sdexplorer00
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United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:28 pm

Reuters) - Pilots at United Airlines asked a federal judge on Monday to halt integration with Continental Airlines, saying the company is moving too fast in its bid to merge operations fully.

The United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York, sought a stay of Friday's deadline to complete the next phase of training and begin new procedures.

The union said the proposed level and timeline of training necessary for United Continental Holdings Inc (UAL.N) to earn single operating authority from Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is inadequate. .......

Full article at http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...RSS&feedName=innovationNews&rpc=43

Don't understand this move. It seems the pilots and Delta and Northwest had a more forward way of looking things and that the merger would be a benefit for them.
 
gigneil
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:31 pm

This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.

Its shameful.

NS
 
sdexplorer00
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:31 pm

More information here http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United...d-new-apf-1992527133.html?x=0&.v=5

Highlight "Wendy Morse, the head of the pilot union at United and a 777 captain, said pilots watched a computer-based slide show that lasts 54 minutes, and that some pilots have been designated to answer questions from fellow aviators. But pilots have gotten no classroom instruction or other training in the new procedures, she said.

Changes include allowing the autopilot to fly the plane out of a severe wind gust rather than flying the plane manually as United pilots currently do, she said.

"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

Other changes include the terms that pilots use to update each other and air traffic controllers on their progress toward landing, and whether the captain or the first officer turns off the landing light after landing.

No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said."
 
gigneil
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:33 pm

I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.

I'd love to hear from the ATPs on this board.

NS
 
flyorski
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:34 pm

Sounds reasonable to request adequate training when procedures change.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
gigneil
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:36 pm

Sure. What is highly suspect is that the company didn't give it to them, or that nobody complained before now.

NS
 
ikramerica
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

I highly doubt this scenario. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. Sounds like hyperbole and trying to shock the court into a delay with something that the wouldn't understand as a non-pilot.

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said."

Grow up. Study more if you are uncomfortable. It sounds as if all these "little things" are all spelled out, so what are the union spokesholes trying to convey? That UA pilots aren't able to learn new things? What are they paid the most on the plane for then?
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Tugger
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:49 pm

Quote:
No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said.

How do these pilots handle a checkride for a type rating? I mean, my god! All the little changes that are required to be learned and known in order to pass? It's crazy! It's just unfair to expect someone to remember so much in just a few months (or less).

Tugg
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catiii
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:56 pm

So my understanding, from reading the articles on this subject, is that the United pilots are balking at adopting a number of the current CO procedures as part of their operation because they do not deem them to be safe or adequate. So, in essence, what the UA pilots are saying is that CO pilots operate in an unsafe manner. I'm sure that is going to make the CO pilots feel real good...
 
delta2ual
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:05 pm

I don't know who to believe. If you ask many NW pilots, DL operates in an unsafe manner (just sayin' what I've heard). Personally, when I flew for DL, I only felt safe on DL. I hated flying anyone else. I know that was silly now.

Back on topic, I think no matter how long the training is-someone would complain it needs to be longer or more thorough.
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catiii
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 9):
Back on topic, I think no matter how long the training is-someone would complain it needs to be longer or more thorough.

Absolutely right. "We fear change" is the mantra of most any work group.
 
Mir
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
I highly doubt this scenario. Could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Going from handflying a windshear escape maneuver to letting the autopilot do it is a major technique change, and I'd want some serious training in the simulator before I felt comfortable with it (my company's policy is to handfly those).

The other stuff...eh, who turns off the landing light (and other such stuff) isn't a huge deal. But the problem is that when such things are ingrained into your head (as they are when one has been doing things a certain way for a while), it's not that easy to change on a dime, especially if one is expecting perfection (i.e. the wrong person turning off the landing light a couple of times at first is not acceptable). An hour's slideshow with no classroom training isn't going to cut it if you're looking to substantially change flow patterns IMO.

-Mir
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mcdu
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:25 pm

The complaint is that UA is changing the ENTIRE flight manual for the airplane. With changes in which pilot in the cockpit configures the airplane (F/O or Capt). ie; today at parking the Captain configures all the switches on the overhead panel. On sept 30 the F/O becomes responsible for all the items. The callouts and configurations that are used on approach being changed; ie what we say at a configuration point and when and now to configure the airplane. Changing the titles of the checklist we use. ie; final descent checklist becomes landing checklist. We will be setting different altitudes in the MCP on approach versus what we do today. In many instances the changes are that the F/O does all the duties the Captain used to do and vice versa.

