LY777
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Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:02 pm

Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years
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bgm
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:06 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?

I really hope not! KLM has a beautiful livery. Makes a welcome change from the boring Euro white. Plus (as an a.netter I am obliged to say this) KLM's aircraft are way too clean to wear the AF livery.   
 
Ferminios
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:11 pm

I really doubt that it will ever happen - the KLM brand is just way too strong not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide to throw it in the trash. It would be a terrible decision from a marketing perspective I think.

Furthermore, would you really want to fly with Air France - Royal Dutch Airlines to Amsterdam?   
 
hamad
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:15 pm

lets hope not! KLM really represents the Netherlands and the dutch culture!
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B747forever
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:20 pm

I highly doubt it.

For people all over the world, KLM is still KLM and not Air France.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
rutankrd
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:22 pm

KLM is an independent carrier WITHIN the Air France Group with its own Company Registration, and is incorporated in the Netherlands.

It holds various (No EU) bilateral route licences and operations across the North Atlantic are pooled with Delta.

It buys and sells services (maintenance ground handling etc...) within the Air France group and does co-ordinate and code share with Air France where legal framework allows.

It is NOT Air France the airline !
 
vv701
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:26 pm

There is no possibility of KLM disappearing before all the bilateral air service agreements signed by the Dutch government have been replaced by agreements signed by the EU,

It is not coincidence that the BD, LX, OS and SN brands continue to operate within the LH group and BA and IB brands operate within IAG.

But I would suspect that even if we had universal EU air service agreements then KL will survive. If it were to disappear Dutch passengers flying out of AMS would just as likely choose any alternative to AF where currently there is almost certainly a national bias towards KL. And then there is always brand loyalty which is what aircraft liveries and many other airline activities and features try to build. You only have to read posts in airliners.net to see the emotions that can be aroused when someones favourite airline is being discussed.
 
babybus
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:52 pm

I wonder how close we are now to getting an Air Europe set-up?

All these different brands flying under a few lead airlines cannot be that cost effective.

SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Obviously they can't use the Air Europe name as that was used before.  
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
netjetsintl
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:16 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?

I hope not. This isn't like Delta and Northwest where Delta's brand was recognized all over the world and Northwest's brand wasn't...... KLM and Air France fly all over the world, they both have world-renowned brands

Plus KLM's colors are so classy, and AF's is plain and boring
 
wolbo
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:31 pm

Paris will burn if that happens.   
 
rutankrd
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):

I wonder how close we are now to getting an Air Europe set-up?

All these different brands flying under a few lead airlines cannot be that cost effective.

SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Decades away !!!

Various legal frameworks labour and employment legislations, international and bilateral treaties, nationalistic and brand loyalties in the way.

However the three Alliances (through marketing) will make further progress in the population mind set to project that they more than than they are in reality.

They are in fact frequent flyer clubs and are propagated on spoke- Hub-Hub-spoke concept.
These alliances provide little benefit to the majority of Y class tickets holders that normal interlining IATA fares don't however that not the message they want YOU to here.
 
netjetsintl
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:52 pm

Quoting wolbo (Reply 9):
Paris will burn if that happens.

come on now, don't be shy, tell us how you really feel......

seriously, those KLM colors look really sharp, specially on the 777


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rwsea
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:05 pm

Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money, it would be completely idiotic to tinker with the branding at this point.   
 
vv701
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
They are in fact frequent flyer clubs and are propagated on spoke- Hub-Hub-spoke concept.
These alliances provide little benefit to the majority of Y class tickets holders that normal interlining IATA fares don't however that not the message they want YOU to here.

These merged operations are a lot more than frequent flier clubs.

They are single economic entities with a huge buying power. Their significant benefit to Y Class passengers is using their economy of scale to offer competitive fares that, if they were multiple simple entities they simply could not afford to offer and survive. This is why the likes of the Australian (Labour) government is willing to to authorise the JBA (Joint Business Agreement) between AA and QF as discussed here:

QF & AA Joint Business Agreement Approved By Accc (by tayser Sep 28 2011 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5267031&searchid=5267031&s=qf+aa+joint#ID5267031

This agreement is significantly closer to a merged business than is a simple joint frequent fliers club. If approved by the USA this JBA will bring Australian Y Class passengers crossing the Pacific many economic advantages. This is why the Aussie government have approved it.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:20 pm

I agree those few Joint business deals BA/QF QF/AA KL/DL have the effects, however these are legal agreements OVER AND ABOVE the general marketing that is the Alliance concept.

