phljjs
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WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:40 pm

I saw a post over at flyertalk, but nothing here. Apparently, WN is ending PHL-BOS on February 11, 2012. I don't think this was previously announced. If you try to book a flight after 2/11, you get this message: Published scheduled service between (Philadelphia - PHL) and (Boston - BOS) will be discontinued on 02/11/2012. Please select an alternate date or choose another origination/destination. Please visit the Southwest Airlines interactive route map for alternate choices. (SW100102).

Even with the recent cut backs, I'm kinda surprised to see this. Going from serving 3 Boston area airports from PHL to zero. US Airways will now have a monopoly on the route, unless another airline decides to try their luck. Welcome back to the $1000+ airfares US sold when they had the monopoly before.
 
apodino
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:21 pm

What is odd is usually when WN ramps up a city and battles an existing carrier, they ultimately win. This is rare case where WN is battling a legacy and losing.

I can name a lot of cities where they have won or are holding their own against existing carriers.

MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL


Makes you wonder...
 
richierich
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:27 pm

Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...
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BOStonsox
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
I can name a lot of cities where they have won or are holding their own against existing carriers.

MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

My explanation is that MCO and BWI were not hubs for anyone else, although FL did try to challenge them more recently. PHX and LAS were HP hubs, but had sufficient O&D for WN to work until US merged with HP and shrunk their operations there. STL and DEN were AA and UA's weakest hubs, and LAX is the 2nd largest market in the country. Compared to PHL, while PHL does have a lot of O&D, it is a major hub for US.

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

If they time their flights right, I don't see why not. There is room for two.
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:17 pm

The competitive landscape has changed since the 1000 dollar fares. If any airline tries to take advantage of a market in an extreme way, there are multiple carriers that could/ would start service in rapid fashion to take advantage of the high yields. Pricing too high can be counter-productive and airlines understand this today.

This same topic was discussed in a recent WN/ PHL thread where the same statements were made about US Airways after WN announced an exit from multiple northeast cities from PHL. WN is going through a fundamental transformation, in fact, I wouldnt be shocked to see this take place in some of the California markets in relatively short order.

Pulling aircraft from one market to another where more money can me made is good business....its not like WN doesnt have plans for those aircraft.....lets see what they do with them.
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Jonathanxxxx
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

FLL too. That's probably the worse of them all. Considering:
A) It's A Secondary Airport
B) Every LCC In America Serves It.
C) It's Already A Hub For An ULCC
D) It's Very Low Yeilding

I mean the fact that they are able to have a large operation like they do means something. They have really held their ground.
 
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 4):
Pulling aircraft from one market to another where more money can me made is good business....its not like WN doesnt have plans for those aircraft.....lets see what they do with them.

Rumor is that theyre going on the new WN service from ATL-PHX/LAS
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GSP psgr
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

WN also beat up AA twice at SJC, though another operation where I'd put WN on the losing end of the battle is SLC against DL. It'll be interesting to see how things play out in ATL.
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 6):
Rumor is that theyre going on the new WN service from ATL-PHX/LAS

I was thinking that this was the case but was not sure. It makes sense.
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PHLBOS
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting PHLJJS (Thread starter):
Even with the recent cut backs, I'm kinda surprised to see this. Going from serving 3 Boston area airports from PHL to zero.

   I agree, that is extreme; especially since in the last known-news report when they announced that they were dropping PHL-MHT/PVD) early next year they mentioned that PHL-BOS was staying (but at a reduced frequency). It is kind of weird that they're only giving the service just under a year to prove itself.

I guess they reviewed of what happened when FL cut back frequency on that route (during their final year of offerering it) and didn't want to repeat the disastrous results that followed in terms of bookings.

Quoting PHLJJS (Thread starter):
US Airways will now have a monopoly on the route, unless another airline decides to try their luck. Welcome back to the $1000+ airfares US sold when they had the monopoly before.

While US will once again have a monopoly on the route(s) again; for giggles I did a mock booking for a r/t PHL-BDL weekend on US' website to see what fares one come up with since that route's already been a US monopoly for years.

Using Oct. 8 AM departure and Oct. 9 PM return; one gets a r/t fare of $300.

While it isn't the $120-180 r/t fares one gets when booking a PHL-BOS/MHT/PVD itinerary; it certainly isn't the $600-1000 monopoly r/t fares that US was previously notorious for.

