PanHAM
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Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:40 pm

The State of Hesse Administrative Court in Kassel has decicded to stop the 17 permitted night ops at FRA when the new landing runway become soperational on Oct 21st pending the "final" decision by the Supreme Administrative Court in Leipzig.

This is a real blow for Lufthansa Cargo who depend on a certain number of night ops to keep their business model of interchangeability between pax belly loads and main deck alive.

If this is upheld it will cost several thousands jobs in the cargo industry and I really cannot understand why the SPD party is cheering this ruling, aren't they supposed to be on the side of the weakest who will lose their jobs? Crazy politics.

It will be interesting to watch this developing....

..
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blueflyer
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:59 pm

Is there any timeline for a decision from Leipzig?

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
aren't they supposed to be on the side of the weakest who will lose their jobs?

The jobs sustained by 17 night time flights do not compare to the thousands of people in the suburbs complaining that would never forget the SPD for getting in the way.

If jobs was the only consideration, the SPD's brothers should be in favor of an extra runway and an end to the night time curfew at LHR for the hundreds, if not thousands, of extra jobs it will create, and they would have never allowed the elimination of most night-time flights at BRU, at the cost of thousands of DHL jobs uplifted to LEJ.

[Edited 2011-10-11 09:00:02]
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PanHAM
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
Is there any timeline for a decision from Leipzig?

Spring 2012

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
The jobs sustained by 17 night time flights do not compare to the thousands of people

it's a few hundred NIMBYs. Closing the main gateway of the worlds second largest export nation is a bitter joke. The amount of exports through FRA is € 600 million daily. This coincerns more than a couple of hundered cargo handlers or office jobs in freight forwarding firms., In the long run if will affect the indutry of the region and the country. Airports, especially large ones like FRA, have a national importance as essential infrastructure serving the industry and the people as well. this goes together, infrastructure and industry are not the enemy of people. The benefits are serving also those complaining.

I wonder how judges can think that the business which is in jeopardy now or lost to other gateways could come back in sping 2012 if Leipzig comes to a different ruling? Freight routings which will no longer be possible now for a number of reasons will go elsewhere.

This reminds of the old carricature of "Michel" with the night lamp and the "Zipfelmuetze" (pointed cap).
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Closing the main gateway of the worlds second largest export nation is a bitter joke. The amount of exports through FRA is € 600 million daily. This coincerns more than a couple of hundered cargo handlers or office jobs in freight forwarding firms., In the long run if will affect the indutry of the region and the country. Airports, especially large ones like FRA, have a national importance as essential infrastructure serving the industry and the people as well. this goes together, infrastructure and industry are not the enemy of people. The benefits are serving also those complaining.

You will never by able to make someone from SPD understand this!
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:58 pm

There are more people that live near the Autobahn than near the Airport.

They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:52 pm

..and the railways as well. The amazing thing is that from major roads - be that Autobahn or Interstate there is a constant noise level which simply does not exist even at major airports. Every 50 or 60 seconds at best. However, that is totally neglected by the NIMBYS, I stayed at the master robert Hotel which is underneath the flight path to LHR several times over the years. The first landings come in before 5 am, it is really not anything disturbing. A motorbike after midnight on a local road yes, but no one complains about that.

Closing down a major airport, a billion € investment in infrastructure is plain dumb considering that major population centers have a certain noise level anyhow. Politicians praising the decision of the judges is unbelievable. Don't they realize that jobs are at stake? It will be interesting to watch the various statements coming up.

.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to watch this developing....

I'm afraid it will be sad.  
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):
They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.

  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Politicians praising the decision of the judges is unbelievable. Don't they realize that jobs are at stake? It will be interesting to watch the various statements coming up.

Only if there is a sharp layoff will the politicians wake up. I'm in California. Trust me, politicians can be clueless about driving out jobs for generations...

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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:09 pm

I'm confused. How does 17 night operations equal thousands of jobs? To me it means far fewer than that. What flights currently use the night time operation slots? Will there be a massive shift away from FRA because of this?
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
I wonder how judges can think that the business which is in jeopardy now or lost to other gateways could come back in sping 2012 if Leipzig comes to a different ruling? Freight routings which will no longer be possible now for a number of reasons will go elsewhere.

Well, judges should just consider laws. It's the lawmaker who should consider the implications of their laws and us voters who should consider the implication of our votes. Sometimes it helps to voice concerns aboout political decisions - the NIMBY fraction is very good at this, hence NIMBY-laws are gaining ground and this won't change as long as there are no massive protests from people whose jobs are at stake.

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.

Well, there are speed limits during the night at many stretches of Autobahn for noise protection reasons.

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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:36 pm

Well, the situation in FRA is a bit more complex. The then Prime Minister of the state of Hessia promised a complete ban of flights from 11PM to 5AM if the new runway gets approved. After they won the court decision, they started to say, that there will be up to 17 exceptions to the night ban, which was now temporarily stopped by the court.

