AirCanada787
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Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:06 am

Air Canada's flight attendants have served their strike notice and will be in a position to strike as early as Wednesday. The two sides are currently talking with the 'help' of a federal mediator. Its believed by many if they do go on strike that the government will act quickly to introduce back-to-work legislation.

Air Canada has commented that if a strike occurs they will maintain some services with the help of their codeshare partners. The airline has also revised its ticket policy for anyone due to fly within the next six days.

Article from Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...erve-strike-notice/article2169623/

AC Press Release about revised ticketing policy:
http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=470


Hopefully a strike can be averted, I have friends coming to visit next Thursday and they are supposed to be flying on AC from YYZ-YHZ.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
Oroka
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:12 am

In related news, Air Canada customer satisfaction sky rockets, no one notices F/As gone, customers delightfully baffled.


Sorry, old impressions die hard.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:15 am

boo, I have my first vacation in two years starting the 24th to germany. Its aeroplan too so that will make it even more fun.
 
TheCol
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:21 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Thread starter):
Its believed by many if they do go on strike that the government will act quickly to introduce back-to-work legislation.

That's pretty much a given. Personally, I think the government should stay out of it. Both sides are very aware of the serious and long term implications to the industry, and the economy in general, if a strike lasts more than 2 or 3 days.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 3):
Quoting AirCanada787 (Thread starter):
Its believed by many if they do go on strike that the government will act quickly to introduce back-to-work legislation.

That's pretty much a given. Personally, I think the government should stay out of it. Both sides are very aware of the serious and long term implications to the industry, and the economy in general, if a strike lasts more than 2 or 3 days.

Actually, Col, for once I tend to agree with you. But this is again a chance for Lisa Raitt to try to further repair her image in the Harper cabinet and possibly move out of Labour and into one of the primo slots the next time a shuffle occurs. Never discount the power of ego when governments get involved in things.

I'd tend to agree that this will last 2-4 days. The *A routes will be *mostly* covered by partner airlines, so the effect will be mostly domestic. Hope it doesn't go too long either way the outcome occurs: want to goto YWG to see the squeeze for Thanksgiving... There is WS, I suppose...
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:14 am

If the government put out back to work legislation within 48 hours of the Check-in/Gate agent strike even though the airline was more or less operating a full schedule, imagine how fast they'll intervene if the F/A's strike, or pilots or rampers.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:51 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 5):
If the government put out back to work legislation within 48 hours of the Check-in/Gate agent strike even though the airline was more or less operating a full schedule, imagine how fast they'll intervene if the F/A's strike, or pilots or rampers.

I read an article earlier saying they may just block it from happening in the first place.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:07 am

The thing with the Pilots/FA strikes however is that they can always work to rule which arguably would cause more disruption than ramp/CSR's working to rule. If the plane is running late and the crew goes over their duty day, flight cancelled. If the plane is in the air, divert to the nearest airport, regardless of where it is and if AC Serves it. Etc etc. Even if a strike gets blocked by the idiots in Ottawa at least they still can cause meaningful labour issues at AC by working to rule.
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Boeing744
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting scrubbsywg (Reply 2):
boo, I have my first vacation in two years starting the 24th to germany. Its aeroplan too so that will make it even more fun.

As per Air Canada's website, they are offering free rebooking on a space-available basis until December. I would guess this applies to Aeroplan too, and I would think you could circumvent the scarce Aeroplan availability. I would probably consider that myself if my dates weren't set in stone. Or, maybe you could get on a codeshare flight through this policy?
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:09 pm

It would seem that the union for the flight attendants has confirmed that they will strike on Wednesday if no deal is reached.


Link from Air Canada:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/news/trav_adv/labour_updates.html
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multimark
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 9):
It would seem that the union for the flight attendants has confirmed that they will strike on Wednesday if no deal is reached.

They will be ordered back to work before they actually walk on the picket line.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 10):
Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 9):It would seem that the union for the flight attendants has confirmed that they will strike on Wednesday if no deal is reached.

They will be ordered back to work before they actually walk on the picket line.

  

With the current financial virus across the pond, the government can use it as an excuse to make the back to work legislation fast. Canadians are worried this round might have more of an impact and will likely not kick up any fuss and some might view it favourably.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 10):

They will be ordered back to work before they actually walk on the picket line.

So I assume that you mean the government will begin work on a bill to order them back to work before they ever go on strike?
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cslusarc
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:47 pm

Can AC's cabin crew do one day strikes like tube/railway workers in the UK?
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 12):
So I assume that you mean the government will begin work on a bill to order them back to work before they ever go on strike?

