User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:26 pm

This route is a seasonal route that has been operated over the years by COEX ERJs and CO Connection Q400s, apparently this year it's being operated by Porter Air.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/por...-mont-tremblant-flights-2011-10-03
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3930
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:33 pm

I didn't know this was ever operated! I wonder how much traffic they will generate. Ride is about 7 hours.

Now if I could get a non stop to Lake Placid! haha
 
User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:40 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
I didn't know this was ever operated

This route has been operated for years (seven years?) during Ski Season by CO, this season it appears Porter got the contract. On the days this flight operates Porter will be up to 12 daily flights from EWR, really impressive.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:44 pm

Will this flight have to go through customs? IIRC all the rest are precleared in Canada?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Will this flight have to go through customs? IIRC all the rest are precleared in Canada

Not all airports in Canada have preclearance, only the big airports (YYZ, YUL, YOW, YVR, Calgary etc..).
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:55 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Will this flight have to go through customs? IIRC all the rest are precleared in Canada?

Probably. It's idiotic that I have to go through US Customs on Canadian soil. I guess Canadians had to bow down to the great US of A. Hey don't get me wrong, I like our friendly neighbor to the South, but if say Pakistan was to put Pakistani customs at JFK, the Americans wouldn't like it very much.

I've been to Tremblant quite a few times. It's a nice little resort and the mountain is half decent. A lot of Americans travel there for vacation so I can see Porter doing well. An off topic question, does Porter fly to Tremblant from Toronto?
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11368
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
It's idiotic that I have to go through US Customs on Canadian soil.

Is it idiotic that you have access to LGA and DCA, which would not exist but for preclearance?

Is it idiotic that when you hop on a 1:00 p.m. flight to ORD, you don't have to endure an hour plus wait for immigration and customs with all of the European arrivals at Terminal 5?

What, exactly, is idiotic?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SPQR
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:03 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):

I see nothing wrong with the pre-clearance program, it opens up a ton of airports in the US that would otherwise not be available due to no customs there. In addition, if flying to a major centre, I'd rather pre-clear in YOW or YUL than to land in MIA have have to hit customs there 10 minutes after 6 flights have arrived from South America
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:07 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Is it idiotic that when you hop on a 1:00 p.m. flight to ORD, you don't have to endure an hour plus wait for immigration and customs with all of the European arrivals at Terminal 5?

What, exactly, is idiotic?

Not to deviate from the topic, but the resources and organization of American customs is NOT my problem and frankly, as a Canadian I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil, regardless of how insignificant they may be. So yes, I would rather wait in line 2 hours in ORD than have US customs in Toronto.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11368
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
Not to deviate from the topic, but the resources and organization of American customs is NOT my problem

No, it's not your problem. But why shouldn't governments cooperate to make things easier for passengers? What's the harm?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
STT757
Topic Author
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
Hey don't get me wrong, I like our friendly neighbor to the South, but if say Pakistan was to put Pakistani customs at JFK, the Americans wouldn't like it very much.

We host the United Nations, they have their own laws and immunities. We have to host the likes of the leader of Iran in New York on American soil.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
codc10
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
Not to deviate from the topic, but the resources and organization of American customs is NOT my problem and frankly, as a Canadian I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil, regardless of how insignificant they may be. So yes, I would rather wait in line 2 hours in ORD than have US customs in Toronto.

Without turning this into a political thread, just look for a second at the practical realities of the pre-clearance system. There are far more American airports with service into Canada than there are Canadian airports with service into the USA. Plenty of those American airports with limited transborder flights do not have a full-time FIS available or are very restricted in capacity.

This is an effective allocation of assets and IMO a system that is a great benefit for travelers on both sides of the 49th parallel.
 
BDABOY
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:19 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:43 pm

Having US customs pre-clearance here in BDA is a godsend. The longest you ever have to stand in line is 5 minutes, and the officials are always really friendly. I've had monstrous waits for clearance in MIA and JFK coming from latin america and europe only to be faced with worn out rude (not that I can necessarily blame them) staff.
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
Probably. It's idiotic that I have to go through US Customs on Canadian soil. I guess Canadians had to bow down to the great US of A.