I also don't like the decision and I agree with PANHAM that a lot of jobs might be lost because airlines might move there complete operation to another airport, both the night and the daytime operation.

So decision by the high court will be of highest importance, not only for FRA but also for the new airport in BER.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:03 pm

Lufthansa Cargo loses a major asset of their business model, the connectivity between long distance pax and cargo ops. The opposition simply does not understand, they still mumble about shifting cargo to HHN wich is complete BS and does not work.

LH will now have to decide what to do with the close to 1600 night ops for the winter schedule, they won't get new slots in China, so the decision is canx altogether or move to LEJ, I am afraid a mix of both will happen.

Quoting frat (Reply 9):
The then Prime Minister of the state of Hessia promised a complete ban of flights from 11PM to 5AM if the new runway gets approved. After they won the court decision, they started to

I told him several times that he's wrong but he did not listen to me.   No, I really did but of course he had to balance his opinion because here in MTK there are some places against the airport and this is a delicate political matter, that explains that. This "promise" was political BS anyhow since in a democratc state nmo elected politician can "promise" such things. We live in a state ruled by the law and not by decret. Surprisingly, in such cases all of a sudden all the democratic elected opposition leaders become absolute rulers who talk drivel about night bans..

The Merkel government had a chance in the first year before the NRW state election to change the aviation law making it impossible to shut down majr airports during the night. That could have been done for FRA, CGN NUE HAJ have it anyhow and for LEJ , may be another one that would have coveered the essential needs of a modern export based economy. They chickened out, afraid of the voters and now they have the mess. Had they done it, the court would not have had a case.

Quoting pelican (Reply 8):
Well, judges should just consider laws.

They must, not should. But I think they also must observe the interest of others, companies like EXT who may eventiually have to shut down because of this, LHCargo, Condor etc have rights and their employees do as well. this was totally neglected in this decision.

Quoting pelican (Reply 8):
Well, there are speed limits during the night at many stretches of Autobahn for noise protection reasons.

and still it can be heard. I live 3 km from the A3, I sleep well, it does not disturb me, but the A3 can be heard even in that distance, 24 hors a day. What really pi...es me off is that motor bike at 00:30 when I just went to bed, revving up all the way down to the next village. These morons should be banned 8 pm to 8 am.

.
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LAXintl
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:57 pm

This decision was long time in coming.

If LH feels night time cargo ops are so critical let it operate from Hahn, or move completely to another airport such as CGN.

Otherwise let LH use up some of its vast daytime slot holdings (which will only increase with the added runway) to operate its cargo flights during daylight hours instead.

The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7, but the health and comfort of the thousands of citizens that must endure the discomfort of airport activity.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
What really pi...es me off is that motor bike at 00:30 when I just went to bed, revving up all the way down to the next village. These morons should be banned 8 pm to 8 am.

   totally agree... and not just those hours... I just don't understand how cars/trucks/planes etc have to achieve certain maximum db levels and yet motorbikes can pass when they are far louder! You can have a triple glazed house and still hear a loud motorbike 1km away! They are often louder than emergency vehicles! I don't mind people having motorbikes and I understand that they feel the noise is part of the experience, but really they need to be muffled down to the same noise restrictions as cars (including when they are revved up). Back OT.... would a 12am-5am curfew help the situation rather than the 11pm-5am?
Another airline this curfew will effect is QF with its night flight to SIN.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:38 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7, but the health and comfort of the thousands of citizens that must endure the discomfort of airport activity.

Then let's shut down LAX after 23:00 first. And then impose a similar curfew on all the freeways that Los Angeles is so pathologically dependent upon. Actually, let's make it no driving at all allowed at night.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
it's a few hundred NIMBYs.

Exactly. And the sad reality is that nimbys are not only preventing aviation from functioning properly, they are shutting down growth in the places that would be the most sustainable here in the States, like urban cores and other dense areas with developed services and facilities. Residential and growth is being pushed to the hinterlands where public transportation is unavailable and jobs are geographically scattered, if at all available. Same thing with major airports that already have the surrounding and supporting infrastructure in place, they are not allowed to grow, even organically, and thus the growth - because growth is unstoppable - happens elsewhere.

In the case of Germany - and Europe as a whole - this contradiction will play out on a global scale. If European countries don't want to maintain a competitive environment for world aviation - such as international transfer hubs and cargo operations - we have already seen that the likes of Emirates will gladly step in where others are no longer capable or willing to provide the services or infrastructure environments necessary to support a very competitive, global industry. I think within the next few years, the term "footloose" will take on a whole new relevance in the realm of international travel.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
Then let's shut down LAX after 23:00 first.

Fine with me.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
And then impose a similar curfew on all the freeways that Los Angeles is so pathologically dependent upon. Actually, let's make it no driving at all allowed at night.

