tsugambler
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:01 am

Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:04 pm

Does anyone know the current status of the 717 with Southwest? Now that the acquisition of AirTran is a done deal, has there been any further word about their plans for the 717? If they are kept in service at least for a while, when can we expect to see them repainted?
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:08 pm

When the FL pilots come to terms with the WN pilots and the company, there might be some more firm plans.

Until then there they can't fly WN routes, so why repaint them? Also WN holds the nuclear option (ie park all the 717s ASAP) in reserve.
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:22 pm

I believe it was announced and discussed on this forum not long ago that the 717s would not be staying in the combined fleet.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
RamblinMan
Posts: 785
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:57 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 2):
I believe it was announced and discussed on this forum not long ago that the 717s would not be staying in the combined fleet.

I think there's been some supposition based on the terms of the labor deal WN has proposed that they'll be sold in 2015, but nothing firm.

They will be used for a while, as there are too many to be replaced in a short timeframe. I'd be very surprised not to see them repainted, even if the plan is to get rid of them in a few years. If nothing else, WN will paint them just to make their brand more visible at ATL.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting tsugambler (Thread starter):
Does anyone know the current status of the 717 with Southwest? Now that the acquisition of AirTran is a done deal, has there been any further word about their plans for the 717? If they are kept in service at least for a while, when can we expect to see them repainted?

Given recent comments from WN (not sure if it was the CEO or CFO), I think it safe to say that the 717s will not be around long term. There was a lot of discussion around the date 2015 and whether they would start phasing them out then or finish phasing them out then. Regardless of the exact time frame, I think it is safe to say the 717s are temporary at the combined WN/FL and the exit date will be determined by the negotions with the lessor and Boeing's ability to get them replacements (if they need them). Also, I think I read that Boeing is the lessor for the 717 fleet and if that is true it simplifies things for WN in terms of negotiating a good exit strategy for 717s whether they want to speed up or slow down the process.

As far as repainting, that is a tough call without knowing whether WN plans to start reducing the 717 fleet immediately or in a few years. I assume WN won't make a firm decision on that until they resolve the pilot contract issue, but if the decision is to keep the entire fleet around at least for the next few years I would expect them to want to get the repainting done A.S.A.P.
 
fadecfault
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:44 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:06 pm

From what I've read about the recent pilot TA the 717's will start conversion in January.

Not sure why most people think the 717's will be gone in the near future. His words were "It's a good airplane, but not one that I see we have to maintain for the next 20 years." How people started getting the idea they will be gone soon I don't know.

And now I saw a recent quote where he stated "“I don’t regret having them,” said Kelly, who was in town for a series of employee events celebrating the airline’s 40th year. “The odds are we will be operate those airplanes for a while.”"

http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/20...-phased-out-because-of-fuel-costs/
The views and opinions written here are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6683
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:28 pm

I am curious if WN keep the special liveries on the 717s, move them to the 737, or drop them altogether. What kind of contracts does FL have with the sports teams and Georgia Aquarium?
Love Trumps Hate
 
n7371f
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 3):
I think there's been some supposition based on the terms of the labor deal WN has proposed that they'll be sold in 2015, but nothing firm.

The 717's are leased.
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:38 pm

The 717s probably will be retired as Southwest acquires more 737s that can be used to replace them. This only can be done when Southwest has the authority to combine the operations of AirTran and the pilots of both groups have a combined agreement.   

[Edited 2011-10-07 13:39:43]
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4972
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:46 pm

Seeing as how there are too many 717's to drop the whole fleet, and there undoubtedly would be financial penalties for doing so, that makes no sense. But the biggest problem I see for WN in keeping them long term is that they can't get any more of them if they wanted to. Therefore I see them being phased out in an orderly process which will take a number of years, probably at least 10.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 5):
Not sure why most people think the 717's will be gone in the near future. His words were "It's a good airplane, but not one that I see we have to maintain for the next 20 years." How people started getting the idea they will be gone soon I don't know.