Won't be the first time, See the Jazz pilots and the AC CSR's and Rampies.
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idjim319
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:10 am

I think CUPE's strike will last a minute. There are ripple effects from airline strikes to the economy and Westjet cannot be expected to pick up the slack. Goods and services are affected and in the light that economists are now suggesting Canada will be the first to re-enter recession......well this strike will be crushed. If the feds leave this strike to run its course based on the current situation with Westjet being a very small player (almost all domestic), they'd be eventually need to regulate the whole industry to protect the country from strikes from one very dominant carrier. CUPE is playing with fire here. They may withdraw their services and damage the economy but the government can (and should I suggest) take steps that a country isn't pushed into recession from the actions of 6800 employees. Lets be clear. This does not make a flight attendant an essential service. I did it and it isn't rocket science. Yes thanks I know about the Air France crash. Some good training and bobs you're uncle. It still doesn't require Canadians to be held hostage.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:26 am

It always amazes me the union attitude, if we don't like our pay or benefits we can hold our employer hostage, they cant hire anyone else because its my right to work for the wage and benefits I want.
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quiet1
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:03 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 16):
It always amazes me the union attitude, if we don't like our pay or benefits we can hold our employer hostage, they cant hire anyone else because its my right to work for the wage and benefits I want.

Absolutely. It should be a unilateral divine right for all employers to impose wages and work rules. The utter nerve of the unions!  
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 17):
Absolutely. It should be a unilateral divine right for all employers to impose wages and work rules. The utter nerve of the unions!

Exactly! Air Canada's Flight Attendants presently work below poverty level wages for the first four years of their career. Apparently ... Air Canada feels that even lower wages are warranted!

Seriously, if one worked a 40 hour week, making minimum wages at McDonald's ... they would make more than a new hire Air Canada Flight Attendant.

Just edited to add ...

Also factor in that Air Canada paid $39M in bonuses to executives and managers so far this year! And, I recently flew with a new hire Flight Attendant on a GVA trip, and she mentioned to me that she likes the long trips, as that is the only chance she gets to eat full meals. She can't afford one at home ... mostly Ramen Noodles and KD!

She has a university degree and is fluent in four languages.

[Edited 2011-09-19 06:08:58]
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matt
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
And, I recently flew with a new hire Flight Attendant on a GVA trip, and she mentioned to me that she likes the long trips, as that is the only chance she gets to eat full meals. She can't afford one at home ... mostly Ramen Noodles and KD!

She has a university degree and is fluent in four languages.

I can relate. I worked as a flight attendant and loved the long trips for the same reason. However, after a while, university degree in hand, I quit and got a job where my skills and qualifications were put to better use.
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N1120A
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:12 pm

Luckily, I'm flying AC tomorrow and not Wednesday.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Exactly! Air Canada's Flight Attendants presently work below poverty level wages for the first four years of their career. Apparently ... Air Canada feels that even lower wages are warranted!

Yes. Shocking. Excellent point made.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 17):
Absolutely. It should be a unilateral divine right for all employers to impose wages and work rules. The utter nerve of the unions!

Exactly. The anti-union attitude on this board 1) ignores reality and 2) really seems driven by a blind faith on voodoo economics.
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AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Seriously, if one worked a 40 hour week, making minimum wages at McDonald's ... they would make more than a new hire Air Canada Flight Attendant.

I feel bad for these flight attendants. However, if one could really make more money by working at McDonald's then there is nothing preventing them from going and leaving Air Canada and working at McDonald's. Long term of course sticking with Air Canada means that a person will make far more than the average McDonald's employee. Does anyone know how much these new flight attendants make? On a news report I heard that they start at $21/hour. But I assume that would be only for time spend in the air. I know they have to show up earlier and perform other duties which they are paid for.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Also factor in that Air Canada paid $39M in bonuses to executives and managers so far this year!

I find that fact sickening that they will give themselves huge bonuses, yet ignore the people that do all the work at the airline. Typical corporate attitude.
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SafeFlyer
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:51 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 21):
Does anyone know how much these new flight attendants make?

About 18K the first year. About $500 more the second.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 21):
I know they have to show up earlier and perform other duties which they are paid for.

Incorrect, FA pay starts from brakes off until the brake in back on upon arrival. They are not paid during boarding or while perfoming safety checks/briefings.
 
connector4you
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting SafeFlyer (Reply 22):
About 18K the first year. About $500 more the second.

So Air Canada is contemplating on paying less than that to a flight-attendant ?
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting SafeFlyer (Reply 22):
Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 21):
I know they have to show up earlier and perform other duties which they are paid for.

Incorrect, FA pay starts from brakes off until the brake in back on upon arrival. They are not paid during boarding or while perfoming safety checks/briefings.

Sorry that was my mistake, I should have re-read my post. I meant to say that I knew they had to show up earlier and perform other duties for which they are not paid for.

Quoting SafeFlyer (Reply 22):
About 18K the first year. About $500 more the second.

