oldeuropean
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LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:54 pm

LH is very pleased about their A380s and according to this report in talks with Airbus for more.

Sorry only in German:
http://www.airliners.de/wirtschaft/b...erhandelt-ueber-weitere-a380/25286

But so far no specific details are mentioned.
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Thread starter):
But so far no specific details are mentioned.

Still it is good news that another very satisfied and important customer is seriously thinking of converting (a part of) their options into new firm orders.

Especially this sentence:

Quote:
Das Flugzeug habe alle Erwartungen übertroffen. Passagiere und Crews seien begeistert.

or (translated): The airplane has exceeded all expectations"

is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering.  .
 
kl911
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
or (translated): The airplane has exceeded all expectations"

Thats very good news for the A380's future as new queen of the skies. Maybe more airlines will order, now a quality airline like LH is stating its an even better then expected plane.
 
JU068
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:12 pm

Could this influence their committment to the new 747 in the future?
 
as739x
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:12 pm

Nice. Year-round San Francisco service please.
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AirbusA370
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:18 pm

My money is on a (already rumoured) A380-900 launch with LH as launch customer
 
steman
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:45 pm

The article says that LH has 15 options but I recall the options being only 5. Fifteen is the number of firm orders, of which 8 have been delivered so far.
If the options are just 5, it is highly probable that they will be all converted into firm orders, maybe for delivery after 2014/15
But I do not expect the fleet to grow over 20 examples, especially when there will be 20 (+20 options) B747-8i.
Still a big fleet!
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting Steman (Reply 6):
The article says that LH has 15 options but I recall the options being only 5.

As far as I can tell you are correct. On Wikipedia (not always the most reliable source) it is also stated that LH has only 5 options. Personally I thought they had 15 + 15 for their A380's (and 20 + 20 for their B748i's).

So it might be that is what they are negotiating about. Order more additional A380's then they hold options for.     .

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A380_orders_and_deliveries
 
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copa330200
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
The airplane has exceeded all expectations

fantastic  

hope they close the deal for the expected 380-900  Wow! !!!!!
On the run !!!
 
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par13del
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering.

Why the smilie, if the a/c is good its good.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Maybe more airlines will order, now a quality airline like LH is stating its an even better then expected plane.

Is this a shot at other airlines who operate the a/c in addition to and before LH?

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
Could this influence their committment to the new 747 in the future?

Sure, reduce the number, cancel the order or provide more proof that they can co-exist in their fleet as they server different markets.
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
Why the smiley, if the a/c is good its good.

I am just happy that they qualify it as very good.  
 
baroque
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering.

Why the smilie, if the a/c is good its good.

You probably went over the weekly quota for observing that someone actually likes the A380 EPA100.  Wow!

That LH likes it is good, but of itself not that much more remarkable than SQ. Where are the latest ones in the "slimming program"?
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
You probably went over the weekly quota for observing that someone actually likes the A380 EPA100.

Maybe I did? Shame on me.  
 
atnight
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:37 pm

I for one hope the LH A380 fleet grows... Give it more time, the A380 will become more popular among all its operators and the order book will keep on growing.... I don't know why everyone loves to stick to the past... the A380 is the way of the present and future in VLA... I honestly think that LH won't be needing all 748i, and I wouldn't be surprised they don't take all 20 and instead use the A380 more... once they receive the aircraft, we'll know for sure what LH decides...

Hope to see more A380 with LH and looking forward to flying on one soon.
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Carls
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:48 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
Could this influence their committment to the new 747 in the future?

I think so, If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing. While I do not know what the shortages are and I believe no body knows other then Boeing and Cargolux it could easily be that they are replicated in the passenger version too; pushing Boeing to either cancel the order due to the delay or just refusing to receive it.
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting carls (Reply 14):
I think so, If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing. While I do not know what the shortages are and I believe no body knows other then Boeing and Cargolux it could easily be that they are replicated in the passenger version too; pushing Boeing to either cancel the order due to the delay or just refusing to receive it.

I think you were referring to the Airline (LH in this case) rather than Boeing in your last sentence.

