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kgaiflyer
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Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:56 pm

After several months of almost weekly speculation, the discourse has stopped on who will inhabit what gates and at what concourses in BOS.

Specifically, does Massport have any new ideas on integrating the Star Alliance carriers at BOS?

Anybody in the know?
 
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STT757
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:19 pm

The last piece of news came from Dave Barger, he stated Jetblue is going to acquire all the gates in Terminal C. And to facilitate their growth MASSPORT is working to move UA to Terminal A.

Quote:
JetBlue is also trying to negotiate a deal to get control of gates used by United Airlines. That would require moving the United gates to Terminal A, which hosts Delta Airlines.
http://articles.boston.com/2011-09-2...e-barger-jetblue-providence-area/2
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deltairlines
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
The last piece of news came from Dave Barger, he stated Jetblue is going to acquire all the gates in Terminal C. And to facilitate their growth MASSPORT is working to move UA to Terminal A.

He did not say that they will acquire all the gates. The exact quote from the article is:
"To support this traffic, JetBlue hopes to gain access to all of the gates at Logan’s Terminal C.

In November, JetBlue will gain access to three gates currently held by AirTran Airways, which has been acquired by Southwest Airlines. AirTran will relocate to Terminal E, which houses Southwest.

JetBlue is also trying to negotiate a deal to get control of gates used by United Airlines. That would require moving the United gates to Terminal A, which hosts Delta Airlines."

There remains the issue that United has a lease at Terminal C for another three or four years (I think thru 2015). If United doesn't want to move, then there's nothing Massport and JetBlue can do except cry amongst themselves.

I know you REALLY want United to move to Terminal A, but for the thousandth time, there simply is no room for them. Massport can only seize two more mainline gates from Delta for underuse - the agreement that Massport and Delta reached in 2006/2007 was that Massport could take up to six mainline gates and three gates at the RJ complex from Delta. Continental has six of these - four mainline, two RJ.

Keep in mind that United has multiple 757 operations into Boston - 13 tomorrow to be exact. Those all need to use the satellite, or close off a gate on the main concourse. United also needs the operational ability to bring widebodies in, as 767s are not uncommon subs on some routes. No chance in Hades that Delta gives up one of those on the satellite, given that they do run multiple widebodies a day out of their gates to Amsterdam and Heathrow (four a day this past summer, with 3 on the ground at once being common).

Overall, six mainline gates for the combined operation at Boston would be VERY tight for United. Legacy United has 27 mainline flights tomorrow and 5 more on E-170s - all of which need jetways. Legacy Continental has 15 mainline and 6 RJ/Dash 8 flights tomorrow that can use the RJ pen. Still, it's a combined 47 daily flights - 6 gates means you're running 8 flights a day out of each gate, and this is a low season - numbers tend to go up during summers. The morning rush with only 6 mainline gates and flights to San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, multiple Newark, multiple Chicago, Dulles and Denver all being mainline would be a pain to work logistically.

While JetBlue and Massport might want United out, I don't see them moving to Terminal A. Delta's not going to give them any more gates than they need.

I believe United still has 7 gates in Terminal C, so that does help on the mainline side (though they lose the RJ spots). United/Continental might have to do a split operation like the old Terminal A in Newark (where Boston, Dallas and Chicago were the only A flights). Operationally annoying, but could work, especially given that there wouldn't be any connecting traffic in Boston on UA/CO (unlike Delta, which does have some connectivity over Boston).
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:17 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Quote:
JetBlue is also trying to negotiate a deal to get control of gates used by United Airlines. That would require moving the United gates to Terminal A, which hosts Delta Airlines.
http://articles.boston.com/2011-09-2...rea/2

For whatever reason, the link seems to be dead.

Vis-a-vis terminal A, I know it's divided into two sections. CO AFAIK occupies 2 gates. AS has one gate. Delta and Delta Connection have the remaining 18.

If I remember correctly, UA has 4 gates in terminal C. So . . . where would you think UA could be put?
 
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STT757
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:23 am

I think 7 mainline gates that included 6 UA and one shared gate with DL that could handle the 757s would not be that hard to work out. The UA domestic 757s are on their way out over the next few years replaced by PMCO 737-900ERs, and with regards to the occasional 767 flight that will all but cease as the domestic 767-300s are converted to International configurations and put into higher utilization.
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tu154
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:25 am

Couldn't UA take back the three gates leased to B6 on the UA side or f terminal ? B6 will have the former airtran gates in
november.

With that, CO can move to C and use those 3 gates and can operate under one roof.

From what I understand UA's baggage system was recently put in and a very good system at that. UA will also need
space for UnitedClub, as well as office space for ground ops as well as a flight attendant base.

Our domicile manager has gone on record saying Massport is going to have to offer a VERY, VERY sweet deal for UA
to move, and also terminal A will not fit our operation unless DL vacates................not happening.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 2):
He did not say that they will acquire all the gates. The exact quote from the article is:
"To support this traffic, JetBlue hopes to gain access to all of the gates at Logan’s Terminal C.