Thanks for the info.
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YYCowboy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:41 am

I am suprised at the low wages being offered, as presented on this post. Is it rethoric or true? During labour disputes, issues get distorted.
Whats even more suprising is if these wages are true, how does Air Canada successfully recruit?
Perhaps staff turnover in the first few years of employment, no matter what the pay is, is significant and its not worth higher wages. Call it a probationary period.
Equally offensive to me is inflated bonuses paid to executives. Sadly, the same bonus practise is alive and well in the Canadian Oil and Gas industry.
We categorically reject and run out of town any notion of unions, its just not in our DNA, no matter what job you do. If buisnesses want our service or labour, they pay, and pay well. Unions would only serve to disrupt, corrupt and otherwise kill the spirit of individuals with uncommon work ethic.
I fly Air Canada and Westjet, no preference, unless the aircraft being offered is smaller than a E190, then its Westjet for sure.
I expect Ottawa to nip this in the bud, as they did the post office dispute and AC service union dispute. I elected them to do this, they have my blessing. Unions holding our nation and its economy hostage is not what I want.
Correct me if I am wrong on this next statement, but "back to work legislation" means this goes to arbitration? Maybe arbitration settlement will offer more than AC is offering, but less than Union is demanding.
How much is a flight attendant worth in terms of wages? What is fair?
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:50 am

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 25):
I am suprised at the low wages being offered, as presented on this post. Is it rethoric or true?

Yes it is true.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 25):
Unions holding our nation and its economy hostage is not what I want.

Then you think these wages are fair?

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 25):
Maybe arbitration settlement will offer more than AC is offering

You're kidding right?
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YYCowboy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:31 am

Longhauler:
I don't know whats fair.
Is this a life career or a job to satisify wander lust and get paid, that gets old after a few years?
Something is compelling about working on aircraft that draws people in. If nobody wanted to work for Air Canada, they would change their tune in a hurry.
I plead ignorance of back to work legislation details and the arbitration process.
If you are an Air Canada flight attendant, good luck, I don't think a strike would do your pocket book any good.
I predict settlement at the 11th hour.
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AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 25):
Maybe arbitration settlement will offer more than AC is offering

You're kidding right?

Over the weekend the arbitrators decision came out with regards to the last labour issue at Air Canada, the CAW strike. In the decision the arbitrator actually rejected Air Canada's proposal to move new hires to a defined contribution pension plan (which was one of the major issues that causes the strike). The arbitrator instead sided with the CAW and its proposal of a hybrid system. Arbitrators usually prefer to keep things as they are instead of changing them. So if the company is trying to change things and the union prefers to keep them as they are, then the union will usually win.

Articles on the topic can be found here:
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/arti...on-pathway-for-other-employees-caw
&
http://www.cbc.ca/fp/story/2011/09/19/5423913.html
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:46 pm

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 27):
If you are an Air Canada flight attendant, good luck, I don't think a strike would do your pocket book any good.
I predict settlement at the 11th hour.

I am a YYZ B767 Captain ... watching this from the sidelines.

I predict back to work legislation. The government has been very clear about this from the start of contract negotiations. That being the case, Air Canada has no real incentive to offer anything worthwhile, (and hasn't), as they know settlement is not necessary.

Unlike airlines like Southwest and Westjet which have a history of treating employees with respect, major legacy carriers haven't figured it out yet that eventually treating employees well costs the company less in the long run.
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connector4you
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 25):
Whats even more suprising is if these wages are true, how does Air Canada successfully recruit?

Perhaps when, or if, they are ever recruiting is always triggered by requirements to replenish a minimum number of flight-attendants per aircraft-type. But at these wages it's unlikely someone qualified would apply or stick around for too long

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 24):
Perhaps staff turnover in the first few years of employment, no matter what the pay is, is significant and its not worth higher wages

Remember, what you're getting is only what you are willing to pay for. If you are only after attracting inexperienced and unqualified candidates it's not worth paying higher wages which seems to be inline with AC's aim to lower their existent cost structure.

Reality is that "quality" customer-service cost money. There is a trendy belief that cutting back to a bare bone structure on customers-service could save money for companies.

That's fine, but I think all of the travel related-services as a whole should be rated as soon as possible so that one should expect the quality of services that he or she is paying for. Just like the current hotel-rating system. You can't book a two star hotel and be charged the price of a five star service.
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:03 pm

A tentative deal has been reached, strike averted.

Link from Air Canada:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/news/trav_adv/labour_updates.html

Link from CTV.ca:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...920/air-canada-talks-union-110920/
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flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Exactly! Air Canada's Flight Attendants presently work below poverty level wages for the first four years of their career. Apparently ... Air Canada feels that even lower wages are warranted!

Seriously, if one worked a 40 hour week, making minimum wages at McDonald's ... they would make more than a new hire Air Canada Flight Attendant.

Just edited to add ...

Also factor in that Air Canada paid $39M in bonuses to executives and managers so far this year! And, I recently flew with a new hire Flight Attendant on a GVA trip, and she mentioned to me that she likes the long trips, as that is the only chance she gets to eat full meals. She can't afford one at home ... mostly Ramen Noodles and KD!