Cars hardly make noise levels even close to what airplanes put out unless you live right adjacent to a freeway.


I live 10 miles from LAX, about 10 from BUR and about 5 from SMO and can unfortunately hear aircraft to/from all three especially late at night when ambient noise levels drop. It can be noticable during the day, and plain bothersome at night.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
In the case of Germany - and Europe as a whole - this contradiction will play out on a global scale. If European countries don't want to maintain a competitive environment for world aviation -

Its not like Germany and Europe are without 24 hour airports. Airlines are free to utilize those.

Enough is enough, and a very generous 11pm-5am curfew is more than reasonable.
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PanHAM
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
If LH feels night time cargo ops are so critical let it operate from Hahn, or move completely to another airport such as CGN

Not feasible. I said that part oif the business model is connectivity between their pax and all cargo flights and that can only be achieved at FRA. LH pulled out of CGN altogether, opening new stations at either HHN or CGN would be costly and no customer would pay for the additional cost. The least damage is done by moving these lfights to LEJ but the product does not work there as well as at the main hub. Should be understandable oin this forum.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7

This is a very sinmgle sided view., It is more than one company, there are freight forwarders, manufacturers, importers depending on the servie lH provides, there is another small cargo carrier, brokers and whoever is making a living out of this. There is the general public which is noit aware of it but partly depending on the tax base generated which will now be less. The greater good has been damaged by this court decision already.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Cars hardly make noise levels even close to what airplanes put out unless you live right adjacent to a freeway

No other means of transportation besides cars produces a constant noise level over 24 hours.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Not feasible. I said that part oif the business model is connectivity between their pax and all cargo flights and that can only be achieved at FRA. LH pulled out of CGN altogether, opening new stations at either HHN or CGN would be costly and no customer would pay for the additional cost. The least damage is done by moving these lfights to LEJ but the product does not work there as well as at the main hub. Should be understandable oin this forum.

What about moving the cargo department to Munich? I know that the airport is also closed at night but from what I can remember there aren't so many neighbourhoods around the airport.
Maybe the Bavarians would actually allow them to have several flights during the night. Lufthansa's Munich network is not as extensive as that of Frankfurt but it's still not bad.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:11 am

They have a "cargo department" not only in MUC but all other airports they fly to in Germany, like HAM DUS STR etc. Each plane carries cargo and what is not flown is trucked.

FRA is he main hub with the most flights and only here the connectivity between cargo flown on pax aircraft and freighters can be achieved. The 3 destinationas ainly affected by this dumb court ruling are in the US and NBO/JNB. To achieve a same day delivery after customs clearance in the USA flights must bepart FRA around 4 am . The additional hour means already that a) the slot is not available and b) customs might not clear that morning.

This is a severe blow not only for the airlines but for the exporting industry as well.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:52 am

Is it a daily flight to NBO/JNB and how many flights depart to the US at 04:00? If it is just a couple of them then it doesn't make sense to stop them. I am sure that a few flights are not going to wake up the entire neighbourhood.

Plus, if someone buys a house in close proximity to the airport then it's his own fault.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:14 am

The new runway agreement was that the number of night ops are scaled down from around 50 to 17, that was a compromise already. These 17 ops include take offs and landings, hence, depending which directions the ops are only 8 to 9 affect people underneath the direct flight path.

Whoever wakes up in the night because of flights and if not by regular traffic noise, wakes up because of the grass growing as well.

A few hundred people cause a desaster for businesses depending on these night ops and that is not only the airlines and forwarders, it means also manufacturers who depend on next day delivery.

But it is a desaster also for leisure carriers like Condor which needs early departures and late arrivals to make efficient use of their equipment. Condor might have no other choice but leaving FRA, eventually Germany altogether and base their aircraft where 24 hour ops is available, as well as the traffic potential.

[Edited 2011-10-12 00:17:03]
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TheSonntag
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:27 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):

But it is a desaster also for leisure carriers like Condor which needs early departures and late arrivals to make efficient use of their equipment.

Sorry but thats rediculous. First of all, they are still free to use CGN (as long as the red-green government remains reasonable). Also, their customers live here.

Secondly, regarding LH Cargo the ban is only 6 hours. More than enough time to land in HHN and truck the cargo to FRA.

I do not like NIMBYs either, but telling the world that LH Cargos business model will collapse from 17 flights is also a gross over estimation.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:47 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
Secondly, regarding LH Cargo the ban is only 6 hours. More than enough time to land in HHN and truck the cargo to FRA.

sorry but this is ridiculous. Do you know how long it takes to process a pallet through the warehouse, facilitae customs formalities, cancel the customs formalities at the destination airport again after trucking and load again? Obviously you haven't got a clue about this. Besides, who is going to pay for that? The customer certainly not. Rates are dictated by the market and not by hurdles set up by courts or governments. LH does not have a station at HHN, to set that up plus 30 to 50.000 truck loads per annum would cost roughly 100 million € which could not be loaded to customers.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
Sorry but thats rediculous. First of all, they are still free to use CGN

so you are telling FRA and region residents to travel to CGN to catch their leisure flight? I tell you how it will happen, running a leisure carrier in Germany will no longer be possible, jobs will go to Turkey (happens already) or Spain.

