KarlB737
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Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:56 pm

The city of Long Beach is hoping that they can lure Boeing to build the 737-MAX next generation airplanes at the former B717 plant in Long Beach, CA. The C-17 is the only aircraft in production there at this time. Apparently a significant amount of modifications will be needed in order for the plant that will construct the new 737. Below are two recent writeups on this matter.

Personally I hope that Long Beach plant can acquire the assembly work for the sake of additional jobs to that area and to create the much sought after 737.


Courtesy: Press-Telegram

A Hopeful Move For Boeing

"Ramping up will require an expanded and refurbished assembly plant, either in Renton, Wash., where the 737 is assembled now, or in another location, such as the million-square-foot 717 facility. The company is assessing which location would make the most business sense."

http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_1896...telegram.com-www.presstelegram.com

_________________________________________________________________________________

Courtesy: Press-Telegram

Council Gets Behind Boeing Plant Effort

http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_1893...telegram.com-www.presstelegram.com
 
kaitak744
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:58 pm

Please please please make it work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:09 pm

Ok, so Renton, Charleston and Long Beach...can Boeing really afford to sustain THREE commercial factories?
 
kaitak744
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):

Ok, so Renton, Charleston and Long Beach...can Boeing really afford to sustain THREE commercial factories?

They currently have 3 (Everett). This would be there 4th. And Long Beach is already used as a Boeing FAB (C-17).
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:13 pm

Why would it make sense to use Long Beach instead of the exisiting 737 facility? From what I have read the changes between the NG and MAX aren't supposed to be (that's a big "if" nowdays), so why recreate infastructure, etc.?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 4):
Why would it make sense to use Long Beach instead of the exisiting 737 facility?

It wouldn't.

And let us not forget that Boeing did want to produce military and convertible variants of the 737 in Long Beach last decade, but the IAM in WA State killed that plan and a third 737 line was eventually added to Renton. I am sure they will not have changed their opinion on such a plan with the MAX.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:31 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 4):
Why would it make sense to use Long Beach instead of the exisiting 737 facility?

It wouldn't.

And let us not forget that Boeing did want to produce military and convertible variants of the 737 in Long Beach last decade, but the IAM in WA State killed that plan and a third 737 line was eventually added to Renton. I am sure they will not have changed their opinion on such a plan with the MAX.

I actually believe it would make sense. Boeing has stated that they are trying to work out how to increase the production rate in a space constrained Renton plant. Currently it has IIRC 3 assembly lines, one of which is used primarily for military variants. There isn't much physical room to increase their production rate beyond the already planned 40 a month. I believe at one point they were talking about increasing their rate to 61 or 62 a month, which I believe would require them to consider creating a new assembly line, possibly in another location.

One other thing - Boeing clearly would like to explore manufacturing airplanes outside of Washington, very evident with the SC 787 line. If Boeing can show a case of being space restricted, it would seem like a slam dunk to get another line moved out of state, with minimal union interference - and as an added bonus lower CapEx to get the line up and running since they already have a facility that just needs to be retrofitted for the 737.

[Edited 2011-09-27 08:34:25]

[Edited 2011-09-27 08:35:02]
 
KarlB737
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 6):
actually believe it would make sense. Boeing has stated that they are trying to work out how to increase the production rate in a space constrained Renton plant.

I agree as well. If you have potential customers lined up that want the aircraft you need to figure a way to get going. Do you want to risk losing those customers to another manufacture. In light of the expressed interest in the 737-MAX and the need to fulfull at the planned production rates why not mod Long Beach and plan the details for the new aircraft at the same time. Maybe at the end of the day both the plant and the design will match up on a time line that will allow for the beginning of production.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:54 pm

Never happen. The Boeing board would have to spend billions on extra security for themselves if the stockholders ever thought they were going to open an assembly line in California. That state makes Washington look like the corporate promised land.
Every time I have to respond to a spill or disaster there I have to ignore a hundred conflicting, vague, impossible regulations to get the job done. For instance, there's no possible way to legally have a portable, intrinsically safe generator in California because of conflicting rules from safety and environmental agencies. Our own people from California are hardly ever used in other areas because of the insane work and wage rules they come with.
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[Edited 2011-09-27 09:00:43]
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 6):
There isn't much physical room to increase their production rate beyond the already planned 40 a month.