In November, JetBlue will gain access to three gates currently held by AirTran Airways, which has been acquired by Southwest Airlines. AirTran will relocate to Terminal E, which houses Southwest.

JetBlue is also trying to negotiate a deal to get control of gates used by United Airlines. That would require moving the United gates to Terminal A, which hosts Delta Airlines."

There remains the issue that United has a lease at Terminal C for another three or four years (I think thru 2015). If United doesn't want to move, then there's nothing Massport and JetBlue can do except cry amongst themselves.

I know you REALLY want United to move to Terminal A, but for the thousandth time, there simply is no room for them. Massport can only seize two more mainline gates from Delta for underuse - the agreement that Massport and Delta reached in 2006/2007 was that Massport could take up to six mainline gates and three gates at the RJ complex from Delta. Continental has six of these - four mainline, two RJ.

Keep in mind that United has multiple 757 operations into Boston - 13 tomorrow to be exact. Those all need to use the satellite, or close off a gate on the main concourse. United also needs the operational ability to bring widebodies in, as 767s are not uncommon subs on some routes. No chance in Hades that Delta gives up one of those on the satellite, given that they do run multiple widebodies a day out of their gates to Amsterdam and Heathrow (four a day this past summer, with 3 on the ground at once being common).

Overall, six mainline gates for the combined operation at Boston would be VERY tight for United. Legacy United has 27 mainline flights tomorrow and 5 more on E-170s - all of which need jetways. Legacy Continental has 15 mainline and 6 RJ/Dash 8 flights tomorrow that can use the RJ pen. Still, it's a combined 47 daily flights - 6 gates means you're running 8 flights a day out of each gate, and this is a low season - numbers tend to go up during summers. The morning rush with only 6 mainline gates and flights to San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, multiple Newark, multiple Chicago, Dulles and Denver all being mainline would be a pain to work logistically.

While JetBlue and Massport might want United out, I don't see them moving to Terminal A. Delta's not going to give them any more gates than they need.

I believe United still has 7 gates in Terminal C, so that does help on the mainline side (though they lose the RJ spots). United/Continental might have to do a split operation like the old Terminal A in Newark (where Boston, Dallas and Chicago were the only A flights). Operationally annoying, but could work, especially given that there wouldn't be any connecting traffic in Boston on UA/CO (unlike Delta, which does have some connectivity over Boston).

Sounds like nothing has changed.

I'd sure hate to have Massport as a landlord.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
If I remember correctly, UA has 4 gates in terminal C. So . . . where would you think UA could be put?

UA uses gates 15-21 in terminal C. 11,12, and 14 are leased to B6 which makes a total of 10 UA gates.
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tu154
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:37 am

................Or, move AA out of B, connect the two sides of the terminal via the newest US wing and VOILA!

A star alliance terminal!



Since B6 and AA are getting closer, and AA is downsizing in BOS, they could co-exist in terminal C.   
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deltairlines
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
Vis-a-vis terminal A, I know it's divided into two sections. CO AFAIK occupies 2 gates. AS has one gate. Delta and Delta Connection have the remaining 18.

Continental currently has A5, A6, A7 and A8. They also have the rights to use two of the seven parking positions in the RJ complex that comprises gates A9-A12.

Delta has A1-A4 on the main terminal, plus all ten gates (A13-A22) on the satellite. I believe the gate that Alaska uses is a Delta gate and used by Delta at times when Alaska is not using it. I know this is the type of operation that Alaska uses in Minneapolis and Atlanta.

A2 and A3 are used by the LaGuardia Shuttle. A1 has been used primarily for DCA. A4 sees some random mainline flying.

Amsterdam uses A14 each day and subsequently shuts A15 down. Heathrow uses A19 and I believe shuts down A20 (might be A18). Either way, around 400p-500p you've got a rush hour over on A-Satellite, with 2 757s to Atlanta (neither on the ground simultaneously), a 757 to Salt Lake, an A320 to Detroit, an A320 to Cincinnati, Heathrow, Amsterdam, Alaska to Portland, a CRJ-900 to Memphis, a CRJ-700 to National and a few other flights. Mornings have 2 Atlanta flights, two Detroit flights, a Minneapolis flight, Orlando, Memphis, Cincinnati, Kennedy, National and more all leaving before 700a, so towing would be difficult then.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
I think 7 mainline gates that included 6 UA and one shared gate with DL that could handle the 757s would not be that hard to work out. The UA domestic 757s are on their way out over the next few years replaced by PMCO 737-900ERs, and with regards to the occasional 767 flight that will all but cease as the domestic 767-300s are converted to International configurations and put into higher utilization.

That is true that the 757s are going to be leaving, but they will be around for a while still. And Boston will continue to see them for a while over the 737-900ER - slightly more seats, especially in the pointy end of the plane - and United does quite well (anecdotally) in First Class on the San Francisco routes. Having an extra four first class seats to sell is probably a good thing on this route, since they do tend to sell and not be upgrades. The 767 is more for equipment swaps; UA hasn't flown a widebody into Boston for a few years now on a scheduled basis, but when IROPS happen, it's not uncommon for them to drop a 767 or 777 into Boston from San Francisco or O'Hare to move people around - especially from Chicago, since you can dump a 777 in there in between Europe trips if needed after a blizzard. You can't just drop a widebody into any station based on parking, ramp equipment, etc. United does keep that functionality on hand at Boston for these events, as they do happen enough to warrant it.