This is not a YEAR to learn. This was rolled out on 8-30-11 with a completion of self training by 9-23. The pilots are expected to read the entire manual to find ALL the changes (also the manual is not organized as our current book is). You don't want your crew trying to find something in a critical phase of flight when they need to call upon a checklist that might keep the airplane in a safe condition. In the past these types of maneuvers were taught by Pilot Instructors in simulators at our training center. Instead we are given two hours of power point slides to train on the new procedures.

These 30 day cycles of changes are difficult to keep up with. After this round there is another scheduled for Nov and Jan. Personally I can keep up but there is a great deal of self teaching and ambiguity to many of the sections that are changing.
 
ikramerica
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Personally I can keep up but there is a great deal of self teaching and ambiguity to many of the sections that are changing.

So... other pilots at UA aren't as capable as you? Or do you object to the need to study on your own? Seriously, this kind of thing happens in every industry.

Sounds as if they are also not making all the changes at once, but in a 3 phase schedule to ease the burden. I really don't sympathize. If your fellow captains and F/Os can't handle the job asked of them, there are plenty of people in the seniority list who can and will take over your spot, and plenty of people ready to be hired on the low end of the totem pole who would gladly learn these procedures.

You have a secure job that pays you well. That's more than most people in America can say. Stop complaining about it.
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flyorski
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
An hour's slideshow with no classroom training isn't going to cut it if you're looking to substantially change flow patterns IMO.

  

This is the crux of the situation.
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GreenArc
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):
I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.

I'd love to hear from the ATPs on this board.

Training began less than two months ago. Training at CO started even later, because the FAA did not deem their original training program adequate and ordered it enhanced.

There are real safety issues with making major procedural changes, one on top of the other, without the benefit of hands on training in classroom or simulator. This is not how things have ever been done at UA and a merger is no excuse to relax those standards. The fact is, there is a rush to SOC driven by Wall Street and that rush is compromising operational safety. Pilots at UA are facing major changes in procedures later this week. Any pilot deviation from the new standard is subject to FAA enforcement action. As you can imagine, other outcomes are much more serious.

ALPA has repeatedly offered to work with the company to revise and improve the training process and has been repeatedly shut out. The original SOC timeline could probably have been maintained had management accepted the offer of cooperation. ALPA's offer to cooperate was never conditioned on or influenced by the contract negotiations.
 
F9Fan
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:26 am

Well, I know it sounds petty, but I think the union actually has a point here. In the cockpit, you want to make sure everyone knows who is supposed to do what, so the pilot and first officer don't think the other guy was supposed to do something critical (like say, lower the landing gear on landing) and cause a worse problem.
 
catiii
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:33 am

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
The fact is, there is a rush to SOC driven by Wall Street and that rush is compromising operational safety.

That's an opinion though, not a fact.

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
ALPA has repeatedly offered to work with the company to revise and improve the training process and has been repeatedly shut out.

ALPA at both UA and CO? Or ALPA at UA? Because, it would appear from the news, this is solely a UA MEC driven issue, and not an issue at the CO MEC or at the national level of ALPA.

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
The original SOC timeline could probably have been maintained had management accepted the offer of cooperation.

So then ALPA is slowing down the SOC timeline intentionally because it was either their way or the highway?

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
ALPA's offer to cooperate was never conditioned on or influenced by the contract negotiations.

Not overtly no. But let's face it: this isn't something you see the CO MEC pushing, so one would have to be naive to think that the UA MEC isn't connecting the two.
 
30west
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:09 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):

So... other pilots at UA aren't as capable as you? Or do you object to the need to study on your own? Seriously, this kind of thing happens in every industry.

Sounds as if they are also not making all the changes at once, but in a 3 phase schedule to ease the burden. I really don't sympathize. If your fellow captains and F/Os can't handle the job asked of them, there are plenty of people in the seniority list who can and will take over your spot, and plenty of people ready to be hired on the low end of the totem pole who would gladly learn these procedures.

You have a secure job that pays you well. That's more than most people in America can say. Stop complaining about it.

You have no idea what your talking about.