It would be quite interesting to see what the Boeing/Lufthansa 748i contract states regarding the issue of overweight/underperformance and LH's right to step back from the order.
Of course, it will probably boil down to the price dropping rather than LH cancelling the order, even though Boeing might make a loss on the 20 frames then. There is nothing worse for an OEM than it's launch costumer backing-off!
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 15):
though Boeing might make a loss on the 20 frames then

With the launch discounts on the one side, and the enormous cost overruns on this program on the other side, I am guessing that Boeing will make a loss on these airplanes anyway. I think and hope LH will accept the B748i, and it will put a smile on my face if I see it in the around FRA where I frequently am for business.  .
 
Carls
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 15):
I think you were referring to the Airline (LH in this case) rather than Boeing in your last sentence.

You are right, I meant to say LH, not Boeing. Thank you.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:03 pm

Congratulations to Airbus!  

Really impressive! Does anyone know if the number of A380 orders have exceeded the break even point?
 
747400sp
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 5):
My money is on a (already rumoured) A380-900 launch with LH as launch customer
Quoting copa330200 (Reply 8):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
The airplane has exceeded all expectations

fantastic

hope they close the deal for the expected 380-900 !!!!!

If they do launch the A380-900, I will fly LH if I ever visit Germany.
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:32 pm

1. LH has already stated that the 747-8i will doing well on the routes that is planned for. There will be no surprise prior delivery. And LH has no Al-Baker in the gremiums ....

2. Due to the stretched overdeck the 747-8i has better aerodynamics so the fuel burn issues will be partly outweighed. In the course of time and the further improvements the performance will be better than already expected and there are no doubts that LH will also exercise the options as well.

3. It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.

Well, maybe, maybe not. But it is highly doubtful that anybody can pre-order an A380-900 already or any time soon. I expect that to happen at the earliest in 2015 with and EIS close to 2020. But that is just my expectation, so I could be totally wrong or right.  .
 
Carls
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.

No offence here mate, but it is higly doubtful that you might have any idea about what the people who plans for LH fleet is thinking.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
2. Due to the stretched overdeck the 747-8i has better aerodynamics so the fuel burn issues will be partly outweighed.

I seriously doubt that this will make any significant difference in the big picture given that any advantages this might give will already have been calculated and factored into Boeing pre-delivery guarantees for the passenger version.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
and there are no doubts that LH will also exercise the options as well.

And you know this how exactly?

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
3. It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.

Again do you have any fact to back this up or this this just speculation and personal preference dressed up as certitude????
 
Flyglobal
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:52 pm

I can easily imagine, that there will be no single order for A380. If so we may see the A380 together with A350s.

Also: I could imagine that LH may also trade their early birds on the used plane market after some 7-10 years and may achieve a fairly good price, given the previous discounts. They may want to get a good price for the next batch and may want that to secure rather now then later.

Or: I wouldn't be surprised if they would even be Launch customer for the recently mentioned 389.

Regards

Flyglobal
 
ikramerica
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:50 am

Could they put a proper C product in it now? The hard product is a disgrace.
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nomorerjs
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:18 am

Glad to see LH and the 380 doing well to the point of additional orders! Hopefully we will see this lovely bird at ORD one day in LH livery!
 
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Stitch
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:29 am

Quoting carls (Reply 14):
If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing.
Quoting carls (Reply 22):
No offence here mate, but it is higly doubtful that you might have any idea about what the people who plans for LH fleet is thinking.

I thought the topic was about LH adding more A380-800s, but since you asked, LH have already said that the 747-8 meets all contractual performance guarantees and therefore LH would be on less than rock-solid legal grounds to reject the frames on that basis.

Not to mention the 747-8's started production a good bit later than the 747-8Fs, so Boeing has had time to remove excess structural weight due to the amount of structure the two models share.
 
nomorerjs
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:34 am

It would be very nice to see ORD-FRA on 1X 748, 1X380, ORD-MUC on 346, ORD-DUS on 333, and ORD-Berling on something!
 
plunaaircanada
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:39 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
3. It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.

With that username I also find it highly doubtful that you would believe that LH is interested in the A380-900  
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tullamarine
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 19):
If they do launch the A380-900, I will fly LH if I ever visit Germany.

Knowing they've sold 2 Y class tickets to FRA and back will undoubtedly tip them over the edge and force the purchase.   
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jacobin777
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting carls (Reply 14):
Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
Could this influence their committment to the new 747 in the future?

I think so, If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing. While I do not know what the shortages are and I believe no body knows other then Boeing and Cargolux it could easily be that they are replicated in the passenger version too; pushing Boeing to either cancel the order due to the delay or just refusing to receive it.