She has a university degree and is fluent in four languages.

Longhauler - you are clearly in need of a reality check. Tell me which other airline in North America offers the following privileges:

-The Highest WAGES wages of any flight attendant group in North America
-One of the only intact pensions in North America for a flight attendant group
-Better work conditions than any other airline in North America
-Work the equivalent of 7 to 10 days per month (most f/a's have a second career because sked allows this)
-Staff of 15 on a 777-200LR on a route like YVR-SYD (this is more crew than BA or QF put on their 4 cls 747-400s). The ratio 1:18 is an insane ratio, even compared to full service North American carriers.
-Air Canada's CEO Calin Rovinescu is not even one of the top 100 CEO's in terms of total compensation in Canada, yet Air Canada is one of the top companies in Canada in terms of total revenue production.
-Air Canada managers (non-unionized) get paid less than flight attendants and work double or triple the hours (with no defined benefit pensions in large part)

Air Canada flight attendants should do a quick benchmark exercise, and perhaps then they would realize exactly how good they have it currently. If Air Canada f/a's have it so bad, it's a free country and labour market. They can find a career that "treats" them better.

If you can come up with a comparable that rivals Air Canada, I will be glad to admit i'm wrong.

Air Canada has the highest CASM in North America for any airline, and a large part of it has to do with higher wages, poor productivity and onerous pensions that way down on the airline competitiveness. Customers are not willing to pay inflated prices that adjust to our CASM, hence why Air Canada has to contend with consistent mediocre profitability.

[Edited 2011-09-20 17:10:27]

[Edited 2011-09-20 17:11:15]
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:31 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):

You have got to be effing kidding! First off Longhauler does know what's going on.

Your mentioning these higher wages than any other airline in Canada. Fact: Westjet's pay scale would pay new hires MORE than AC. The reason AC has such a high pay scale is because the large % of flight attendants that are senior. As AC hires to take care of attrition that cost will come down.

Pension issue: why strive for less than what you can? A pension is very important for retirees.

Working conditions: take a look at the working conditions of the LCC... Worse than WS.

7-10 days a month: lol you are out to lunch. For the senior girls that are doing long haul flying sure. You fail to consider that most of the junior girls will be working 20-25 a month on reserve. Big difference.

15 crew members to SYD: it's a long flight people need to have a break. AC is better than UA, AA and the like maybe having more crew members is part of it... Note how many crew members CX has for instance.

With respect, get your head out from underneath you. These hard working employees are trying to improve their lifes I wonder what you would think if I said you were under worked and over paid durin your contract negotiations.
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flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:15 am

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 33):
Your mentioning these higher wages than any other airline in Canada. Fact: Westjet's pay scale would pay new hires MORE than AC. The reason AC has such a high pay scale is because the large % of flight attendants that are senior. As AC hires to take care of attrition that cost will come down.

Pension issue: why strive for less than what you can? A pension is very important for retirees.

Working conditions: take a look at the working conditions of the LCC... Worse than WS.

7-10 days a month: lol you are out to lunch. For the senior girls that are doing long haul flying sure. You fail to consider that most of the junior girls will be working 20-25 a month on reserve. Big difference.

15 crew members to SYD: it's a long flight people need to have a break. AC is better than UA, AA and the like maybe having more crew members is part of it... Note how many crew members CX has for instance.

With respect, get your head out from underneath you. These hard working employees are trying to improve their lifes I wonder what you would think if I said you were under worked and over paid durin your contract negotiations.

Pension issue: have you seen Air Canada's Balance Sheet. Our liabilities outweigh our assets, this means the company is in a precarious financial situation. The future of the company and pensions is in no way guaranteed. United/Delta and Continental no longer have pensions.

15 Crew members to SYD: Again look at Air Canada's cost burden, Air Canada can't afford to overstaff... it's a dollars and cents equation

My head is with me. In 2010, Air Canada's best year in a long time, the company had a net profit margin of 1%. The company is simply not sustainable with the current cost burden, which is mostly due to inefficient and unproductive labour situations. Tell me which investor would invest in Air Canada right now, with the kind of liabilities it faces today, and in the future with a large of baby boomers on the horizon for retirement.

Everybody's has to make sacrifices. The future of our company is not guaranteed, there's a lot of threats on the horizon (WestJet/Gulf Carriers/Fuel Prices/Stagnant Revenue environment). If Air Canada continues in the direction, with labour groups with their heads in the sand, there won't be much of an Air Canada left.