I do , I'm attempting the training now. The manual is completely changing on the 767 and 777 fleet, the manuals will change again in 30 more days also. The Feds bought off on the changes since it is all up to one person the POI , who do you think he really works for . The new UAL when merged will only need one not two since CAL has one now. The manuals are full of errors they put out POSBDs to revise the printed errors that were rushed thru. The flows, memory items, callouts, procedures and manual all changed. The normal section went from 84 pages to 192 pages and the original 84 pages were drastically changed. I started the 3 hour total CBT on Sep 20 you have to be ready to go in 10 days and the CBT training simply points out the section changed not what changed. This is grossly negligent especially compared to how we have trained in the past. The pilots on the 747 and Airbus have almost no changes so no big deal for them the rest of us need help.

30west
 
30west
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:11 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
Not overtly no. But let's face it: this isn't something you see the CO MEC pushing, so one would have to be naive to think that the UA MEC isn't connecting the two.

The CAL procedures arent changing. Their manual is based on the manufacture manual. The UAL was vastly different.
 
tozairport
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.
Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 5):
Sure. What is highly suspect is that the company didn't give it to them, or that nobody complained before now.

I would sure like to see you retract your callous and uninformed statements. That probably won't happen though. In the future you might want to take a minute to actually learn about a topic before you throw out such barbs. Here are some facts for you if you would like to learn something:

- This is not union posturing. This is about keep ourselves and our passengers safe. The company has not allowed ALPA Subject Matter Experts to have any input on the content or the delivery of the "training".

- We have not had a year. We have had 30 days or so for each module. The first phase was rife with technical problems that caused many pilots to have incomplete training. The company set up a "technical help desk" - in India - to assist pilots with training issues. Do to communications barriers, this help desk was totally ineffective and even signed some pilots off as complete even though they had never actually completed the training!

- We have been complaining about this training since it was first proposed. It just hadn't made it to the media yet. Managements continued refusal to work with the pilot group AT ALL has caused the necessary step of asking for an injunction.

- These are not just simple changes like "who turns on a light bulb". Management is fundamentally changing the way we operate. Changing things like windshear and go-around profiles, how we respond to and execute emergency checklists, how we alert the flight attendants, etc. All of this is being done without 1 minute in a sim to actually practice and apply what we have "learned".

- I could go on with more but that would not be productive. Just like so much of what management has done (pass travel policy, Ipads, IT integration), they ignore the stakeholders and just do whatever they want.

This injunction request is not about the pilots of United trying to hold up the SOC implementation. It is ALL about upholding the level of safety that we require and our customers expect. It is not about the JCBA and it is not because we think that the procedures the CAL pilots use are bad. We just want to be trained in a manner that is effective and that ensures our procedures and practices are as safe as possible. So please, next time take a moment to learn about the subject before you spew your anti-labor venom.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
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fxramper
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:20 am

There are a lot of hurdles for UA/CO to overcome in the totally merger, but this isn't a priority. I've run into plenty of issues with something being UA instead of CO and been told by a CSA or reservations agent it's messed up because they are having integration problems.

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Thread starter):
Don't understand this move. It seems the pilots and Delta and Northwest had a more forward way of looking things and that the merger would be a benefit for them.

Apples and oranges.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.

  
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):
This injunction request is not about the pilots of United trying to hold up the SOC implementation.

Sorry, but it absolutely is. The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
Changes include allowing the autopilot to fly the plane out of a severe wind gust rather than flying the plane manually as United pilots currently do, she said.

"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

This in itself is a fairly minor change and more in-line with boeing procedures. We recently also incorporated this change. All it took was an e-mail from the company and re-wording in the manuals. We are all happy with it. No training required, afterall we all know how to turn on the autopilot and we all know how to monitor autopilot performance. This actually makes it an easier manouvre as it frees up mental capacity to do things like monitor our rate of climb/descent and out radio altitude, if ground contact is an issue. Of course there is also the line in the manual that states that if the autopilot is not performing satisfactorily then we are to disconnect and fly right up to the PLI (Pitch Limit Indicators) (i.e. edge of stick shaker).

Obviously this is not the only change the UA pilots are being faced with and when a whole host of things change it can be tough to learn the new way, especially when the old way might have become deeply ingrained in a pilots mind. One change is easy...lots of changes take time to learn, especially if they are complicated ones.

At Cathay we used to take the manufacturer's operating manuals and tear them apart, taking bits we liked and then rewriting the entire things our way. We always did things very differently to the manufacturer but over the last few years we have been slowly aligning our operations to those of Boeing and Airbus and flying the way the manufacturers meant for their planes to be flown. This has taken years of minor changes here and there. I can't imagine changing all in one go though!
 
tozairport
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
Sorry, but it absolutely is. The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.

