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Plainplane
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747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:46 pm

I came across this news story today about the auction of an old classic 747 being led by the US Department of Defense:
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/business/boeing-747-to-be-sold-for-scrap

When I noticed this line:

Quote:
Whoever buys the plane will have two weeks to work with a contractor in Roswell to tear it apart. The tear down has to be witnessed by personnel from the Department of Defense to make sure it can never fly again.

Is it normal to mandate something like this in a sale?
 
wilco737
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:55 pm

Quoting Plainplane (Thread starter):

That sucks... I would love to buy it and keep it. Selling it and then scrapping it? I guess someone wants to make money out of it.

R.I.P. old 747.

wilco737
  
 
AirbusA6
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:50 pm

Seems a bit silly to be so specific, what else is someone going to do with a 41 year 747 stripped of all its useful parts?
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n471wn
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 2):
Seems a bit silly to be so specific, what else is someone going to do with a 41 year 747 stripped of all its useful parts?

Exactly----typical government over-kill
 
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SEPilot
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:01 pm

Well, in another thread someone claimed to have flown in a 747 built in 2006, which I promptly labeled a counterfeit, as all 747's delivered after 2005 were freighters. Perhaps the government wants to keep parts away from whoever is counterfeiting 747's?
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Rdh3e
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 2):
Seems a bit silly to be so specific, what else is someone going to do with a 41 year 747 stripped of all its useful parts?

Use it as a restaurant etc. I don't see their motivation for the forced scrapping.
 
trigged
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:05 pm

DOD has gone to the practice of forced demil-ing almost all aircraft they sell. If this is owned by DOD, then it doesn't surprise me. This is why you will never see aircraft that are modern now flying the airshow circuit in 50 years because the DOD refuses to sell them. 50 years ago you could buy any surplus aircraft you wanted, now you can't hardly get anything.
 
nomadd22
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:03 pm

They don't want someone to buy it an abandon it when their plans fall through.
Anon
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:47 pm

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Polar%20Air%20Cargo-stored-b747.htm

It looks like N851FT.

If it is a 41 yr old B747-100, then clearly it will not being flying anywhere.

The article also says that parts have been stripped from it, suggesting that it is a hulk.

The interesting question, is why did the DOD acquire this aircraft in the first place.
 
spacecadet
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 8):
The interesting question, is why did the DOD acquire this aircraft in the first place.

The most obvious answer is training or testing. Whether equipment, planning, personnel, or whatever.
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silentbob
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:58 pm

If they are going to require that it be scrapped, they should just do it themselves.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 5):

Use it as a restaurant etc. I don't see their motivation for the forced scrapping.

Or build a house with it. I saw a TV show about this house in Malibu made from a 747's wings:

http://www.studioea.com/projects/residential/wing_house/

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 8):

The interesting question, is why did the DOD acquire this aircraft in the first place.

The Air Force and Canadian military used it for force on force ground training.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...camp-in-new-mexico/article1836500/
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planespotting
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting trigged (Reply 6):
This is why you will never see aircraft that are modern now flying the airshow circuit in 50 years because the DOD refuses to sell them.

Well, the last few generations of military aircraft are quite a bit more complex than even F-86/Mig-15 era surplus.

Keeping and maintaining a WWII fighter aircraft flyable isn't too much different than maintaining a complex and turbocharged general aviation single from the '60s (I'm talking about it from a maintenance/technology standpoint - not expense) ... holding onto an F-100, F-4, A-7 or whatever other Vietnam-era or later aircraft would be quite the challenge for anyone except for someone with the deepest pockets.
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bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:27 pm

Many thanks Canoecarrier, I suspected something along those lines.

Clearly, it is likely that this training makes the aircraft no longer airworthy. Also the damage caused by this training could give hints about the nature of the training.

This could be why scrapping is mandatory. Clearly, if nothing can be salvaged then this will reduce it's value further.

it will be interesting to see who will buy it.
 
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falstaff
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 12):
holding onto an F-100, F-4, A-7 or whatever other Vietnam-era or later aircraft would be quite the challenge for anyone except for someone with the deepest pockets.

Aren't there a few privatly owned F-4s?

Quoting trigged (Reply 6):
This is why you will never see aircraft that are modern now flying the airshow circuit in 50 years because the DOD refuses to sell th

What about if you buy them from another country? Or do they not allow reimportation?
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planespotting
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
Aren't there a few privatly owned F-4s?

Probably, but a lot fewer than there used to be private P-51s, F-4Us, B-17s, etc.
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falstaff
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 13):
Clearly, if nothing can be salvaged then this will reduce it's value further.

it will be interesting to see who will buy it.


If you can get it cheaper than the value of the scrap metal and the labor cost to cut it up, you have a money maker. You could also sit on it and wait for the scrap prices to go up, but then again it could go down. Looks like you would have to cut it up on the spot and they may want it gone in a hurry.

