User avatar
Semaex
Topic Author
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:07 pm

The search function has not revealed any matching results, and as I thought it might be of interest, here's the topic:

http://www.aero.de/news-13483/Klaege...gen-statt-neuer-Altersgrenzen.html
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/0,1518,785921,00.html
(both german)

Three LH pilots wanted to keep their jobs longer than their contracts stated concerning retirement age, which is exactly the day they turn 60. They went to the German court which then redirected them to a common European authority, stating that such practice is a way of discrimination, based on age, assuming that older pilots are 'less capable'. The European Court has ruled out that such practices may be reasonable for certain jobs, but the Pilot can be exempted from such special treatment.
Negotiations with the Pilot Unions will follow. They (Vereinigung Cockpit - VC) stated that they are not in favor of the court's ruling. LH did not want to make an official statement about the subject yet, however people within LH management said they were quite happy about it, since they can be more flexible in planning with a greater number of senior pilots.


It seems strange in today's world that there are people who are so much in love with their job that they rather work 5 more years. The common trend is the opposite - As soon as the retirement age is set higher due to economic or demographic reasons, and if it's only by 2 years, those concerned cry out as if it was their life's end. It's nice to see that there is a job out there which people like to work at.
For me personally that may or may not have consequences, as I am undergoing ab-initio flight training. If less people retire, less people might be employed. We'll see.

What are your thoughts?
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting Semaex (Thread starter):
It seems strange in today's world that there are people who are so much in love with their job that they rather work 5 more years.

I guess they love they job that much that they want to fly couple more years. As long as possible. Or they need the money because they are divorced 3+ times 

I personally am affected of this as well. As this is my Captain position which will be available a lot later if they come back and if many others fly until 65 at LH...

Let's see what LH makes out of it. As the contract between the pilots and the company still say 60 as max age. So that has to be changed first. So will take a while and I am sure there is some interesting end...

wilco737
  
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9334
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting Semaex (Thread starter):
It seems strange in today's world that there are people who are so much in love with their job that they rather work 5 more years

What is so strange about it? the law in germany says that pilots can fly until 65 years when mandatory retirement becomes effective. Of course only if they passe the medical tests. That is also a condition of the law.

LH's internal retirement practise is a privately negotiated agreement with the union VC (Vereinigung Cockpit) which has now been ruled by a European Supreme Court as discriminatory. That means, LH and VC have to go back to the negotiating table allowing pilots who want to fly longer to simply do that at their request.

The solution could be that retirement at 60 is optional with the same conditions as before and whoever wants to stay in the job until 65 or as long as health allows can do that.

In an aging society that makes a lot of sense.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:09 pm

We are going through the same thing here with Air Canada.

Basically, throughout your career wages and working conditions improve as you become more and more senior. More are hired at the bottom, more leave at the top. Right up to the last 5 - 10 years when wages are at their maximum, and working conditions are now for what you have worked the previous 20 years ... namely the best.

It is what we all signed on for, and what we all knew was going to happen.

So it is not a surprise that once you are at that level, you want to stay longer.

Of course it is supremely selfish. That is human nature. It is also human nature that the loudest opponents to working past 60 very quickly change their tune when they reach that age.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LoveTheSkies
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:59 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:40 pm

I was reading another thread about "the oldest working F/A" where age discrimination was brought up at the mentioning of a mandatory retirement age. I don't want to compare these two jobs but talk about some general ideas. With life expectancies now well into the 80's in most western societies, it may be necessary to reevaluate a mandatory retirement age of 60/65 for pilots specifically and the idea of a mandatory retirement age in general.

First, those additional years we'll live have to be financed. Years ago, a pilot retiring at 60 had enough money saved to cover his 10-15 yrs in retirement. Now, he'll need to be prepared for 20+yrs. That is quite a difference.
Then, there are the medical advances over the years that make the average 60yr old of today healthier than a 60yr old of times gone by.
And finally, I want to mention the value of an experienced employee in general. While I understand those just starting out or those (like me) waiting to move up may not like to hear it (talk about ppl being out of touch or old fashion can be heard,) there is something to be said about someone who has spent decades at his/her job dealing with all those out of the ordinary situations that come up.

As long as one can meet all the requirements for a job, I don't think age should be a consideration.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9334
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Just to explain - mandatory retirement is at 65 in Germany probably in other European countries as well.

The legal case was against a private contract between the carrier as an employer and the union. The high court has ruled that the conditions of mandatory retirement in this private contract are discriminatory and have to be reviewed.

Indeed it is so that these days "60" is not old. Pilots in Gernany, at least those working for that big company, do not have to worry about their income when they retire at 60, they still take home more than the large majority here. saving for retirement is an issue in the US maybe, not so much here.