You do realize the biggest single beneficiary of pre-clearance has been Air Canada, right?
 
airbazar
Posts: 6801
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Is it idiotic that when you hop on a 1:00 p.m. flight to ORD, you don't have to endure an hour plus wait for immigration and customs with all of the European arrivals at Terminal 5?

Well in that regard, on my last trip to Canada I spent 1.5 hours waiting in line to pre-clear immigration at YYC.
If ORD has problems handling the volume they should build more adequate immigration facilities rather than shift the load onto Canadian airports.

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 13):
You do realize the biggest single beneficiary of pre-clearance has been Air Canada, right?

That's debatable. I'd say the US taxpayer is a significant beneficiary by not having to foot the bill for more and improved immigration facilities at our airports. Like with everything else, it's an economic decision not a political one and I suspect both the US and Canada win on this one.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11368
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
If ORD has problems handling the volume they should build more adequate immigration facilities rather than shift the load onto Canadian airports.

An hour wait might be acceptable after a 10 hour flight from WAW but not after a 1.5 hour flight from YYZ.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:40 pm

Pre-clearance is a pain because you have to get to the airport early but it is good because you are out of the airport earlier. I don't mind it.

Coming back to Porter, it looks like great news. CO's coverage of Tremblant was not sufficient unless one would go there for a whole week. And unfortunately Tremblant is way too small to spend a whole week of our scarce vacations there. On the other hand, if I can leave on the Friday, ski in the afternoon, and maybe come back via Toronto on a Sunday evening or Monday morning flight, I may be interested!!

Previously when going to Tremblant I had to fly to YUL and drive two hours, no fun in winter (drive from NYC: 9-10 hours depending on traffic/weather).
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3625
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
as a Canadian I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil, regardless of how insignificant they may be.

All they do basically is decide whether or not passengers can get on a plane, they have no power of arrest. If you do something stupid inside the pre-clearance area, you'll deal with Canadian police. Not that much different from security guards in front of some embassies filtering people and deciding who can and cannot go in.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
I'd say the US taxpayer is a significant beneficiary by not having to foot the bill for more and improved immigration facilities at our airports.

If they'd build a FIS station at every airport AC flies in that doesn't have one now, you'd likely be correct. The way things are, however, I think it more likely AC would be told to go land somewhere else.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 16):
Coming back to Porter, it looks like great news. CO's coverage of Tremblant was not sufficient unless one would go there for a whole week. And unfortunately Tremblant is way too small to spend a whole week of our scarce vacations there. On the other hand, if I can leave on the Friday, ski in the afternoon, and maybe come back via Toronto on a Sunday evening or Monday morning flight, I may be interested!!

I can see how that will be a bit better. See I don't find Tremblant to be that bad, but you're right, it wouldn't be at the top of my vacation lists. Maybe back in the day when we were in high-school and the entire class went to Quebec on ski trips. Those were loads of fun. I think a "weekend getaway" may be more appropriate for these flights. I wonder what the fares would be.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 17):
If they'd build a FIS station at every airport AC flies in that doesn't have one now, you'd likely be correct. The way things are, however, I think it more likely AC would be told to go land somewhere else.

Hmm... I think every airport that Air Canada or Jazz flies to has US Customs. I have flown to airports in Montana, etc that have no scheduled service to Canada (Great Falls, Montana for example). All I had to do is file a trans-border report and call US Customs. They had me taxi to the customs ramp in Great Falls, showed my papers, my plane was checked and off I went in less that 10 minutes.

Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs. If Great Falls, Montana has them, I doubt the rest don't.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
codc10
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
I'd say the US taxpayer is a significant beneficiary by not having to foot the bill for more and improved immigration facilities at our airports.

Is it established that the US taxpayer does not pay for these facilities in any measure? I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the capital costs of constructing these facilities isn't shared to some degree. I already know that US CBP bears substantially all of the operating expense.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11368
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 18):
Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs.