Part of the new labor agreement, as I understand it, raises 717 pilot pay to 737 rates. That makes them significantly less attractive to operate overall -- it raises the breakeven point for thin routes and it reduces the potential profit on thick routes compared to operating a 737.
 
gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1449
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:53 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:54 pm

Current plans are to start repainting and installing new interiors in January 2013. Leases expire between 2017 and 2024. I also heard WN has ordered a new 717 training simulator to be installed in Dallas.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
tsugambler
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:01 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:28 pm

Since there aren't any more 717s to be bought (new), WN will obviously have to retire them eventually... but since there's a lot of life left in the airframes, do you think anyone would try to pick them all up? DL, for example?
 
User avatar
gdg9
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 11):
Current plans are to start repainting and installing new interiors in January 2013. Leases expire between 2017 and 2024. I also heard WN has ordered a new 717 training simulator to be installed in Dallas.

That's interesting.
@dfwtower
 
RamblinMan
Posts: 785
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:57 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 7):
The 717's are leased.

Ok so then replace "sold" with "returned to lessor." Doesn't change a damn thing I said so is nitpicking really necessary?

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 9):
Seeing as how there are too many 717's to drop the whole fleet, and there undoubtedly would be financial penalties for doing so, that makes no sense.

Thank you.
 
fadecfault
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:44 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 10):

no that was the previous TA which was voted down. the new TA had the 717 pilots keeping their current contract until 2015. If the TA is approved the 717 should have a much better CASM than the classic 737's...

also if swa wanted they could remove a lav from the 717 it really doesn't need 3. That with the F class removal would brung the seat count close to 130 (imo)

[Edited 2011-10-07 21:03:22]
The views and opinions written here are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:56 pm

The current 735/733 fleet (despite 73G commonality) is likely a candidate for retirement in the next 5-10 years also. Combined with the 717 fleet...that would be an aggressive retirement schedule, so I think it's likely either the 733 or the 717 will be around for some time to come (ie, min 7-10 years).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
mrskyguy
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:13 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 3):
They will be used for a while, as there are too many to be replaced in a short timeframe. I'd be very surprised not to see them repainted, even if the plan is to get rid of them in a few years. If nothing else, WN will paint them just to make their brand more visible at ATL.

Agreed. That was something Delta/NWA and UAL/COA did quite well in their merger, IMO. From the public's eye, it was much easier to digest a single brand so quickly thanks to the quick fleet and system re-branding.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
Ditzyboy
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:15 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 15):
That with the F class removal would brung the seat count close to 130 (imo)

I believe the max certified pax count for the 717 is 125 (HA has 123, JQ had 125 at 30-31"). Don't forget that WN's pitch is over 32", while FL's is closer to 30" in Y.

The Galley 2 unit could be reduced (length-wise) to accommodate only half carts, in addition to removing a lavatory, in an effort to increase space for seating.
 
User avatar
TZTriStar500
Posts: 866
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting ditzyboy (Reply 18):
I believe the max certified pax count for the 717 is 125

It can go as high as 134 with some special certification requirements per the TCDS.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4972
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 10):
Part of the new labor agreement, as I understand it, raises 717 pilot pay to 737 rates.

Frankly, I can't see that this will be that big a factor. When you figure that the plane is burning hundreds of gallons of fuel an hour at at least $2.50 a gallon I can't see that a few dollars more per pilot is going to make that much difference. Yes, all airlines are operating on very slim margins and have to watch all costs, but I cannot see this as making that much difference. Even 717 pilots get well paid.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2639
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 2):
I believe it was announced and discussed on this forum not long ago that the 717s would not be staying in the combined fleet.

They said "long term" it has no future. The age of the airframes alone prevents that. What wasn't said is if they will use them till the end of thier lifetime or sometime sooner.
 
fadecfault
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:44 pm

RE: Current Status Of 717 With WN?

Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):

The difference can be almost $100/hr between LUV and FL flight crew pay (ca+fo).
That works out to ten's of millions in savings over a year.
The views and opinions written here are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.