HOWEVER, if one wishes to book a day-trip; that's a whole different story. A PHL-BDL r/t, same day return Oct. 8 shows a fare of $878; which is absolutely rediculous.

A Friday/Saturday r/t (using Oct. 7 & 8) produces a fare of $399.

A Thursday day-trip (or Oct. 6) produces a r/t fare of $878 for non-stops, $610 for a connection itinerary though LGA.

Bottom line: if there's no competition on a US route out of PHL, DON'T book a day-trip.

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

   There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.
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STT757
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:31 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL

And IAH.
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RamblinMan
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
And IAH.

Pretty sure that's a different story seeing as how they have a huge operation at HOU. WN hasn't, until recently, exactly been known for serving multiple airports in one metro.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:41 pm

US Airways must command extremely high fares and yields in this market. WN is also cutting back a lot at PHL, but maybe we'll see this return someday when times are better or when the new aircraft come in.
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smoot4208
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.

While there is room on this route, I'm not sure B6 want's to get into a blood bath in this route. With B6 taking few aircraft deliveries in the short term, I'm sure they would rather place there airplanes on routes that would have a higher ROI. Essentially B6 would need 8 flights and be willing to devote 2 airplanes to this route; and I'm not sure they would want to do that.
 
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:32 am

Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.
 
ASA
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:17 am

What is the present market share on these two routes ... BOS-PHL and BOS-BWI ??

I know two frequent travellers between BOS and BWI ... and both of them prefer B6.

[Edited 2011-09-11 19:18:34]
 
FutureUScapt
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
What is odd is usually when WN ramps up a city and battles an existing carrier, they ultimately win. This is rare case where WN is battling a legacy and losing.


And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL


Makes you wonder...

Not to discredit your list, but I'm not sure that most of those on your list are an apples to apples comparison to PHL, with the notable exception of DEN and possibly STL. In LAS/PHX, WN arrived at, more or less, the same time as the other carrier so it wasn't as if HP ever had a longstanding advantage in PHX that they ceded to WN. Indeed, in LAS WN was always the #1 carrier. LAX is not really a dominant hub for one carrier, though I guess it doesn't diminish your point that they have co-existed there. MCO was never really a true hub for anyone, and certainly not a dominant hub for DL if they considered it a hub at some point. Lastly, BWI was an important hub for PI but lost it's importance with the US merger, as DCA, PHL, and PIT (at the time) all became more important. Furthermore, even at it's peak BWI was no where near what PHL is for US today.

The part that really makes you wonder is why WN built up PHL in the first place. From the start, data seemed to indicate that a large build-up wasn't justified from a bottom line standpoint. WN never tried such a build-up in DTW, MSP, or SLC (what little they did try in SLC wasn't very successful) - and they were wise to not do so, if you ask me.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 14):
Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.

4th time's the charm?

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if DL would try it yet again.
 
phljjs
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:50 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.

I'd love to see B6 in PHL. Supposedly the airport has been talking to them and Virgin America about flying from PHL for a while now. With WN dropping the route, PHL-BOS might be a way for them to test the waters.

I think part of the problem WN might have had was trying to lure enough business travelers away from US. Maybe the extra emenities and wifi coming in 2012 will help B6 establish a customer base in PHL, should they decide to start the route.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:13 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL

And SEA
 
WNCrew
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):
And SEA

I don't think ever intended to win against anyone in SEA though.... they were just routes picked up from Morris.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 16):
The part that really makes you wonder is why WN built up PHL in the first place. From the start, data seemed to indicate that a large build-up wasn't justified from a bottom line standpoint. WN never tried such a build-up in DTW, MSP, or SLC (what little they did try in SLC wasn't very successful) - and they were wise to not do so, if you ask me.

The most likely explanation was that when WN entered PHL, they were expecting US to go under, like many people were. Their initial entry did stimulate the market strongly--PHL's enplanements went up over 30 percent in the year after WN entered.

But WN planned their entry into PHL when David Siegel was still CEO, before the HP merger and Doug Parker taking over. Remember how Siegel famously said in an interview when WN had four gates at PHL, "if they go to eight gates, we're dead." That's not talk one would hear from Parker, who of course was well-experienced at competing with WN in PHX.

Also, PHL was one of the places where US had to make a stand. It's their biggest international hub, and has the biggest and wealthiest O & D base of any of their hubs. WN is settling in to a decent medium-size focus operation at PHL, which should coexist well at its reduced size with US and will continue to provide airfare accountability on competing routes.