LH has already been on record the past day or so stating that the Cargolux and Atlas situations will have no bearing on their decisions regarding the B748i. They have even stated that even in its current un-optimized form, there will be basically no payload/range penalties for LH's B748i operations.

I think its wishful thinking more than anything else by a few here.   
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RayChuang
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:37 am

I think LH wants more A380's because its routes from FRA to JFK, LAX and SFO demand such a big plane almost year-round (try getting a ticket on the FRA-SFO route on short notice--good luck!).
 
JU068
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:14 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20):
1. LH has already stated that the 747-8i will doing well on the routes that is planned for. There will be no surprise prior delivery. And LH has no Al-Baker in the gremiums ....

Sorry if this might sound stupid but what kind of routes are destined to be served by a 747-8? And why? Is the A380 to big for them or is there some other reason?

Thanks.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
or (translated): The airplane has exceeded all expectations"

is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering

I would even say that passengers are falling in love with the A380 and in general what i see is that many accept to pay a premium to fly the (very) big bird.

Good to see LH looking for more A380 !
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:25 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
I think its wishful thinking more than anything else by a few here.

  

You can call it "wet dreams" of some airbus fan boys that LH will cancel it's 747-8i.

No doubt the A380 is a good plane. But the 747-8i will also be a good plane and do her job just fine. It's time that some guys here have to accept it.
 
328JET
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 39):
You can call it "wet dreams" of some airbus fan boys that LH will cancel it's 747-8i.

They will not cancel their order, but maybe some of their options. (And convert them to the new B777-9X)

There are rumours about good expected results with ongoing fuel burn improvements of the A388, especially with introduction of Trent XWB technology or the complete engine.

The B748I has a higher than expected fuel burn, so it might end with an improved A380, which burns only slightly more fuel than the much smaller B748I.

But to come back to LH and the A380:


I see LH ending with 20 A388s and 15 A389s.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:15 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 16):
With the launch discounts on the one side, and the enormous cost overruns on this program on the other side, I am guessing that Boeing will make a loss on these airplanes anyway. I think and hope LH will accept the B748i, and it will put a smile on my face if I see it in the around FRA where I frequently am for business.

At the price LH is getting these 748i's, it'd be a crime if they rejected their delivery  
LH has a huge gap between the A346 and the A388. They need a 744 replacement and they don't have time to wait and see what the A3510 will look like. More importantly, they operate 744's into a lot of airports that will not be A380 ready for many years to come.
While for some 77W operators, it suits them to fill this gap by growing their 77W fleet, LH has made the decision that growing their A346 fleet was not an option, IMHO. So for better or for worse, they are stuck with the 748i, which when you think about it, it's not a bad plane to be stuck with 
 
oldeuropean
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 41):
At the price LH is getting these 748i's, it'd be a crime if they rejected their delivery.
LH has a huge gap between the A346 and the A388.

Yep, that's why I think that they'll stick with their 20 748. (unless they get a sweet price for 777NG instead)
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
na
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:54 pm

Good to hear the A380 is performing so well. And good to hear, that LH is optimistic enough to consider more orders.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 40):
They will not cancel their order, but maybe some of their options. (And convert them to the new B777-9X)

Lets see regarding the options. Much too early to speculate. If the 748I performs as wished for and in 5 years or so there is an engine upgrade making it even a few % more economical, I could see them converting some options. If not, then there will be more A380s.
I do not think that we will ever see a pax-Triple Seven in LH colours. LH is not a "me-too"-airline, its a leader. I bet that they will go for A350s for the "middle class", -900s and -1000s to replace the A340s until the early 20s. Or split the order between 787s and A350s, the Boeings to replace the A330s and A343s, the A350s for the A346s.
 
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EPA001
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:15 pm

Quoting na (Reply 43):
I do not think that we will ever see a pax-Triple Seven in LH colours. LH is not a "me-too"-airline, its a leader. I bet that they will go for A350s for the "middle class", -900s and -1000s to replace the A340s until the early 20s. Or split the order between 787s and A350s, the Boeings to replace the A330s and A343s, the A350s for the A346s.

That is exactly what I am expecting regarding LH's future fleet as well.   
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:20 pm

Very good to hear LH considers ordering more A380s.

