audidudi
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Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Does anyone know which two Frontier Airlines A318s were scrapped, where they were scrapped and are there any photos of the scrapping in progress? Airfleets.net says N806FR and N808FR were the two and Planespotters.net says N808FR and N809FR.
Thanks!

[Edited 2011-10-11 10:12:08]
 
n471wn
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:31 pm

This has been discussed previously but here is the latest on this needless waste:

Scrapped at GWO

N806FR
N807FR
N808FR
N809FR

Scrapped at RFD

N810FR
N812FR


These were all new a/c and sadly the word was they could not be sold. But I do hope someone in the leasing company who ordered these and leased them to Frontier was fired.......this is an economic waste as these a/c should never have been built
 
KPDX
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:57 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_imfKP6WfJc

Sad end for these young birds. Amazing to think when I flew 810 in 2007, it was brand new.  
View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
 
CPHFF
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:02 pm

Is this for real?

Are we scrapping 4-year old Aircraft?????? What's wrong with this world????

PL
:D Never underestimate the power of ignorance
 
trigged
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:08 pm

Sad Day---New Airbus 318 Being Scrapped! (by N471WN Aug 25 2009 in Civil Aviation)
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 3):
Are we scrapping 4-year old Aircraft?????? What's wrong with this world????

as an aircraft 3 legged dogs have higher resale value than the A318.
318 parts however work on the larger models and thus the parts value is very high.

Expect any 318 or 736 leaving a fleet to become parts as soon as the ink dries on the sale contract.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
But I do hope someone in the leasing company who ordered these and leased them to Frontier was fired

Really? I am currentely in a hotel room because someone will be fired Tomorrow. Can you give him a new job? Can you explain his children why he is at home from now on every day? Then I would be more careful with such wishes.
 
bennett123
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:15 pm

I accept your point.

However, I do agree that someone who screws up on a major scale should not just walk away from it.
 
amccann
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 3):
Are we scrapping 4-year old Aircraft?????? What's wrong with this world????

I am not accusing anyone on this thread of hypocrisy, but it seems as is the civil aviation world cries bloody marry when a plane is scrapped young and cries bloody marry when an aircraft is inefficient (A318 burns nearly the same amount of fuel as the A319 while carrying a smaller payload). The scrapping of A318s is obviously very sad, but when choosing the lesser of two evils it appears a scrapped young aircraft is less evil.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:31 pm

Scapping involves recycling/selling many if not most of the useful parts on the aircraft. If the plane can't make money (thanks to higher fuel costs and same burn as a 319), it get scrapped. Those parts will live on for a long time in tons of other 319's and 320's.

I doubt the leasing company fired anyone due to this deal.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):

I doubt the leasing company fired anyone due to this deal.

somewhere I read that an A320 is worth more as parts at delivery, the only reason they are not being scrapped is the profit of operating them is of course much higher than parting your brand new plane. Certainly for an A318 where the leasing company likely made good profit from the lease, and now is going to make good profit on the sale of the frame, why would you fire anyone? Its not like the company bought the 318's on speculation that it would command above normal lease rates for the next 30 years.

I will expect a glut of 737 and A32x frames of all ages being scrapped if Boeing and Airbus ever get thier production rates high enough to meet demand. Spare parts are very expensive and if you are getting newer cheaper to operate frames just as fast as you want them...
 
SPREE34
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 1):
But I do hope someone in the leasing company who ordered these and leased them to Frontier was fired...

Why? If Frontier wanted 318s, they were going to lease them from somewhere.

This is illogical.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:10 am

That is terrible to hear - all the animals on those planes reincarnated on A320s, E190s etc right?

They couldn't sell them to an airline that currently uses them for dirt cheap?
 
sw733
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 13):

They couldn't sell them to an airline that currently uses them for dirt cheap?

Why sell the whole aircraft for "dirt cheap" when you can sell the parts for decent money...? Or use them yourself for savings versus brand new parts.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:20 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 13):
They couldn't sell them to an airline that currently uses them for dirt cheap?

Nobody wants them. Just like the 737-600's, too heavy for payload, not efficient, and almost impossible to make money with, especially with today's fuel prices.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
dashman
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:39 am

Jeepers they are just pieces of machinery not someone's cute cocker spaniel. Probably will not have any significant historical standing so it seems like a sound economical decision.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:20 am

The error was probably developing the A318 in the first place, I bet Pratt wish they hadn't bothered...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
Scapping involves recycling/selling many if not most of the useful parts on the aircraft. If the plane can't make money (thanks to higher fuel costs and same burn as a 319), it get scrapped. Those parts will live on for a long time in tons of other 319's and 320's.

I think the reaction is to the word 'scrapped', this conjures up an image of a 4 year old airliner crushed into a little cube of metal. However the reality is that these aircraft did not work out and were not wanted by any airline, so to turn a profit the leasing company parted them out.

The term scrapped is not really correct for this process.

[Edited 2011-10-12 01:33:33]
 
bennett123
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:13 am

Scraping is just what you do with what is left after parting out is complete.
 
MarcoT
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:22 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 17):
The error was probably developing the A318 in the first place, I bet Pratt wish they hadn't bothered...

If anything is the other way round: had Pratt not horribly botched the PW6000 maybe the A318 would have had a fighting chance...
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting dashman (Reply 15):
Jeepers they are just pieces of machinery not someone's cute cocker spaniel

It was someone's Elk (802), Rabbit (803), fox cubs (804)
 
DashTrash
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:52 am

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 20):
If anything is the other way round: had Pratt not horribly botched the PW6000 maybe the A318 would have had a fighting chance...

Doubt it. The A318 is still too small for the same fuel burn and similar weight as the 319. On the same token, I'd bet you large A319 operators wish they had bought 320s instead except for airports that need the short field performance it offers. Economics are everything in this day an age. The 318 and 737-600 face the same issues that the CRJ 50 and ERJ's face. As fuel prices rise smaller derivatives of larger aircraft will fall out of favor as well (think CRJ-700, ERJ-170, A319, 737-700).

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):

It was someone's Elk (802), Rabbit (803), fox cubs (804)

You're kidding right? If I paint a dolphin on the side of my washing machine and then take it to the dump, I'm still ONLY throwing away a freakin' washing machine. An airplane is a piece of machinery. Eventually it will wear out or become obsolete and be disposed of. I'll be the first to agree that some airplanes have personalities, but anything with turbofans under the wings, screens in the cockpit and single axle mains is just another airplane...
 
a380900
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:09 pm

So where are the remaining A318s now? (if there are any)
 
EDTrauma
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting a380900 (Reply 22):
So where are the remaining A318s now? (if there are any)

According to Planespotters.Net:

Air France (18), Avianca (15), British Airways (2), Frontier (4), LAN (10), RAK Airways (1), TAROM (4)
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:29 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 21):
You're kidding right? If I paint a dolphin on the side of my washing machine and then take it to the dump, I'm still ONLY throwing away a freakin' washing machine. An airplane is a piece of machinery. Eventually it will wear out or become obsolete and be disposed of. I'll be the first to agree that some airplanes have personalities, but anything with turbofans under the wings, screens in the cockpit and single axle mains is just another airplane...

I think they've dedicated some of their aircraft/tails to certain employees or people for various reasons.
 
fpetrutiu
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 19):
If anything is the other way round: had Pratt not horribly botched the PW6000 maybe the A318 would have had a fighting chance...

No way. It will still be too heavy. That aircraft would have been better off in the shredder before the first parts for it would have been built.

Quoting EDTrauma (Reply 23):
TAROM (4)

They are looking at placing an order for some aircraft early next year. I am pretty sure they will get replaced with B737's as the rest of their fleet are 737's
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
shankly
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
The error was probably developing the A318 in the first place, I bet Pratt wish they hadn't bothered...

...but I bet BA are glad they did
L1011 - P F M
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting shankly (Reply 26):

...but I bet BA are glad they did

For 2 A318's???? The B737-700ER could do the job without the fuel stop in Ireland...
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
shankly
Posts: 1203
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 27):
For 2 A318's???? The B737-700ER could do the job without the fuel stop in Ireland...

A 737-700ER could depart LCY with a full load and make it to NYC? You'd better give BA a call, they've dropped a fleet selection clanger...

....it wouldn't even make it over the river Thames
L1011 - P F M
 
golftango
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:52 pm

Here you go!

http://www.airport-data.com/images/airports/small/020/020933.jpg
 
col
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:55 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 27):
For 2 A318's????

BA ordered many more, but I think they switched to 319/320 after PW screwed the engine up.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
It was someone's Elk (802), Rabbit (803), fox cubs (804)

Brilliant, that is one of the best replies I have seen, shame some people did not see the funny side.
 
SCL767
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting EDTrauma (Reply 23):
LAN (10)

LAN is currently in the process of phasing out the A-318s from its fleet and will no longer operate the A-318 a/c by 2013.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:06 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 27):
The B737-700ER could do the job without the fuel stop in Ireland...

Maybe it could, however the stop in Ireland isn't just for fuel......while aircraft is being refuelled the up to 32 pax are being processed through the US CBP facility there. So on arrival those pax are treated as domestic arrivals and walk right from the jetway to the taxi rank without any checks. This is a selling point of the LCY-SNN-JFK service.
 
aamd11
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting col (Reply 30):
BA ordered many more, but I think they switched to 319/320 after PW screwed the engine up.

I think BA's A321 were the aircraft ordered in place of the A318s... I'm sure I remember reading many years ago the A321s were being taken in place of A318s. I think it was 10 A321s for the 12 A318s or something along those lines. If I'm not mistaken, BA originally had a fairly big order of A318s (20+ maybe?) to use at the regional airports back in the day... then they scaled back at the regional airports, cutting the order back to 12 before switching to A321s for busier routes from LHR.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:23 pm

I think BA took the opportunity caused by the PW screw up to upscale their A318s into something more economic! Indeed, they are probably quite glad PW screwed up, they no doubt got compensation for this, plus their now not stuck with a sizeable A318 fleet...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
trigged
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting golftango (Reply 29):
Here you go!

Thanks for the photo!

Question: Why are photos of aircraft at GWO getting scrapped so scarce? I am assuming that there is some sort of photography prohibition at the airport, right? We see tons of photos at MHV and other locations, but virtually nothing at GWO.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:28 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 24):

I think they've dedicated some of their aircraft/tails to certain employees or people for various reasons.

Didn't know that. Hopefully they'll get a new frame then.

Quoting shankly (Reply 28):
....it wouldn't even make it over the river Thames

It might, but it would still be in ground effect.... 
 
n471wn
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
Certainly for an A318 where the leasing company likely made good profit from the lease, and now is going to make good profit on the sale of the frame, why would you fire anyone

So are you saying the leasing company bought these a/c with the knowledege that they would have such a short service life and be scrapped and that they made a profit at the end of the day? I doubt this very much. I can assure you if that were true then they would buy more a/c to scrap......no someone made a mistake......

Quoting trigged (Reply 35):
I am assuming that there is some sort of photography prohibition at the airport, right?

No photograhy restriction at all but tough to get shots unless from the air.....you can walk the fence line and I have done so many times---it is not like the armed thugs that run Marana
 
bennett123
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:54 pm

My understanding is that aircraft generally have a short stay at Greenwood.
 
Newark727
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:25 pm

Are Frontier planning to scrap the rest of their A318s too? They still have some in service- I saw 803 just a couple days ago.
 
trigged
Posts: 231
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 38):

My understanding is that aircraft generally have a short stay at Greenwood.

There are some shots at Greenwood from a while back, but it seems as though the newer stuff is nonexistent. What is the average time an aircraft sits on the ground there from when it lands to final scrapping?
 
CRJ900
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:41 pm

It appears that only Frontier A318s are being scrapped... could it be that they configured them "wrong" - 114 economy seats with PTV, giving high CASM?

Air France now has 131 seats in their A318, with flexible C/Y configs - this gives a decent CASM, I assume?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
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mariner
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 41):
It appears that only Frontier A318s are being scrapped... could it be that they configured them "wrong" - 114 economy seats with PTV, giving high CASM?

Whoa - Frontier has 120 seats in their A318's - 96 regular economy and 24 Stretch.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Fro.../Frontier_Airlines_Airbus_A318.php

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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asqx
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 41):
It appears that only Frontier A318s are being scrapped... could it be that they configured them "wrong" - 114 economy seats with PTV, giving high CASM?


Whoa - Frontier has 120 seats in their A318's - 96 regular economy and 24 Stretch.

Now they have 120 seats, but when delivered they were all 114 in coach, three rows short of the A319s which sat 132 at the time. It led to some interesting passenger counts when flight attendants would count empties and report "128 with 4 open seats" when they forgot they were on the short bus that only sat 114. Made for a few laughs at times when I was working as load planner and had to confirm the onboard counts before door close.
 
n471wn
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting asqx (Reply 43):
I was working as load planner and had to confirm the onboard counts before door close.

What do Frontier employees think about the premature demise of the A-318?
 
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mariner
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting asqx (Reply 43):
Now they have 120 seats, but when delivered they were all 114 in coach, three rows short of the A319s which sat 132 at the time.

I'm aware of that, but since we are discussing the A318's now - when they are leaving the fleet - accuracy in all things.

The whole point of Frontier getting the aircraft was that they had fewer seats than the A319, to be used for thinner routes.

It should be remembered that when Frontier ordered the aircraft, oil was at $20-$25 a barrel, not the $85 a barrel it is now. And there's a major part of the problem right there. Even the A319 is less attractive now.

It should also be remembered that Frontier got them at the launch customer discount (because most other airlines were canceling) which was a foundation of the very happy relationship between Frontier and Airbus.  

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-12 13:09:52]

[Edited 2011-10-12 13:32:25]
aeternum nauta
 
wn700driver
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6):

Really? I am currentely in a hotel room because someone will be fired Tomorrow. Can you give him a new job? Can you explain his children why he is at home from now on every day? Then I would be more careful with such wishes.

Yuk. That actually reminds me of a few horrible experiences of my own.

Anyway, having had the pleasure of riding most of those scrapped planes, I am a little saddened by this, but I know it wouldn't have likely happened if F9 wasn't on the ropes. Inefficient as it may have been, a 318 already in the fleet is almost always better than straight up ordering a new plane.

Quoting amccann (Reply 8):
, but it seems as is the civil aviation world cries bloody marry when a plane is scrapped young and cries bloody marry when an aircraft is inefficient (A318 burns nearly the same amount of fuel as the A319 while carrying a smaller payload). The scrapping of A318s is obviously very sad, but when choosing the lesser of two evils it appears a scrapped young aircraft is less evil.

FWIW, I for one have never advocated early scrapping. In fact, I thought that NWA could have gotten at least another half decade out of their DC-10-30s & 40s, instead of replacing them with A333s that they in no way could afford. And then lay those new planes out in lower density, no less... Good thing for DL coming along to the rescue...

But for F9, I can see how cutting up a 318 and axing a route or frequency is a decision that would have made immediate sense. This may come back to haunt them if they end up needing the capacity later (which frankly I hope they will anyway!), and have to order new planes to replace... their new planes!
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
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mariner
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 46):
This may come back to haunt them if they end up needing the capacity later (which frankly I hope they will anyway!), and have to order new planes to replace... their new planes!

Frontier already has new planes on order.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
bennett123
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:12 pm

What are they buying?.
 
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mariner
Posts: 18416
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RE: Scrapped Frontier Airlines A318s

Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:18 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 48):
What are they buying?.

Take your pick:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...rways-for-80-a320neo-aircraft.html

"Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (RJET) agreed to buy 80 of Airbus SAS’s upgraded narrowbody jets for its Frontier Airlines unit, half of them smaller models that compete with Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B)’s new CSeries."

mariner
aeternum nauta

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