Anyway, the federal government has to end this farce by amending the applicalble law and make necessary night operations possible.

Germany is not an absolute state. Companies and people who work in these companies have roights too and the answer is always a compromise. reudcing from 50 to 17 was already a compromise and no one advocates unnecesary flights making it mandatory to operate only the state of the art equipment like 777F would be no problem either. LH hjas enough to use MD11s for day flights only.

I hope that this ruling will be reversed in LEJ, if not by a new law in the Bundestag. The damage has been done however. Freight that will take another route will hardly come back. As an old freight dog you can take my word for that.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:47 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Condor might have no other choice but leaving FRA, eventually Germany

Allthough I also do not agree with the NIMBYs, I really doubt about this argumnent. The people from the region around FRA will continue to fly to their holiday destination, with Condor or someone else.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:57 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):

Germany is not an absolute state. Companies and people who work in these companies have roights too and the answer is always a compromise. reudcing from 50 to 17 was already a compromise and no one advocates unnecesary flights making it mandatory to operate only the state of the art equipment like 777F would be no problem either.

Maybe, but LH gets so many more slots during the day that they really get the opportunity for further growth - just not during the night. Ask BA if they would accept that curfew if they were to be granted another runway for LHR...
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):

You are talking about pax operations vs cargo ops.

For those of you saying night ops shouldn't be allowed, should we ban FedEx from operating at night at MEM?
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:21 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):
Ask BA if they would accept that curfew if they were to be granted another runway for LHR...

Heathrow already has a curfew.

BA manage to be one of Europes largest cargo airlines without a single cargo plane at Heathrow.
Heathrow is 50% bigger than Frankfurt (pax numbers) and all with only 2 runways and a 23-05 curfew.
My lateshift currently finishes at approx 0015. In November, I'll be home 90 minutes earlier.
Three cheers for the curfew.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:08 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):
Maybe, but LH gets so many more slots during the day that they really get the opportunity for further growth

yes, nice, but we are talking about cargo and day slots are of little use when the freight is still inproduction.



Quoting wdleiser (Reply 24):
For those of you saying night ops shouldn't be allowed, should we ban FedEx from operating at night at MEM?

wouldn't be much left of MEM, but I am sure that the city fathers don't even think about such an idiocy. Fred would throw them out.

.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 25):
Heathrow is 50% bigger than Frankfurt (pax numbers) and all with only

make it 20 to 25% and movements are about the same and BA could do better as a cargo carrier if they ever had tried to build up what LH did. They lack connectivity, so they could not.

In simple words, your's is a bad example, it shows what happens if essential night ops are not possible.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Why dont LH move everything to HHN, pax and cargo? Its not that far away from business centers, and especially with the dense highspeed railsystem in Germany this would work.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:25 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 27):
Why dont LH move everything to HHN, pax and cargo? Its not that far away from business centers, and especially with the dense highspeed railsystem in Germany this would work.

LOL, HHN is a single runway airport with a shack called terminal and farther away from it's namesake city than any other in the world, if, it would make more sense to move everything to CGN which exists and already has a HSR connected to FRA. The problem is, CGN could not take a fraction of the movements and the HSR line could not take a fraction of the pax movements either.

The point is, make use of existing, vital and essential infrastructure which is ONLY available at FRA and needs to be used 24 hours a day, not only 18. That is a waste of resources.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Otherwise let LH use up some of its vast daytime slot holdings (which will only increase with the added runway) to operate its cargo flights during daylight hours instead.

The issue is that the curfew opens up other airports and thus other airlines to competition. While LH could move the tonnage, it won't be as timely as connected cargo will sit for the cerfew. Some fraction will find a home trucked/rail/otherwise bypassed at other airports.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
If LH feels night time cargo ops are so critical let it operate from Hahn, or move completely to another airport such as CGN.

Where is the cargo and pax O&D? If they are split, operations and profits suffer. I'm not a fan of split hubs. FRA is LH's main hub for a reason. The planes could be moved to MUC easy. The issue is that MUC doesn't have enough O&D traffic for the huge volume of belly cargo that FRA handles. Without being able to timely consolodate that belly cargo onto ongoing freighters, the business will shift elsewhere.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 25):
Three cheers for the curfew.

EK probably agrees with you.    I've posted in many a.net threads that I theorize that the rise of the mid-east carriers was only possible due to restrictions on growth, including nighttime cerfews, at the European hubs.