And as you point out have required Government level approvals.


All three alliances carry partners that bring virtually nothing the the table

Examples

Oneworld- Malev and S7

*A - Adria and Croatia !, Egyptair

Skyteam

Tarom , Vietnam
 
DTWLAX
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:22 pm

You mean by dirty white planes??... I hope not
 
rutankrd
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:26 pm

VV701

Personal opinion only would like to see those mini cartels made illegal actually.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 15):
You mean by dirty white planes??... I hope not

  

KL has a very strong brand world-wide and is known for high quality service. Relinquishing that status would be a major mistake.

KrisYYZ
 
blueflyer
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:22 pm

If it were ever to happen, I doubt the KLM livery would be replaced by Air France's if only because, as already pointed out, it is counter-intuitive to think of Air France as the Netherlands' "home-grown" carrier. What would happen is they'd come up with some sort of joint branding that would hopefully work for both, along the lines of Air Europe (although not that exactly since Air Europa already exists).

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):
KLM is an independent carrier WITHIN the Air France Group

Agree with everything you wrote except this: KLM isn't independent, it is 100% owned by Air France-KLM, a French holding company that also happens to own 100% of Air France. KLM doesn't have independent existence, it receives its instructions from the holding company and implements them (as Air France does on its side).

Quoting rwsea (Reply 12):
Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money

Considering that it's not true (Air France has a lower profit though), and considering that revenue and expenses are moved around as much as legally possible with the intent to maximize the share of total profit on KLM's books (because of corporate taxes being much lower in the Netherlands over France), that isn't the reason they're not collapsing the two carriers into one. KLM having a higher profit might be nothing more than smart accounting, or not. There isn't enough information publicly available to judge.
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f4f3a
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:46 pm

I doubt this very much . I think it's a lot like the car brands. Ie vw Audi skoda seat all under one umbrella vag but each product offers different things and attracts different parts of the market.

I think klm air France will do the same thing . Klm will offer a different product / route network to air France . There is no point in merging them into one brand. The same thing applies with iag and lh group.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Air France would be very stupid to do this, and the Netherlands would never let that happen anyway.
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LHPII
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

You are making this up. This a complete nonsense and they never stated this!
 
LY777
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting LHPII (Reply 21):
You are making this up. This a complete nonsense and they never stated this!

They said that, sorry.
But I hope KLM a/c will keep their own livery and nice blue interior
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
There is no possibility of KLM disappearing before all the bilateral air service agreements signed by the Dutch government have been replaced by agreements signed by the EU,

This thread is about KL adopting the AF livery. There's nothing to prevent that while KL remains a separate entity. However, like others, that would be a big mistake and will never happen, just like LX will never wear LH livery.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:29 pm

Let's say no. The KL-product has its own identity, AF-product too. They both have their loyal customers.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Yes but the three Scandinavian countries (thus not Finland) share a lot (demography, politics, economics etc.). The Netherlands and France are close relatives, nothing more than that.

Quoting netjetsintl (Reply 8):
Plus KLM's colors are so classy, and AF's is plain and boring

Agreed!

Quoting hamad (Reply 3):
KLM really represents the Netherlands and the dutch culture!

Close relatives to Americans. Except: no patriotism (except Queen's day and the Dutch national Football Team). I think besides Queen's Day, the Olympics and the Dutch Football team, nobody shares any nationality wheareas the French are punished for their patriotism (because they protect it). If KL represents the Dutch culture, it has had the AF livery long before.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 12):
Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money, it would be completely idiotic to tinker with the branding at this point.

KLM has a completely different approach than AF. KL is much more focused upon the economy traveller. AF much more on the premium passengers. Hence it has a good reputation for its First and Business Class. For Economy Class KL has a better reputation. Also Schiphol has much more advantages than CDG.

Because of the economic downturn AF struggles to sell enought premium seats, KL keeps on selling their Economy Class tickets. However this doesn't mean that AF, which is 3 times bigger than KL, needs the liquidty of KL to keep their head above the water. When the economy will improve, AF will certainly make money again.
 
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:34 pm

Quoting netjetsintl (Reply 8):
This isn't like Delta and Northwest where Delta's brand was recognized all over the world and Northwest's brand wasn't......