When one party completely ignores the points of another party to the detriment of everyone's safety it leaves very few avenues open other than the legal one. We have brought this up with the FAA, but they move at glacial speed. We, obviously, have brought it up with UA management, but they have ignored all of our requests and inputs. Pilots are not getting trained but are being expected to perform items and procedures as if they had been trained. So it is about safety and is NOT about unreasonably delaying the SOC. Your statements, like those of so many others on this thread, do nothing to disprove this.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
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par13del
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Personally I can keep up but there is a great deal of self teaching and ambiguity to many of the sections that are changing.

Funny how we ignore the comments of an actual pilot, what does ambiguity mean, does it have something to do with the other pilot - 30West - who posted about errors in the manual and that the index only points to the section of the manual thats changed and not the actual pages?
The last few threads on AF447 went all in on proper pilot training to handle high altitude stalls, one would have thought that the experienced pilots would have already known that, guess if we follow this we can see reasons why such things can happen.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.

My question would be how is it to be resolved?
It does not seem as if there was much discussions with the pilots, does the combined company have too many pilots? What are the penalties if the wrong crew member turns off the landing lights twice( an example)? What are considered serious failures to follow procedure and what are considered minor? If a number of pilots are demoted or loose pay due to suspensions or even fired, we will say that the airline is ensuring that their operations are safe, could it be anything else?
If there is no intent to engage how is one to attempt to get involved in the process? Pilot groups at US Airways are still now merged and the merger is going on at full speed and no one really cares what the pilots actually do, at least here the pilots are talking about procedure and not list and where pilots are stapled.

[Edited 2011-09-27 13:15:31 by srbmod]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 26):
Your statements, like those of so many others on this thread, do nothing to disprove this.

How does this application even come close to meeting the standards for equitable relief? If I represented UA (I don't), I'd seriously consider moving for sanctions - this complaint is at best borderline frivolous and at worse an abuse of the judicial process.

Filing a lawsuit that has no chance of success isn't about safety. I don't know what it's about, but it isn't about safety.
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micstatic
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:50 am

I agree that these are serious issues.

Quoting tozairport (Reply 26):
When one party completely ignores the points of another party to the detriment of everyone's safety it leaves very few avenues open other than the legal one. We have brought this up with the FAA, but they move at glacial speed. We, obviously, have brought it up with UA management, but they have ignored all of our requests and inputs. Pilots are not getting trained but are being expected to perform items and procedures as if they had been trained. So it is about safety and is NOT about unreasonably delaying the SOC. Your statements, like those of so many others on this thread, do nothing to disprove this.

While I certainly appreciate all the input the pilots have added to this topic, I do have a question. Corporate pilots transfer from various make and models to drastically different types quite often. To me going from say a G-IV to a Lear 60 must be much tougher than procedure changes on the same aircraft? Am I wrong?
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gigneil
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):

I would sure like to see you retract your callous and uninformed statements. That probably won't happen though.

I'd be happy to. I'm a rational human being, and I did in fact ask for re-education in a post you didn't bother to quote.

I have heard many comments from insiders that support this being, primarily, a union action. However, if there are pilots here that do feel that the changes are too great to handle I respect that position.

I find it very difficult to comprehend that nobody in management, not even the chief pilot, hears these objections.

NS
 
flightopsguy
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting 30west (Reply 19):
The Feds bought off on the changes since it is all up to one person the POI

Not quite the case. The changes to procedures and manuals during a merger for SOC are written by a joint team of members of each work group from both of the legacy carriers, then go through a CSAT safety review, then are submitted to a team of FAA inspectors (the JTT) who either approve them or send pieces back disapproved for rework.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting micstatic (Reply 29):
While I certainly appreciate all the input the pilots have added to this topic, I do have a question. Corporate pilots transfer from various make and models to drastically different types quite often. To me going from say a G-IV to a Lear 60 must be much tougher than procedure changes on the same aircraft? Am I wrong?

Of course, but when you change aircraft types, you get training, sit exams, fly the simulator, get training experience in the real aircraft etc... You don't just turn up to work one day, get given a manual and then are expected to fly it!

It appears this is the issue here...that these pilots are expected to completely change the way they are doing things without any training. I do not know enough details about this deal to comment on whether its right or wrong, just saying its different to the case of changing an aircraft type as a corporate (or any) pilot.
 