I love scrap. I would buy it and cut it up if I could and got a deal on it.
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sf260
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 12):
holding onto an F-100, F-4, A-7 or whatever other Vietnam-era or later aircraft would be quite the challenge for anyone except for someone with the deepest pockets.
AH-1 Cobra and OV-10 Bronco are flying in civilian hands, which are both typical Vietnam era aircraft. The cost is no more than a Mustang/Spitefire-type of aircraft.
(Trojan, Skyraider, Skymaster, etc served in Vietnam too but are a decade or more older.)

Apart from that I think you are quite right, it becomes increasingly difficult to operate some newer ex mil aircraft. Sadly enough...

About that 747, the aluminum would probably be worth around $120-130k, but it takes quite a job to to recycle it and make it something usable...

[Edited 2011-10-05 14:05:36]

[Edited 2011-10-05 14:05:59]
 
flightsimer
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting sf260 (Reply 17):

We had two Grumman OV-1D Mohawks until the mid 2000's when we sold one of them because we didnt have enough pilots to fly both. We still fly the one we have now to airshows. Both flew Vietnam and the first Gulf War.

Ironically, we were in talks to recieve a second one again, but we wouldn't fly it.
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bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:35 pm

The requirement to tear down within 2 weeks would possibly limit your ability to "sit on it".

Besides how much of the estimated 160K pounds is not Aluminium.
 
777STL
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 13):
Clearly, it is likely that this training makes the aircraft no longer airworthy. Also the damage caused by this training could give hints about the nature of the training.

I'd venture to guess that's exactly why they don't want this aircraft to see the light of day. Especially when it comes to ingress and egress points.
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ordpark
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:04 pm

I'm missing something...why doesn't the DOD contract with someone to break it up?
 
tharanga
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 10):
If they are going to require that it be scrapped, they should just do it themselves.
Quoting ordpark (Reply 21):
I'm missing something...why doesn't the DOD contract with someone to break it up?

Read the article. The buyer can do whatever they want with the scrap metal - except for trying to fly it around as an airplane.
 
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Scooter01
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:30 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
I guess someone wants to make money out of it.

Or, -they could spend some money on it (forget about the current economical restraints....)
by repainting it, just like what they recently did to the old firetrainer at FBU, which was trucked up to GEN

at FBU:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andreas Mowinckel



at GEN before painting:
http://i55.tinypic.com/n71i8k.jpg

after painting:
http://i54.tinypic.com/24fh537.jpg

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bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:40 pm

Sorry, the DOD want it torn down.
 
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falstaff
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 19):
Besides how much of the estimated 160K pounds is not Aluminium.

I would be more concerned with what isn't some type of metal. If it is metal it can be scrapped. You should see the stuff I see at the scrap yard, every kind of metal has value. Plastic even has value. All those recycled plastic bottles people put in recycling bins are processed and the plastic resold.

I always amazed at the vast amount of things people give away to recycle when they could be making money on the deal. If I can make money I want in on the deal. I am not set up to make money on plastic and paper (maybe one day) but right now I don't "give away" anything metal. It goes in the back of my truck and once a week drive I by the scrap yard.
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DL_Mech
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:01 am

This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
planespotting
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting sf260 (Reply 17):
AH-1 Cobra and OV-10 Bronco are

These aircraft are both turboprop powered - I was referring to pure jets.
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soon7x7
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:28 am

By virtue of this airframe having flown for Polar...it would at the time have already been a flying patch quilt...much like Towers 747's were. Having cut up Polar 747 flight controls...pylons, and many other airframe components, the level of corrosion was unacceptable. For any official to even think this airframe "could" potentially fly again is ...typical...but most unrealistic. Scroggins Aviation would be the biggest benefactor in my opinion as they already have the means to chop her up for scrap. $$$... 
 
fanofjets
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:45 am

If the government had been using the airframe for terrorist training, the damage and modifications to the hulk could yield sensitive information. My guess is that the DOD is anxious to thoroughly remove any such traces - the only way to do so is to call in the scrap man and do so ASAP.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
runga08
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:41 am

I have a feeling this has Iran written all over it. Isn't Iran still trying to fly some 747-100's? and SP's that they have left and can't get replacement parts?
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:27 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 28):

Yeah, but they state that only the 2 companies on site are allowed for down sizing and mutilation of the aircraft. Buyer is not allowed to do it themselves.
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tcasalert
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:48 am

Why don't they just scrap it themselves, lazy gets?
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Bongodog1964
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:14 am

If you go through to the DOD disposal website, it appears that the "mutilation to ensure no future use" clause is fairly standard. Within 2 minutes I found 4 skips full of scrap aircraft parts which required destruction before removal, and even better a lot of worn out tank tracks which alos had to be destroyed in the presence of DOD officials prior to removal from the site.

Its probably all just over zealous officials. It does seem to be rather limiting and pointless to invite bids to remove a scrap aircraft and then state that you have to employ one of two scrapping companys to do the work. Might as well just write to the two companys and ask them for bids.
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:52 am

The fact that there are only 2 viewing days, (5 hours each) suggests that few viewers are expected, (unless it is groups of prospectives) which seems unlikely. I would not want other potential bidders peering over my shoulder.