Each 737 line is designed for 22 planes per month and the P-8 line was designed to handle commercial builds, as well. So Renton can handle up to 66 planes per month and military production is below 10 per month. So even at 60 737MAX's per month, Renton should be able to handle it.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
So even at 60 737MAX's per month, Renton should be able to handle it.

Boeing has shown with the SC line that they are getting a bit leery about having all of their eggs in one basket.

I would be willing to bet real money that if there is another 737 line, it won't be in Washington.
What the...?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 7):
If you have potential customers lined up that want the aircraft you need to figure a way to get going. Do you want to risk losing those customers to another manufacture. In light of the expressed interest in the 737-MAX and the need to fulfull at the planned production rates why not mod Long Beach and plan the details for the new aircraft at the same time.

Because Long Beach is a terrible place do manufacturing. If Boeing can't accommodate the production volume at Renton, a a greenfield site in a right-to-work state or a low-cost country would win hands-down.

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 6):
If Boeing can show a case of being space restricted, it would seem like a slam dunk to get another line moved out of state, with minimal union interference - and as an added bonus lower CapEx to get the line up and running since they already have a facility that just needs to be retrofitted for the 737.

The "just retrofitting" you describe is more expensive than the facility itself. Not mention, just about any community in the world will provide some/all of the funding necessary for a building as an incentive to gain a high-tech manufacturer.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 11):
Because Long Beach is a terrible place do manufacturing.

Then why is the C-17 being built there. Did Douglas and then eventually McDonnell-Douglas do so poorly there?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):

Then why is the C-17 being built there. Did Douglas and then eventually McDonnell-Douglas do so poorly there?

Well, McD no longer exists and the C-17 was created there by McD and it would have cost way too much to move the plant.
What the...?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):
Then why is the C-17 being built there. Did Douglas and then eventually McDonnell-Douglas do so poorly there?

The production line was already up and running when Boeing and McDonnell Douglas merged. But any new production doesn't have that advantage.

As another poster mentioned, I can't see Boeing bringing up factory capacity that is not in a right-to-work state. California is pretty much a nightmare for business.
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 6):

I actually believe it would make sense. Boeing has stated that they are trying to work out how to increase the production rate in a space constrained Renton plant. Currently it has IIRC 3 assembly lines, one of which is used primarily for military variants. There isn't much physical room to increase their production rate beyond the already planned 40 a month. I believe at one point they were talking about increasing their rate to 61 or 62 a month, which I believe would require them to consider creating a new assembly line, possibly in another location.

There was plenty of space in Renton 5 years ago before Boeing sold off all the land that was offices and production space for the 757. It's now shopping malls, but Boeing would have a lot of trouble justifying a move based on space since it was there up until they sold it a few years ago. The current production footprint for the 737 is far smaller than it was as they have made improvements to the process.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):

Each 737 line is designed for 22 planes per month and the P-8 line was designed to handle commercial builds, as well. So Renton can handle up to 66 planes per month and military production is below 10 per month. So even at 60 737MAX's per month, Renton should be able to handle it.

I don't know if you have ever seen the P8A production line, but there is no way that it can handle 22 planes per month. While the main production lines (with the current mods to boost production on the second line) have 8+ production day positions each, the P8A line only has 3. There is not the physical space in that building for a production line at the rate of the other lines.
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 12):

California didn't have the insane amount of work rules and environmental BS when McD was building planes. Specially when they decided to start building planes there and probably didn't feel the impacts at the end much. Business is becoming increasingly more difficult in CA and we have brought it about ourselves.

My belief is IF Boeing adds any more lines outside WA, it will be again in a state throwing tax intensives at it, as well as and area where wages are lower. It's business!
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kaitak744
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:29 pm

The politicians in California could bend rules for Boeing to get this Long Beach production. They need this! This state has a ridiculous unemployment rate, and needs this factory here. I really hope California politicians see this.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 15):
There was plenty of space in Renton 5 years ago before Boeing sold off all the land that was offices and production space for the 757.

