nclmedic
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IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:11 am

Read this by chance this morning and haven't seen anything else written about it.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...trofits%20To%20Start%20Next%20Year

From next year, IB have announced that they will completely refit both J and Y cabins on 17 of their A340-600s. This is (of course!) long, long overdue and most people will find it incomprehensible that IB elected to buy these birds without PTVs in Y.

They are apparently going to Sogerma (EADS) for their J seats and will (finally) install PTVs in Y. This was always going to be on the cards following BA hookup and they have been talking about this in vague terms for years.

Unfortunately, I will have to endure the trip back from LIM in August in the current setup!

[Edited 2011-10-11 01:11:42]

[Edited 2011-10-11 01:12:12]
 
nclmedic
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:12 am

This will all take place 'at home' in MAD.
 
bennett123
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:39 am

iirc F is First, J is Business and Y is Economy.

Is this correct.
 
bmibaby737
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:59 am

I wonder then if they'll take this time to change the configurations, or will they remain the same?
 
gabrielchew
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:01 am

The J seats aren't too old, and are farily comfortable. They only recently (2 years ago?) played around with the spacing so they all go 180 flat. Y definately needs some assistance though. I wonder if they'll introduce Y+ to mirror BA. I lfew MEX-LHR last week and WTP was packed with Spanish speakers enroute to MEX-LHR-MAD.
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na
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:46 am

Quoting nclmedic (Thread starter):
Unfortunately, I will have to endure the trip back from LIM in August in the current setup!

Read a good book. Whats the problem to live without electronic gadgets for some hours? I dont have a problem with that at all.
 
bennett123
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:49 am

How long will they need to keep the A340-600 in service to make this all worthwhile?.
 
na
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:09 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 6):
How long will they need to keep the A340-600 in service to make this all worthwhile?.

I do not understand your question. These planes are fairly new. Just to compare, Delta is even refurbishing 22 year old 744s as they´ll fly them beyond 2016. Note that IBs A346s are 8 years and younger! They´ll likely see another refurbishment during their lifes.
 
jfk777
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:16 am

A340-600 are good for IB since they fly to many high altitude challenged airports in Latin America, the 4 engines help. I woull love to see Club World on the IB planes, IAG should standardize products across both airlines.
 
lexer
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting na (Reply 7):
I do not understand your question.

Seems to me you understand the question perfectly.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:31 am

Quoting nclmedic (Thread starter):
most people will find it incomprehensible that IB elected to buy these birds without PTVs in Y.

Not at all. IB serves a lot of low-yield markets. Reducing costs is very important to them.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
IAG should standardize products across both airlines.

That would be a horrible mistake because the two airlines are serving extremely different markets. BA is based in one of the world's three financial capitals and has one of the most premium customer bases of any airline in the world. IB has some business traffic but VFR and vacationers are its bread and butter. Of course IB should have a lower-cost product.
 
qf002
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
Of course IB should have a lower-cost product.

Ironically the standardisation would probably be lower cost for IB. Just use whatever BA spends millions developing and get bulk discounting from the manufacturer for a far superior product than they could ever have afforded by themselves...
 
airbazar
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:41 pm

Quoting nclmedic (Thread starter):
This is (of course!) long, long overdue and most people will find it incomprehensible that IB elected to buy these birds without PTVs in Y.

You mean, like LH, Europe's most succesful and profitable airline? Indeed   
 
nostrum
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:39 pm

I assume the A333s will be delivered with the new cabin.
 
nclmedic
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
You mean, like LH, Europe's most succesful and profitable airline? Indeed  

They always intended to fit PTVs in Y - the planes were even delivered with monitor slots (albeit empty)!
 
nclmedic
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:09 pm

I take it back - apparently they were delivered with a slot but they never intended (initially) to install the equipment.

My point was that most international carriers have had PTVs of some description for a while, and aircraft far older than IBs A346s have had them fitted/retrofitted way back.
 
jfk777
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
IAG should standardize products across both airlines.

That would be a horrible mistake because the two airlines are serving extremely different markets. BA is based in one of the world's three financial capitals and has one of the most premium customer bases of any airline in the world. IB has some business traffic but VFR and vacationers are its bread and butter. Of course IB should have a lower-cost product.