Um, really? It is not a stretch at all to say NW was better known by several orders of magnitude in Asia.
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

I do not recall this statement. As far as I know AF and KLM will continue to exist as separate brands within the AF-KLM group. And I hope we will keep the special colors KLM has. Together with KE they are have of the most recognisable color schemes around.  .
 
royaldutchgirl
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:49 pm

Haha! That would be something!

If the airline had a more neutral name, it would be a different story, but the name Air France says it all. It represents France, not The Netherlands, so I think it would be totally unacceptable!

I don't think it will ever happen, but if it will then I will surely avoid flying Air France.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:52 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

I believe they said that KLM would keep its own identity for AT LEAST a few years. They probably said it like this because they couldn't be 100% sure. I think AF pretty much had to phrase it like this as I don't think KLM would have agreed to merge with AF if they had to loose their identity.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 20):
Air France would be very stupid to do this

That's true, and as the people running the Air France Group aren't, it won't happen.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 20):
and the Netherlands would never let that happen anyway.

Except they can't. In the original agreement the KL identity was guaranteed till somewhere around the end of last decade, but not further than that.

Quoting LHPII (Reply 21):

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

You are making this up. This a complete nonsense and they never stated this!

No, it's true actually. But few people knew, it was kept rather quiet. But why spend money on a different identity while the current one works perfectly?

Times change however and in the long term there may develop a situation where re-branding is necessary. But then it would be a complete new identity for both AF and KL, I predict.
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FlyingHollander
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:37 pm

Who has the power in the AF/KL group to make such a decision? Because I don't see any KL people vote for a complete merge of identity.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
LY777
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 28):
I believe they said that KLM would keep its own identity for AT LEAST a few years.

Yes, sorry, they said AT LEAST. But they said this remained a possibility
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airproxx
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

Very unlikely, and it's fine that way.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
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breiz
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:02 pm

The French being republicans by mistake, there is a serious chance that Air France - KLM is renamed Royal Air Franderland  
 
AwysBSB
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
I wonder how close we are now to getting an Air Europe set-up?
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
What would happen is they'd come up with some sort of joint branding that would hopefully work for both, along the lines of Air Europe (although not that exactly since Air Europa already exists).
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 29):
Times change however and in the long term there may develop a situation where re-branding is necessary. But then it would be a complete new identity for both AF and KL, I predict.

One of the first French airline names, Air Union, is another option for substituting not only KLM, but the names Air France, Air Europa and Alitalia in the future.
Perhaps, after that change, some of those names would be maintained the same way Piedmont Airlines was maintained by US Airways, but that would happen only in domestic flights, not in their mainline network.
 
na
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?

I do not think so. Killing first class brands is a bad idea. I am sure many passengers would turn their back should AF make such a stupid move. What reason should a dutch passenger have to stay with the airline if its not flying the dutch flag and wellknown colours anymore (not to mention KLMs livery is so much nicer than AFs).
There are enough examples that this kind of ignorant measures dont work, Condor/Thomas Cook being just one.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:30 am

That KLM blue livery surely is a classic! It's been around just about as long as AA's has. It really is beautiful on most aircraft I have seen it applied to.
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SEA
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:47 am

The KLM livery is classic, though I do think it could really use an update. Standard Helvetica just doesn't look as clean as it used to.
 
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ERJ135
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:44 am

To answer the original question is simple.

Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?
No! Air France recently made a minor update on their livery, this would have been the ideal time to do something that may have led to a common livery or at least one that could be easily adapted between the two carriers. Clearly the did not.
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years.
Yes this was stated.
When merger plans were formalised in September 2003 a clause was entered stating the the KLM brand and independent identity would remain untouched until December 2009. The exact date was revised at the time of the merger on May 5th 2004, however that deadline has clearly now passed and obviously nothing has happened to the KLM image as yet, This can of course change as all promises have been kept and as such Air France-KLM can do what they want or what they need to do.
I honestly have no idea of what they will do, but having two brands under the one umbrella works just fine just like Qantas and Jetstar, different fleets different colours different markets, one owner, or publicly listed company. Common sense would probably suggest that aircraft be similarly liveried so as to allow some interchange across the fleets, however in this case both Air France and KLM are big enough not to need this. Additionally interiors and service levels seem to be quite different between these two not to mention the simple fact that some aircraft types are unique to each carrier.
Recent aircraft orders however seem to be placed to cover both carriers, and a simple example is like saying to Boeing or Airbus, we'll have 50 in blue and 50 in white thanks.
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joelyboy911
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:42 am