I've always wondered if that decision would come back to haunt them. Not saying it has or will, but to me it was silly to sell off all the land. Most jurisdictions tax unimproved land at a low rate. All Boeing had to do was tear down the buildings and plant grass or grow wild. The taxes they'd pay would be absolutely insignificant to a company like Boeing.

Of course, we can all speculate that by getting rid of the land, they'd make it impossible to build a new airplane there, so they'd have no problem moving to a non-union greenfield site. And of course the recent court papers show what we all knew already, that the CHS FAL for the 787 mainly exists so it can put leverage onto its unions in the future.

But now we have the situation of needing more room, but not enough to build an all new airplane. As above, Boeing's decision to sell off the land at Renton may come back to haunt them.
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as739x
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 17):

But they can't seem to get squat past the NIMBY's and environmentalist. I would LOVE to see it, but will believe it when I see it.
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mhkansan
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:26 pm

Why is Wichita not being talked about in this thread. 737 fuselages are currently built by Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita and then shipped by rail to Renton. It makes a lot of sense to put MAX's production facilities in Wichita not only because of existing familiarity with Spirit and a large, well trained 737 workforce, but a lot of general aviation workers who are out of a job. Wichita has one of the nation's lowest cost of living and people here want to work in aviation.

Wichita is far more deserving than Long Beach for any kind of MAX assembly facility.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:16 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 20):
Why is Wichita not being talked about in this thread

I had wondered that myself.
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:58 pm

If they are seriously looking at another plant, the Spirit plant in Wichita does makes a lot of sense considering it's longstanding role in the 737 program. But I don't see Boeing doing that unless they bought the facility back from Spirit.

Long Beach does have some logical reasoning for putting the line there as well considering they've got an empty production facility that hasn't been used for a/c assembly in over 5 years. Isn't production on the C-17 slowing down, as the last of the USAF order is scheduled to be delivered in 2013, and there's only a handful of foreign orders on the docket? There's a ready supply of workers right there if C-17 production is winding down and there aren't any orders on the horizon. While California may seem like an odd choice considering the stringent environmental laws and other laws that would seem to hamper reopening the LGB plant, the State may be willing to make some concessions if this line were to come to LGB as it would definitely boost their coffers.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 17):
The politicians in California could bend rules for Boeing to get this Long Beach production. They need this! This state has a ridiculous unemployment rate, and needs this factory here. I really hope California politicians see this.

California is run by the NIMBY's. Regardless of the economic situation, jobs don't mean as much as catering to every wacky special interest group...the wackier the better.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 20):

Wichita is far more deserving than Long Beach for any kind of MAX assembly facility.

This is my number two guess but they would probably expand to build more of the parts they supply. The SC plant is surrounded by forest...not much of a hindrance for expansion and though I believe Boeing has essentially instituted a policy of decentralizing production, they don't want it scattered everywhere.
What the...?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Personally I hope that Long Beach plant can acquire the assembly work for the sake of additional jobs to that area and to create the much sought after 737.

Any reason you want to create jobs there rather than some other place?

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 4):
Why would it make sense to use Long Beach instead of the exisiting 737 facility? From what I have read the changes between the NG and MAX aren't supposed to be (that's a big "if" nowdays), so why recreate infastructure, etc.?

Man, no idea. Massive tax breaks and subsidies?

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 8):
Never happen. The Boeing board would have to spend billions on extra security for themselves if the stockholders ever thought they were going to open an assembly line in California. That state makes Washington look like the corporate promised land.

Good point.
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
California is run by the NIMBY's.

OK Joe... I'll bite! NIMBY?
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mhkansan
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 25):
OK Joe... I'll bite! NIMBY?

"Not In My Back Yard" or an acronym for people that are generally for something as long as they don't have to deal with any of the local consequences of it.

Wichita is not run by NIMBYs.

Also, I was under the impression that the Charleston, SC plant was only for the 787. Did Boeing go into CHS stating they planned to build a Renton-like facility there?
 
asteriskceo
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:53 pm

Hahaha. Yeah, it'll never happen. I say that with regret. But even if Boeing discovered some incentive to do business in California, homeowners near the airport would never let this happen. Never ever. Not in a million years.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 26):
Also, I was under the impression that the Charleston, SC plant was only for the 787. Did Boeing go into CHS stating they planned to build a Renton-like facility there?