But if the law says that mandatory retirement is 65 it does not make sense to retire 5 years early. Will be interesting to see how the union will solve that problem.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
DHstrike
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:04 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:04 pm

Hello,

Think about financial advantages... You don't start to drain your retirement funds for 5 years, even better you still put money ( and so does your company with a much bigger share) in the retirement fund. So depending how long you are within the company, this can make a huge difference in retirement pay. Roughly between 20.000 Euro till 50.000 Euro annual retirement pay.

A different story will be when the goverment ( taxes) will decide that you have to work till 65. Then you could think off that the retirement funds 100% full won't be achieved when you are 60 but only at 65. That means same money but only 5 years longer work. This is a less good scenario, but better for the company, since they pay the same contribution but stretched till 65 years old.
 
airevents
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 7:20 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:17 pm

Many of the colleagues in LH are quite unhappy about this court ruling I believe. Personally, a flight attendant, I would prefer to stop working at 55 and hope that this "can" ruling will not end in a "must" higher retirement age for everybody... But then, some people don´t seem to have hobbies (or maybe three ex-wives and some kids to entertain financially...)
www.airevents.com
 
tozairport
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:53 pm

An am totally fine with the retirement age change. My only requirement would be that they should have to go fly F/O on the most junior equipment. That way they could see how "enjoyable" this job is for all of those that they are keeping down. They wouldn't last a week.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:33 pm

At KLM the retirement age is 56.
If that would change to 60 or even higher it will mean that for more than 1700 pilots their career development will be delayed for many years. Plus young pilots won't be let in the company for many years.

So it should be kept as it is.
You shouldn't have signed that contract if you don't like it.
If you want to fly longer than what is stated in your contract, go and fly for an other airline.

Any change in the retirement age should only be made to NEW contracts.

[Edited 2011-09-14 10:36:33]
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 9):
At KLM the retirement age is 56.
If that would change to 60 or even higher it will mean that for more than 1700 pilots their career development will be delayed for many years. Plus young pilots won't be let in the company for many years.

That is the same at LH. If all the captains come back who are between 60 and 65 and all after that stay until 65 I will be captain in 15 years. Well, at least shortly before I retire myself 

Problem is, if it is the German law that pilots can fly until 65, and only the LH contract says 60, then something has to be done about it - if we like it or not.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 9):
Any change in the retirement age should only be made to NEW contracts.

Would be an option. Or say for all those who become captain from 1st January 2012 have the option to fly until 65. But then the others will comlain again and say: "we don't have that option and lose a lot of money..."

It will be difficult and complicated.

wilco737
  
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting Semaex (Thread starter):
It seems strange in today's world that there are people who are so much in love with their job that they rather work 5 more years.

Those people love their job now that they are SENIOR; they were PERFECTLY happy with the younger retirement age when they were junior. Now they want to change the game to suit their own purposes.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
It is also human nature that the loudest opponents to working past 60 very quickly change their tune when they reach that age.

I certainly saw it in the US. Can't wait for the age 65 bubble to hit: all of us in our 30s and 40s certainly took a five year pause in our career progression to let 777 and 747 Captains fly five more years.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Just to explain - mandatory retirement is at 65 in Germany probably in other European countries as well.

It'll be going up in stages; I'm in my early 40s and by the time I retire (I'm not a pilot), the retirement age will probably be about 67 or 68. I think the pension issue is a big one, because in many companies - not just airlines - across Europe, this is an issue and it's a big one. If someone wants to do a job and he/she is fit to do it, then they should be allowed to do it. Not all pilots will WANT to go on beyond 60; I would think that a significant number have planned to retire at 60 and are happy to do so; maybe they have their own private pension plans/investment portfolios. But those that want to should be allowed to.

I appreciate that it's a pain for those younger pilots waiting for a command, but at the end of the day, this was going to happen at some stage; if not now, then 5 or 10 years from now.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
Of course it is supremely selfish. That is human nature. It is also human nature that the loudest opponents to working past 60 very quickly change their tune when they reach that age.

I really don't see it as selfish; someone has a job they like and they're fit to do it; why should they retire at an age that was arbitrarily fixed 40 or 50 years ago, before their careers even began? Again, I don't think it's compulsory that people will go beyond 60; it's just for those who choose to do so. I think that's only fair and reasonable.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13132
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 8):
My only requirement would be that they should have to go fly F/O on the most junior equipment. That way they could see how "enjoyable" this job is for all of those that they are keeping down. They wouldn't last a week.

Alas, this is certain to run contrary to age discrimination rules...

Question, I vaguely recall a rule where if the pilot is over age X, the F/O must be under Y. Is that true or was that a myth?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
User avatar
Semaex
Topic Author
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
Question, I vaguely recall a rule where if the pilot is over age X, the F/O must be under Y. Is that true or was that a myth?