Cargo doesn't get emotionally over-attached to FF miles. Companies air-freight to save time. I've hand carried parts that were costing my employer more than my anual salary, benefits, and overhead per hour (in penalties). If the parts could have arrived timely by airfreight, that is how we would have done it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
Quoting wdleiser (Reply 24):
For those of you saying night ops shouldn't be allowed, should we ban FedEx from operating at night at MEM?


wouldn't be much left of MEM, but I am sure that the city fathers don't even think about such an idiocy.

MEM is proof how cargo is 'fly by night.' This won't be the end of LH, but it certainly will hurt their ability to sell cargo hauling. Six hours plus of down time is a large advantage to give Skycargo and LH's other competitors...

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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
30 to 50.000 truck loads per annum

which of course do not create noise, do not emit CO2, and do not require building of new roadways through forests...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 29):
I've posted in many a.net threads that I theorize that the rise of the mid-east carriers was only possible due to restrictions on growth, including nighttime cerfews, at the European hubs.

   It seems that every other month, someone in Europe comes out with new ideas to make DXB a more attractive hub...
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:24 pm

@ Lightsaber - MEM is different as it is the cradle of the integrator system which Fred S. invented. Works only with night ops and FX moved to CGN already months ago. Smart move.

LH is a combination carrier and the "combination" together with the connectivity makes them unique and superior over their competition. This is at stake now and that is the real problem. But there's another advantage that makes FRA THE main freight hub and the is the location.

Location, location and location are the three main reasons to set up shop and FRA always has been the cross roads from medieval times onwards. It is not only near to the geographic center of Europe but to the demographic centre as well. it is the natural location.

The other point is, you cannot split a hub. Period. Nobody, no customer is paying for the trucks between HHN and FRA, this is simply a no go and LH always has said that often enough. It is amazing that politicians still BS about this and want to "relocate" freight. How they do that in an economy where companies are free to decide remains a mystery.

Still, LH has the advantage that they can use the facilities in LEJ which is the DHL hub (interesting historic development, this used to be the old LH European night freighter star, which was moved to CGN around 1995 and now is at LEJ). So basically we have split hubs and DHL runs 2 freighters to FRA to feed the belly shipments into the worldwide flights here.

Normally, the DHL hub should be here, again for connectivity. For noise reasons it is not.

You can see, much has been done in the inteterest of the people in the region. Inclue the DHL hiub and all others, we would be talking about an additional 130 to 150 movements, lousy 17 have now been trashed.

Taking the rights of the NIMBYs into account certainly did not pay out for the industry. Industry is supposed to earn the money which is needed to run the society, pay for all the various taxes and contributiions and then industry is left in shambles bevause politicians did not do their homework. Berlin is responsible at the end of the day because they did not change the applicable law to make it mandatory that main gateways cannot be closed at nights. They had the majority for that after the election 2 years ago in both houses.

Now it's too late. I wonder how all the debt will be repaid under such conditions.
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keuleatr72
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:33 pm

The curfew won´t be the end for Lufthansa Cargo. But I am a little bit surprised to see that neither Lufthansa, nor the airport, nor the State of Heese had a back-up-plan for this outcome. Two years ago The State of Hesse Administrative Court had sacked a decision by the State of Hesse to allow 17 flights to be operated between 11pm and 5am.
It is hard to believe that Lufthansa Cargo was caught on the wrong foot by the latest decision of the court.

But lets not forget what the airport of Frankfurt and especially Lufthansa as its biggest customer get in exchange. By 2020 the yearly capacity can rise to 700.000 flights a year. And together with the third Terminal Frankfurt will be able to handle a staggering 90 million passengers a year! Last year the airport saw roughly 432.000 flights which equals to 1.183 flights/day. By 2020 the airport will be able to operate close to 1.918 flights/day. That are pretty impressive numbers for an airport that is surrounded by so many communities and cities.

In my opionion the Lufthansa-Group and the Fraport can thank the former head of the goverment of Hesse, Roland Koch.
He promised, that in exchange for the fourth runway and the following rise in capacity, a night curfew would be implemented. With days to go to the elections in 2008 he suddently said, that despite the night curfew, 17 flights could be operated from 11pm to 5am. But the comprise who had been reached through tough years of negotiations was chrystal clear: Frankfurt can build the fourth runway but has to implement a strict night curfew.

Strike two has now been called by the The State of Hesse Administrative Court. We will see more in spring of 2012 when the Supreme Administrative Court in Leipzig makes its decision. But it doesn´t look good.

I say take the 50% rise in capacity and forget about these 17 flights/night.

Just my two cents!
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wilco737
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:35 pm

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 32):
The curfew won´t be the end for Lufthansa Cargo. But I am a little bit surprised to see that neither Lufthansa, nor the airport, nor the State of Heese had a back-up-plan for this outcome.

There is a plan B and there are already things done against that night curfew. So last word not spoken here.