I'm willing to bet that Charleston told Boeing, before the first shovel of dirt was moved on the 787 plant, that they are more than welcome to build whatever they like in SC.

You come, and we will build it.
What the...?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:30 pm

It does seem strange to me that Boeing would go to the expense and trouble of building SC, then turn around and re-configure LGB for the new 737. They have plenty of non-California real estate ready, willing and able to build this new a/c, as well as any future ones, and I expect CA would be a real big LAST on the list for consideration.

I can certainly see those in California, and specifically Long Beach, drooling at this possibility but (and I am a narive Southern Californian and I love the state) CA needs to get their act together before they can even hope to attract any of this kind of business back. Very sad and unfortunate, but very true.

bb
 
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modernArt
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 11):
a a greenfield site in a right-to-work state or a low-cost country would win hands-down.

I agree with this assessment. Kelly USA in San Antonio, Texas - already a significant Boeing facility.
 
FltMech747
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:54 pm

Agree with nomadd22..

It will never happen, this is the long beach paper stirring the pot without any kind of facts. Boeing did this once before in building 84 with all sorts of work to the line only to yank it out. I'm sure they learned from that and won't even consider LB.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:10 am

Manufracturing in CA....you would have to be completely off your Rocker! This State does everything it can to drive Business away. Second highest unemployment rate in the Country and Sacramento doesn't even mention it.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 27):
Hahaha. Yeah, it'll never happen. I say that with regret. But even if Boeing discovered some incentive to do business in California, homeowners near the airport would never let this happen. Never ever. Not in a million years.

I'm a homeowner near the airport, and I'd jump for joy at having Boeing building commercial airplanes here again. (Of course, the fact that I'm on a.net probably means I'm not like my neighbors . . .)
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting pgtravel (Reply 33):

It must get kinda lonely down there...
What the...?
 
KFlyer
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:05 am

Well, why not in China ? Airbus has already got a production plant there. Or in Brazil perhaps ? As of now, I believe Boeing will be interested in a place where they can build them at the lowest cost. But for anything like that to happen, MAX should get more orders and production be ramped up to 60+.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 35):
Well, why not in China ? Airbus has already got a production plant there. Or in Brazil perhaps ? As of now, I believe Boeing will be interested in a place where they can build them at the lowest cost. But for anything like that to happen, MAX should get more orders and production be ramped up to 60+.

Actually, Boeing has said that they want reliable production more than the lowest cost. They don't want 100% of their production tied up in labor disputes should one of their locations strike.

Moving to SC has cost them money but they see it as money well spent if they, and their customers, don't have to worry about a complete shutdown.
What the...?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:00 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Personally I hope that Long Beach plant can acquire the assembly work for the sake of additional jobs to that area and to create the much sought after 737.

Every reason not to put the plant in WA applies double to CA...that would be a hell of a business case to sell.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 35):
Well, why not in China ?

US export control laws.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 35):
Airbus has already got a production plant there.

Airbus doesn't have to work to US export control laws.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 35):
As of now, I believe Boeing will be interested in a place where they can build them at the lowest cost.

Probably, but first you need to be able to build them at all. With the current export control situation in the US, the chances of getting permission to build outside the US at all are slim to none.

Tom.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:30 am

/Boeing is actively moving jobs out of California. Before they would let engineers work from California on Seattle projects. Now it is move to where the work is (at the worker's expense). There is some Boeing/California tiff going on that I do not claim to know the full details. What I see is friend after friend at Boeing being told their job is moving.

Business wise, the best scenario for Boeing is Charlotte.   
That would be interesting...

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):

The city of Long Beach is hoping that they can lure Boeing to build the 737-MAX next generation airplanes at the former B717 plant in Long Beach, CA.

Long Beach can try. Maybe they can pull a political rabit out of the hat... I rather doubt it. But I can hope. The facilities at Long Beach are impressive.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
but the IAM in WA State killed that plan and a third 737 line was eventually added to Renton. I am sure they will not have changed their opinion on such a plan with the MAX.

