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N328KF
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777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:05 pm

I was thinking about the 777 re-engineering projet that is currently envisioned. What if Boeing did this in a two-phase operation?

  1. Use a new wing based upon the 787 wing, but scaled-up.

  2. Several years later, replace the cabin with a new CFRP design, but continue to use the wing from Phase 1.



  3. Is this even practical?
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UAL747
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:28 pm

I think that -ER models will just get the 13ft winglets are speculated and perhaps some engine upgrades. The completely new models, well, perhaps a wing based on the 787, chevrons, an engine output increase. Remember those GE-90-115B's are capable of producing 127,000lbs of thrust, but are only certified for 115,000. LED exterior lighting. Basically, it should be very 787-esque with the massiveness of the 777W.

But I'm really betting that the 777ER will get the winglet retrofit fairly soon.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
bonusonus
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
I think that -ER models will just get the 13ft winglets are speculated and perhaps some engine upgrades. The completely new models, well, perhaps a wing based on the 787, chevrons, an engine output increase. Remember those GE-90-115B's are capable of producing 127,000lbs of thrust, but are only certified for 115,000. LED exterior lighting. Basically, it should be very 787-esque with the massiveness of the 777W.

But I'm really betting that the 777ER will get the winglet retrofit fairly soon.

Winglets? aren't these more efficient for shorter routes? the ER models do ULH. I think raked wingtips are much more optimized for 777-type missions.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
Winglets? aren't these more efficient for shorter routes?

I believe it is the reverse. For example NZ will have winglets on their trans Tasman A320's but not on the domestic ones.
 
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Semaex
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting SUNRISEVALLEY (Reply 3):
I believe it is the reverse. For example NZ will have winglets on their trans Tasman A320's but not on the domestic ones.

I guess it's a matter of economics. But then the A320 isn't capable of what the 777 can do, and I think if the A320 could be bought/retrofitted with raked wingtips, NZ would go for that option.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
morrisond
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Or the other thought, is that if you were going to change the wingbox on the 777 anyways, and most of the systems, why not just use that new wing box/ wing with the 787 Barrel/cockpit/tail, which should be a bunch lighter than the 777. You do give up width as max you are 9w vs. 10W, however you may be able to go a little longer than 77W, as you would need new gear anyways for the higher weight, and you could design it to give you enough clearance. You may be able to sling 95K GTF's under the wing and outdue the 350 which is 9w (although with a little more room) as well.

The often speculated 787-11 and -12. How much smaller/less capable would they actually be? There would be lots of room in the belly for cargo.

Seems like a lot better plan than investing Billions into upgradeing a 20 year old barrel design, that is very space inefficient.

Put the 787 wing on the photocopier and hit 'enlarge', no systems to redo, other than new nose gear, no new interior to redesign, no new production chain to figure out, etc...
 
UAL747
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
Winglets? aren't these more efficient for shorter routes? the ER models do ULH. I think raked wingtips are much more optimized for 777-type missions.

Then why are they being installed on the 767-300ER's and not raked wingtips like the 764? 764 does much shorter missions.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
gigneil
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:58 pm

Raked wingtips create a lot more force on the wing, a, and b take up more gate space. So they're not quite so easy to retrofit.

NS
 
UAL747
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:02 pm

Here you go:



UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 777-8/-9 Two-phase Upgrade?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
What if Boeing did this in a two-phase operation?

It's technically possible, but it would instantly double your testing costs (not an insignificant part of a program) and potentially piss off customers because it would introduce major mixed-fleet issues.

Tom.