That's the wrong question - all do. The right question is which airports do not have customs facilities suitable for the volume of transborder passengers they see and that's a much longer list. LGA and DCA are at the top.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:55 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 18):

Hmm... I think every airport that Air Canada or Jazz flies to has US Customs. I have flown to airports in Montana, etc that have no scheduled service to Canada (Great Falls, Montana for example). All I had to do is file a trans-border report and call US Customs. They had me taxi to the customs ramp in Great Falls, showed my papers, my plane was checked and off I went in less that 10 minutes.

Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs. If Great Falls, Montana has them, I doubt the rest don't.

Its not that they have NO customs (I believe they still must fly to an airport with customs/immigration in case they need to recheck the plane), its just that some airports they fly to (i.e. LGA, DCA) have small and limited customs that cannot handle commercial planes on a regular, scheduled basis. There is a big difference between clearing a small Cessna and a 146 seat A320 that AC flies into LGA.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 17):
Quoting vio (Reply 8):
as a Canadian I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil, regardless of how insignificant they may be.

All they do basically is decide whether or not passengers can get on a plane, they have no power of arrest. If you do something stupid inside the pre-clearance area, you'll deal with Canadian police.

  


Quoting vio (Reply 8):
I would rather wait in line 2 hours in ORD than have US customs in Toronto.

I don't know how frequently you travel to the U.S., but I suspect you're a minority of 1. The actual processing is also much faster because the majority of pax are Canadians and not therefore subject to US-VISIT biometric processing.

Quoting SPQR (Reply 7):
I see nothing wrong with the pre-clearance program, it opens up a ton of airports in the US that would otherwise not be available due to no customs there.

  

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 13):
You do realize the biggest single beneficiary of pre-clearance has been Air Canada, right?

  

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
Ride is about 7 hours.

Only if you go via YYT. Otherwise, it's 1hr 10min.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 18):
Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs. If Great Falls, Montana has them, I doubt the rest don't.

LGA, DCA do not accept international flights, except pre-cleared.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
Quoting vio (Reply 18):
Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs.

That's the wrong question - all do. The right question is which airports do not have customs facilities suitable for the volume of transborder passengers they see and that's a much longer list.

  
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1373
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:55 pm

IIRC The bilateral agreement allowes Canada to put CBSA at American airports. They, so far, have choosen not too.



I knew some folks who flew this with COEX and enjoyed it. Interesting to see portar take it.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:25 pm

Good news for Porter! ...and for Tremblant.

For pre-clerance.. I've yet to hear any Canadian object to it.. it brings us and the Americans great benefit. a quicker overall experience for us, the Americans (at YUL for instance) have their own security control over the US wing. I for one would whole hartedly take that over standing for hours in a customs line in any major US city... so I don't know what the guy who started this element of the thread was experienecing or feeling but I suspect he is among a minority of Canadians who think that way. It's certainly not an opinion I'm hearing from anyone in my area of Canada.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6801
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
An hour wait might be acceptable after a 10 hour flight from WAW but not after a 1.5 hour flight from YYZ.

My point is I waited 1.5 hours on the YYC side to pre-clear immigration. I don't see the difference between waiting before or after the flight. My experience is that clearing Immigration in Canada can be just as slow as doing it in the US.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 17):
If they'd build a FIS station at every airport AC flies in that doesn't have one now, you'd likely be correct. The way things are, however, I think it more likely AC would be told to go land somewhere else.

And those towns/airports would lose business in the process.
Quoting CODC10 (Reply 19):
Is it established that the US taxpayer does not pay for these facilities in any measure? I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the capital costs of constructing these facilities isn't shared to some degree. I already know that US CBP bears substantially all of the operating expense.

I'm not sure how you can make that conclusion. It would be very unusual for any airport construction project to be funded without any contribution of public funds, whether Federal, State, or local. And it's not just the CBP facilities. Imagine if all flights from Canada would have to arrive at an International gate? Airports would have to build that many more International gates and larger international terminals because I suspect that flights from Canada do make up a significant portion of all international flights to the US.
 
ytz
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:38 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 24):
IIRC The bilateral agreement allowes Canada to put CBSA at American airports. They, so far, have choosen not too.

I thought so too and I have never understood why Canada never took up that offer at major US airports. Pre-clearance is far more efficient.