And again, United can only pick up 2 mainline gates from Massport/Delta. It's not known (at least in what I've read) if it's specific to the main terminal (which would likely mean A3/A4) or if it's any gate in Terminal A.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:25 am

Quoting tu154 (Reply 5):

This is actually the best idea, but B6 keeps whining and Massport seems to want to kowtow to them.

Quoting tu154 (Reply 8):

Since B6 and AA are getting closer, and AA is downsizing in BOS, they could co-exist in terminal C.  

LOL. That won't happen. AA is WAY too big at BOS to do that.
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deltairlines
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):

LOL. That won't happen. AA is WAY too big at BOS to do that.

AA is down to 31 flights/day out of Boston in December - 8x DFW, 3x JFK, 3x LAX, 2x LHR, 7x MIA and 8x ORD (plus a token flight on Saturdays to St. Thomas).

Still, I don't see AA leaving B. The six gates on the pier are sufficient for their operation and they can give up the Eagle gates.

If they could build an airside connector between the B sides (such as the one between the WN and US sides in PHX, or C-G in MSP), then it might be a possibility to move United/Continental to B in a few years. Until then though, leases are signed with UA, AA, US, etc., and the only way to reshuffle is to get about six gates together and UA/CO need about 8.
 
washingtonian
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:53 am

Related question: What about DCA? I think BOS and DCA are the two most complicated airports for the merged airline to figure out.
 
apodino
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):

If I remember correctly, UA has 4 gates in terminal C. So . . . where would you think UA could be put?

UA has a lot more than that. They currently have all the gates on the hammerhead (Which I believe is eight gates), plus one gate on the stem that they currently use as an RJ gate.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 2):

He did not say that they will acquire all the gates. The exact quote from the article is:
"To support this traffic, JetBlue hopes to gain access to all of the gates at Logan’s Terminal C.

In November, JetBlue will gain access to three gates currently held by AirTran Airways, which has been acquired by Southwest Airlines. AirTran will relocate to Terminal E, which houses Southwest.

JetBlue is also trying to negotiate a deal to get control of gates used by United Airlines. That would require moving the United gates to Terminal A, which hosts Delta Airlines."

There remains the issue that United has a lease at Terminal C for another three or four years (I think thru 2015). If United doesn't want to move, then there's nothing Massport and JetBlue can do except cry amongst themselves.

It is well known that one of the reasons that Massport is building the central checkpoint is for B6 connections that don't have to leave security. The funny thing is the gates that FL will be vacating are C40-42 use yet a separate checkpoint and there is no way to link those gates to the two hammerheads without significant construction, which is not going to happen.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 11):
AA is down to 31 flights/day out of Boston in December - 8x DFW, 3x JFK, 3x LAX, 2x LHR, 7x MIA and 8x ORD (plus a token flight on Saturdays to St. Thomas).

Still, I don't see AA leaving B. The six gates on the pier are sufficient for their operation and they can give up the Eagle gates.

If they could build an airside connector between the B sides (such as the one between the WN and US sides in PHX, or C-G in MSP), then it might be a possibility to move United/Continental to B in a few years. Until then though, leases are signed with UA, AA, US, etc., and the only way to reshuffle is to get about six gates together and UA/CO need about 8.

AA has poured so much money into the facility in B over the years that they are not about to move. I believe the Admirals club was recently renovated as well. They won't get a facility like that for a new Admirals club in C. That being said, they do not need all the gates they have either. Most noteably would be the former Pan Am gates that are now being used by Eagle. With Eagle going away, you can create some room for UA there. I believe what Massport wants to do is link the Eagle gates with the US Shuttle gates and house CO/UA there, which essentially turns most of B into a Star Alliance terminal (Aside from AA who has practically whats left) other than LH. Since there are some gates in B that could handle widebodies, if they wanted to they could move LH departures to B. I don't think this will happen though. The other option could be for B6 and US to trade places, putting B6 in B (They would have access to more gate space in B), and then moving US to the C-25-36 pier in C and AC to C40-42. I doubt this scenario will happen though.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:29 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 13):
I doubt this scenario will happen though.

Doubt it will happen too, as B6 put a good bit of money into revamping their pier on C after Delta moved out, and US did drop a decent bit of money in the past 10-15 years on the Shuttle pier.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 12):
Related question: What about DCA? I think BOS and DCA are the two most complicated airports for the merged airline to figure out.

A big part of DCA will likely depend on the status of the US Airways-Delta slot swap. If it goes through, it could mean US Airways picking up the United gates in the central pier, Delta giving up gates in their pier and United picking them up.

Would be nice if US Airways took over the Red Carpet Club should this situation arise and make it a US Airways Club.
 
tu154
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:57 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 14):
Doubt it will happen too, as B6 put a good bit of money into revamping their pier on C after Delta moved out, and US did drop a decent bit of money in the past 10-15 years on the Shuttle pier.