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 32):
It is hard to believe that Lufthansa Cargo was caught on the wrong foot by the latest decision of the court.

Because nobody expected it like that. They expected the number to be reduced, but nobody said it would go down to zero.
For the winter schedule they are very busy now as it starts in 10 days... So they should hurry up to plan all the rotations all new.


LH Cargo will be a lot smaller when this actually happens. It won't be the end, but LH cargo will be smaller.

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ordpark
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:58 pm

It is comforting to know that there are out of touch politicians in Germany as well as the U.S.....
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:59 pm

@PanHAM;

Well written. Overall I agree.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
MEM is different as it is the cradle of the integrator system which Fred S. invented. Works only with night ops and FX moved to CGN already months ago. Smart move.

I suspect LH's operations would work far better with both FX and DHL at FRA. Noisey? Sure. But as you note:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
The other point is, you cannot split a hub. Period. Nobody, no customer is paying for the trucks between HHN and FRA, this is simply a no go and LH always has said that often enough.

Which will slow LH's cargo growth and they will have to remove that burden cost from somewhere else.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 30):
It seems that every other month, someone in Europe comes out with new ideas to make DXB a more attractive hub...

and:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
So basically we have split hubs and DHL runs 2 freighters to FRA to feed the belly shipments into the worldwide flights here.

Normally, the DHL hub should be here, again for connectivity. For noise reasons it is not.

We can agree, no one will pay for trucks or those 2 freighters. LH/DHL must compete in the global market. If FRA's location gives it enough of an advantage, cargo will still move through. There will be a definate drop in revenue for connecting cargo if LH tries to recoop added costs their competitors will not see.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
LH is a combination carrier and the "combination" together with the connectivity makes them unique and superior over their competition. This is at stake now and that is the real problem. But there's another advantage that makes FRA THE main freight hub and the is the location.

   I agree that has been LH's advantage and is not 'at stake.' I also agree FRA has a great location. But a six hour hold is not going to work.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 33):
There is a plan B and there are already things done against that night curfew. So last word not spoken here.

I hope it is resolved and the slots are grown to a more reasonable number. 25 to 50 nighttime slots. 17 is too few.

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keuleatr72
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:38 pm

Quoting lightsaber:

I hope it is resolved and the slots are grown to a more reasonable number. 25 to 50 nighttime slots. 17 is too few.

Geez, 50 nighttime slots? With 50 nighttime slots we would see those civil-war-like pictures, we already saw back in the 80´s when the "Startbahn West" was build.
But that won´t ever happen! As I said before. Strike two has been called and now it is very likely that the decision of The State of Hesse Administrative Court will be confirmed by the Surpreme Administrative Court in Leipzig.

@wilco737

Maybe they can work something out, that will satisfiy both sides. Maybe a sweet deal like bringing in those shiny 777F of Aerologic and transfer some of the 11s to LEJ. Of course that would mean to re-schedule the flights ex LEJ. But maybe it is an option to keep at least a couple of the nighttime slots alive.
This is the time when the law departement as well as upper mangement of LH can really earn their money.

I am not against the fourth runway. I am for the capacity increase. But I also recognise the fact, that noise has really become a problem in our society that needs to be dealt with. The people around FRA accepted the capacity increase by nearly 50%. The only thing they want, is a good nighttime rest.
Not everybody loves the sound of a heavily loaded "Donnerbock" thundering down 25C @ FRA. (I do!)

[Edited 2011-10-12 13:40:31]

Edit for typo


[Edited 2011-10-12 13:58:40]
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fraT
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 36):

I am not against the fourth runway. I am for the capacity increase. But I also recognise the fact, that noise has really become a problem in our society that needs to be dealt with. The people around FRA accepted the capacity increase by nearly 50%. The only thing they want, is a good nighttime rest.
Not everybody loves the sound of a heavily loaded "Donnerbock" thundering down 25C @ FRA. (I do!)

The question is: How many people are against those night flights when on the other hands, jobs would be lost at FRA.
Not sure, how old you are. But I remember the times very well when Rhein Main Airbase was in use and there were tons of Galaxy flights during the night.
So with the closure of the airbase and the much quieter planes the noise level has gone down drastically over the years. I am living right under the flight path from runway 18 for nearly 10 years and I never (really never) have woken up because of an departing aircraft. Neither have my kids.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 25):
BA manage to be one of Europes largest cargo airlines without a single cargo plane at Heathrow.

BA doesn't fly half of LH's volume, and they have to run a split operation with freight at STN (through GSS) because the LHR slots are far too valuable in the daytime to "waste" on cargo flights. There's no doubt they'd fly those 744Fs into LHR at night if they could, and probably would have a lot more than just three too.

On week-ends, BA has a handful of cargo flights ex LHR when slots are otherwise unused, but the flights are operated by EAT or DHL Air.

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 36):
Maybe a sweet deal like bringing in those shiny 777F of Aerologic and transfer some of the 11s to LEJ.