First off, there's the benefit of not being in the same pool as the hundreds of other US visitors who require biometrics. Next, it actually reduces overall trip time. Yes, you have to check-in earlier at the airport. However, the time after you check-in is almost always a waste. Might as well use that time clearing customs, so you don't have to do it on the other end. It's nice to be able to get off a flight and walk out of the airport.

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
So yes, I would rather wait in line 2 hours in ORD than have US customs in Toronto.

Please speak for yourself. The majority of Canadians don't want to be spending 2 hours in US Customs after a 1 hr flight, especially when the one hour milling about the shopping concourse could have been used more productively clearing customs. You may have time to waste. The rest of us do not.

Quoting vio (Reply 18):
Tell me one airport in the US to which Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz or Porter flies to that does NOT have US Customs. If Great Falls, Montana has them, I doubt the rest don't.

Having Customs and being listed as an airport of entry are two different matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_of_entry#Americas

That's the list. Incidentally, Great Falls, Montana may not have been on the list. US CBP and CBSA will make exceptions from time to time. However, there's no law requiring them to be accomodating. If they insisted that all Canadian flights terminate at an airport of entry, you would have ended up with an extra stopover in your example.

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
Probably. It's idiotic that I have to go through US Customs on Canadian soil. I guess Canadians had to bow down to the great US of A

What ridiculous nonsense. It's a service that's offered that saves time for passengers. And our government is entitled by the bilat to place CBSA officers under similar constraints in the USA. US CBP in Canada do not have police powers. This is why they don't carry firearms, and always have a few local police officers nearby who will enforce Canadian laws...which is exactly what the Pre-Clearance Act is: a Canadian law. The only function that the US CBP officers have is determining eligibility to entire the United States. And subsequently boarding of the USA bound aircraft (though this is actually under Canadian jurisdiction technically speaking). And this is actually a good thing. Far better to know at Pearson that you can't enter the USA than reaching there and being denied entry. This happens a lot with Mexican travellers to Canada by the way who are deemed ineligible on arrival. And there have been several complaints by Mexican authorities that Canada should be doing more to advise on eligibility prior to arrival in Canada.

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
Hey don't get me wrong, I like our friendly neighbor to the South, but if say Pakistan was to put Pakistani customs at JFK, the Americans wouldn't like it very much.

I doubt the Americans would complain, if there was pre-clearance and the US had that many passengers heading to Pakistan. Why would they? It would benefit American travellers heading to Pakistan. It's quite racist on your part to assume that the Americans are all xenophobes.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:48 pm

WOW. Good luck to them!
 
steex
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 27):
I thought so too and I have never understood why Canada never took up that offer at major US airports. Pre-clearance is far more efficient.

My guess is that Canada hasn't placed any pre-clearance facilities for two reasons:

1) There are far more travelers going Major Canadian Airport -> Any American Airport than going Major American Airport -> Any Canadian Airport, so a lot less is gained. There are loads and loads of flights from YYZ to a vast array of American cities (by my count, AC alone serves 40 American airports from YYZ), but even a major airport like ORD only has flights to a dozen or so Canadian airports (most at extremely low frequency).

2) More connections are made on the American side than the Canadian side, making it more convenient to more people if they allow a seamless connection at ORD rather than a seamless connection at YYZ. I realize it is more inconvenient for passengers to have to interrupt a trip like YOW-YYZ-LAX with customs at YYZ in both directions, but I think there are a greater number of passengers doing flights like OMA-ORD-YYZ that allow (theoretically) seamless connections at ORD in both directions.
 
saloman
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:31 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
My point is I waited 1.5 hours on the YYC side to pre-clear immigration. I don't see the difference between waiting before or after the flight. My experience is that clearing Immigration in Canada can be just as slow as doing it in the US.

Your point is based on anecdotal evidence. I've been in YYC pre-clearance lines that are so long they go back into the ticketing area, and still it's no more than a half hour wait. Your experience is, IMO, not representative of the general wait.