BA has many 777 with no First Class for its Holiday markets in the Caribean and Florida. This is NOT about the number of J class seats but about a similar product. IB planes could have a Club World with their configuration and BA a higher number with First Class. IB's A346 has 60 J class seats, hardly a small Business Class section.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Read a good book. Whats the problem to live without electronic gadgets for some hours? I dont have a problem with that at all.

I read plenty of books, but I cannot read for 14 hours straight.

I can watch movies and TV while I eat meals, and since I have a hard time sleeping on planes, I can watch films later at night and try and doze off. I feel like illumination from the screen in a dark cabin is generally less bothersome to a seatmate trying to sleep than an overhead light.

I also like the Audio selections/playlists if I am bored of my own music (or my device is juiced). I don't usually play the games, but I know a lot of people who do. Also, for the aviation enthusiast, the moving map is a great feature, since the main cabin monitors generally don't have them showing all throughout the flight (they do in some cases).

Next time you fly on a long-haul flight, observe how many people are using the PTVs, and you'll see why they are widely popular. They give people options. Especially on multi-lingual routes where the airline can offer selections that please different niches. I find them to be lifesavers, especially when flying in Y, and make the trip go by so much faster.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
nclmedic
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 17):
I read plenty of books, but I cannot read for 14 hours straight.

I agree with you totally - it's nice to have options.

I do also see that IB does (or at least did) have to appeal to a market with less disposable income, but this is much less relevant now since its amalgamation into IAG. It now has to offer at least a comparable product to BA on its long haul services.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:04 pm

And what about the -300s?

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 6):
How long will they need to keep the A340-600 in service to make this all worthwhile?.

Were you under the impression that they were to get rid of them? If you hope them switching soon-ish for something else, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, it won't happen in the foreseeable future. And what would they get? A350s? It's not like they are going to be available in less than 5 years + whatever backlog they have on them!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
Not at all. IB serves a lot of low-yield markets. Reducing costs is very important to them.

I'm not sure Latin America is actually that low in yields. I'd bet it's overall higher than Europe-N Am these days. Competition is low, and the market not so open. It is good yielding for their competitors for sure, AF-KL is on top of my mind, with great success on routes such as MEX, SCL, EZE, GIG, and expanding new destinations... And I think LH is doing fine on Lat Am as well.
What are the costs of PTVs? Open question. One sure thing though, additional generated revenue is close to zero.
When I doubt... go running!
 
Talaier
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 19):
I'm not sure Latin America is actually that low in yields. I'd bet it's overall higher than Europe-N Am these days. Competition is low, and the market not so open. It is good yielding for their competitors for sure, AF-KL is on top of my mind, with great success on routes such as MEX, SCL, EZE, GIG, and expanding new destinations... And I think LH is doing fine on Lat Am as well.
What are the costs of PTVs? Open question. One sure thing though, additional generated revenue is close to zero.

IB's LatAm routes do extremely well. You just have to see prices for SCL for instance, when a ticket rarely goes below 1000 EUR Y return. I've seen LHR-LAX tickets for almost half that amount and the flight is barely a couple of hours longer.

The thing is IB never needed to cater its Y pax in a luxurious manner since competition was very low: most LatAm-Europe passengers were bound for or originated from Madrid anyways so they had a high percentage of O&D traffic that will fly a direct flight even if there is an inferior product.
 
GSTBA
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
IB's A346 has 60 J class seats, hardly a small Business Class section.


IB's J cabin is actually currently fitted with only 42 seats. After the 2012 refit this will increase to 46.

When the A346 first entered service the J cabin was fitted with a total of 52 seats. Back in late 2009 IB announced that the would reconfigure there J cabin on it's A346's to offer customer more space. By removing an entire row of Business Plus seats from its A340 fleet, and repositioning the remaining seats, will increase the space between each row by 30cm (from 152cm to 183cm), and enable each seat to recline into a fully horizontal sleeping position. This resulted in the J cabin having only 42 seats.

IB completed the reconfiguration of there A346's back in March 2010.

Article re 2009 refit:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...ia-revamps-business-class-offering

[Edited 2011-10-11 14:38:11]
 
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seabosdca
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 19):
I'm not sure Latin America is actually that low in yields.

For certain routes, particularly GRU, EZE, and SCL (in that order), I'm sure you're right.

But there are a lot of other routes in the network, which I'm sure are pretty low in yields. Yes, competition is not what it could be, but there is just not that much high-yielding traffic to be had.