If I understand you right, what you mean is a certain age limit between Captain and FO, since when it comes to seniority it may happen that the FO is older than the captain, however I do not have a number on this.
What I do know from reading the FAZ printed paper report on the Age-65-Rule, at airlines in Europe where the Captain is over 60, the FO (or whoever is in the right seat) must be under 60.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 14):
What I do know from reading the FAZ printed paper report on the Age-65-Rule, at airlines in Europe where the Captain is over 60, the FO (or whoever is in the right seat) must be under 60.

To me, this defies logic ... if you have to restrict the number of crew members over 60 in a cockpit, then there should be NO crew members over 60 in the cockpit.

In other words, if there is a perceived increased risk of having older pilots flying, then why have them flying at all? Especially as there are more than enough younger pilots looking to move up the ranks.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:47 am

The age 60 rule, which was enacted in the U.S. in 1960 was basically changed because of the ruination of pilot retirement benefits in Chapter 11 restructuring, most notably at UA and US. 2/3rds of what we negotiated vanished in the wind.

I would have loved to have retired at 60, but now I have no financial choice but to keep flying as long as I can. I love my job, but I've been flying for the airlines since 1978 (since I was 23) and it would have been nice to ease on out. The change to the age 60 rule keeps me down in seniority, too. I'm still a narrow-body reserve captain after 26 1/2 years on the property.

[Edited 2011-09-15 21:50:44]
 
fraT
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:36 am

I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons. The pension they are getting now when retiring at age 60 is quite high and even with 3+ divorces, they should be doing alright.  
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:15 am

Quoting fraT (Reply 17):


I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons. The pension they are getting now when retiring at age 60 is quite high and even with 3+ divorces, they should be doing alright.

Absolutely.. these are indeed people who can't imagine a life outside of flying. One pilot I know (nearly 60 now) is seriously dependent on this ruling, as he's utterly scared of retirement.

By the way: the pilots who went to court over this are all over 65 now   their success came a bit late..
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
fraT
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:19 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 18):
By the way: the pilots who went to court over this are all over 65 now their success came a bit late..

But there more between 60 and 65 who will probably come back now.
I would like to know, how high this number is.
Any Idea, Wilco?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10877
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:34 am

Quoting fraT (Reply 19):
But there more between 60 and 65 who will probably come back now.

If they are already retired how can they come back?
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:23 pm

Quoting fraT (Reply 17):
I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons. The pension they are getting now when retiring at age 60 is quite high and even with 3+ divorces, they should be doing alright.

Not every one has started flying and joined his company at a young age.
And certainly not every one has been wise with his money.

I'm sure some of those guys can use that extra money.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
If they are already retired how can they come back?

Two at AC won a court case and came back. Both as B777 F/Os. Not a bad gig really, on top of their $100,000+ a year pension, they would make $175,000 as a Triple F/O!

One didn't make it through the course, (he was away for more than 5 years without flying), the other is off on medical leave.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
If they are already retired how can they come back?

There are rules for this (JAR-OPS). If it´s less than two years, a minor issue only. Thereafter a little more training required.
Same as for longer Illness.
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
Not a bad gig really, on top of their $100,000+ a year pension, they would make $175,000 as a Triple F/O!

You sure, they have the salary and the pension?

This will definitely not be the case in LH, either or!

The company will benefit, they save the pension.
 
Boeing747_600
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 4:01 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:15 pm

My take: If they pass the medicals and still retain their flying skills, let them fly as long as they want.
 
chrisMUC
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:47 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:48 am

Quoting fraT (Reply 17):
I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons.

As they are about to turn 65, I can't think of any other reasons than financial ones.
 
fraT
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:06 am

Quoting chrisMUC (Reply 26):
Quoting fraT (Reply 17):
I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons.

As they are about to turn 65, I can't think of any other reasons than financial ones.


a) they love flying.
b) It was not only the three who filed the suit but a lot more in their late 50ies and early 60ies. So they wanted a court to make a ruling as they were not happy with the clause in their contracts.
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:35 am

Quoting chrisMUC (Reply 26):
As they are about to turn 65, I can't think of any other reasons than financial ones.

do you really think they knew in the first place they had to wait five years to go through all the instancies?

Of course, now what is left for them is settlement money wise. They would rather have been flying for that money!

Someone had to take the first step. There are many more to come.
 
User avatar
Aquila3
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:48 am

Quoting fraT (Reply 17):
I am pretty sure that none of the LH captains who sued LH is doing that for financial reasons. The pension they are getting now when retiring at age 60 is quite high and even with 3+ divorces, they should be doing alright.


Not so sure.
Depends all on your ex-partner(s) greed.
Been there, believe me.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting earlyNFF (Reply 24):
You sure, they have the salary and the pension?

This will definitely not be the case in LH, either or!