If you doubt what I am saying please consult the Air Canada Financial Statements found in the 2010 annual report:

Look at the balance sheet (assets/liabilities and negative shareholder equity)
Look at the income statement for the last 10 years
Look at the CASM comparisons for all of the major North American carriers

I'm hoping we all (management and unions) rally behind making Air Canada a more competitive and nimble company that can continue to serve our country profitably.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-The Highest WAGES wages of any flight attendant group in North America

The F/As were not looking to increase wages at the top. They are looking to bring the bottom wages above the poverty level, on the B scale. Perhaps you are not aware, but there are two pay scales for F/A's. The B scale, which would include the bottom 40% of the ranks and all new hires is NOT the highest in North America, in fact it is an embarrassment.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-One of the only intact pensions in North America for a flight attendant group

The pension plan is not all that lucrative for the F/A's, but it IS what they paid for. Namely they all pay into the pension plan, always, no breaks. The company however, has been able to defer payments during periods of high return. However, now, a period of low return ... they are crying poor. Had the company been making payments all along, as had the employees, then there would not be a pension deficit right now.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-Work the equivalent of 7 to 10 days per month (most f/a's have a second career because sked allows this)

I am going to guess that probably less than 5% are able a schedule like that. Only the most senior. Average blocks for the F/A's (like the pilots) is 16 days a month. And yes there are some that fly 20 days a month, (like some pilots).

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-Staff of 15 on a 777-200LR on a route like YVR-SYD (this is more crew than BA or QF put on their 4 cls 747-400s).

Standard F/A crew compliment for the B777-200 is 8 F/As. And for 95% of the routes, that is what you get. However, on the Ultra Long Haul routes like YVR-SYD, the crew compliment is increased as per Transport Canada requirements for crew rest rotation. Then, the crew compliment is 14. Much like the pilots we normally carry 2 on a B777, but 4 on YVR-SYD.

I am going to guess that BA or QF on their Ultra Long Haul routes also carry more crew to accommodate crew rest, per their own governing law requirements.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-Air Canada managers (non-unionized) get paid less than flight attendants and work double or triple the hours (with no defined benefit pensions in large part)

Air Canada managers ALL have Defined Benefit pension plans, all protected and all paid for by Air Canada. As I mentioned above, so far this year, Air Canada has paid a total of $39M in bonuses to its managers.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 32):
-Air Canada's CEO Calin Rovinescu is not even one of the top 100 CEO's in terms of total compensation in Canada, yet Air Canada is one of the top companies in Canada in terms of total revenue production.

Air Canada is not set up to make money. It is however set up to pay various groups an enormous amount of money. And that is not a fluke. And that is why employees are legislated back to work under the guise of maintaining Canada's economy. Not because it would effect the airline, but it would effect close to $10B in payments a year to just about every other transportation related group in the country.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
which is mostly due to inefficient and unproductive labour situations

This one is actually kind of funny. Again, perhaps you are not aware, but AC's labour costs per seat mile are among the lowest in the world ... per seat mile. But that is union labour. For example pilot cost per seat mile at Air Canada is less than that of Westjet! But you wont read that in financial reports, because Air Canada (by design) does not separate the wages and working condition costs of union labour from that of heavily bloated and expensive management! They can't because then they could no longer point the finger at union employees .. and would have to acknowledge that the problem sits a little higher than union labour.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
I'm hoping we all (management and unions) rally behind making Air Canada a more competitive and nimble company that can continue to serve our country profitably.

If anything the events of the last few months has shown us is that Air Canada is not going anywhere. You can not claim "financial hardship on the economy" on one hand, then think Air Canada is going to be allowed to shut down any time soon.

Also, a little gem I recently read. The cost of bring the first 4 years Flight Attendant wages above the poverty level would be about 20 cents a ticket! In other words, far less than the bonuses paid out to managers so far this year!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
Air Canada is not set up to make money. It is however set up to pay various groups an enormous amount of money. And that is not a fluke. And that is why employees are legislated back to work under the guise of maintaining Canada's economy. Not because it would effect the airline, but it would effect close to $10B in payments a year to just about every other transportation related group in the countr

$10B as in fuel, wages, and benefits?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
Air Canada managers ALL have Defined Benefit pension plans, all protected and all paid for by Air Canada. As I mentioned above, so far this year, Air Canada has paid a total of $39M in bonuses to its managers.

Since 2004, all new hires to Air Canada management are in in the Defined Contribution plan...and did you know that WestJet management is better paid, gets better bonuses and executives have higher compensation? WestJet consistently makes solid margins, and has much more productive labour (no unions).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
Standard F/A crew compliment for the B777-200 is 8 F/As. And for 95% of the routes, that is what you get. However, on the Ultra Long Haul routes like YVR-SYD, the crew compliment is increased as per Transport Canada requirements for crew rest rotation. Then, the crew compliment is 14. Much like the pilots we normally carry 2 on a B777, but 4 on YVR-SYD.

I am going to guess that BA or QF on their Ultra Long Haul routes also carry more crew to accommodate crew rest, per their own governing law requirements.

I just got the benchmark from our in-flight department, and this is factually incorrect. BA carries 14 on their longest sector for 337 seats! The ratio is completely unproductive for AC.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 35):
The company however, has been able to defer payments during periods of high return.