Very true....... but ALL airlines in BOS have put a lot of money into their aging terminals.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. As I said before, If B6 wants all of terminal C, the deal has to be extremely sweet for UA.
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warreng24
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:58 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):
The 767 is more for equipment swaps; UA hasn't flown a widebody into Boston for a few years now on a scheduled basis, but when IROPS happen, it's not uncommon for them to drop a 767 or 777 into Boston from San Francisco or O'Hare to move people around - especially from Chicago, since you can dump a 777 in there in between Europe trips if needed after a blizzard. You can't just drop a widebody into any station based on parking, ramp equipment, etc. United does keep that functionality on hand at Boston for these events, as they do happen enough to warrant it.

I'm not a big fan of UA moving to A. However, once the lease is up, Massport may choose not to renew UA's lease at C. So, UA will mostly likely be forced to move once the lease is up.

Does Massport have buses? Perhaps during IRROPS, UA could park the widebody at a remote stand and bus the passengers in (similar to BKK or FRA).
 
deltairlines
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting tu154 (Reply 16):
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. As I said before, If B6 wants all of terminal C, the deal has to be extremely sweet for UA.

Agreed. It could be rather lucrative to United as they have all the leverage here.
 
apodino
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:35 am

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 17):

Does Massport have buses? Perhaps during IRROPS, UA could park the widebody at a remote stand and bus the passengers in (similar to BKK or FRA).

Massport actually does have buses. They used these years ago back when the CRJ first came out to bus passengers from E to the AC plane if it was a CRJ. That being said, unless the international terminal was full, UA could actually park a plane at E if need be, especially if it was an international arrival because E has customs. If it was just an overflow, I believe gates 2A and 2B can be configured as domestic gates (NW used these gates this way for many years).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):

This is actually the best idea, but B6 keeps whining and Massport seems to want to kowtow to them.

I have mentioned this in previous threads, but Massport needs to be very careful here. Many airports have had airlines with similar operations to the B6 set up in BOS or at least what B6 wants to turn it into, and when they cater to that airline and forget the others, often times the environment changes and then that carrier downsizes significantly to the point where the airport is scrambling to fill empty space. Ironically, this very situation happened in BOS with DL not too long ago when the new terminal was built (If DL had scrapped the new terminal A right after 9-11, B6 would never have had any room to grow incidentally) because DL didn't need all the gates and club space they built in A, so Massport convinced CO to move back to A to partially avoid the new terminal becoming a white elephant.

Other airports where this kind of thing happened would be PIT (New terminal was designed with a USAirways hub in mind, with a commuter terminal and all, now look what US has made PIT), IND (City spent millions to help UA build a large maintenance facility, only to have it dumped by Glenn Tilton during the UA bankruptcy), and MKE (Part of the D gate jetways were removed for a commuter ramp for YX, now F9 took over and parked the ERJ's on Jetways, and now the ERJ's are being parked period).

Quoting tu154 (Reply 16):

Very true....... but ALL airlines in BOS have put a lot of money into their aging terminals.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. As I said before, If B6 wants all of terminal C, the deal has to be extremely sweet for UA.

That is so true, and even though Massport doesn't get any taxpayer money, don't expect them to pony up all the money either. B6 is going to have to contribute if this is what they want. And even though their part of C is arguably one of the worst segments of the airport, what is being proposed in Terminal B is going to need some serious work before you even get a facility that will replace C. (New food court, possibly new baggage claim, and a new United Club)
 
delta2ual
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:16 pm

Quoting tu154 (Reply 8):
Since B6 and AA are getting closer, and AA is downsizing in BOS, they could co-exist in terminal C.  

Since Eagle is out of BOS, why couldn't this happen? Could AA and B6 share all of C? Is there enough room? It would certainly bring them closer together. Plus, it would make B a Star Alliance terminal. What will happen to the vacated CO gates in Terminal A?
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flyby519
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:07 pm

Check out the web address:

http://www.massport.com/logan-airpor...tml#/terminal/B/zone/Departures-UA

Terminal B- UA Departures??
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 21):
Check out the web address:

http://www.massport.com/logan-airpor...tml#/terminal/B/zone/Departures-UA

Terminal B- UA Departures??

Flyby,

This looks to me like a gaff -- the hyperlink actually takes me to US.Airways gates instead of UA gates.

Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
 
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STT757
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):

That is true that the 757s are going to be leaving, but they will be around for a while still. And Boston will continue to see them for a while over the 737-900ER - slightly more seats, especially in the pointy end of the plane - and United does quite well (anecdotally) in First Class on the San Francisco routes. Having an extra four first class seats to sell is probably a good thing on this route, since they do tend to sell and not be upgrades

PMCO 737-800s are already flying BOS-SFO.
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ordbosewr
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
PMCO 737-800s are already flying BOS-SFO.

one flight a day out of 6 total is on PMCO and that flight is out of the A terminal (as I am sure most would expect given it is a PMCO flight)

It is like saying that PMUA is flying EWR-SFO, technically correct but a fraction of the overall flights flown by UCH.
 
washingtonian
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
one flight a day out of 6 total is on PMCO and that flight is out of the A terminal (as I am sure most would expect given it is a PMCO flight)

It is like saying that PMUA is flying EWR-SFO, technically correct but a fraction of the overall flights flown by UCH.