If DHL had wanted to bring in MD11s in LEJ, they would have bought MD11s...

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
More than enough time to land in HHN and truck the cargo to FRA.

Sometimes 6 hours isn't enough to move cargo from one plane to another at the same airport!
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:52 pm

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 36):
But that won´t ever happen!

True. But that would be far more reasonable to have more slots. Zero is silly.

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 36):
Strike two has been called and now it is very likely that the decision of The State of Hesse Administrative Court will be confirmed by the Surpreme Administrative Court in Leipzig.
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 38):
BA doesn't fly half of LH's volume, and they have to run a split operation with freight at STN (through GSS) because the LHR slots are far too valuable in the daytime to "waste" on cargo flights. There's no doubt they'd fly those 744Fs into LHR at night if they could, and probably would have a lot more than just three too.

If BA had those flights, combined with a few more PAX nightime flights, they would have a far larger and more profitable cargo operation.

LH cargo will survive without night ops. It will just shrink proportionately to the competition. I'm not saying LH cargo won't grow... It will. Everyone else will grow faster.

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wilco737
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:51 am

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 36):
Maybe they can work something out, that will satisfiy both sides. Maybe a sweet deal like bringing in those shiny 777F of Aerologic and transfer some of the 11s to LEJ. Of course that would mean to re-schedule the flights ex LEJ. But maybe it is an option to keep at least a couple of the nighttime slots alive.
This is the time when the law departement as well as upper mangement of LH can really earn their money.

LH has a Plan how to react to that already and the legal department of LH isn't bad, so something will happen.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
LH cargo will survive without night ops. It will just shrink proportionately to the competition. I'm not saying LH cargo won't grow... It will. Everyone else will grow faster.

Yes, they have to shrink as many rotations start at night in FRA and you cannot just let them depart 3 hours later then the flight is affected by some other night curfew or slot restrictions. Especially in India and China you cannot simply say: "We fly 3 hours later to your airport." It is pretty difficult to change that on that short notice.

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PanHAM
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting frat (Reply 37):
The question is: How many people are against those night flights when on the other hands, jobs would be lost at FRA.
Not sure, how old you are. But I remember the times very well when Rhein Main Airbase was in use and there were tons of Galaxy flights during the night.

It is a minority. All polls come to the same conclusion. The acceptance of the airport as a source of employement is high and night operations are seen as a necessity. There are a few people who complain, many of them are elderly and have the time to get up at night so they can hear that flight and complain. In my place there is one guy who generates automatically several hundred thousand complains about noise per year.

It also comes clear from today's media that the judge could have just done nothingl, let the cases rest until the supreme court .in Leipzig issued his ruling. This seems to be a one-sided, a biased decision which a judge should not do.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
LH cargo will survive without night ops. It will just shrink proportionately to the competition.

Unfortunately this is a likely option. A large number of logistic chains will no longer work without the connctivity. They will shift some operations to LEJ and maybe CGN gets a LH cargo station again, slots are available there but overall the damages has been done to FRA as a major cargo center. Keeping the status as #7 in the world will be difficult.

It comes back to the point, a few people spoil a successful venture that was build up by many dedicated professionals over five decades.
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r2rho
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:07 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):

LH is a combination carrier and the "combination" together with the connectivity makes them unique and superior over their competition. This is at stake now and that is the real problem.

Indeed that is the key issue that most ignore, LH Cargo is not FX and cannot simply relocate to another place, because LH airline and LH Cargo are interdependent.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
LH cargo will survive without night ops. It will just shrink proportionately to the competition.

Unfortunately this is a likely option. A large number of logistic chains will no longer work without the connctivity. They will shift some operations to LEJ and maybe CGN gets a LH cargo station again, slots are available there but overall the damages has been done to FRA as a major cargo center.

That seems the likely outcome. If LH Cargo loses FRA, it will not be the end of the company, but it will be the end of its business model as it exists today. LH Cargo won't disappear but will have to shrink and rethink its business model - decoupled from LH airline operations - at the new location in order to remain viable (if that is possible). And FRA will have become less of a gateway and suffer accordingly.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:46 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 40):
LH has a Plan how to react to that already and the legal department of LH isn't bad, so something will happen.

They shoul do that. There was absolutely no reason, except bias, for the Hesse court in Kassel to act at this time. They had the cases pending the Leipzig suroeme court ruling.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 42):
That seems the likely outcome. If LH Cargo loses FRA, it will not be the end of the company, but it will be the end of its business model as it exists today

At least that business model will shrink. LH might retire some of the MD11s when they cannot fill them because freight is routed thorugh different gateways. The real problem is, what will the big freight forwarders like Schenker, K&N Panalpina etc do, they all invested at FRA with huge terminals at Cargo City South and are now faced with the problem that some of their consolidations get a 5 am departure next day at the earliest.