AAR90
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:06 am

For you non-professional pilots, consider the following scenario that played out at AA a few years ago.

AA "re-wrote" its aircraft operating manuals to be "more in line with" the manufacturer (Boeing). Each fleet was done ONE-AT-A-TIME. Each changeover took 9 MONTHS --to ensure EVERY pilot passed thru the ground school/simulator recurrent training cycle using the "new" procedures/manuals.

For the 738, very little actual procedural changes were made (names, words, etc., but not procedures); however, WHERE everything was located in the manuals was completely different. Much time in the schoolhouse was spent on HOW to find information in the operating manuals! The time spent ensuring EVERYBODY was CHECKED by the company instructors & check airmen was INVALUABLE to the smooth (at least as smooth as change can be) transition to the new "way" of doing things.

The public information to date suggests UA is trying to make a complete overhaul of the "old UA" procedures with NO classroom time, NO instructor time, NO simulator time and most importantly, NO VERIFICATION of successful learning of these new procedures by the company.

Is a public law suit the proper way to slow down the process and possibly get it changed to something that can be verified to actually work? Who knows. The probability is that ALPA as well as many individuals within the company have been trying to date but without success. Will this work? Again, who knows. But perhaps an outside force looking "in" will get management to take a second look at what they are trying to accomplish.... and how. I read nothing in the publicly available reports to indicate UA ALPA wants to slow down the integration of UA/CO, just that they want PROPER training on what is (has been) essentially CO's way of doing things.

AAR90
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catiii
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:08 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
Funny how we ignore the comments of an actual pilot

..who, respectfully, has an agenda seeing as how his union is the one pushing the case.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 32):
It appears this is the issue here...that these pilots are expected to completely change the way they are doing things without any training.

But they are getting computer based training. The question is this: does a United pilot need to sit in a simulator to learn how to call for the "landing checklist" instead of the "descent checklist," or to know that at the gate the F/O configures the overhead panel instead of the Captain, among other things? Probably not. But the UA MEC is saying they do, in order to throw up a canard and put the screws to the company on a joint contract agreement.

Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
It does not seem as if there was much discussions with the pilots,

Now does anyone actually believe that? Of course the union is going to say they were never consulted, otherwise where would their case be? Does anyone actually think that a bunch of people just showed up at United one day and said "hey, let's just change everything and not consult the UA MEC?" Of course that's not the case.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 33):
But perhaps an outside force looking "in" will get management to take a second look at what they are trying to accomplish.... and how.

You are presupposing that management is in the wrong.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 33):
I read nothing in the publicly available reports to indicate UA ALPA wants to slow down the integration of UA/CO

Except that the UA MEC is suing to, my emphasis here, to HALT integration!

Question: what did the DL and NW pilots do?



[Edited 2011-09-26 19:11:32]

[Edited 2011-09-26 19:15:58]
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 33):
The public information to date suggests UA is trying to make a complete overhaul of the "old UA" procedures with NO classroom time, NO instructor time, NO simulator time and most importantly, NO VERIFICATION of successful learning of these new procedures by the company.

Yes but my question is this: is that even legal? Would the FAA or anyone else allow it?

NS
 
mm320cap
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:20 am

Oh the irony. The union-hating armchair quartbacks have decided that they have figured out what is REALLY going on here and it's not about safety, just posturing. Why is this ironic? Because these are the same people who are getting on United planes right now blissfully confident in their knowledge that the pilots are just posturing, and no safety issue exists. What you don't know, because you don't want to know, is that this is a serious problem for the B767-B777 fleets. Pilots have been doing things the same way for years, and that routine is a huge safety net. Mess with that routine with ZERO formal training, and it's going to be difficult to adopt and remember. Taxi lights, etc. are not the example to looking at. Engine Fire is. Pilots were given a QRH to go fly with, and in most cases the first time they had ever seen it was on their first leg using it. Ok, you have an engine fire.... Now what. No instruction on how to use the manual, and finding/ reading it for the first time while in an actual emergency is wholly inadequate. In many cases, the computer training was faulting and UAL's Indian support staff was just pencil whipping the results

I know, I know. There are many of you on this forum that think that pilots are all just whiny and manipulative, and could never actually have a legitimate safety concern because management MUST always set things up perfectly. You keep dreaming your big dreams, and I'll continue to ignore your ignorant rants and demand that my company equip me to operate at the highest level of safety so I can deliver your family to you in one piece, EVERY time. Your welcome
 
catiii
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:29 am

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 36):
Ok, you have an engine fire.... Now what. No instruction on how to use the manual, and finding/ reading it for the first time while in an actual emergency is wholly inadequate.