Quoting na (Reply 43):
I do not think that we will ever see a pax-Triple Seven in LH colours. LH is not a "me-too"-airline, its a leader.

So more than 1100 pax 777s have been ordered simply because someone ordered 34 frames in 1990. What an interesting theory...      


PH

[Edited 2011-09-24 06:26:19]
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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par13del
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting na (Reply 43):
I do not think that we will ever see a pax-Triple Seven in LH colours. LH is not a "me-too"-airline, its a leader.

So is this type comment of them being a leader a ringing endorsement of Boeing's decision to make the 748i?
I only ask because we are in an A380 discussion thread and the option to bash the 748i has already been taken up so...
 
na
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 45):
So more than 1200 777s have been ordered simply because someone ordered 34 frames in 1990. What an interesting theory...  

Theory? What theory? You want to understand me wrong, do you? I of cause mean anyone ordering 777s NOW is a me-too-airline. With so many ordered you dont make any other point by ordering it than crying "me too".

Quoting par13del (Reply 46):
So is this type comment of them being a leader a ringing endorsement of Boeing's decision to make the 748i?
I only ask because we are in an A380 discussion thread and the option to bash the 748i has already been taken up so...

I answered a post here , nothing else.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):
That is exactly what I am expecting regarding LH's future fleet as well.   

Thanks. Good to hear someone can understand what LH is most likely going for, instead of just wishing.

I thoroughly welcome more A380s in LHs fleet as I do welcome the 748I!
 
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SEPilot
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:41 pm

For all of the Airbus fans who are anticipating LH being disappointed in the 748i, remember that the A380 fuel burn also missed targets initially, and was compensated by better than expected aerodynamics (gee, where have I heard that before?) And the A380's have been steadily improved, just like the 748 will be. Let's wait and see how it actually performs in service before we cast judgment on it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:48 pm

Quoting na (Reply 47):
I of cause mean anyone ordering 777s NOW is a me-too-airline. With so many ordered you dont make any other point by ordering it than crying "me too".

You can twist it how much you want, but the 777 has proven to be an excellent aircraft - and that's why airlines have ordered it. Performance is the key - nothing else. 961 planes have been delivered, 319s are on order. That speaks for itself.


PH

[Edited 2011-09-24 06:49:08]
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Centre
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering.

It's LH, they are happy with the A346 which according to many people here on the forum is a piece of junk that should be put to death sooner rather than later.
And they were able to make record profits with it.

That was for the A346, so their feeling must be quite different when it comes to A388.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 49):
You can twist it how much you want, but the 777 has proven to be an excellent aircraft - and that's why airlines have ordered it.

This is a past tense statement, which validates exactly what he was saying. The 777 "has been" a fantastic aircraft. But its time is coming to an end and I'd be shocked, I repeat SHOCKED to see any sizable orders for new operators of the current 777 models. and that includes LH. At this point everyone is waiting to see what Boeing and Airbus will do in that segment of the market. Any 777/A340 orders will be mere "top-ups" from exiting curomers. I don't think even A and B know very well what they want to do for that market segment.
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 39):
o doubt the A380 is a good plane. But the 747-8i will also be a good plane and do her job just fine. It's time that some guys here have to accept it.

I don't think there are to many people that do not accept it... the question is whether the 748i can bring the crowds like the A380 can. I cannot tell you how many times I have flown out of a terminal with an A380 to see people staring out the window at it- including pushback and departure which means they are not even pax on the thing. I rarely if ever see the same thing with the 747, and besides aviation enthusiasts no one is going to be able to tell the difference or care whether they are flying on a 744 or 748. It is the sad reality of things. The A380 does not look like any other plane in the sky, and the hype and interest in it reflects that.

The real question is whether LH decides to take options on the 748i's or whether they stick with what they have and take more A380 options instead. I think the odds that they don't take delivery of the new Boeings are about the same as B6 announcing nonstop service to Nepal tomorrow.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: LH In Talks With Airbus For More A380

Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:19 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 51):
But its time is coming to an end and I'd be shocked, I repeat SHOCKED to see any sizable orders for new operators of the current 777 models. and that includes LH. At this point everyone is waiting to see what Boeing and Airbus will do in that segment of the market. Any 777/A340 orders will be mere "top-ups" from exiting curomers.

I didn't deny that. I was simply pointing out why airlines have ordered the 777.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!