There is the real killer. Long Beach is UAW. The IAM alone would keep 737 MAX production out of California.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 8):
The Boeing board would have to spend billions on extra security for themselves if the stockholders ever thought they were going to open an assembly line in California. That state makes Washington look like the corporate promised land.

  

Quoting UAL-Fan (Reply 32):
Manufracturing in CA....you would have to be completely off your Rocker! This State does everything it can to drive Business away. Second highest unemployment rate in the Country and Sacramento doesn't even mention it.

Sacramento is actively discouraging manufacturing. Small manufacturing business is fleeting too. Our Vendors flee and the new zip code doesn't start with a 9.  

Lightsaber
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:56 am

The 4-81/4-82 buildings have room for 4 737 moving lines. the P-8 is in another building. The only thing going on out there is posturing both for the union which could strike next year and the state which has in the past thrown up massive un needed aid packages to retain production. I think the only constraint on a 60 a month rate is getting them airborne before the field runs out of space.

It's just a gambit..and we've discussed it before under another title.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:17 am

Time to put a different spin on this thread...

737 fuselages are manufactured by Spirit Aero Systems in Wichita. They are shipped by rail for final assembly in RNT.

The rail routes are carefully surveyed, as the fuselages are near or at the limits, sizewise, of what can be moved by rail (what railroaders call the Loading Gauge).

Moving production to LGB would also mean finding a different rail route for the fuselages. Of the top of my head, this would probably put the the Union Pacific's Tehachapi Loop out of contention. Is there an existing rail spur at LGB to bring the fuselages into the plant?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 23):
California is run by the NIMBY's. Regardless of the economic situation, jobs don't mean as much as catering to every wacky special interest group...the wackier the better.

It's a real shame, too, I remember my uncle proudly driving me around the McDD plant in Long Beach when I was 7, showing my row after row of DC-9's and DC-10's in final assembly or awaiting delivery   Now, you can't even sneeze in California without dealing with the environmental regulations over where your snot will land...
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mhkansan
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:55 am

I think its reasonably safe to assume that the 737 MAX will have similar dimensions to the 737NG.

I hope Spirit gets the contract for them, also.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:09 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
The city of Long Beach is hoping that they can lure Boeing to build the 737-MAX next generation airplanes at the former B717 plant in Long Beach, CA. The C-17 is the only aircraft in production there at this time.

Not a chance. Boeing is looking to move ops out of California, not the other way around. When it comes to reducing costs, California might be the worst place to go.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
I would be willing to bet real money that if there is another 737 line, it won't be in Washington.

My money would be on Wichita, with South Carolina the runner up.
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
Ok, so Renton, Charleston and Long Beach...can Boeing really afford to sustain THREE commercial factories?

A backlog of a couple thousand current models have to be produced or converted, so how does one go from the proposed 40+ per month to at least 20 per month for the MAX out of the gate, they cannot cease production of one model and ramp up the other to the necessary levels over night, a new MAX line is one the way, whether temporary or permanent to produce frames while the originals lines are shut down and converted.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
Boeing has shown with the SC line that they are getting a bit leery about having all of their eggs in one basket.

May well be, but there are national infrastructure issue that have to be looked at and resolved. DreamLifters will play a significant role in the ramp up of the 787, air transportation is more expensive than rail and sea. At 10 per month it may work, the 737 has greater volume, so logistics need to be simple.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):
Actually, Boeing has said that they want reliable production more than the lowest cost.

I thought the whole mantra of out-sourcing even to Spirit was to reduce the power / influence of the unions - even at the expense of profitability - and to make products cheaper, I missed the the change to reliable production.
I assume that change was a result of the 787 fiasco, the purchase of suppliers were forced by the delays not because management had a change in strategy.
 
greg3322
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:23 pm

The LGB area is served by the Union Pacific, but the line that used to go directly to the airport terminates just north of it now. There are C-17 parts (wings?) that arrive by rail and Boeing trucks them over to the plant.

