pygmalion
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787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:54 pm

FAA has released the Standardization Board Report for the 787-8 type certificate and per the FAA, the 787 and the 777 share a common type rating.

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-787_fsb.pdf

this is good news for Boeing
 
Lufthansa
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:57 pm

What? I never saw that one coming? Surely they would have pushed that in promo material etc? Seriously? I never saw it happening or read a thing about it at all! I mean great for boeing, Airbus long realised the advantage this offered, and definately something that will help existing 777 operators chose the 787. But I just never even heard a wishper of it.
 
pygmalion
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:01 pm

I know Boeing was working towards that from the beginning. Common rating was granted as part of the initial type certification granted on August 26th

Quote:
2. PILOT TYPE RATING REQUIREMENTS
2.1 Type Rating. The Boeing 787 is designated B-787. In accordance with the provisions of FAA Order 8900.1 and AC 120-53A, the B-777 and B-787 are assigned a common pilot type rating.
 
apodino
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:06 pm

This is great news for the big three, all of who already operate the 777 and are getting the 787. This means that with the same type rating, all the crews will be required to do is differences training which is a lot cheaper and takes less time. That being said, because of the differing layouts of the 777 and 787 flight deck, I don't expect airlines to have one list for both types, but separate lists.

I agree with other posters though, Boeing should have marketed this if it was going to happen. Though I don't think it would have made any difference in terms of sales.
 
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:14 pm

I'd have thought the reason they didnt market it was because they werent sure they were going to be able to do it, and it would be a poor thing to have to backtrack on, so would not have wanted to release the information until they were sure they were going to be able to make it happen.
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bonusonus
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 1):
What? I never saw that one coming? Surely they would have pushed that in promo material etc? Seriously? I never saw it happening or read a thing about it at all!

Really? I definitely heard this before today. I'm surprised it wasn't more common knowledge. Maybe it wasn't released with a lot of fanfare, but I'm pretty sure that Boeing previously announced that the 787 would have the same type-rating as the 777.
 
bonusonus
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:33 pm

OK, it looks like the previous spec was "cockpit commonality" with the 777, requiring only 5 days training for a pilot to switch to the 787.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-data-access-and-familiarity.html

Even with the common type-rating, wouldn't 777 pilots still need a bit of training to be able to fly the 787?
 
pygmalion
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:00 pm

yes. Training is about 5 days. Seat time in a 777 counts in a 787, all you need is the differences training. HUD, system differences etc.
 
Mir
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 7):
system differences

Which seem like they'd be pretty significant when it comes to the electrics and pressurization systems. Not to mention the avionics differences. Five days seems like a bit too little - I'd think a week or a week and a half to get properly up to speed. Still better than a full type, though - similar to what Airbus can do with crews of the 320 series and the 330/340 series.

-Mir
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packsonflight
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 7):
yes. Training is about 5 days. Seat time in a 777 counts in a 787, all you need is the differences training. HUD, system differences etc.

5 days of what? CBT training? On top of that there must be some simulator time.
 
pygmalion
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:07 pm

The 5 days does include simulator time. Time in training depends on the pilot's existing training levels and time in seat and the specific aircraft configuration they are transitioning from. The 5 days is how long it takes to take a current 777 PIC or SIC to a 787 PIC or SIC and includes sim time.

The specific training depends on the airline's aircraft configuration and something called the Master Differences list and what type of operations the airline is certified for. If the airline is using the HUD on the 787, for example, for limited visibility takeoffs, the differences training would need to include that.. if they don't... the HUD training would be less extensive. The certification document I linked to discusses all this and provides an example of the things that need to be considered when the airline determines their training requirements for differences. A pilot changing airlines with different configurations of 777-2ERs still needs differences training to fly the different configuration at the new airline. That can be small or large depending on the differences in question.
 
nws2002
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 3):
I don't expect airlines to have one list for both types, but separate lists.

Any particular reason? The 757/767 operate with a single pilot list at CO.
 
ckfred
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:28 pm

A friend of mine flew 757/767 with AA for 16 years. And for the first 10 years, it wasn't uncommon to fly both types on one trip. While the cockpit in both aircraft are almost identical, the performance and procedures are vary different.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):
A friend of mine flew 757/767 with AA for 16 years. And for the first 10 years, it wasn't uncommon to fly both types on one trip. While the cockpit in both aircraft are almost identical, the performance and procedures are vary different.