And remember, the decision not to put PTVs or AVOD in the 346 fleet was made before the current Latin American economic expansion really began. The picture is probably different today than it was in 2003 -- thus the refit.
 
jfk777
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 21):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
IB's A346 has 60 J class seats, hardly a small Business Class section.

IB's business class cabin is actually fitted with 42 J seats. This is confirmed on in the article in the original post. After the refit the number of J seats will increase to 46.

The A343 have 42 and the A346 have 52. Hardly small J cabins for the size airplanes.
 
GSTBA
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The A343 have 42 and the A346 have 52. Hardly small J cabins for the size airplanes.

Have edited my post to include a link with a article regarding a refit IB carried out in 2009

Just been on a A343 ex MAD and can confirm that the A343's are fitted with only 36 seats

IB website A346 seat map:

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...acRCRD&origen=plano&vengode=Iberia

IB website A343 seat map:

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...acRCRD&origen=plano&vengode=Iberia

[Edited 2011-10-11 15:03:45]
 
KPDX
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:22 pm

Good news. It's always good to see "rare" types get their service lives extended.  
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Icaro
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:44 am

A343 have 36 or 24 depending on configuration, A346 have all 42 J/C seats
 
AirbusA6
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:25 am

Any chance of the A343s being refitted too, as there's no replacement for them ordered yet, and they're still quite an efficient bird, especially for some of Iberia's routes?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
Quoting nclmedic (Thread starter):
This is (of course!) long, long overdue and most people will find it incomprehensible that IB elected to buy these birds without PTVs in Y.

You mean, like LH, Europe's most succesful and profitable airline? Indeed

If Richard Branson was German and had launched Virgin from Germany, I doubt LH could have got away with the lack of PTVs for so long, I'm sure the presence of VS, and their enormous talent for publicity, pushed BA into installing PTVs on their long haul fleet.
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qf002
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:56 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 27):
Any chance of the A343s being refitted too, as there's no replacement for them ordered yet, and they're still quite an efficient bird, especially for some of Iberia's routes?

They've already ordered A330-300's -- iirc the order was 6-12 months ago, it's mentioned in the article up there.
 
bennett123
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:09 am

"Iberia will retire its A340-300 fleet when new A330-300s begin to arrive in 2015, but the A340-600s will stay in service at least until those deliveries start rolling in".

Aviation Week item attached to OP.

Also the first flights of these aircraft range from 1994 to 2001.

By 2015, the oldest aircraft will be over 20 years old and all of the A340-311/313, apart from the A340-313X will be over 18 years old.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Iberia-active-a340.htm
 
r2rho
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:00 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 27):
If Richard Branson was German and had launched Virgin from Germany, I doubt LH could have got away with the lack of PTVs for so long, I'm sure the presence of VS, and their enormous talent for publicity, pushed BA into installing PTVs on their long haul fleet.

And since IB, like LH, has never had a "Virgin" competing against them in their home market (all previous failed attempts like Air Madrid and Air Comet were textbook examples of bad airline management), they, like LH, could get away with it. Furthermore, as has been said, IB's offers direct routings to many destinations versus others that have PTV's but require transfers and backtracking when departing from Spain.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 29):
Iberia will retire its A340-300 fleet when new A330-300s begin to arrive in 2015

This sounds far too late. According to IB they are to arrive between fall 2012 and spring 2014:

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...b0fb100310VgnVCM20000060fe15acRCRD

Already IB is stretched thin and has to limit routes due to lack of a/c, and there was even an attempt to short-term lease 2 A330's a while back. Those A330's cannot arrive soon enough for them!
 
AirbusA6
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 30):
Already IB is stretched thin and has to limit routes due to lack of a/c, and there was even an attempt to short-term lease 2 A330's a while back. Those A330's cannot arrive soon enough for them!

If that's the case, then the A330s may also be used for growth, rather than fleet replacement, as Iberia have no other long haul aircraft on order.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
jfk777
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RE: IB To Refit 17 A346s From 2012

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 24):
Have edited my post to include a link with a article regarding a refit IB carried out in 2009

Just been on a A343 ex MAD and can confirm that the A343's are fitted with only 36 seats

Hey Seatguru.com had 42 and 52 seats, obviously old maps.

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