Also given that only 2 dismantlers are allowed, (who will know the value of the aircraft) it seems that they have little reason not to take most of the profit.

There seems little point in the DOD conducting this auction, if they want to control every detail. All of the risk seems to pass to the purchaser, and not much reward.

Presumably, they have a new airframe for this role, (I noted a second Polar B747 on the link provided by the OP).
 
jfk777
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:53 am

Why would any one buy this junk ?
 
trigged
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
Quoting planespotting (Reply 12):
holding onto an F-100, F-4, A-7 or whatever other Vietnam-era or later aircraft would be quite the challenge for anyone except for someone with the deepest pockets.

Aren't there a few privatly owned F-4s?

Quoting trigged (Reply 6):
This is why you will never see aircraft that are modern now flying the airshow circuit in 50 years because the DOD refuses to sell th

What about if you buy them from another country? Or do they not allow reimportation?

It is possible to re-import them, but it is a red tape forest. I do know there are a few civilian F-4's and there is even a civilian F-18 out there. I think the F-18 is a compilation of parts though.
 
L-188
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 8):
The interesting question, is why did the DOD acquire this aircraft in the first place.

E-4 parts.

It's the reason why by the late 1980's there where so few 707's around. They where getting bought and parted out by AMARC for E-3 and KC-135E parts
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Devilfish
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:13 pm



Quoting silentbob (Reply 10):
If they are going to require that it be scrapped, they should just do it themselves.
Quoting ordpark (Reply 21):
I'm missing something...why doesn't the DOD contract with someone to break it up?
Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 32):
Why don't they just scrap it themselves, lazy gets?

Would be a lot more expensive doing it themselves.....plus they'd need someone to blame if something was missed.  crackup 

Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 8):
The interesting question, is why did the DOD acquire this aircraft in the first place.

E-4 parts.

So there may possibly be a few bits from it for this refresh?      

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_E-4B_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_E-4B_lg.jpg

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art..._4b-to-usaf-after-maintenance.html

Quote:
"The aircraft was delivered from Boeing's E-4B partner L-3 in Greenville, Texas, where it received new paint, following maintenance and some minor modifications performed at Boeing's Global Services & Support facility in Wichita.

'This was an extremely challenging PDM because of the over-and-above issues that we uncovered on this aging aircraft,' said Glenn Winkler, Boeing program manager for the E-4B. 'It is very important that we perform well because there are only four of these jets in the fleet, so getting it back into service as quickly as possible is very important to our customer'."


[Edited 2011-10-06 08:25:51]
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canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
Why would any one buy this junk ?

Aluminum is going for around $0.82/lb. there's supposedly 160,000 lbs of aluminum in this plane that works out to $131,200. Figure the guy that's breaking it up is getting paid $30/hour and it has to go away in 2 weeks, that's $2,400 for his time + benefits, so $131,200 minus the cost to haul it away, labor and equipment, then dispose of the rest of the non-recyclables in a landfill. Think I'm being conservative? triple my labor number. Still means there's money to be made.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:30 am

The current best bid is $170.

Clearly, not much interest.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:39 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 34):
There seems little point in the DOD conducting this auction, if they want to control every detail.

Do you seriously expect logic in DOD procedures? Clearly, they have rules for disposing of unwanted aircraft that do not differentiate between a 747 and F-117.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:31 pm

Price is now $5,150.

Two days to go.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 42):
Price is now $5,150.

Two days to go.

Haven't you ever bought anything on eBay   It will be interesting to see what this actually goes for.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:06 pm

Yes the price normally jumps at the end.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 44):
Yes the price normally jumps at the end.

Bumping in case anyone is interested in watching the final 10 min of bidding. It's up to $20.5K. Which of you a-netters are bidding on your own 747? Even if you have to destroy it?

http://www.govliquidation.com/auctio...S8457&cm_re=1-_-hotlots-_-row1col1
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:17 pm

The sale is now over.

The price is not clear, one part of the site said $12,700 and another $18,500 + 10% Buyer Premium.

The buyer now has 30 days to get it mutilated.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:18 pm

You sure? click on the link.
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bennett123
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:26 pm

Now $21K.

The closing time seems to keep shifting.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 747 For Sale, "If You Buy It, You Must Scrap It"

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 48):

The closing time seems to keep shifting.

Looks like $21K buys you a 747. It would be interesting to see what 160K lbs of aluminum nets profit off that. You have to use one of two on site companies to take the plane apart, so they have a bit of a monopoly there. There is a bulk scrap metal buyer in Roswell, but I don't know what they'd pay/lb of aluminum.

It seems like delivered aluminum is going for around .80-.85/lb. You have to figure that at least a little over half of that cost goes into labor/salvage so maybe the plane is worth around $64,000, then you have to send the rest of it to the landfill. Probably a little meat on the bone for someone who was willing to take a shot at it.
The beatings will continue until morale improves

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