Seems like that would be more likely to confuse if you aren't paying attention than the 777/787 where the cockpits are more dissimilar.
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KELPkid
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Seems like that would be more likely to confuse if you aren't paying attention than the 777/787 where the cockpits are more dissimilar.

I'll say. Not to mention that the 787 has many more electric systems than the 777, and much less hydraulic...   I can't believe Boeing pulled this one off. 757/767 were designed from the outset to be matched twins (well, from a type rating perspective anyways). The 787 and 777 weren't   About the only similarities I can think of OTOH are that Boeing probably used identical control laws and envelope protection techniques between the Triple 7 and the 787...
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N243NW
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:22 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):
A friend of mine flew 757/767 with AA for 16 years. And for the first 10 years, it wasn't uncommon to fly both types on one trip. While the cockpit in both aircraft are almost identical, the performance and procedures are vary different.

Not to mention that now the crews have to deal with some aircraft being equipped with the MAUI flat-panel upgrade and some without.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
I can't believe Boeing pulled this one off.

That's what I've been thinking the whole time. I couldn't believe they were trying and now I can't believe it worked. The systems and cockpit displays are so different that it will be interesting to see how adequate the five-day differences training will be, even for (or especially for) what traditionally are the most senior pilots at many airlines.

I would imagine that Boeing did a lot of work to replicate the 777 feel with the 787 FBW to achieve this goal, very similar to the tweaks that they made to the 747-8 to keep the similarity with the -400.
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
I'll say. Not to mention that the 787 has many more electric systems than the 777, and much less hydraulic...

I think you missed my point. With the 757 and 767 being so similar inside, a tired pilot might "forget" where he was sitting if he flew the 767 earlier that day and is now in a 757, but the flight characteristics are so different, you'd realize it soon after making the wrong inputs. The 787 and 777 are less similar visually so it would be harder for a pilot to make such an error. Though one assumes that the 777NG will gain more commonality with the 787...
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simpilot459
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:56 am

The 787 flight deck was designed for 777 pilots. It was always Boeing's intention to be able to transition 777 pilots to the 787 in as little as 5 days. The layout and interface is very similar to the 777, all the buttons and displays are in the same place. What does it matter how the plane is pressureized if the interface controls are the same?
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UPS757Pilot
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 16):
I think you missed my point. With the 757 and 767 being so similar inside, a tired pilot might "forget" where he was sitting if he flew the 767 earlier that day and is now in a 757, but the flight characteristics are so different, you'd realize it soon after making the wrong inputs. The 787 and 777 are less similar visually so it would be harder for a pilot to make such an error. Though one assumes that the 777NG will gain more commonality with the 787...

Actually it's not that different. I fly both with 5X and other than some flap speed differences, obvious weight differences, the airplanes fly very similarly, including the landing. The 767 has a roomier cockpit and a better oven! The 787/777 common type rating sounds much more complicated than what the 757/767 is for us.
 
BoxBoy
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:31 am

And a DA 2000 EX-Easy is not common with the 900 EX-Easy. Common types have nothing to do with common and everything to do with politics and money. Sold to the highest bidder.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 1):
Surely they would have pushed that in promo material etc?
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 1):
I never saw it happening or read a thing about it at all!
Quoting apodino (Reply 3):
Boeing should have marketed this if it was going to happen.

They've been marketing it for years, to the people that matter: the airlines. They only bother publicly pushing those features the public cares about (mostly cabin comfort and environmental footprint). Passengers don't care about common type ratings.

Quoting apodino (Reply 3):
Though I don't think it would have made any difference in terms of sales.

If you have a 777 fleet already, common type rating makes a significant difference in the cost to add the 787. It might not have swung any sales from Airbus to Boeing (although it may have), but it probably resulted in some extra units sold.

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Which seem like they'd be pretty significant when it comes to the electrics and pressurization systems. Not to mention the avionics differences. Five days seems like a bit too little
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Not to mention that the 787 has many more electric systems than the 777, and much less hydraulic...   I can't believe Boeing pulled this one off. 757/767 were designed from the outset to be matched twins (well, from a type rating perspective anyways). The 787 and 777 weren't
Quoting N243NW (Reply 15):
The systems and cockpit displays are so different that it will be interesting to see how adequate the five-day differences training will be

They were designed for commonality from the start. The two aircraft have the same normal procedures and checklists. Same display symbology (the bigger displays allows more simultaneous data but the format is the same). Same handling.