As a former YQR resident, I can tell you that it is not fun landing in places like MSP after even one European flight has landed.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1888
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:24 pm

This is great, does anybody know what the exact schedule is yet? It's great seeing Porter continuing to grow, they have an excellent product and, IMO, a solid operation with the Q400's.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 27):
Quoting vio (Reply 5):
Hey don't get me wrong, I like our friendly neighbor to the South, but if say Pakistan was to put Pakistani customs at JFK, the Americans wouldn't like it very much.

I doubt the Americans would complain, if there was pre-clearance and the US had that many passengers heading to Pakistan. Why would they? It would benefit American travellers heading to Pakistan. It's quite racist on your part to assume that the Americans are all xenophobes.

I quite agree, that's definitely an off-color analogy. There would be no issue with Pakistani pre-clearance in the US, but Pakistan does not have the traffic volume, proximity, and excellent relations that the US and Canada have. It's a program offered for the convenience of travelers in both Canada and the US and, as others have pointed out, Canada is more than free to open up pre-clearance on our side....there was no 'bowing down' to almighty US demands. If you would rather wait 2 hours in customs after an hours flight behind a bank of European arrivals, then I suspect that you don't travel trans-border that often, and if you do, I can't say that I understand what your beef is when the overwhelming consensus is that pax on both sides enjoy the convenience.
 
N62NA
Posts: 3994
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
So yes, I would rather wait in line 2 hours in ORD than have US customs in Toronto.

And when the friendly US Customs and Border Protection officer denies your entry because he didn't like what color shirt you were wearing, you would rather be treated like a criminal and forced to wait in a holding cell in the USA until a flight back to your country had an available seat for you?
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 13):
You do realize the biggest single beneficiary of pre-clearance has been Air Canada, right?

Actually .. pre-clearnace has always favoured US carriers. It is one of the main reasons why with the advent of the CL-65, AC always went for "point-to-point" traffic instead of routing through US hubs.

For example. AA could offer "direct" one airplane YYZ-STL service (through ORD), where every Canadian carrier could only offer a connection. But ... the reverse advantage was not there, as there were no US airports offering pre-clearance to Canada. So when selling a seat from LAX to YQB (for example) AA and AC were on the same competitive level, as both required a connection on the first landing in Canada for Customs clearance.

For decades, the US would not allow Canada Customs in the US for pre-clearance to even out the competitive advantage.

This required that AC offer point to point non-stop service to the States to remain competitive. At first using the CL-65, and as routes matured, larger aircraft were/are used. The longer range capability of the E190 helped open up routes that otherwise would never have flown.

It is ironic, looking back, that had the US allowed Canada Customs in the US for pre-clearance, AC may never had gained the edge on trans-border flying that remains today. And AC still flies the majority of traffic between the two countries.

So you are right, AC certainly was the biggest beneficiary, but only through innovative thinking, and that certainly was not the plan of the US.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
fly2yyz
Posts: 643
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:45 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
My point is I waited 1.5 hours on the YYC side to pre-clear immigration. I don't see the difference between waiting before or after the flight. My experience is that clearing Immigration in Canada can be just as slow as doing it in the US.

What about the fact that when you arrive in the US, you're basically a domestic arrival and just go down to baggage claim and that's it. Quick, Easy. Done.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6801
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting saloman (Reply 30):
Your point is based on anecdotal evidence. I've been in YYC pre-clearance lines that are so long they go back into the ticketing area, and still it's no more than a half hour wait. Your experience is, IMO, not representative of the general wait.

Clearing immigration at a US airport has never taken me longer than half hour either and I do it multiple times a year. Again, what's the difference, before or after the flight? My point is, in my experience there is none.
Having said that, I must have had really bad luck at YYC. 2 years ago it took me 1.5 hours. Last year it took me only 1 hour. Both time the line was so long that they wouldn't even let me in after checkin and made me wait on a side line along the back wall, behind the checkin counters. Completely ridiculous. I'll take immigration lines on the US side any day.
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
as a Canadian I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil

Not really enforcing US laws on anyone who isn't intending to arrive on US soil.

I get your point, I really do........... but how I wish we had pre-clearance here in the UK, just like in Dublin and Shannon. It would make travel across the pond so much less of a pain in the arse!
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
Clearing immigration at a US airport has never taken me longer than half hour either and I do it multiple times a year.