STT757 exaggerating to make EWR and/or CO look better?! Impossible!!  
 
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STT757
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
one flight a day out of 6 total is on PMCO and that flight is out of the A terminal (as I am sure most would expect given it is a PMCO flight)

It is like saying that PMUA is flying EWR-SFO, technically correct but a fraction of the overall flights flown by UCH.

In five years I think you will be seeing all 737-800s and 737-900ERs on BOS-SFO. This one flight, which is being flown prior to SOC, is just a hint at what the future holds. With regards to the PMCO 737-800 flight from SFO arriving at Terminal A at BOS it's not a given it would use CO's gates. My Wife and I flew EWR-SEA on CO this past July, our flight arrived in Seattle at UA's gates at the North Terminal. The reason our flight was turning right around and flying SEA-ORD.
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STT757
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:14 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 25):
STT757 exaggerating to make EWR and/or CO look better?! Impossible!!

Lol, where did I mention EWR on this thread?
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warreng24
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:17 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
PMCO 737-800s are already flying BOS-SFO.

That's only a seasonal change of gauge.

PMCO on BOS-SFO ends 05 NOV.

After 05 NOV, there's no PMCO on BOS-SFO or BOS-LAX through end of schedule.
 
flyby519
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 22):
Flyby,

This looks to me like a gaff -- the hyperlink actually takes me to US.Airways gates instead of UA gates.

Do you know something that the rest of us don't?

No, I dont know anything at all. I was just wondering if Massport has worked a plan to move UA into the current USAirways gates in B. Maybe UA/CO in B, USAirways in A, B6 gets all of C?
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:27 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 25):
STT757 exaggerating to make EWR and/or CO look better?! Impossible!!

Washingtonian,

Your comments are ad hominem and don't encourage discourse.
 
apodino
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):

In five years I think you will be seeing all 737-800s and 737-900ERs on BOS-SFO. This one flight, which is being flown prior to SOC, is just a hint at what the future holds. With regards to the PMCO 737-800 flight from SFO arriving at Terminal A at BOS it's not a given it would use CO's gates. My Wife and I flew EWR-SEA on CO this past July, our flight arrived in Seattle at UA's gates at the North Terminal. The reason our flight was turning right around and flying SEA-ORD.

SEA is an apples to oranges comparison to BOS. In SEA there is one central terminal where all the airlines are and all the gates are linked on the secure side. In BOS, Terminal A, where CO is and Terminal C, where UA is, are on opposite sides of the airport practically, and there is no link on the secure side between the two. You can't send someone to Terminal A to check in for a CO operated flight if the flight is going to depart from C, and vice versa.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:24 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
In BOS, Terminal A, where CO is and Terminal C, where UA is, are on opposite sides of the airport practically, and there is no link on the secure side between the two. You can't send someone to Terminal A to check in for a CO operated flight if the flight is going to depart from C, and vice versa.

As a matter of fact, for anyone connecting from 9K (terminal C) to CO (terminal A) or US (terminal B), don't expect to see any checked luggage for a day or so.  
 
UNITED777ORD
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:26 pm

Is it possible for Massport to build a terminal for Jetblue next to the current International Terminal? Perhaps one option could be to build a satellite concourse next to the Delta satellite concourse across from Terminal B and put all the United/Continental gates there. This would allow Jetblue to have all of Terminal C and Massport could relocate the hangers to vacant land near runways 4R and 32.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):

Again, there has only been speculation and NO FIRM FACTS on the fact that United will replace all or most of their 757s within 5 years. That's a BS speculation. It's likely to assume that BOS will see 757 action for years to come. Therefore, terminal A will not be seen as a fit operation for the combined carrier. Even today, UA is flying 757s to all of their hubs including hour long flights to IAD. With the combined operation, I think it would be likely to see 757s on EWR and IAH as well.

Given that Massport is run by a bunch of cronies (which like the Port Authority of NY/NJ don't make a whole lot of sense in construction time lines, funding, or common sense decision making) I'll be pessimistic and say nothing is going to get done, and UA/CO will be stuck with split operations for a while.
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 33):
Is it possible for Massport to build a terminal for Jetblue next to the current International Terminal? Perhaps one option could be to build a satellite concourse next to the Delta satellite concourse across from Terminal B and put all the United/Continental gates there. This would allow Jetblue to have all of Terminal C and Massport could relocate the hangers to vacant land near runways 4R and 32.