Aren't engine fires memory items though?
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:30 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
How does this application even come close to meeting the standards for equitable relief? If I represented UA (I don't), I'd seriously consider moving for sanctions - this complaint is at best borderline frivolous and at worse an abuse of the judicial process.

How can you say that when you know nothing about the specifics of the case, the actions of the company, or even the actions of the Association? What I have described here only scratches the surface of what has been done. I almost wish you were representing United.

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):

Now does anyone actually believe that? Of course the union is going to say they were never consulted, otherwise where would their case be? Does anyone actually think that a bunch of people just showed up at United one day and said "hey, let's just change everything and not consult the UA MEC?" Of course that's not the case.

Actually it is the case. ALPA's SME's were either not allowed input, had their input ignored, or had modules they designed removed from the training curriculum. Your assertion is both inaccurate in it's content and sensationalist in it's delivery. It in know way reflects the facts in the case.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
I find it very difficult to comprehend that nobody in management, not even the chief pilot, hears these objections.

They have heard the objections. Many, many times. THOUSANDS of FSAPs have been written about this training. All of these have been ignored and continue to be ignored. Hence the need for legal action in order to protect the certificates of the pilots and the safety of the passengers and crew.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
You are presupposing that management is in the wrong.

No, I am presupposing that management has "closed eyes" and is unwilling to view things from a different perspective.... that of a line pilot. Quite common in this industry.

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
Except that the UA MEC is suing to, my emphasis here, to HALT integration!

One would need to read the actual lawsuit itself, but I read past the headlines where the text indicates they want to halt the cockpit procedures integration, but only until they get proper training on the new (CO's old) procedures. Nothing says they want to halt the company integration process itself.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
Yes but my question is this: is that even legal? Would the FAA or anyone else allow it?


Yes, all that is required is the FAA Principal Operating Inspector (POI) assigned to UA to "sign-off" on the transition plan... whatever that plan is.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
mcdu
Posts: 900
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RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting Reply 18):

Funny how some on here still try to validate this as a real safety issue rather than a union tactic.

The kool-aid must be really good at UA MEC...


I would be happy to share the bulletin of changes. You can decide for yourself once you have seen the material. I am not opposed to change, however there were serious errors in the material that is STILL being revised as we speak. The final manual is online as the published draft was just that a draft. There are call outs in the manual that we learned during the computer training that are being revised and the final language is not published and we are 4 days from turn on. You really don't want your pilots using improper call outs. This is a human factors issue and breaks down the layers of safety.

Does it mean a plane will crash if they are implemented on the 30th? Probably not but distraction and unfamiliarity are being added to the mix and that is not good. We are now told to we can fly windshear recovery with the AP engaged. I've never seen it demonstrated in a sim or actually done the maneuver with the AP on.

You can have your opinion and I can have mine. If you look at my previous post I do not often back ALPA. But in this instance I think the process is infringing on safety. If an accident did occur as a result of this safety chain issue, II hope you would reconsider your statement
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1256
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 5):
What is highly suspect is that the company didn't give it to them, or that nobody complained before now.

IIRC, CO's Principle Operations Inspector did not approve the original version of the phase 1 training. In other words, from what I've heard from sources at each carrier, this process has been a struggle from the beginning. Also, see below...

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
Training began less than two months ago. Training at CO started even later, because the FAA did not deem their original training program adequate and ordered it enhanced.


...

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
The fact is, there is a rush to SOC driven by Wall Street and that rush is compromising operational safety.

That's an opinion though, not a fact.

What other motivations are there? Bonuses, perhaps? Why push so hard if money isn't at stake?

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):
We have not had a year. We have had 30 days or so for each module. The first phase was rife with technical problems that caused many pilots to have incomplete training. The company set up a "technical help desk" - in India - to assist pilots with training issues. Do to communications barriers, this help desk was totally ineffective and even signed some pilots off as complete even though they had never actually completed the training!

And IIRC, several UAL pilots weren't legal to fly. Of course, that hardly matters to some on this board, but each pilot could be fined up to $10,000 per event (flight) for operating illegally (yes, the air carrier can be fined, too).

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
I find it very difficult to comprehend that nobody in management, not even the chief pilot, hears these objections.