It is cute to follow the discussions and articles in the media where "experts" say that the night flights could easily get a slot during the day. Sure, but the cargo is ready late in the evening and one should tell these people what a cut-off time is.

If that ruling is not reversed, and if it takes a new law passed in berlin, FRA will lose its position under the top 10 world wide and Germany will suffer as a dependebale location to do business.

Another idiocy is that flights arriving from the Far East or North America before their scheduled eta around 5 am now have to circle until 5 am

At least the Supreme administrative court in Leipzig ruled in favor of BER today, denying closure between 10 pm an 6 am.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
At least the Supreme administrative court in Leipzig ruled in favor of BER today, denying closure between 10 pm an 6 am.

In some newspaper I saw a report that the judges commented also on the comparison between BER and FRA.
They said that BER has not the importance of FRA, thus I'm somehow optimistic for the upcoming decision of the supreme court with regards to FRA.
 
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:33 pm

Yes, BER can live with the 2400 to 0500 curfew, they don't need freighters there, whatever is produced by express/integrators can go by sprinter vans to LEJ. Remarkable is, that, like DUS, ops until midnight are allowed and FRA should be closed between 11pm and midnight.

This is difficult to understand even when the zoning says that delayed flight can land as well as take-off..

At the end of the day only a change of the applicable §§ in the German aviation law can solve this and that is up to the Federal government They have to wait for the suprme court ruling now but then it is time to do the homework. They don't have to worry about re-election anyhow.
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:36 am

I agree with robffm2's post, we can just hope that the people in Leipzig don't are so shortsighted (Brett vor dem Kopf) like the once in Kassel. No wonder the economy here in Asia is much faster growing (in general) without the involvement of so many politicians (also in general) who dont have a clue, just counting the votes. Hope FRA will get the approval like BER did and LH can go ahead and helpt to safe thousands of jobs.
 
keuleatr72
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:10 am

Quoting frat (Reply 37):

I am 32 and I remember the military flights very well. (I even skipped school once and made a 250km ride by train just to watch them from the old viewing area on T1 - I was 10 and got "a little bit in trouble" when I got home.)
I agree with you, things have changed over the past two decades. Planes like the TU134/154, Boeing 727-200, 737-200, Boeing 747-200, the DC-9 family up to the -50, L1011 and DC10 are long gone. The USAF shifted a majority of their operations to Ramstein. Although the overall noise emitted by engines have gone down significantly, the numbers in flights have risen on the other hand. Take a look how many flights operated twenty years ago and compare it to the numbers today. A good example is CGN. The peak traffic was handled during nighttime. That changed, when 4U appeared, chose CGN as their Homebase and due to the massive expansion of AB. Now the communities surrounding CGN have a "more constant noise level throughout the day".

And regarding the jobs:
The people who want some regulation for nighttime flights recognise very well the importance of "their" airport around the corner as a contributor to the local economy. In CGN they do. Many said that it was a good move that FX chose CGN. But they stressed, that FX should use the 777F for nighttime operations instead of the loud MD11.

The communities around FRA agreed to the expansion of the airport with the fourth runway and the capacity increase - which would create aditional jobs. In return they just wanted six hours between 11pm and 5 am where they could have some good nighttime rest. They are willing to accept more flights! Exactly 600 flights more per day.

One question. If the Surpreme Administrative Court denies nighttime operations in FRA, could we see QF move to the new Airport in Berlin when it becomes operational in summer 2012? There they could operate during the night and would have fellow Oneworld Partner AB as a feeder. For now they have to re-schedule the QF 006 FRA-SIN-SYD as it is now scheduled for depature at 11.55pm. Or could QF use the oppurtunity and kiss Germany goodbye as it was always rumored that this flight is on "life support"? High loads but low yiedls.

This bloody mess could have been prevented years ago!
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Burkhard
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:46 am

Any link to the exact details of this? With two completele independant start pathes, I always expected things like closing 7C departures from 21:30 to 3:30 and 18 departures from 00:30 to 6:30, so an effictive 3 hour curfew to be possible -. with 6 hours rest for everybody.
 
fraT
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RE: Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:06 pm

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 47):
The communities around FRA agreed to the expansion of the airport with the fourth runway and the capacity increase - which would create aditional jobs. In return they just wanted six hours between 11pm and 5 am where they could have some good nighttime rest. They are willing to accept more flights! Exactly 600 flights more per day.

Again, I am living approx 12 km south of FRA directly under the runway 18 flightpath. I never woke up beacause of the QF or any other carrier departure. And we do not have those nice noise absorbing windows, which FRAPORT pays for in the surrounding communities.
I agree that people living in Flörsheim or Zeppelinheim are affected a lot more, but there are a lot of people protesting who moved their in recent years with the night ops already in place. So they benefited of the lower prices for their ground/houses. Same stuff as in BER.

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