peanuts
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If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:34 am

I hear rumors DL may eliminate all B757 TATL flying in the foreseeable future. One of the reasons would be the inconsistencies in the product up front. Makes sense in a way.

With other capacity reductions in mind, the B767 could easily handle the extra burden I would guess.

Which routes could be in jeopardy due to this? You know, places where a B767 would be just a little over the top...like KEF(would it decrease chances of a return?), Scandinavia, UK...other seaonal routes...

How will this place DL competitively along with UA and AA on similar routes?

[Edited 2011-09-08 17:38:48]
 
jfk777
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:02 am

DL 757 fly from JFK to many cities like BRU, FRA, Berlin, and Zurich.
 
burnsie28
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:44 am

The 757 will be flying Europe for the foreseeable future.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:52 am

Please elaborate more on such rumor.

Not buying this one just yet. DL doesn't have enough aircraft to accomplish this during the summer months.
 
tommy767
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:02 am

I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD. There are also some routes that are done on ex-NW 757s (5600) which would explain the consistency up front and in Y compared to the ex-TWA 757s -- Old overheads, no PTVs, older seats. Those 5600s can be pulled and used on routes to Hawaii, South America, and Tokyo as they have ETOPS and winglets.
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IrishAyes
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:07 am

Sounds like garbage to me. DL uses the 757 on too many important transatlantic routes, as stated above.

In recent years, the 757 has provided an advantage to some airlines by allowing them to provide multiple schedules (a la CO going 4X on 75Ls EWR-LHR) as a way of attracting more premium fliers.

If DL is having issues with "product inconsistencies" then UA/CO certainly has their work cut out for them, with 2-class BusinessFirst on the PMCO 757s and 3 class services on PMUA planes, both of which will be used out of IAD and EWR. However, judging by the fact that UA/CO has decided NOT to go forth with one standardized product, I don't believe it is too much of an issue; therefore, I cannot see why this is the case with Delta.

Furthermore, the 757 allows DL to link some of its secondary East Coast hubs such as CVG and BOS to key European cities like LHR, CDG and AMS because they are within the aircraft's range. They've also allowed some wiggle room with the AF-KL JV to serve cities like PHL and PIT. Those may not have succeeded (largely for other reasons), but at least the 757 allowed those options to materialize at some point.
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IADLHR
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
DL 757 fly from JFK to many cities like BRU, FRA, Berlin, and Zurich.

Since when does DL fly the 757 JFK-Berlin? I am glad I went when I did and didnt fly a 757.
 
blueman87
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:17 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 6):
Since when does DL fly the 757 JFK-Berlin? I am glad I went when I did and didnt fly a 757.

they have for a long time 10 years
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OA412
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:21 am

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 7):

JFK-TXL is, and has always been, a 763. You may be confusing DL with CO who flew it on a 752 for many years, and still does in the winter.
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mayor
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 7):
they have for a long time 10 years

I don't think so. I retired in '05 and we (DL) hadn't started flying TATL with the 757s at that time. Matter of fact, I don't think DL started TATL service with the 757 until after they emerged from BK.

[Edited 2011-09-08 22:15:48]
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redhair
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:32 am

AGP-JFK and VLC-JFK are both operated by TATL 757 if Im not mistaken
 
peanuts
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:59 am

I think my source is reliable, however, if deemed too speculative just delete thread please...

Obviously, B757's are on their way out regardless, at some point. However, my source stated that this is an operational change before airplane retirements are due. Providing more service consistencies as well as operational efficiencies were some of the reasons given.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess...
 
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seabosdca
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:12 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
I think my source is reliable

I would believe it if someone told me they were going to cancel all TATL 75A flying (among other reasons, due to the product up front). I would not believe it if someone told me they were going to get rid of all TATL 757 flying including the 75E fleet. I think the 75E will be doing its thing for a very long time.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
Obviously, B757's are on their way out regardless, at some point.

The 75Es are new enough, and accumulate cycles slowly enough (as they rarely perform flights shorter than 5 hours), that they could easily fly with DL for 15 or even 20 more years.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:18 pm

Quoting peanuts (Thread starter):
I hear rumors DL may eliminate all B757 TATL flying in the foreseeable future.

If the pull the 752s from international service, would they reconfigure them back to domestic config or would they put them on transcon routes as is?
 
FSDan
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:41 pm

IF the rumor is true, I think the following would lose service: JFK-KEF, JFK-SNN, JFK-MAN, JFK-AGP, JFK-VLC, JFK-ARN, JFK-CPH, PIT-CDG, and probably PHL-CDG as well. I also think the summer seasonal BOS-CDG would be dropped on DL metal and AF would just upgauge one of their flights. And now that I think about it, JFK-DKR is also a 757 route that probably doesn't warrant and upgauge.

JFK-DUB, JFK-BRU, and JFK-FRA would certainly all get upgauged to 767s.
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aaexecplat
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:08 pm

One has to wonder if there is pressure to upgauge the most profitable TATL routes and cut the NB TATL flying largely because the ATI/JV with AC/KL generates re enue despite funneling traffic through their networks.

Pressure could be cost related, or from partners who neted higher network utilizaion.
 
tommy767
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 14):
PIT-CDG, and probably PHL-CDG as well.

PHL-CDG has already been dropped. PIT-CDG is arguably on it's way out as well.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:14 pm

Hard to believe the likes of JFK-AGP and JFK-VLC make money without any demand upfront and Y fares for 500-600 euros R/T in the middle of august (Spain high high high season). Know people who have flown both routes this summer and say flights averaged 90% loads in Y although plenty of empty seats in J.