Can you name me a year in the last 7-8, where Air Canada has had "high return". Have analyzed our financial statements for the last 7-8 years?


I've given you the challenge to benchmark AC flight attendant group vs. other North American legacies and LCC. I've also asked you to look at our balance sheet and income statement since 2001.

If you were to ask any financial analyst in this country their perspective about the long-term business sustainability of the business, I am certain they would tell you that our future is precarious. Our costs are too high, our competition is increasing (the competition with less onerous pensions and labor rules), and overall yields are not rising relative to costs. Who exactly would invest in a 1% business?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 36):
$10B as in fuel, wages, and benefits?

No quite the opposite, and that is the point I am making. Air Canada is not set up to make a profit because of all the other payments it makes which are not always operational expenses. Union employee wages and benefit costs are only a very small slice of Air Canada's cost pie.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 36):
I just got the benchmark from our in-flight department, and this is factually incorrect. BA carries 14 on their longest sector for 337 seats! The ratio is completely unproductive for AC.

I don't know what "benchmark" you are using, but I am using actual crew lists from actual Air Canada flights. And correct and current staffing for a B777-200 is 8 Flight Attendants for 270 seats. The only exception is when crew compliment is increased to 14 for Ultra Long Haul flights AS REQUIRED by Transport Canada. (In other words if Westjet flew a B777-200 from YVR to SYD, they too would have to have 14 Flight Attendants.)

The correct, and current staffing for a B777-300 is 10 Flight Attendants for 349 passengers. For Ultra Long Haul flying, that crew compliment is increased to 14, (same as the B777-200, as it is for crew rest rotation, not customer service requirements). In other words, Air Canada beats out BA (your example) with 14 F/As for 349 passengers vice BA's 337 passengers.

So to make this clearer. TODAY, AC33 had 8 F/As YYZ-YVR and 14 F/AsYVR-SYD for 270 passengers. AC857 LHR-YYZ had 10 F/As for 349 passengers and AC016 HKG-YYZ had 14 F/As for 349 passengers.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 36):
Can you name me a year in the last 7-8, where Air Canada has had "high return". Have analyzed our financial statements for the last 7-8 years?

In 2009 Air Canada's pension plans were OVER funded by about $600M. As a result, Air Canada took a pension payment "vacation". During that time the employees continued to contribute to their pension plan. As a result of market variations, the pension plan is currently underfunded, and Air Canada is crying poor. This is not unique to Air Canada, but anyone with money in the stock market would have felt the same ... and knowing market variations, we all know it will swing back up in the next few years. However ... Air Canada currently has to "cash in" on this excuse, as soon that excuse will not be there!

Quoting flyyul (Reply 36):
I've given you the challenge to benchmark AC flight attendant group vs. other North American legacies and LCC. I've also asked you to look at our balance sheet and income statement since 2001.

Now ... if you want to talk North America, and not worldwide, you will see that usually AC has the edge over American Carriers. And that is because American carriers staff F/As to number of seats, where Canadian carriers staff to number of passengers. For example I recently flew an extra section to LGA due to weather problems in the area. We had 4 F/A's as we only had 155 passengers. No American carrier could do that! They would have to staff more, due to the number of (empty) seats. An American carrier would require 6 F/As, (260 seats)

Comparing to Westjet, it is a wash. Aircraft are staffed to the same requirements. And most domestic flights are staffed with lower paid B Scale F/A's.

I mentioned to you before that Air Canada's pilot seat mile cost is less than Westjet. I know that, as a pilot, I have access to the information. Otherwise, no one would know. And as I said before, Air Canada will not separate union costs from non-union costs in financial results. And why? ... Because the cost problem is not with union employees. Trust me, with AC's huge PR machine, if they could show that union employee costs were not in line with the rest of the world, it would be published ... but it is not. The problem is the huge management staff within Air Canada ... the non-productive employees justifying their job.

Let me tell you an anecdote from a few years ago. I came from Canadian Airlines, and 1999 was the last year that Canadian had separate financial results from AC. In that year, CPs seat mile cost was about the same as Westjet! that's right Westjet. And that is with flying fuel inefficient B737-200s, using 2 F/As for 12 J passengers and serving Y passengers on china. I am sure that when AC bought CP one of the first on their agenda was to figure out how CP could run just a first rate operation on lower costs, (about 20% less than AC)

I am sure what they saw was the problems were not at the bottom but at the top. AC was so top heavy with "managers" it was costing a lot. Why did nothing change? Because the very people who were assessing CP were the very people who would lose their job were they to emulate CP. I am certain that information got quickly swept under the carpet.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):

No quite the opposite, and that is the point I am making. Air Canada is not set up to make a profit because of all the other payments it makes which are not always operational expenses. Union employee wages and benefit costs are only a very small slice of Air Canada's cost pie

Beside fuel, it is the largest cost item

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
I don't know what "benchmark" you are using, but I am using actual crew lists from actual Air Canada flights. And correct and current staffing for a B777-200 is 8 Flight Attendants for 270 seats. The only exception is when crew compliment is increased to 14 for Ultra Long Haul flights AS REQUIRED by Transport Canada. (In other words if Westjet flew a B777-200 from YVR to SYD, they too would have to have 14 Flight Attendants.)