What makes you think that senior management listens to the chief pilots? From my years at a U.S. legacy, there was plenty of input to the chief pilots, but the concerns of the pilot group seemed to be ignored by higher levels of flight operations management.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
catiii
Posts: 2391
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:54 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 38):
ALPA's SME's were either not allowed input, had their input ignored, or had modules they designed removed from the training curriculum.

Ok, so which is it then? They were never consulted, or they were consulted, but the company didn't support or agree with their input? Because here you said:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):
Managements continued refusal to work with the pilot group AT ALL has caused the necessary step of asking for an injunction.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 39):
I read past the headlines where the text indicates they want to halt the cockpit procedures integration

Cute. I read past headlines as well, and halting cockpit procedures integration halts SOC, which halts the final integration itself.

[Edited 2011-09-26 20:18:50]
 
30west
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:18 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
It does not seem as if there was much discussions with the pilots,

Now does anyone actually believe that? Of course the union is going to say they were never consulted, otherwise where would their case be? Does anyone actually think that a bunch of people just showed up at United one day and said "hey, let's just change everything and not consult the UA MEC?" Of course that's not the case.

Once again someone commenting that doesn't know.

My best friend is a SME for ALPA on one of the A/C. There are 4 phases ALPA wasn't contacted for phase 1 at all period,

Phase 2 under duress they agreed to bring in SMEs 6 days prior to it being finished , story boards done, CBT finished, the only change ALPA got was to allow instructors to go to bases for training. It was a waste we thought the instructor would teach class but no they simply run the computer for you to advance to next page and then ask if there are any questions(CBT says a section is changed not what the actual numerous changes in that section are)

The duress that brought in ALPA was when it came out about the outsourced tech support falsifying training records ( showing pilots completed or passed training when computer froze up]. POI said UAL didnt tell him about the problems but he did shut down the overseas support after that.

So please try to learn facts before giving an opinion. Unless you don't really care about the facts.
 
FlyHossD
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 42):
and halting cockpit procedures integration halts SOC, which halts the final integration itself.

What advantage does halting the "final integration" gain for the UA pilots? As I recall UA/CO has already missed the originally stated dates and it hasn't changed much of anything.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
mm320cap
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 37):
Aren't engine fires memory items though?

No, they are not..

[Edited 2011-09-26 21:04:42]

[Edited 2011-09-26 21:10:55]
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1868
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:07 am

I'm pretty surprised at the knee jerk reactions by some of what appear to be non-pilots in this thread. Too many assumptions and not enough open minds.

We had a good example of what AA did with some change overs to their procedures at Reply 33. Compare that to what was described in the UA/CO situation currently underway.

I'd appreciate if someone from DL or NW could chime in on how they managed their pilot procedure integration.

Unless you are someone who is actually undergoing this "training" and have not seen the changes in detail, how can you comment? What is mind boggling is why the roster of changes took so long to get to the pilots and why they wouldn't accept either ALPA's offer or bring in consultants to assist with this training.

It's understandable that someone's procedures would have to change on the 767/777 given both airlines fly these planes. It sounds like someone underestimated the complexity of the rework of procedures.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.

Other avenues have been tried, and they didn't work.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 33):
Is a public law suit the proper way to slow down the process and possibly get it changed to something that can be verified to actually work? Who knows.

It's certainly not the best way. But if it's the only way, then you've got to do what you've got to do.

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
But they are getting computer based training.

Which is probably insufficient for the changes being made.

Quoting catiii (Reply 34):
The question is this: does a United pilot need to sit in a simulator to learn how to call for the "landing checklist" instead of the "descent checklist," or to know that at the gate the F/O configures the overhead panel instead of the Captain, among other things? Probably not.

Actually, you'd be surprised. If I'm going to be expected to transition to all new flows and checklist usage, then yes, I want some time with at least a cockpit mock-up so I can get used to the sequences and where my hands go when, and preferably one LOFT in the sim.

The alternative is for me to be actually doing the procedures for the first time with passengers onboard. Not that that's unsafe, but you can bet I'll slow down to make sure I get everything right, and on-time performance is going to be compromised.

And as far as windshear on autopilot, I'd want to do it a couple of times in the sim before I got in an airplane to do it.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
Yes but my question is this: is that even legal? Would the FAA or anyone else allow it?

The FAA will allow whatever they can be pressured to allow.