Plans a long time ago for Logan included a Terminal F to be built to the west of the current Terminal E. If these plans were revisited, you could set up Terminal F in sort of the same way that D and E at IAH are set up, where both terminals funnel gates into the FIS facility, but the facilities are still separate. That being said though, there is no money for such a project because even if some airline were to finance it, it would still require access roads and the like to be built, and this would be next to impossible without another lengthy construction project (The airport roads are bad enough as it is)

Those same plans also included a people mover, which I think is really needed, because there are a couple of terminals (Notably B, but C to a smaller extent) that have major traffic flow problems due to all vehicles using one curbside. If you had a people mover, you eliminate the Massport Shuttle Buses (Save for the Chelsea Employee Shuttle), you eliminate the Courtesy buses for the rental cars (BOS is one of the few airports left where each rental car company has to maintain their own courtesy fleet since it has not gone the consolidated route yet). Of course this was also scrapped due to financial concerns. As a result, BOS is still way behind much of the country with airport facilities, despite what they tout about themselves.

As far a midfield concourse goes in the scenario you illustrated, it is next to impossible. For one thing, the land next to 4R and 32 is next to impossible to make sense for a hanger, because there is no way to get road access back there without either a tunnel, or crossing other active areas. Secondly, the hangars you are proposing to move is actually the FedEx facility at BOS. There is no way they are giving that up as that is an ideal location. The only way it could work would be to build a new facility in the North Cargo area, but I don't know where there is room over there unless either AA or UA decides to close their BOS hangar.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:43 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 34):

Again, there has only been speculation and NO FIRM FACTS on the fact that United will replace all or most of their 757s within 5 years.

Check out the UA 757 leases that are expiring over the next five years, then weigh that with the fact the CO/ UA has well over 50+ 737-900ERs on firm order (plus many more options) and tell me you think the 757 will be flying BOS-IAD, ORD and DEN in five years.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 34):
Therefore, terminal A will not be seen as a fit operation for the combined carrier

There are gates that can handle 757s at Terminal A, just not the ones attached to the main terminal. MASSPORT has the right to take additional gates from DL as part of their negotiated settlement reached when DL defaulted on their bond obligations during bankruptcy and stuck MASSPORT with the bill. It's not spelled out which exactly those gates are, so they could be 757 capable gates in the airside concourse.
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UNITED777ORD
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 35):

As far a midfield concourse goes in the scenario you illustrated, it is next to impossible. For one thing, the land next to 4R and 32 is next to impossible to make sense for a hanger, because there is no way to get road access back there without either a tunnel, or crossing other active areas. Secondly, the hangars you are proposing to move is actually the FedEx facility at BOS. There is no way they are giving that up as that is an ideal location. The only way it could work would be to build a new facility in the North Cargo area, but I don't know where there is room over there unless either AA or UA decides to close their BOS hangar.

Is it possible for Massport to build extension fingers on the current Terminal C concourses?
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 33):
Massport could relocate the hangers to vacant land near runways 4R and 32.

The "hangars" across from the US Airways side of Terminal B are the cargo facilities, and while there is vacant land adjacent to the harbor at the southeast corner of the airport, there's no way to get cargo across the airfield to it without building a very expensive tunnel. The North Ramp, which is where the AA & DL hangars are, is also the only place on the airport where aircraft can be parked away from the terminals & cargo ramp. So taking land away from any of these facilities for terminals ends up hampering operations at the airport.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
I think 7 mainline gates that included 6 UA and one shared gate with DL that could handle the 757s would not be that hard to work out.

Except... why would Delta and United complicate their own operations -- particularly during IRROPS -- to facilitate the expansion of a dangerous competitor? And security at Terminal A is already a big enough customer service issue at peak hours with all stations open -- adding pre-merger United would just make things worse for Delta.

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 17):
I'm not a big fan of UA moving to A. However, once the lease is up, Massport may choose not to renew UA's lease at C. So, UA will mostly likely be forced to move once the lease is up.

That's not entirely true. Massport would still need to provide comparable terminal facilities on reasonable, non-discriminatory terms (i.e. the same number of contiguous gates) or risk a lawsuit which they'd be likely to lose. Since Massport is a government authority, they don't have the same rights which a private landlord would have.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):
A2 and A3 are used by the LaGuardia Shuttle. A1 has been used primarily for DCA. A4 sees some random mainline flying.

I'm not even sure A1 can take anything larger than a CR9. I don't think I've ever seen A1 used for a mainline aircraft.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Thread starter):
does Massport have any new ideas on integrating the Star Alliance carriers at BOS?

There's very little need to integrate the Star Alliance carriers at BOS unless you're talking about LH/LX departures from UA/CO gates. Pretty much the only Star connections which make sense at BOS would be to the EAS markets in Maine and PBG -- along with FRA/MUC/ZRH. And moving out of C means losing easy connections to 9K which also operates to EAS markets in Maine, along with the Cape & Islands.

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
one flight a day out of 6 total is on PMCO and that flight is out of the A terminal (as I am sure most would expect given it is a PMCO flight)

I'd hate to show up at Terminal C 45 minutes prior to departure to be informed that the flight is going out of A!

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 34):
It's likely to assume that BOS will see 757 action for years to come. Therefore, terminal A will not be seen as a fit operation for the combined carrier. Even today, UA is flying 757s to all of their hubs including hour long flights to IAD. With the combined operation, I think it would be likely to see 757s on EWR and IAH as well.