Almost all of the systems differences are invisible to the pilots...for example, the electrical and pressurization panels are basically identical. The bleed panel from a 777 is obviously absent on a 787, but in almost every case the 787 panel is the same or simpler than the equivalent 777 panel.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
About the only similarities I can think of OTOH are that Boeing probably used identical control laws and envelope protection techniques between the Triple 7 and the 787...

The control laws and envelope protections aren't actually the same. But the handling is, which is enough.

Tom.
 
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flylku
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 5):
Really? I definitely heard this before today.

I was in the dark on this also.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 11):
Any particular reason? The 757/767 operate with a single pilot list at CO.

A friend flew both and said the only difference to him was that in one (I forget which) you step down a tiny little to get into the cockpit.
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N243NW
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
They were designed for commonality from the start. The two aircraft have the same normal procedures and checklists. Same display symbology (the bigger displays allows more simultaneous data but the format is the same). Same handling.

Thanks for the good info...makes me feel better about the type rating.

Quoting flylku (Reply 21):
A friend flew both and said the only difference to him was that in one (I forget which) you step down a tiny little to get into the cockpit.

The 757 is a step down and the 767 a step up. There are also some minor differences to the overhead panel, such as knobs vs. push buttons, fuel jettison controls, cargo heat controls, and (depending on the engine manufacturer) EICAS readings.
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apodino
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:58 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 11):

Any particular reason? The 757/767 operate with a single pilot list at CO.

That is true, and it is operated that way at most airliners. In this case though the flight decks are almost identical. The comparison I had in mind was actually the 767-200/300 to the 767-400, which have somewhat different cockpit layouts, and I believe have separate lists at CO and DL (Someone correct me if I am wrong). There are other cases where you have one single type rating, but you can have completely different cockpits as well, such as 737 Classic vs Next Gen, 747 early models vs 400, DC-9 vs 717 (Yes they are actually the same type rating), etc.

In the case of the 777 and the 787, while the type rating may be the same, the cockpits have very different layouts, especially with the FMS design and the flight display design. For the types of flights that these aircraft will all fly, I think because of the very different layout of the cockpit that the airlines will keep the lists separate. I could be wrong though.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:28 am

Question: Does the 767-400 and 777 have a common pool of pilots? I saw that because their cockpits look to be almost identical.

Sounds very strange that 777 and 787 will have a common type rating considering the layout of the cockpits are pretty different.
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hOMSaR
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 23):
There are other cases where you have one single type rating, but you can have completely different cockpits as well, such as 737 Classic vs Next Gen, 747 early models vs 400, DC-9 vs 717 (Yes they are actually the same type rating), etc.

I thought I've read that 747 Classic and 747-400 had different type ratings. Not basing that on certain knowledge, just what my memory is telling me.

My question to those in-the-know is, what exactly does a type rating mean? Is it airplane handling characteristics? Procedures? If a pilot rated for the 737-100 can use that same type rating to fly the 737-900, then cockpit configuration doesn't seem like too big a requirement.
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DashTrash
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:27 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 24):
Question: Does the 767-400 and 777 have a common pool of pilots? I saw that because their cockpits look to be almost identical.

No. The 767-400 is still the 757/767 type even though the -400 has a 777 cockpit.

It's all about differences training. The -400 at Delta is a separate bid, but the -400 at CAL is not.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 23):
In the case of the 777 and the 787, while the type rating may be the same, the cockpits have very different layouts, especially with the FMS design and the flight display design.

The FMS UI is identical. The only difference on a 787 is that the whole FMS is displayed on a screen while in a 777 part of it is physical buttons. All the same functions are in the same places and do the same things.

The flight display design is, again, functionally identical. The physical screens are larger, but each is cut in half to form two multi-function displays. Individual MFD's present the same information using the same symbology in the same way as the 777.

It's like the difference between A4 and letter paper...yes, the format is technically different, but the way the user interacts with it are the same.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 24):
Sounds very strange that 777 and 787 will have a common type rating considering the layout of the cockpits are pretty different.

The cockpit layouts are almost the same. The same controls do the same functions, are located in the same positions, and have the same feel (tactile response, knob shape, etc.). If you reach for a 777 control on a 787 one of two things will happen...either you'll hit the control you were going for or it won't be there at all because that control is gone. You won't get confused and grab the wrong thing.

Quoting homsar (Reply 25):
My question to those in-the-know is, what exactly does a type rating mean? Is it airplane handling characteristics? Procedures?

Essentially, the handling, procedures, and interface have to be close enough (though not identical) that a pilot can flip between them at will and exhibit the same level of performance without having to think about it.