That's because you use the U.S. passport lines. 90% of the pax in the other lines have to be biometrically processed. Take a look at the non-U.S. lines next time. One advantage of pre-clearance in Canada is that Canadians (the majority of pax) are exempt from US-VISIT processing and don't have to line up with hundreds of others who are not exempt. It's never taken me more than 5 minutes to clear at YOW, even before I had a NEXUS card.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
Vio
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
I suspect that you don't travel trans-border that often, and if you do, I can't say that I understand what your beef is when the overwhelming consensus is that pax on both sides enjoy the convenience.

Well assumption is not correct. I used to travel to the US at leas once every two weeks for company meetings and such. I can't even remember how many times I've flown from Vancouver (YVR) to Portland, OR (PDX) on Horizon and Air Canada Jazz.

I would have to catch an early flight, say 6 or 7 am, but since I had to clear customs in Canada I had to be there at 5:00am or so. I couldn't even make use of the Skytrain to YVR since I had to leave so early. True, I got there around 8 - 9 am and I was in the Portland office by 9:30 but by then I would've been awake since 4 am and frankly it cut into my sleep and personal time. I would've much rather wait (on my company's time) in PDX and go thorough customs and now have to cut my sleep by 1 - 1.5 hours so I can make it early to the airport. That "time saving process"... bullsh*t...

On top of that, let's not talk about the inconvenience of flying YYC to BOS via YYZ and having to pick up my checked bags, bring them through customs and then proceed with checking them back in. So please everyone, spare me the "Time saving thing, because it's not that much of a difference"... Yeah, maybe if I travel at some odd time of the day, but when "rush hour" happens at YVR, YYC or YYZ, good luck passing through US customs in a heartbeat.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
RJLover
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:41 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
Not all airports in Canada have preclearance, only the big airports (YYZ, YUL, YOW, YVR, Calgary etc..).

YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, YYZ, YOW, YUL, + YHZ, to be specific.
Last Flight(s): YYJ-YVR-YYZ-YHZ Next Flight(s):
 
csavel
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
It's idiotic that I have to go through US Customs on Canadian soil. I guess Canadians had to bow down to the great US of A.

Well it isn't as if some cowboys in the US are forcing Canada to do it. A lot of valid criticisms can be thrown at US throwing their weight around - this isn't one of them. If Canada doesn't like the bilateral agreement, they can close down the pre-clearance. And as others have said, Canada DOES have the right to do same in the US.

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 13):
You do realize the biggest single beneficiary of pre-clearance has been Air Canada, right?

I actually read that in the 50s, it was American Airlines that lobbied Canada and the US to do it.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 22):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
Ride is about 7 hours.

Only if you go via YYT. Otherwise, it's 1hr 10min.

I think the poster was talking about the ride from NY metro area , although Montreal itself is about 7 hours IIRC.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 27):
I thought so too and I have never understood why Canada never took up that offer at major US airports. Pre-clearance is far more efficient.

I never understood why Canada and the US just don't harmonize their customs so crossing the border isn't even an issue - a sort of North American Schengen. Maybe even include Bermuda and the Cayman Islands in that.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 38):
now have to cut my sleep by 1 - 1.5 hours

It's never taken me 1-1.5 hours to go through pre-clearance in YVR. More like 15 minutes. I think you're conflating immigration clearance and security screening, which you'd be doing anyway without pre-clearance.

Quoting vio (Reply 38):
On top of that, let's not talk about the inconvenience of flying YYC to BOS via YYZ and having to pick up my checked bags, bring them through customs and then proceed with checking them back in.

Swings and roundabouts. When I'm transferring in ORD/LGA/IAD etc, my bags are checked through and I don't have to pick them up and check them back in at the U.S. POE.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
I don't want them enforcing US laws on Canadian soil, regardless of how insignificant they may be.

Better close every embassy in Canada, then.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 38):
On top of that, let's not talk about the inconvenience of flying YYC to BOS via YYZ and having to pick up my checked bags, bring them through customs and then proceed with checking them back in. So please everyone, spare me the "Time saving thing, because it's not that much of a difference"... Yeah, maybe if I travel at some odd time of the day, but when "rush hour" happens at YVR, YYC or YYZ, good luck passing through US customs in a heartbeat.