I don't think that more 757 operations for United at BOS are likely, but I do agree that the 757 will remain a workhorse for the combined airline at BOS. CO didn't really need 757-capable gates as well over 90% of their domestic service was on 737-family aircraft.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):

There are gates that can handle 757s at Terminal A, just not the ones attached to the main terminal. MASSPORT has the right to take additional gates from DL as part of their negotiated settlement reached when DL defaulted on their bond obligations during bankruptcy and stuck MASSPORT with the bill. It's not spelled out which exactly those gates are, so they could be 757 capable gates in the airside concourse.

Even if Massport could take back two 757 gates on the midfield I don't think they would do so. UA/CO would not want to run an operation from A where they are splitting flights between the main and the midfield for various reasons. The most important one being that if this were to happen, the Presidents Club on the main would become the United Club, and I am not sure they want to operate 757 flights from gates too far away from there. (those are the big money makers for UA as well in BOS) Remember back in the day when UA actually was operating flights from what is now gate B37 and B38? Most UA passengers were not happy about the walk from C to B just to even get to security, and needless to say, UA eventually needed more space and a better facility. And DL still operates a lot of 757's into BOS, and if they lose 757 capable gates, it will restrict what they can do as well. The last thing Massport wants to do is tick off both UA and DL to accommodate B6.

If UA does end up in B, then I think F9 is going to wind up in A. DL can handle them there, but they could use a dedicated gate on the landside. The one question I have though is that if UA ends up in the Terminal B scenario, there are still plenty of landside gates in A that have no occupant. Could someone else move, or could a new carrier end up in BOS? WS still doesn't serve BOS, so they would be the most likely to start new service since almost all of the US carriers are spoken for. The only airline I could see moving would be VX, since their facility in BOS at gates B37 and B38 is not the most ideal facility, and a carrier like them would no doubt want better facilities for their passengers.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 37):

Is it possible for Massport to build extension fingers on the current Terminal C concourses?

No it is not. The C fingers as built run very close to Taxiway A, and you could not extend the C25-36 in either direction, because then you would block aircraft access to not only C25 and C27, but also the C40-42 gates, and on top of that, the VX gates and even some of AA's gates.

I suppose it is possible to extend the C11-24 pier towards E a bit, but then you would make access to some of the E1 gates very awkward for WN, not to mention the gate that UA uses as the CRJ gate.

If you were to build toward taxiway A, you would have to shift the taxiways, which would also require runways to be shifted. You cannot shift 15R-33L any further north than it is, and you do not want 4L shifted any closer to 4R either.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 34):
Again, there has only been speculation and NO FIRM FACTS on the fact that United will replace all or most of their 757s within 5 years. That's a BS speculation.

There may not be a press release, but it's far from BS speculation. I (and others) do not pull these numbers out of thin air. It's a fact that UA is actively planning to unload a substantial chunk of its 757 fleet within the next 5 years.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 34):
I'll be pessimistic and say nothing is going to get done, and UA/CO will be stuck with split operations for a while.

Agreed.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):

Check out the UA 757 leases that are expiring over the next five years, then weigh that with the fact the CO/ UA has well over 50+ 737-900ERs on firm order (plus many more options) and tell me you think the 757 will be flying BOS-IAD, ORD and DEN in five years.

The question is going to be, is it going to cost more for UA to take delivery of those firm orders, or to continue to lease the 757s? Depending on where the carrier is in the next few years, and with the 787s coming around, UA may find it better to keep the 757s around a while longer and defer the 737-900 deliveries. The ALPA contract will have a lot to do with this too if it is ever agreed on.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
Check out the UA 757 leases that are expiring over the next five years, then weigh that with the fact the CO/ UA has well over 50+ 737-900ERs on firm order (plus many more options) and tell me you think the 757 will be flying BOS-IAD, ORD and DEN in five years.

BOS-SFO would be too risky for a 739 during the winter. There would be diversions as those flights can get up and over 7 hours in duration. I think the 757s (and a 738 here and there) are perfect for BOS-SFO.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
There are gates that can handle 757s at Terminal A, just not the ones attached to the main terminal. MASSPORT has the right to take additional gates from DL as part of their negotiated settlement reached when DL defaulted on their bond obligations during bankruptcy and stuck MASSPORT with the bill. It's not spelled out which exactly those gates are, so they could be 757 capable gates in the airside concourse.

Why on earth would this happen? DL if anything has increased flights in BOS since they've built the terminal. They need those 757 gates particularly for the ATL runs. Massport isn't going to bend over backwards and take gates from DL and give them to UA. There would be an uproar.

Quoting apodino (Reply 40):
No it is not. The C fingers as built run very close to Taxiway A, and you could not extend the C25-36 in either direction, because then you would block aircraft access to not only C25 and C27, but also the C40-42 gates, and on top of that, the VX gates and even some of AA's gates.

I've never been to the UA gates but other than the RCC and the new baggage system, aren't the gate areas itself kind of dumpy? Perhaps it would make sense (in a perfect world) to move UA out to B.

