the UK Singapore bilateral Open Skies agreement would be obvious. As I pointed out a Singaporean airline could, under that agreement, operate internal UK flights.

Nevertheless are you really correct in saying that it is unlikely that other countries will grant rights that would allow a British airline to fly between them and Singapore? Indeed do such rights not already exist? In addition to the UK are there not 26 other sovereign nations in the EU? And are there not also three members of the EEA? And cannot a British airline already operate within and to and from all of the nations within the EU and EEA to any country within the EU or EEA and any other country - like Singapore - that has an Open Skies agreement with either the UK or the EU? Surely is that not how a British airline, EC, already operates between France and the USA?

You were referring to 7th freedom services for SQ or BA which I said is very unlikely to be granted by any countries anywhere. The UK-SIN agreement granting those rights is very unusual. 5th freedom rights are of course very common, but you were referring to stand-alone services where an airline can base an aircraft in another country and operate services to 3rd countries with no connection to their home country. That's what I said is extremely rare except for EU carriers operating within the EU single market, and the exception you noted for UK-SIN, and one or two isolated exceptions like Australia/New Zealand for carriers based in those countries.