Cheapiest JFK R/T from MAD or BCN during summer is normally above 800 euros, much bigger markets than malaga and valencia although much more competition (IB, CO, DL, AA, etc).

Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer,
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brightcedars
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 14):
JFK-DUB, JFK-BRU, and JFK-FRA would certainly all get upgauged to 767s.

Not sure about JFK-BRU being upgraded as there is a lot of competition on the route, BRU is now a Star hub, and SN is said to soon be inaugurating its own BRU-JFK sometime next year.
I think DL will focus BRU traffic via ATL and via surrounding Skyteam partners (AF and KL).
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laca773
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD. There are also some routes that are done on ex-NW 757s (5600) which would explain the consistency up front and in Y compared to the ex-TWA 757s -- Old overheads, no PTVs, older seats. Those 5600s can be pulled and used on routes to Hawaii, South America, and Tokyo as they have ETOPS and winglets.

Wow. I thought these PMNW 757s had already been upgraded to the rest of the longhaul 757 fleet to maintain consistency. Is there any plan to do this?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:58 pm

I would have to think this is the distant future? I can't see them not flying them for the summer of 2012 or Delta will significantly reduce European service
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:47 pm

A lot of the 757 TATL routes don't require the product consistency up-front.

I just don't put a lot of credit on this rumor at least in the near-future. This measure has significant impact to DL's JFK plans and network strategy.

I've heard a lot of rumors come and go on this board but this is one seems highly speculative.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD.

Thus, most of the inconsistency is in the fact that most 763ER have no such thing as nose-to-tail AVOD... and neither does 744, although it does not do much t-atl curently.

I see no big deal with up-front inconsistencies as long as one given configuration (say, the less comfortable) is always used on the same destinations or flights, ie, those that get the lowest yields with little J traffic in this example.
Most airlines in fact do this, 757 or not, because 1. their existing fleet, when upgraded, is not upgraded all at once, and 2. they have specific sub-fleets with specific configurations for specific markets. As a result, most big airlines have "inconsistent" seat offers throughout their whole fleet.
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peanuts
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:10 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 13):
or would they put them on transcon routes as is?

That was part of the wording how it was diluted to me...
Just to reiterate: highly speculative, as there is one person between my (known to be reliable) source and ATL. So I have to take into account a certain level of dilution of information.

Basically it was stated DL is questioning the sense of B757 TATL and redeploying them transcon instead.

I do have a feeling there are some significantly intense things going on at headquarters currently. We know of staffing reductions, major new software implementation headaches and the list goes on and on. Sounds like crunch time to me, on many different levels.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
PHL-CDG has already been dropped. PIT-CDG is arguably on it's way out as well.

We'll see about PITCDG. The flight is currently going 4x weekly until the end of October, then is going into hibernation through the winter. It is slated to return at the end of March, again at 4x weekly (and hopefully going up to 5x weekly, as it is during peak summer months) but we will see if this flight is able to make it on its own without the State and Taxpayer subsidies, which ended in June.

It is no secret that the flight had not been hitting revenue targets even with the subsidy in place, but we will have to see.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 17):
Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer

These routes never made sense to me. How can low-yielding, sun/leisure destinations in Southern Europe command nothing but rock-bottom fares from NYC?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
delta2ual
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 9):
I don't think so. I retired in '05 and we (DL) hadn't started flying TATL with the 757s at that time. Matter of fact, I don't think DL started TATL service with the 757 until after they emerged from BK.

They started in 2007.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
I think my source is reliable, however, if deemed too speculative just delete thread please...

If it's true, then DL will either have to go back to larger aircraft, or pull out of alot of cities.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
MAH4546
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 24):
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 17):
Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer

These routes never made sense to me. How can low-yielding, sun/leisure destinations in Southern Europe command nothing but rock-bottom fares from NYC?

Because the demographics of Ameircans visiting secondary markets in Europe skew towards wealthier. Venice is lure leisure, but has some of the highest average trans-Atlantic fares.
a.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 26):
Because the demographics of Ameircans visiting secondary markets in Europe skew towards wealthier. Venice is lure leisure, but has some of the highest average trans-Atlantic fares.

AFAIK there are much more spaniards on these routes (AGP&VLC) than americans, NYC is huge here in spain and it means people from mid/large metro areas (according to spain standars) like valencia, alicante, seville and malaga can fly non stop to NYC paying lower fares than one stop thru MAD or BCN,

VCE is a different market since it's much more appealing to wealthier americans than Valencia or Malaga,
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FSDan
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 18):
Not sure about JFK-BRU being upgraded as there is a lot of competition on the route

It's going to a 767 for the winter...

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
PHL-CDG has already been dropped

Is it not coming back next summer?
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pqdtw
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:48 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 17):
Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer,

Delta has already announced that it will be serving VLC DAILY next summer(instead of 3-4x weekly like this year and last) . No word on AGP.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting pqdtw (Reply 29):
Delta has already announced that it will be serving VLC DAILY next summer(instead of 3-4x weekly like this year and last) . No word on AGP

Do you have a source for it, I live in the area and haven't heard a word about that,

BTW, do someone know if they are getting some sort of subsidy from local spanish authorities to keep the route going? I remember when the flight was first launched a couple of years ago valencia autonomy president (=state governor) and mayor went to NYC to held some sort of festivity....
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pqdtw
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:05 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 30):

It was announced internally. If there has not yet been a press release, look for one soon.
 
TR1
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting pqdtw (Reply 31):
It was announced internally. If there has not yet been a press release, look for one soon.

Could you PM me the internal source? I don't recall seeing anything about this at the PMNW NYC base.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?

Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:49 pm

AGP, KEF, and VLC have all been loaded for sale next summer in the GDS.