The correct, and current staffing for a B777-300 is 10 Flight Attendants for 349 passengers. For Ultra Long Haul flying, that crew compliment is increased to 14, (same as the B777-200, as it is for crew rest rotation, not customer service requirements). In other words, Air Canada beats out BA (your example) with 14 F/As for 349 passengers vice BA's 337 passengers.

So to make this clearer. TODAY, AC33 had 8 F/As YYZ-YVR and 14 F/AsYVR-SYD for 270 passengers. AC857 LHR-YYZ had 10 F/As for 349 passengers and AC016 HKG-YYZ had 14 F/As for 349 passengers.

The benchmark is Air Canada crew complement and ratio vs. other established legacy carriers. Air Canada crew ratio for ultra long-haul routes is unacceptable vs. other carriers.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
I am sure what they saw was the problems were not at the bottom but at the top. AC was so top heavy with "managers" it was costing a lot. Why did nothing change? Because the very people who were assessing CP were the very people who would lose their job were they to emulate CP. I am certain that information got quickly swept under the carpet.

This is a bold assumption with nothing to back it up. Air Canada managers are paid less than flight attendants and pilots, many of them received defined contribution pensions, and don't have the privilege of job security that a union entitles them with.
 
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 38):
The benchmark is Air Canada crew complement and ratio vs. other established legacy carriers. Air Canada crew ratio for ultra long-haul routes is unacceptable vs. other carriers.

But using your own example, it is better than BA. 14 F/As for 349 passengers at AC, vice 337 at BA. And for the majority of operations it is 10 F/As for 349 passengers. Remember, as I have stated the crew compliment for ULH is required by Transport Canada, it is not something that can be changed, and would be the same no matter who was the (Canadian) carrier.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 38):
This is a bold assumption with nothing to back it up.

I agree completely! As I said, it was just an anecdote. But I often wonder why AC has so many more managers per seat mile than CP, or Westjet for that matter.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
I agree completely! As I said, it was just an anecdote. But I often wonder why AC has so many more managers per seat mile than CP, or Westjet for that matter

Prove this statement.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
1999 was the last year that Canadian had separate financial results from AC. In that year, CPs seat mile cost was about the same as Westjet! that's right Westjet. And that is with flying fuel inefficient B737-200s, using 2 F/As for 12 J passengers and serving Y passengers on china.

The china dishes in Y class on CP disappeared well before 1999.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:21 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
The china dishes in Y class on CP disappeared well before 1999.

Actually the casserole (hot part of the tray) was on china right up until the end. But, you are right, the actual CPAir method of placing all service items on china ended at the merger with Pacific Western. Funny though, in today's world of Buy-on-Board sandwiches wrapped in foil ... who would have thought even plastic was a "luxury".

Quoting flyyul (Reply 40):
Prove this statement.

I always chuckle when guys say this. It is like saying "I don't have the capability, or inclination to find this out for myself ... do it for me, would you?" But, in this case, the information is not within the public domain. So as I said to you privately, I will not continue this discussion. Cheers.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:08 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 42):
I always chuckle when guys say this. It is like saying "I don't have the capability, or inclination to find this out for myself ... do it for me, would you?" But, in this case, the information is not within the public domain. So as I said to you privately, I will not continue this discussion. Cheers.

Longhauler,

You won't continue this conversation because you can't prove what you're saying. In fact, there are numerous instances where you're "facts" are lacking.

-TC mandates 1/40 whereas in the US it's 1/50. We already are starting at a disadvantage. Find me a US carrier that has higher ratio's then Air Canada

-If CP enjoyed such cheap costs, why did it continue to struggle servicing it's debt? Which ultimately lead them to being insolvent.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
In 2009 Air Canada's pension plans were OVER funded by about $600M. As a result, Air Canada took a pension payment "vacation". During that time the employees continued to contribute to their pension plan. As a result of market variations, the pension plan is currently underfunded, and Air Canada is crying poor. This is not unique to Air Canada, but anyone with money in the stock market would have felt the same ... and knowing market variations, we all know it will swing back up in the next few years. However ... Air Canada currently has to "cash in" on this excuse, as soon that excuse will not be there!

Prior to 2009, financial markets were all trending upwards. Have you seen what has happened since?

Longhauler, I would be happy to set you up with Air Canada senior managers that deal with the day-to-day of this business. They can show you exactly how things look from the inside, and perhaps this will enlighten your perspectives on the realities of our . The invitation is open.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:55 pm

I am an investor. As such, nobody in their right mind would purchase AC shares. Westjet and/or Air Transat possibly (they actually are usually profitable) but never, ever AC. Aeroplan and Jazz are more desirable than AC and that is exactly why they were spun off since they can actually make a profit and attract investors.