Quoting apodino (Reply 42):

The question is going to be, is it going to cost more for UA to take delivery of those firm orders, or to continue to lease the 757s? Depending on where the carrier is in the next few years, and with the 787s coming around, UA may find it better to keep the 757s around a while longer and defer the 737-900 deliveries. The ALPA contract will have a lot to do with this too if it is ever agreed on.

No doubt the 739s are expensive. With the economy going the way it is right now, it might make sense to keep leasing the 757s. Again, nothing has been set in stone yet.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
codc10
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 43):
With the economy going the way it is right now, it might make sense to keep leasing the 757s. Again, nothing has been set in stone yet.

Quite a bit has to do with fuel, but do not kid yourself. These are firm orders, many of which have delivery schedules. The expense associated with bringing the majority of UA's 757s up to CO standard was determined to be too high, plus the 739ER is substantially cheaper to operate. A disposition schedule is not yet available but absolutely under consideration.
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:46 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 42):
UA may find it better to keep the 757s around a while longer and defer the 737-900 deliveries.

UA, after the merger with CO closed, already exercised an option for an additional 19 737-900ERs this past May. They are not slowing down, but rather speeding up deliveries.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 43):
No doubt the 739s are expensive. With the economy going the way it is right now, it might make sense to keep leasing the 757s. Again, nothing has been set in stone yet.

Look at DL's latest order for 100 737-900ERs, to replace 757s. AA also is getting hundreds of A321s (NEO) to replace 757s. The economics of the 757 are no longer viable in this high fuel environment on domestic routes. UA has 19 737-900ERs being delivered in 2012, something is going to be leaving the fleet as that would be too much growth domestically.
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UNITED777ORD
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:19 pm

I think Massport should move United into Terminal B and construct a landside concourse/walkway between landside Terminal A and Terminal B. That way United can have access to the Terminal A gates and access to some of the gates in Terminal B with US Airways. US Airways would have gates B5, B7, B9a/b, B11, B12, B13, B14, B15, B16, B17, B18, B19, B20, B21. United would have gates B1, B2, B3, (gates B2 and B3 would be relocated to the new landside concourse) B4, B6, B8, B10 plus at least 4 or 5 gates at the new landside concourse B, and all Terminal A gates south of the walkway to the satellite concourse.

[Edited 2011-10-10 15:57:16]
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:20 am

The AA eagle side of the terminal will have to be completely rebuilt for UA to move. It's old, dank and dark. No food options and very dated. Massport will need to rebuild it just tike the US side to make it attractive for UA to move.


......and I think they will. I think Massport will build the connect to the US side as a mirror image. Lots of windows, lots
of light and a modern world class facility. I hope so.

B6 can have terminal C. It is very outdated.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 46):
I think Massport should move United into Terminal B and construct a landside concourse/walkway between landside Terminal A and Terminal B. That way United can have access to the Terminal A gates and access to some of the gates in Terminal B with US Airways. US Airways would have gates B5, B7, B9a/b, B11, B12, B13, B14, B15, B16, B17, B18, B19, B20, B21. United would have gates B1, B2, B3, (gates B2 and B3 would be relocated to the new landside concourse) B4, B6, B8, B10 plus at least 4 or 5 gates at the new landside concourse B, and all Terminal A gates south of the walkway to the satellite concourse.

I don't know if you've ever tried it, but you can walk from C over to the Parkade and then from the Parkade to terminal A. Takes about 35 minutes. It's actually faster to go outside and catch the blue and white terminal-to-terminal shuttle.    Add 20 minutes if you're coming from a Cape Air flight to allow for you to drag your rollerbag up the stairwell next to gate 27.

Btw, wasn't the walkway that goes from the Parkade to terminal E prefabricated off-site and then dropped into place by an erector?

If so, the same could be done from B to A.

[Edited 2011-10-10 18:49:37]
 
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RE: Rationalizing CO / US / UA Gates At BOS

Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:30 am

Quoting United777ORD (Reply 46):
I think Massport should move United into Terminal B and construct a landside concourse/walkway between landside Terminal A and Terminal B. That way United can have access to the Terminal A gates and access to some of the gates in Terminal B with US Airways. US Airways would have gates B5, B7, B9a/b, B11, B12, B13, B14, B15, B16, B17, B18, B19, B20, B21. United would have gates B1, B2, B3, (gates B2 and B3 would be relocated to the new landside concourse) B4, B6, B8, B10 plus at least 4 or 5 gates at the new landside concourse B, and all Terminal A gates south of the walkway to the satellite concourse.

Where is AC going to go?

Personally, I think the combined UA staying in C is the most logical move. In C, they can have their own self-contained, personalized space that can handle all of their operations. WN/FL can move the vacated CO space in A or the freed-up AA space in B, and B6 can use D/E as overflow for their operations (esp. their Caribbean flights which have to arrive in E anyway).

There is no way that UA can fit in the US-side of B. I don't think people realize that despite its cutbacks US still has 80-something flights a day from BOS, including hourly service to LGA, PHL, and DCA. It is by far the carrier's largest outstation. It could lose 1 or 2 gates but nothing on the level UA would need.

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