Quoting catiii (Reply 37):
Aren't engine fires memory items though?

From what I know of most airlines, no. The airlines have finally wised up and realized that there are very few things that really and truly necessitate the response time of memory items, and an engine fire isn't one of them.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 46):
I'm pretty surprised at the knee jerk reactions by some of what appear to be non-pilots in this thread. Too many assumptions and not enough open minds.

Your whole post was spot on. Nicely done. Funny how the four main people spouting all the anti-labor bile in this thread are all lawyers. You would think that those in that profession would be more inclined to listen first and then make judgements. Oh well.....

Quoting catiii (Reply 42):


Ok, so which is it then? They were never consulted, or they were consulted, but the company didn't support or agree with their input? Because here you said:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):
Managements continued refusal to work with the pilot group AT ALL has caused the necessary step of asking for an injunction.

It is exactly what I have been saying. Any input from the Association was either ignored, refused, or deleted. By almost any imagination, that can be construed as not working AT ALL with someone. Do you get it now?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1256
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:22 am

Here's an interesting story from a Houston reporter:

http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/20...inds-for-unitedcontinental-merger/

IMHO, it's clear that all is not well with the merger.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1868
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting tozairport (Reply 48):
Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 46):
I'm pretty surprised at the knee jerk reactions by some of what appear to be non-pilots in this thread. Too many assumptions and not enough open minds.

Your whole post was spot on. Nicely done. Funny how the four main people spouting all the anti-labor bile in this thread are all lawyers. You would think that those in that profession would be more inclined to listen first and then make judgements. Oh well.....

The ironic thing is I too am a lawyer  

Perhaps its my Dad's lifetime of flying and telling me so many things about procedures, checklists etc that gave me an appreciation of proper training. I have absolutely no doubt that the UA pilots are up to the task but giving them a shot at a simulator run at some of the bigger changes isn't exactly asking for much. This deal is done and there will be a SOC but rushing to paint a plane is one thing; rushing to retrain a ton of pilots in a very short period of time while simultaneously correcting errors in the new manual seems a tad silly.

Again from my living the life through my Dad's eyes, pilots have routine 95% of the time. When it comes to the other 5%, it would be a good idea for your pilots to not only know the new procedures but know where to refer to the proper checklist. Sure the UA pilots could certainly navigate through the issue (even an emergency) but it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity and stress.
 
apodino
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration

Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:36 am

I am also going to defend ALPA on this one. I am not a pilot, but I am a dispatcher and I have been in many jumpseats in my years in the industry. One thing I have noticed is that even on the same type of plane, no two airlines do their procedures the same. Because airplanes are flown with a cockpit of two pilots and they work as a team, it is absolutely vital that both are on the same page. For years UA has been big on CRM (They refer to it as CLR at UA) especially after Albert Haynes pulled his DC10 Miracle in Sioux City, and what UA seems to be doing may be a step away from that.

At my company, before the pilots even get into the simulator they spend time in a mock up practicing flows and checklists. The idea is that you ingrain these things into memory so that they become second nature. When you make major changes to procedures, which is what UA appears to be doing here, what is ingrained into memory is still there, so trying to learn procedures from a home study, rather than practicing it in a mockup or a simulator, is going to lead to problems. Sully wrote in his book about how US actually took out the tabs in their QRH as a cost savings measure, and that he was lucky that he was flying with Scott Skiles that day, because he had just completed the training so he was used to the QRH, where someone who had been flying for a while, may not have been able to reference the QRH that quickly. I believe US put the tabs back in after that incident, but that is an indication of how little things can make a big difference when it comes to safety.

I am also disturbed by the industry trend toward IBT. While this is intended as a cost savings measure, because of its nature and busy pilot schedules, pilots can often just take the IBT, and only take the test by researching the right answers. This isn't learning the material at all. These things should be covered with a more comprehensive classroom based training. As a dispatcher, often times I am given new software with only a one page handout on how to use it, and then expected to use it. This makes me very uncomfortable, because I don't like having to actually learn software while trying to maintain operational control. Likewise, if Pilots are being told to change the way they do things, they should actually get hands on practice before trying to put it into practice. This would be like WN going from the HUD to an Autoland for a CATIII approach, but instead of doing it in the sim, giving them a handout on how to operate the Autoland and be expected to use it.

Bottom line, UA pilots have a right to be upset. I applaud what the pilots are doing, and for anyone to think this is some ALPA labor action makes me very upset.

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