Since I am in the railroad business in that area, I would say there isn't much of an issue with bringing fuselages from Kansas. We currently ship 15' wide, 120' long wind towers from the Port of Long Beach to Kansas via the UP Sunset route . Tehachapi isn't an issue, as that isn't the route they would take.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
Moving production to LGB would also mean finding a different rail route for the fuselages. Of the top of my head, this would probably put the the Union Pacific's Tehachapi Loop out of contention. Is there an existing rail spur at LGB to bring the fuselages into the plant?
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:45 pm

California has become one of the worst places to do business for aerospace companies. The tax situation is bad and has been getting worse and the state has gone from being a giant in aircraft manufacturing during the 20th century to a much lesser part of U.S. aerospace manufacturing. Aerospace companies have been leaving California to avoid the anti-business regulation and taxation Sacramento so loves. The favorable business environment enjoyed by the Douglas of the 1940's through the 1980's no longer exists. Also North American, Lockheed, and others now mostly manufacture elsewhere. It's one of the sad stories of government run amock. I've read many articles and talked to many aviation people in California and this decline has been ongoing for quite awhile. The state government in Sacramento cannot seem to understand you cannot create jobs in a state by making it more expensive and difficult to do business.
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
Boeing is actively moving jobs out of California.

Why am I not surprised by this?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 38):
Long Beach can try. Maybe they can pull a political rabit out of the hat...

More like a pony out of a pile of manure.

Quoting kanban (Reply 39):
I think the only constraint on a 60 a month rate is getting them airborne before the field runs out of space.

Maybe they can borrow some of that mall parking lot space?  
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
Moving production to LGB would also mean finding a different rail route for the fuselages.

Same would be true for CHS.

Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
I thought the whole mantra of out-sourcing even to Spirit was to reduce the power / influence of the unions - even at the expense of profitability - and to make products cheaper,

That's not how I see it. Spirit is a union shop still, so if they shut down via strike, Boeing would soon follow, as would the A350. I don't think Boeing was contemplating a future without Spirit, at least not for quite a long time.

When all this was being cooked up (kind of like chrystal meth in a meth lab!) Boeing thought it could become essentially an airplane design bureau and let others do the heavy capital spending one needs to do to do heavy manufacturing. I think the move was to restructure the company along the lines that would please Wall Street as opposed to a move to break the unions. Note that all of this happened in the same time frame as when the same geniuses decided to move the headquarters to Chicago, which made just as much sense. Note too all of this predated the massive outsourcing of the 787.

Bottom line: Boeing in those days was being run by crackheads.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
I don't think Boeing was contemplating a future without Spirit, at least not for quite a long time.

I meant the creation of Spirit, I believe that prior it was just another Boeing shop, I assume Spirit will continue as they are also involved on the 787.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Bottom line: Boeing in those days was being run by crackheads.

  
No argument there.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:32 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 45):
It's one of the sad stories of government run amock.

California likes to see itself as a leader in various environmental and social areas. Unfortunately that's just not very conducive to business. Also it is true that regulation itself has run amok. There are far too many agencies with far too many overlapping and contradicting regulations. Unfortunately a lot of that has come about because business has a strong profit motiviation to bypass the intent of many laws, so laws must be written to be effective even when businesses hire just as many people to find loopholes as they do to assure compliance. Both sides have dirty hands here, yet our political climate today is about polarization instead of cooperation.

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):
I meant the creation of Spirit, I believe that prior it was just another Boeing shop, I assume Spirit will continue as they are also involved on the 787.

Yes, but both before and after it was and is a union shop, so spinning it off is not gaining Boeing any freedom from strikes, so I'm not sure if I'm getting the point you are trying to make.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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par13del
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RE: Long Beach Hoping To Capture 737-MAX Production

Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:11 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
Yes, but both before and after it was and is a union shop, so spinning it off is not gaining Boeing any freedom from strikes, so I'm not sure if I'm getting the point you are trying to make.

My thoughts in my initial post was about Boeing management / production changes in general, not specifically related to strikes. As you mention, they are a union shop and even if they do not strike in support of Boeing workers, the products they produce have no where to go so...the only benefit Boeing got with the spin off was lower payroll and staffing numbers and some flexibility in oversight of their products production, at least I think so.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Bottom line: Boeing in those days was being run by crackheads.

I cannot get over you actually posting this, definately made my day.

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