I had wondered if they might start to have some brand unification, such as using matching typefaces on their liveries to show that they are together, yet individual. Doesn't seem to be the case, and I can well understand why. I like AF's new livery, and I don't see that KLM needs to do anything to theirs. It is classic yet contemporary. In fact I would venture it could be called timeless, because it's simple but stands out in a good way. The colour is beautiful.
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Glareskin
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting breiz (Reply 33):
The French being republicans by mistake, there is a serious chance that Air France - KLM is renamed Royal Air Franderland

Well since land is not the specific part of Netherlands I would prefer Netherfrance instead. But both sound silly.

Seriously though, why do airlines merge? Oh, yes I do call it a merger as KLM was looking for mergers for many years before (remember how close they were with AZ and Swissair?)

The merger brings:
- ecomomy of scale (like better purchasing power, less overhead costs)
- improved network,
- reduction of double facilities (like check-in counters, lounges, services).
I think this has all being accomplished.
What would be the advantage of having one brand? Using the same letterheads? Having to give a single instruction to the paint shop? Hardly the advantages that will make the difference in a company with over a 100000 employees.
As a conclusion: I don't think the name will dissapear for a long time.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Superfly
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:04 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 1):
I really hope not! KLM has a beautiful livery. Makes a welcome change from the boring Euro white.

I agree.
Like most here, I really like the blue livery of KLM. The Euro-white is so boring and unfortunately so many airlines around the world has go to this cheap generic look.
The KLM blue livery looks best on the MD-11 and 747.



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ZRH
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:30 am

To answer the question of the thread: for sure not. Why should they? This would be the most stupid move they could do to give up a well known brand. It is same with LH and SWISS, they would never ever give up the brand and the company SWISS. It would only have disadvantages and no economical reason.
 
mauriceb
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:32 am

Maybe they should call Air France--> KLM instead, and see if it will make AF profitable to..   



Serieously, the fact that AF has a french flag on its tail fin makes it almost impossible to incorporate the AF livery on KL planes.. it would be a killer for what Dutch pax is concerned, but also for travelers world wide, as a lot of people have some kind of affinity with KL.

I think that in some years we will see a new livery, but it would be some kind of ''Europe'' thing..
 
joelyboy911
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:45 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 43):
Serieously, the fact that AF has a french flag on its tail fin makes it almost impossible to incorporate the AF livery on KL planes.. it would be a killer for what Dutch pax is concerned, but also for travelers world wide, as a lot of people have some kind of affinity with KL.

Isn't the French flag quite similar to that of the Netherlands... Rotate 90 degrees to the left...   

I agree with what you're saying in principle however, because of the highly national-associated identities of the respective carriers.
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airproxx
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 43):
Maybe they should call Air France--> KLM instead, and see if it will make AF profitable to..

  
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
SASMD82
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:17 am

Let's change the question:

Should Finnair or Iberia incorporate the BA-livery? Somehow it doesn't feel right......
 
joelyboy911
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:38 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 46):
Should Finnair or Iberia incorporate the BA-livery? Somehow it doesn't feel right......

Iberia could incorporate similar stylings to BA, with a Spanish flag on the tail and their crown logo on the forward fuselage. Their livery does seem kinda dated.   

As an aside, does anyone know if BA and IB will have IAG logos on their aircraft as AF and KL have "Air France-KLM" on the nose/forward fuselage?
Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:21 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 24):
Because of the economic downturn AF struggles to sell enought premium seats, KL keeps on selling their Economy Class tickets.

Oh, really? There's something a little off about this statement. KL may not have first class, but it does have business class, and it does a very good job of selling it all over the world. That definitely counts as premium revenue. First Class at AF is small and while not insignificant, it pales in comparison to business class volume, which is the same type of business class KL sells. Neither company, by the way, has lie-flat seats yet, which IMHO needs to change ASAP since the announcement by LH that they would be installing lie-flats.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:33 am

Most of the assumptions I've read on this thread are pretty short-sighted.

I can see the day when AF/KL/DL et al are branded as SKYTEAM, with small "operated by" stickers next to the forward door as you see on regional partners today. Same goes for Star and Oneworld.
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