Also, WN's priorities have changed. DEN has been hungrily devouring Canyon Blue seat capacity, and PHL was probably the weakest link.

Jim

[Edited 2011-09-11 22:04:06]
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phlwok
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:09 am

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 14):
Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.

We talk on here about DL's "dartboard" approach with CRJs, so they might do it, but I believe they've done so in the past and dropped the route. IIRC, the airlines who've dropped PHL-BOS in recent years are AA (Eagle), DL (RJs), FL, and WN. No one else has brought the capacity and frequency the US has, and as such, the frequent flyer base for US hasn't defected.

And I do not see B6 opening the route in the near term, at least not without connectivity to more than just BOS. If they coupled it with some West Coast and Florida routes, but I couldn't see them opening with just a BOS route. I've always assumed one of the primary reasons B6 has never served PHL was due to its proximity to JFK, their primary hub.
 
Valorien
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:57 am

Because WN aircraft travel to destinations beyond the city pairs you stated above, the "pullout" may have to do more with excessive delays than not enough "yield." Even though the flights may be money makers, they may actually cause WN to lose money in the grand scheme of things. PHL-BOS has been a "consistently late flight" for WN and because its other cities are affected, it may not have been worth it for them to continue on that route. Heck, in 2001, WN pulled out of SFO because of the delays it caused in WN route system, not because it wasn't making money at SFO.
 
727LOVER
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:41 am

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 7):

Where does WN fly from SLC?
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FlyPNS1
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:55 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):

Using Oct. 8 AM departure and Oct. 9 PM return; one gets a r/t fare of $300.

While it isn't the $120-180 r/t fares one gets when booking a PHL-BOS/MHT/PVD itinerary; it certainly isn't the $600-1000 monopoly r/t fares that US was previously notorious for.

But you're going too far out for most business travelers.

For PHL-BDL, 9/19-9/22: $600
For PHL-BOS, 9/19-9/22: $200

For PHL-BDL, 9/13-9/15: $1,004
For PHL-BOS, 9/13-9/15: $318

This is where having WN makes the most difference in the walk-up or short notice fares.
 
usairways85
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:12 pm

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 17):
I'd love to see B6 in PHL. Supposedly the airport has been talking to them and Virgin America about flying from PHL for a while now. With WN dropping the route, PHL-BOS might be a way for them to test the waters.

I would love to see B6 come in and do PHL-BOS/MCO/FLL and maybe try a transcon.

Many of us on here said that when WN initially announced PHL-BOS B6 sat on their hands and missed a great opportunity. Now I am not so sure B6 is ready to immediately jump in and fill the void. WN makes 4 carriers that have ultimately cancelled PHL-BOS, I am not sure B6 wants to make it 5. I think if they do start the route that it will be more about building it's BOS base and continuing to convert former US loyalists in BOS.
 
AirBuffalo
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:58 pm

So what are the odds that US will keep the "PHL express" dedicated check in area in BOS?

B6 is my favorite to fill in the void ... the only other candidate is DL, which doesn't offer anything over what US does since there's so much US and *A international flying from BOS and (albeit reduced) EAS service from US in BOS.

I do hope the void gets filled ... it wasn't just the short turn business fares that were sky high ... $400 leisure fares were the norm.
 
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enilria
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:04 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):

Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...
Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 6):
Rumor is that theyre going on the new WN service from ATL-PHX/LAS
Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 17):
With WN dropping the route, PHL-BOS might be a way for them to test the waters.
I think part of the problem WN might have had was trying to lure enough business travelers away from US

I think that B6 should take a pause and considering anything WN could not make work. As was pointed out above, WN loses very rarely so the deck was heavily stacked against them. It will not be significantly different for B6. To some extent it will be worse because WN could flow passengers beyond PHL. B6 can't really flow anybody beyond Boston because the geography is pretty poor.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
But you're going too far out for most business travelers.

For PHL-BDL, 9/19-9/22: $600
For PHL-BOS, 9/19-9/22: $200

For PHL-BDL, 9/13-9/15: $1,004
For PHL-BOS, 9/13-9/15: $318

This is where having WN makes the most difference in the walk-up or short notice fares.

True, but one has to wonder WHICH carrier are the business travelers currently choosing for PHL-BOS? If they've been choosing US over WN, due to its various perks and so forth; then it's their OWN DARN FAULT that WN is dropping the route.