You need to apply a little critical thinking to this. Whether you go through US customs at the front end or the back end, it will have the same impact on duration of the trip. I agree that the connection flight is a hassle because of the need to pick up the bags -- and maybe there's an answer to that. I went through US customs in Houston a few months ago when in transit between Grand Cayman and Vancouver, but the bags went straight through. Maybe that's only because of the transit part -- but I wonder if some secure form of baggage control could be developed that let the bags go right through.

Quoting csavel (Reply 40):
I never understood why Canada and the US just don't harmonize their customs so crossing the border isn't even an issue - a sort of North American Schengen. Maybe even include Bermuda and the Cayman Islands in that.

There's still waaay too much paranoia around for that to ever happen. And the IRS might have some objections -- right now they're on the warpath trying to track down American expats in Canada who they maintain owe them some tax returns. A free ride over the border wouldn't go well with the IRS.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
aamd11
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 5):
An off topic question, does Porter fly to Tremblant from Toronto?

Not off-topic at all... indeed, the EWR-YTM service is part of the overall YTM program itself.

Porter will be flying more flights to YTM than ever before this winter - up to a peak of 13x weekly departures. Some days of the week, the flights will operate via YOW or YUL as in previous seasons. Depending on the day, outbound flights later in the week will operate YTZ-YOW/YUL-YTM for example with a direct YTM-YTZ flight home (Sunday for example) while before the weekend the flights operate YTZ-YTM direct and return via YOW or YUL (Thursday, Friday for example).

Back to my point about EWR-YTM... the EWR-YTM service itself will be served in a triangular way. On Thursdays, the a/c will operate YTZ-EWR, EWR-YTM and then YTM-YTZ. On the Sunday, the aircraft will operate one of the many YTZ-YTM legs before operating YTM-EWR and finally operating a scheduled EWR-YTZ flight.

YTM is a key feature of Porter's winter schedule, and has been ever since they began operating (just twice weekly) back in 2007/08.  
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18834
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting RJLover (Reply 39):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
Not all airports in Canada have preclearance, only the big airports (YYZ, YUL, YOW, YVR, Calgary etc..).

YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, YYZ, YOW, YUL, + YHZ, to be specific.

There are at least 50 daily transborder flights from Canadian airports that lack preclearance. YYJ, YLW, YXE, YQR, YXU, YTZ, YQB and YQM are the main ones that come to mind.
 
Bravo1Six
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:03 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:41 am

NEXUS.

Nuff said.
 
CO777DAL
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:01 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:36 am

Something I always wondered... Are the people who work US Customs and Immigration in Canada US Citizens? They work for our Federal govt but live in Canada, so I often wonder this? Are they Americans or Canadians?

And does this mean CO will not operate this route this winter?
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3625
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:17 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 43):
but I wonder if some secure form of baggage control could be developed that let the bags go right through.

It's coming to a Canadian airport with US pre-clearance near you soon. Actually, YUL and one more airport (I think YWG) have "it" already. Bags connecting to a transborder flights are sent to a dedicated area of luggage sort where they are photographed. US CBP officers can access the pictures while checking your documents and choose to call your luggage up for manual inspection on a dedicated belt if they want to. At airports where this is in place, 99% of passengers should be able to go through pre-clearance without getting anywhere near their checked luggage.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/airport/yul_ca_us.html
Notice how Air Canada's instructions ask that you have baggage tags, not baggage, ready (pictures are linked to passengers by baggage tags).
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Porter Launching EWR - Mont Tremblant

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:38 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 17):
All they do basically is decide whether or not passengers can get on a plane, they have no power of arrest. If you do something stupid inside the pre-clearance area, you'll deal with Canadian police. Not that much different from security guards in front of some embassies filtering people and deciding who can and cannot go in.

Right, plus anyone pre-cleared is completely free to exit the pre-cleared area at anytime back to public space. Also those within the pre-cleared area are not beyond Canadian law, or Canadian law enforcement. They are not yet under American law control. Canada could still stop anyone from getting on an airplane.
I come in peace