Quoting homsar (Reply 25):
If a pilot rated for the 737-100 can use that same type rating to fly the 737-900, then cockpit configuration doesn't seem like too big a requirement.

Correct. There is no requirement for identical cockpits or (especially) identical systems.

Tom.
 
ikramerica
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 25):
My question to those in-the-know is, what exactly does a type rating mean? Is it airplane handling characteristics? Procedures? If a pilot rated for the 737-100 can use that same type rating to fly the 737-900, then cockpit configuration doesn't seem like too big a requirement.

Other than Aloha I can't think of any airline that flew 737-100/200 and 737NG at the same time
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KPDX
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:47 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 28):
Other than Aloha I can't think of any airline that flew 737-100/200 and 737NG at the same time

Alaska Airlines did for awhile.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:57 pm

I have a sort of off topic question since people were talking about 787 sim time. At what point in an aircraft's development does the manufacturer make full sims available and on a side note, who usually produces the sims?
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 28):
Other than Aloha I can't think of any airline that flew 737-100/200 and 737NG at the same time
Quoting KPDX (Reply 29):
Alaska Airlines did for awhile.

As did FR, DL and WN.

[Edited 2011-09-09 12:51:01]

[Edited 2011-09-09 12:55:26]
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 25):
I thought I've read that 747 Classic and 747-400 had different type ratings.

Well, the 747 Classic did have this Flight Engineer fella to give the pilots a hand.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:56 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 29):

I believe Westjet did as well.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 32):

...applause for a good landing...?
What the...?
 
nomadd22
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 32):
Well, the 747 Classic did have this Flight Engineer fella to give the pilots a hand.

Ah, yes. Victor.
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thegeek
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting homsar (Reply 25):

My question to those in-the-know is, what exactly does a type rating mean?

A 737 pilot can't fly a 767 the next day, and once converted to a 767, they can't fly the 737 in revenue service any more (for example). What this announcement means is that 777 & 787 pilots can.
 
KELPkid
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 35):
A 737 pilot can't fly a 767 the next day, and once converted to a 767, they can't fly the 737 in revenue service any more (for example)

Sure they can. The pilot just needs to keep both the 737 and 767 ratings current. Of course, that can become a headache quickly...

Does it happen in practice? No. Most airlines forbid that...not to mention that a pilot who has earned their way onto the bigger plane earning 767 pay rates probably doesn't want to earn 737 pay for a 737 trip  
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thegeek
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 36):
Sure they can. The pilot just needs to keep both the 737 and 767 ratings current. Of course, that can become a headache quickly...

Hmm, I didn't know that. I'm not sure if this is possible in Australia though.
 
mffoda
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:05 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 36):
Does it happen in practice? No. Most airlines forbid that...not to mention that a pilot who has earned their way onto the bigger plane earning 767 pay rates probably doesn't want to earn 737 pay for a 737 trip  

What about the military Reserve and ANG pilots that fly a variant of a commercial A/C in military service, But another type in commercial service... I know it happens?
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tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
At what point in an aircraft's development does the manufacturer make full sims available and on a side note, who usually produces the sims?

Full motion 787 sims have been available for several years. The big manufacturers are Thales and CAE, although there are others.

Obviously the simulator fidelity goes up with time as they update the databases...the initial sims just use predicted, not actual, data. Since the simulation is all in software it's fairly easy to update.

Tom.
 
RobertS975
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 28):
Other than Aloha I can't think of any airline that flew 737-100/200 and 737NG at the same time

Didn't DL operate 737-200s, 737-300s, and -800s at the same time?
 
KELPkid
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 38):
What about the military Reserve and ANG pilots that fly a variant of a commercial A/C in military service, But another type in commercial service... I know it happens?

Military aircraft and flight requirements are totally separate from civil requirements...a military pilot can finish their career in the service withoug ever holding any civil pilots license   [obviously not the case for an ANG pilot who is also doing civil flying] . Although, for military pilots who never held a civil license, they can apply for FAA equivalency licenses when they leave the service, which gives them an equivalent civil license in type and class for their military flying (e.g. multi engine ATP with instrument, etc. ). That means the military pilot just has to get their type rating through an airline training program to go and join the line pilots when they get out (assuming they land a civil job...).
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Viscount724
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RE: 787 Gets Common Type Rating With 777

Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 40):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 28):
Other than Aloha I can't think of any airline that flew 737-100/200 and 737NG at the same time

Didn't DL operate 737-200s, 737-300s, and -800s at the same time?

Yes, for quite a few years.

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