Anyway, after Feb. 12, business travelers may still have a lower-cost flying alternative with Streamline; a public charter carrier that flies 4 TTN-BED r/ts Monday through Friday with a fare at rougly $200 (r/t).

http://www.iflystreamline.com/

Other than that, there's still always Amtrak (including the Acela) or driving.

Quoting ASA (Reply 15):
What is the present market share on these two routes ... BOS-PHL and BOS-BWI ??

A better question would be what's the percentage breakdown of connecting vs. O&D of US PHL-BOS/BOS-PHL passengers?

With regards to B6, how are they doing w/BWI-BOS? If it's been a success, then maybe they should try PHL-BOS; if not, then maybe they should pause on that at the moment.
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hiflyeras
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 19):
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):And SEA
I don't think ever intended to win against anyone in SEA though.... they were just routes picked up from Morris.

   Excellent point!
 
apodino
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:23 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 11):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
And IAH.

Pretty sure that's a different story seeing as how they have a huge operation at HOU. WN hasn't, until recently, exactly been known for serving multiple airports in one metro.

Exactly, IAH wasn't designed to compete with CO, IAH was only used to operate a DAL shuttle from.

I am wondering how much Amtrak is affecting the BOS-PHL market. While it isn't BOS-NYC, on the Acela Express PHL is only one hour past Penn Station, meaning about a 4 and a half hour trip on Acela.

What is obvious though to make this work is a strong FF base. US has that on both ends. I can't think of another carrier who does.
 
usairways85
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 28):
Other than that, there's still always Amtrak (including the Acela) or driving.

While I have done this a few times and it is a nice ride that allows you to work during the trip, it is not an extremely viable business travel option. It still takes ~5-6 hours one way and $400-450 round trip to travel during peak times. I know there have been numerous tests done to compare the door to door time but flying likely wins out when you travel either direction Monday morning. It is when you fly home on Thurs or Fri that likely eats up time.
 
dartland
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 31):
While I have done this a few times and it is a nice ride that allows you to work during the trip, it is not an extremely viable business travel option. It still takes ~5-6 hours one way and $400-450 round trip to travel during peak times. I know there have been numerous tests done to compare the door to door time but flying likely wins out when you travel either direction Monday morning. It is when you fly home on Thurs or Fri that likely eats up time.

Bingo. Afternoon flights, especially in summer weather, are frequently several hours late, easily making the train worth it. Morning flights generally not.


I can imagine a few good reasons for WN bringing down this route. And remember it doesn't mean it was a bad route for them, it just means there are better ways to use their resources.

BOS-PHL is primarily a business route or a connecting route. On connections, WN doesn't need to send people through PHL, when they can more easily do it through BWI where they have a bigger hub. For US, connections make a lot more sense meaning they can more easily fill planes profitably.

For O&D travel, it's primarily business and the FF base in PHL or BOS doesn't want to fly WN. They want *A miles and elite benefits. WN's corporate program is just not as robust and most companies won't force you to fly WN, they'll allow you to fly US even at a higher price.

For leisure travelers -- the drive (or train) just isn't long enough to warrant profitable fares. The stimulation of demand on the route by WN can only go so far for a relatively short hop.
 
727LOVER
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 23):
Where does WN fly from SLC?

Well, since no one answered, I'll just guess myself:

PDX, SEA, OAK, LAX, DEN, MDW, LAS, PHX

If they fly to all of these, where else are they expected to fly, so as they are not (losing) to DL?
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Cubsrule
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:39 pm

Quoting dartland (Reply 32):
For O&D travel, it's primarily business and the FF base in PHL or BOS doesn't want to fly WN. They want *A miles and elite benefits.

I think you have the "what" correct but have missed at least one major "why:" US has more flights on the route before 1 p.m. than WN has all day, and overall, US has twice as many flights. For business travelers, that flexibility is huge.
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richierich
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 31):
While I have done this a few times and it is a nice ride that allows you to work during the trip, it is not an extremely viable business travel option. It still takes ~5-6 hours one way and $400-450 round trip to travel during peak times. I know there have been numerous tests done to compare the door to door time but flying likely wins out when you travel either direction Monday morning. It is when you fly home on Thurs or Fri that likely eats up time.

In my experience, Amtrak's Acela only gives the airlines a true run for the money on the Washington-NYC and Boston-NYC routes, and all points within those ranges. Philadelphia to Boston is too far on the train, it is quicker to fly almost every single time. Most Amtrak trains I have been on seem to stop at Penn Station for an excruciatingly long time (often 30+ minutes), which seems to be for no other reason than a crew change and allowing for some slack on the schedule. Not sure if Acelas are subjected to this long wait too, the only time I took an Acela through Penn Stn. we were late arriving and our stop was less than 10 minutes.

And never mind cost...
None shall pass!!!!
 
ScottB
Posts: 5414
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 28):
True, but one has to wonder WHICH carrier are the business travelers currently choosing for PHL-BOS? If they've been choosing US over WN, due to its various perks and so forth; then it's their OWN DARN FAULT that WN is dropping the route.

And that is the most important message when any new entrant comes into a high-fare market, whether that is WN or B6 or F9 or anyone else -- use it or lose it. If you keep flying on the former monopoly carrier for perks, miles, convenience, etc. and most others make the same decision, the new entrant loses money and eventually gives up. The remaining carrier has a monopoly again and the monopoly prices come back -- so if the $600 one-way walk-up fares on US between PHL and BOS return, I have no sympathy for the folks who have kept boarding the US Airways flights.
 
apodino
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 36):
And that is the most important message when any new entrant comes into a high-fare market, whether that is WN or B6 or F9 or anyone else -- use it or lose it. If you keep flying on the former monopoly carrier for perks, miles, convenience, etc. and most others make the same decision, the new entrant loses money and eventually gives up. The remaining carrier has a monopoly again and the monopoly prices come back -- so if the $600 one-way walk-up fares on US between PHL and BOS return, I have no sympathy for the folks who have kept boarding the US Airways flights

How many places is this true for? Its not just PHL-BOS, but think of any other airlines in monopoly hubs...mainly the old US PIT hub, or the DL CVG hub.

There is a guy who has posted on A.Net who I can't remember, but he used to fly from DTW regularly on business, and everytime he always chose NW/DL even if there was another carrier on the route because of the FF deal. When they screwed him over, he would come running here complaining about the airline, but all he did was complain and didn't try a different carrier because of the FF deal. (If an airline knows that a customer will always choose you no matter what, then where is the incentive for that airline to treat the customer well in the first place?) Honestly, Loyalty programs are the only thing keeping legacy carriers afloat these days because they can't or won't compete on anything else. And I think too many business travelers have become blinded by FF programs, that truthfully don't seem to provide any real benefits to them anyways the way airlines have made it impossible to cash in miles.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 36):
I have no sympathy for the folks who have kept boarding the US Airways flights.

   Agreed, that's why I either booked my r/t w/the LFC or, if scheduling was an issue, booked them for at least one of the travel legs whenever I did a Philly-New England flight for either a day-trip or one overnight (for longer stays, I drive).

I'm a firm believer of the use it or lose it principle.

All my past PHL-PIT day-trips were either w/FL (when they flew them) or WN. The only time I did a US PHL-PIT r/t itinerary was when there was no LFC competition and my trip involved an overnight stay; which turned out to be much cheaper (at least half the fare) than a same-day return.

Nonetheless, this news (WN canning ALL PHL-New England flights, not just MHT & PVD) sucks for me. I HAD plans to book some day-trips for next spring; I was hoping WN would keep PHL-BOS at least through next summer. I'll either have to book overnights OR use BWI (I did that once before (a mixed WN/B6 itinerary) when BOS HAD to be my destination) for day-trips.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:00 pm

I find this thread a bit comical. This is what needs to happen for air carriers to build long-term stability. We all know why WN entered these markets and when their forcast didnt pan out, they have decided to drop them because their is no point in putting good money into a money losing prospect.

Think of all of the other times that this exact situation has occured....usually, it has proven absolutely futile and both carriers lose. With this draw down by WN in PHL, US can focus on generating a reasonable rate of return in these markets....the airline will become a more stable place of employment for its workers and maybe even increase its employment numbers in PHL and BOS.

I was reading an article in ATA Smartbrief that had this quote from a Wall Street firm "Airline managers have become more concerned about profits than market share and thats a good thing."

This quote is absolutely true in this environment. Market share means little if you lose your A$$ while your trying to "make it work" WN sees other opportunities out there and they will make some big decisions as they integrate FL. In an earlier post, it was identified that US Airways has one thing in the PHL-BOS market that nobody else has.....a strong frequent flier base on both ends......that is not an easy problem for a competitor to overcome.

This is a smart move by WN and a good thing for US Airways....more of this "market rationalization" needs to take place.

[Edited 2011-09-12 15:01:58]
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Jonathanxxxx
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 33):
Well, since no one answered, I'll just guess myself:

PDX, SEA, OAK, LAX, DEN, MDW, LAS, PHX

If they fly to all of these, where else are they expected to fly, so as they are not (losing) to DL?

Your right nobody did answer.. Sorry for that.. (I just saw this reply now). According to the route map they serve (non-stop):
BWI
MDW
DEN
ABQ
PHX
LAS
LAX
OAK
PDX
SEA
BOI
RNO
It actually looks a lot bigger than I thought..
 
Sevensixtyseven
Posts: 255
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 40):

However, some of those are only 1x daily. ABQ is only 1x, as is RNO. BOI and MDW are only 2x, just to name a few. DL isn't losing any, and this shows they can both coexist in a DL hub.
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
richierich
Posts: 3282
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 39):
This is a smart move by WN and a good thing for US Airways....more of this "market rationalization" needs to take place.

But clearly bad for the consumer...without any air competition on this route, BOS-PHL ticket prices are sure to increase significantly. And considering they are both major east coast cities - granted, less than 300 miles between them - this is still quite surprising and one can only surmise US will not have this route all to themselves for too long.
None shall pass!!!!
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 42):
But clearly bad for the consumer...without any air competition on this route, BOS-PHL ticket prices are sure to increase significantly. And considering they are both major east coast cities - granted, less than 300 miles between them - this is still quite surprising and one can only surmise US will not have this route all to themselves for too long.

And, yet again, it's the consumer's fault. The blame must be placed on them for not supporting the route. US may not have the route to themselves for long if B6 moves in, but I don't see anything special about B6 that would give them some kind of advantage over what WN had going on.
 
BOStonsox
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 43):
US may not have the route to themselves for long if B6 moves in, but I don't see anything special about B6 that would give them some kind of advantage over what WN had going on.

Their Boston hub will definitely help. That's something WN didn't have. B6 has a very strong loyalty in the Boston area.
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phljjs
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:15 am

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...r_fares_to_rise.html#ixzz1Xv8LBy9a
Watch sports videos you won't find anywhere else

From the article:
Southwest spokesman Chris Mainz said Tuesday that the Philadelphia-Boston route "just hasn't performed the way that we would have liked."



"JetBlue's target is to get up to 150 flights a day and to be the airline the Boston businessperson calls when they want to go somewhere on business," McAdoo said. "With this announcement by Southwest, I would wager that JetBlue is going to be in Philadelphia."
 
tharanga
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:29 am

RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:22 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
I think that B6 should take a pause and considering anything WN could not make work. As was pointed out above, WN loses very rarely so the deck was heavily stacked against them. It will not be significantly different for B6. To some extent it will be worse because WN could flow passengers beyond PHL. B6 can't really flow anybody beyond Boston because the geography is pretty poor.

Why does B6 need to flow anybody beyond BOS? By that logic, B6 shouldn't fly BOS-BWI, BOS-DCA, BOS-IAD, etc, etc. WN was trying to knock US out as the biggest airline in philly, while trying to flow BOS people through philly to elsewhere. B6 is becoming the biggest airline in Boston, and so will be better poised to capture O&D passengers from that end. Somewhat different goals. This route is big enough, O&D-wise, to accommodate comfortably both US and a B6 who isn't trying to actually end US's existence. I would think, at least.

With the numbers B6 is suggesting for BOS expansion, it can't all come from serving the Caribbean. I imagine this route will come.

Quoting richierich (Reply 35):
Philadelphia to Boston is too far on the train,

Agreed. If we had a true high speed rail, and that high speed train didn't stop for so long at NYC Penn, then PHL-BOS would be easily a route you'd prefer to take by train. But we don't. So it's either a painfully long train ride, or a painful drive, or a painfully expensive flight if US has no competition.
 
John
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:57 pm

WN got crushed in PHL, so why would B6 subject themselves to a potential money loser, especially in this volatile environment. I'm not saying B6 wouldn't be successful in PHL with a token operation, but just don't go crazy and add tons of flights to one of nation's worst airports for delays, much less try to go head to head with the 800 lb gorilla.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:11 pm

"WN got crushed in PHL, so why would B6 subject themselves to a potential money loser, especially in this volatile environment. I'm not saying B6 wouldn't be successful in PHL with a token operation, but just don't go crazy and add tons of flights to one of nation's worst airports for delays, much less try to go head to head with the 800 lb gorilla."

B6 has a hub in BOS and is the largest airline in the city. They have a better shot based on that. Will they do it? They seem committed to these business markets out of BOS so the possibility is there.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Ending PHL-BOS In February

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 44):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 43):
US may not have the route to themselves for long if B6 moves in, but I don't see anything special about B6 that would give them some kind of advantage over what WN had going on.

Their Boston hub will definitely help. That's something WN didn't have. B6 has a very strong loyalty in the Boston area.

   I was thinking similarly.

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 45):
"JetBlue's target is to get up to 150 flights a day and to be the airline the Boston businessperson calls when they want to go somewhere on business," McAdoo said. "With this announcement by Southwest, I would wager that JetBlue is going to be in Philadelphia."

Note to B6, please come to Philly w/this route. Another B6 advantage over US (or any legacy for that matter) is that one can still get ONE free checked bag without requiring a special (airline) credit card and its related annual fees.

Quoting tharanga (Reply 46):
B6 is becoming the biggest airline in Boston, and so will be better poised to capture O&D passengers from that end. Somewhat different goals. This route is big enough, O&D-wise, to accommodate comfortably both US and a B6 who isn't trying to actually end US's existence. I would think, at least.
  

Another key exerpt from the article which confirms what I mentioned earlier:

US Airways can make money on the Boston- and Pittsburgh-to-Philadelphia routes, where Southwest may not, because it takes passengers from the Philadelphia hub on to many other destinations and does not depend only on traffic beginning and ending journeys in those cities.

Again, I'd be curious to know what the percentage breakdown is for US' PHL-BOS flights regarding O&D vs. connecting (through PHL) passengers. I'm assuming that when the route had no LFC competition, not everybody on those flights was paying $500 o/w AND only flying for roughly 300 miles.

Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 39):
This is what needs to happen for air carriers to build long-term stability.

Are you insinuating that the only way for an airline (ANY airline not just US and not just out of PHL) to be profitable is to charge ridiculously high fares ($500 o/w for a 300 mile trip)? Also keep in mind that those sky-high monopoly fares do NOT include ANY checked luggage and so forth in the price of the ticket; it's still separate.

And before somebody mentions the current oil prices, the high monopoly fares has been an issue w/the network/legacy carriers for decades. In hindsight, if they didn't over-exploit the monopoly pricing issue; maybe LFCs like B6, WN/FL, F9 & even NK may have either never started nor not gotten as big (WN).

Additionally, if the airline execs. are complaining that extensively about the current oil prices; why aren't they the loudest supporters/backers for expanded domestic oil production/drilling? Alternative fuels are all well and good but aren't likely to be immediately widely-available in the near-term for the entire airline industry. This could be a whole separate topic thread in and of itself, so I'll stop here.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 14):
Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL.

They tried (w/3 r/ts via OH) that after FL dropped the route and pulled out before WN even came to BOS IIRC let alone started the route last June. For the most part, their (DL/OH) fares weren't exactly what one would call competitive nor reasonable. Their fares were just as sky high as US. The same was true during their previous periods (via mainline and ACJet) in the market; similar w/American Eagle and Business Express before them.

Quoting Valorien (Reply 22):
Heck, in 2001, WN pulled out of SFO because of the delays it caused in WN route system, not because it wasn't making money at SFO.

Yes, but WN still serves the region, to some degree, via OAK; which is a lot closer to SFO than PHL is to either BWI or EWR (which is now a WN-station).

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 25):
WN makes 4 carriers that have ultimately cancelled PHL-BOS, I am not sure B6 wants to make it 5.

How far back are you going with that number? The carriers that flew PHL-BOS at least once but dropped out over the last few decades are:
AA (including Eagle)
EA (?)
NE/DL (including connection carriers)
J7/FL (2, maybe 3 times)
WN
Air Florida (?)
ML (early 90s)
Nations Air (mid-90s)
Swiss Air (their PHL-ZRH included a stop at BOS, not sure if anyone could book a simple PHL-BOS itinerary w/Swiss Air)
Trump Shuttle

Note: Since Business Express was either a part of DL then later AA, I did not include them in the above-list.

From the Archives - a thread which I started regarding carriers that flew PHL-BOS over time:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/1644101
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981

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