AC will never make a profit since every extra dime will be gobbled up by the never ending "needs" of the largely unionized labour groups.

I know of an AC baggage handler who earns 60k per year who only has a high school degree. He has a defined benefit pension and can't be laid off since he has high seniority. He has 6 weeks holiday per year and generally sits on the conveyor truck watching the younger guys (lower paid/less job security) doing all the work. He complains about how bored he is and brags about how little he actually has to do.

The real problem are the high cost, older worker "dinosaurs" who are protected by the loopy seniority system. The older "protected" workers are overpaid/underworked.

Why don't they share their wealth more fairly with the younger workers if the younger ones have it so bad?

[Edited 2011-09-22 14:58:59]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 42):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
The china dishes in Y class on CP disappeared well before 1999.

Actually the casserole (hot part of the tray) was on china right up until the end. But, you are right, the actual CPAir method of placing all service items on china ended at the merger with Pacific Western. Funny though, in today's world of Buy-on-Board sandwiches wrapped in foil ... who would have thought even plastic was a "luxury".

When they put an ex-PWA person in charge of catering after the PWA acquisition of CP Air (creating Canadian Airlines), we knew the days of the very high former CP Air service standards, even in Y, were numbered. Service was still better than average but nothing like CP Air.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 44):
I know of an AC baggage handler who earns 60k per year who only has a high school degree. He has a defined benefit pension and can't be laid off since he has high seniority. He has 6 weeks holiday per year

Well, as an AC baggage handler who is at the top of the pay scale at AC, I can assure you, our salary is nowhere near 60K! The guy you know might make that much if he lives at the airport working overtime, but our base gross salary is much much less than $60,000/year. Our salary is actually lower now than what it was in 1995!
He also does not have 6 weeks vacation per year. Before we went into CCAA, we used to get 6 weeks, but now it is down to five weeks (You have to have 25 years service to get that as well). This might be a moot point, but it's worth clarifying.
The thing is, I, as well as many of my co-workers know we make good money for what we do and we don't take that for granted, however, when a work force has been skinned to the bone and they are expected to work at the same level and get the flights out on time with less manpower, all while the brass at the top walk away with massive bonuses, they start to get bitter.
If most of the anti AC complainers out there were to walk in our shoes for a few months, their opinions would change dramatically!! I would guess the majority of people out there would not work as a baggage handler lifting bags that weigh as much as 70lbs in a confined area such as the hold of an E190, in all types of weather conditions from blazing hot sun and temps around +40C to freezing rain, snow storms, hurricane force winds and sleet in temps around -40C while working all hours of the day from overnight shifts to early mornings and working weekends and holidays with no stat holiday pay. Do it for six months and I bet most people would think the job is worth much more than 30k a year.
I know most WS employees don't make as much as AC employees, but they aren't too far behind. I personally know some WS employees and not everything is a bed of roses there.
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Jerseyguy
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Then you think these wages are fair?

Its not about what is fair, its about what F/As will accept. If they cant find F/As who will accept this wage they will have to offer a better one.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Exactly. The anti-union attitude on this board 1) ignores reality and 2) really seems driven by a blind faith on voodoo economics.

The reality is that it is the company who is offering you a certain amount of money to do a certain amount of work. It is their money to do what they want with it, if they dont offer a wage that employees will accept then they will cease to have employees and cease to be a company.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 21):
I feel bad for these flight attendants. However, if one could really make more money by working at McDonald's then there is nothing preventing them from going and leaving Air Canada and working at McDonald's. Long term of course sticking with Air Canada means that a person will make far more than the average McDonald's employee. Does anyone know how much these new flight attendants make? On a news report I heard that they start at $21/hour. But I assume that would be only for time spend in the air. I know they have to show up earlier and perform other duties which they are paid for.

Thats exactly right, there must be a reason that FAs agree to work for this salary. So I will assume that long term that they do make a fair wage otherwise what is the incentive to become a F/A. People are free to find other work at any time whether it be as a F/A for another airline or some other job.
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NathanH
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 47):
The reality is that it is the company who is offering you a certain amount of money to do a certain amount of work. It is their money to do what they want with it, if they dont offer a wage that employees will accept then they will cease to have employees and cease to be a company.

But without unions or the fear of unions, why wouldn't every company just offer the barest amount of pay and no benefits? As a matter of fact, I think that is how it was before unions came along. So there would be no option to just go work somewhere else, because everywhere would be like that.
 
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RE: Air Canada Flight Attendants Serve Strike Notice

Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 38):
The benchmark is Air Canada crew complement and ratio vs. other established legacy carriers. Air Canada crew ratio for ultra long-haul routes is unacceptable vs. other carriers.

How many times does longhauler have to explain to you that is a Transport Canada requirement?

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