The problem (in this case) is that these two pilots were already collecting their pensions, into which they paid. So, yes, they continue to receive their pension, and ... earn B777 F/O pay. The big sticking point was what B777 F/O pay would they receive? First year pay (about $45,000) that AC believes, or top/12 year pay, (about 175,000) that they believe.

There are valid points on either side. However, it is moot, as neither gentlemen ever actually flew again.

However, what you say is correct. If a pilot were to work past 60, and never retire, he would not collect his pension until he actually does retire. And yes ... it is a big gain for the airline.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
Semaex
Topic Author
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:29 pm

Back to my OP, what do you think will become of the airline (in this case LH) in terms of recruiting new pilots? Not to sound too dramatic; but will I have a chance at getting there in 1,5 years or will there just be no need for new pilots if the old ones keep their senior positions longer and the others will stay F/O for a couple years more.. ?
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 31):
Back to my OP, what do you think will become of the airline (in this case LH) in terms of recruiting new pilots?

The two best examples might be the US or Canada.

In the US, the change of retirement from 60 to 65 virtually meant a 5 year "stall" for everyone's career. While I certainly empathize with those at the top, it was a shitty deal for those at the bottom ... or on the street looking for work.

In Canada, the change from 60 to 65 for Air Canada (hasn't happened yet) wont have quite the same effect. Right now, we are losing 15-20 pilots a month to retirement, and that is not forecast to change over the next 7 to 10 years. The training and hiring departments are having a hard time keeping up, just to maintain status quo. When the B787s arrive, expansion, which is planned, will be hard to staff. A change in retirement ages will assist expansion, without a lot of career "stalls" as a result.

Right now LH is somewhere in the middle. If it is inevitable, then the LH Pilot's union best plan for it now, even if it hasn't happened yet. Some early retirement incentives, some capital gain to the pilots in exchange for the concession ... etc.

It is like a train coming at you down the track. It WILL hit you, best be prepared.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9334
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
f it is inevitable, then the LH Pilot's union best plan for it now,

What the union has to do is re-negotiate the contract. I think it is not mandatory for pilots to be a union member, which is very good. For LH the court ruling means greater flexibility and it certainly will be so that many decide to retire when they reach 60. It will be an option to go until 65, provided the medicals are passed.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:14 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 31):

Back to my OP, what do you think will become of the airline (in this case LH) in terms of recruiting new pilots? Not to sound too dramatic; but will I have a chance at getting there in 1,5 years or will there just be no need for new pilots if the old ones keep their senior positions longer and the others will stay F/O for a couple years more.. ?

Sorry semaex to spit in your soup,
this is a matter of LH pilots only. You (Intercockpit) are struggling in the world outside LH where the max age of 65 is already applied and valid. So you are only marginally concerned.
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
Right now LH is somewhere in the middle.

Not quite, I guess LH is leaning very much to the canadian side of this comparison.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
If it is inevitable, then the LH Pilot's union best plan for it now, even if it hasn't happened yet.

LH has to abide by the law, too late for the union to get a good deal out of this.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
What the union has to do is re-negotiate the contract.

See above. The union (dominated by the larger number of copilots) refused to talk about this in the first place. Now they have to take it, and will probably not get any much more of a deal out of that.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
I think it is not mandatory for pilots to be a union member, which is very good.


The contracts between the company and the union are valid for all pilots, regardless of being a union member or not.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
The training and hiring departments are having a hard time keeping up, just to maintain status quo. When the B787s arrive, expansion, which is planned, will be hard to staff. A change in retirement ages will assist expansion, without a lot of career "stalls" as a result.

Same in LH. Big bottleneck in getting the required copilots in on time.
In contrast to the required numbers of new hires, the number of those to continue beyond 60 is only a fraction, so the result on delays in upgradings is much less than the numbers presented in many forums.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9334
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:54 am

Quoting earlyNFF (Reply 35):
The contracts between the company and the union are valid for all pilots, regardless of being a union member or not.

That is exactly what I meant. Unlike some other countries, no one in Germany can be forced to join a union.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
Semaex
Topic Author
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: LH Pilots In Court: Retiring Age 65 Now

Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting earlyNFF (Reply 34):
this is a matter of LH pilots only. You (Intercockpit) are struggling in the world outside LH where the max age of 65 is already applied and valid. So you are only marginally concerned.

Very true, LH Passage does not affect me is much as I would love it to be, regarding my way of getting into the cockpit. Nonetheless, LH is more than just Passage; it's Germanwings and Cityline too. The question is: Are they already at the 65-rule or are they now to be affected by this change, considering they are daughters of LH?
In general; how is the situation in Germany? Is this 60-rule that is about to be abolished only a LH-feature, or do other carriers also stick to this rule which they now, willing or unwilling, have to abandon?
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos