mffoda
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Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:10 pm

WOW!!!

PW and Rolls Royce Announce New Partnership on Next Generation Engines...

Quote:

"Under the arrangements, Pratt & Whitney will purchase Rolls Royce share of IAE for $1.5 billion, plus an agreed by the hour payment for the next 15 years for the current installed fleet. PW may, in turn, offer a portion of these shares to MTU and JAEC, other IAE partners."

http://airinsight.com/2011/10/12/pw-...ership-on-next-generation-engines/

This is an incredible announcement! Looks like P&W really have something in the GTF!
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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Polot
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting mffoda (Thread starter):
RR & PW Get Married!

A bit extreme to say that, this is no where close to a marriage.
 
planesailing
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):
A bit extreme to say that, this is no where close to a marriage.

Did you read the article though?

More information is detailed in there regarding a mid sized engine joint venture between the two companies.

The selected quote actually reads more as a divorce!
 
mffoda
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):

Quoting mffoda (Thread starter):
RR & PW Get Married!

A bit extreme to say that, this is no where close to a marriage.

This is Huge... It means that Pratt / RR will most likely be together on the next NB A/C as well as other GTF projects... Which puts RR back in the hunt in the NB market!

"What’s stunning in the new partnership RR and PW announced to develop engines in the 120-230 seat market and to focus on Geared Turbo Fan technology." (from Leeham)
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
BMI727
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 3):
"What’s stunning in the new partnership RR and PW announced to develop engines in the 120-230 seat market and to focus on Geared Turbo Fan technology." (from Leeham)

Sounds like the reality that open rotors will not be arriving anytime soon has sunk in. It seems, based on what's written in the OP's article, that RR has seen that open rotor won't likely make it onto the next generation of narrowbodies and consequently decided to put their eggs in the GTF basket.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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lightsaber
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 3):
"What’s stunning in the new partnership RR and PW announced to develop engines in the 120-230 seat market and to focus on Geared Turbo Fan technology." (from Leeham)

What shocked me:Rolls Royce will also invest in the Pure Power 1100G-JM engine as a part of this transaction.

While Pratt is giving up a lot, they are also bringing in the RR sales team. I think everyone will gain. It will be a question of who has the best 'return on investment.'

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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Polot
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 2):

Did you read the article though?

More information is detailed in there regarding a mid sized engine joint venture between the two companies.

The selected quote actually reads more as a divorce!

Yes I did (and yes, I agree it was a strange part of the article to quote). But I still think the thread title is a little extreme. Its a big deal, but PW and RR already have a JV together, and they are dissolving it (sort of)....and forming a new one, which also may include the other players in the IAE partnership. It may move the two closer together, but the title makes it sound like PW and RR are merging, which they are nowhere close to doing. It is basically reaffirmation of the status quo.

The cynic inside me wants to know why PW feels the need to work with RR if the GTF is going great though...

[Edited 2011-10-12 15:39:25]
 
mffoda
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
What shocked me:Rolls Royce will also invest in the Pure Power 1100G-JM engine as a part of this transaction.

While Pratt is giving up a lot, they are also bringing in the RR sales team. I think everyone will gain. It will be a question of who has the best 'return on investment.'

Lightsaber

I agree...

But you have to admit this is a really big deal for all involved!... Yes?   
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
mffoda
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 6):
Yes I did (and yes, I agree it was a strange part of the article to quote).

Are you calling me strange?   

Actually, I got a little excited by the news, and wanted to bring it to light.

On the other hand, I try to read the the article before I comment about on a-net... 
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
SpruceMoose
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:19 pm

So... PW is buying out RR's share of IAE, and then they're turning around and forming a new JV for pretty much the same market segment? Do I have that right? Am I missing something?

What's the motivation for this?

-SpruceMoose
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PM
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:29 am

Well, I didn't see that coming!  

But this is potentially huge. As big as (or bigger than?) the creation of the GE-PW Engine Alliance. It sets the stage for a two-way battle between GE/Snecma and PW/RR for decades to come.

Quoting SpruceMoose (Reply 9):
So... PW is buying out RR's share of IAE, and then they're turning around and forming a new JV for pretty much the same market segment? Do I have that right? Am I missing something?

I know what you mean.

My guess is that the legal relationship between the four partners in IAE (remember, it's not just PW and RR) means that if PW and RR want to do a 50:50 thing, it'll have to be a new entity.
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:10 am

This effectively means it is now RR/Pratt vs GE/Snecma in the small engine market.

I think it shows several things:

1. Pratt going it alone with the GTF show that the rules in the IAE was not allowing the dynamics they needed for competing with GE/Snecma neither in the VF2500 (PIPs were slow in coming) nor the next thing the GTF (Pratt alone) nor the after GTF thing the open rotor (RR alone). Effectively IAE is now canned and a new partnership will replace it, dynamic enough to compete effectively with GE/Snecma.

2. The top brass of Pratt and RR both realized that going it alone vs GE/Snecma was a lose-lose situation so something had to be done, something smarter structured then IAE. A and B also had told them they did not really like this going alone, 3 engine choices for A/C is one to many going forward. After Pratt not being let in on the MAX the message from A and B was "get your act sorted and return as one and you will have a share beside GE/Snecma for sure, we don't like exclusive engine deals in the long run (read B being frustrated with GEs misses recently)"

3. This is a huge endorsement of the GTF (and this is what is on the joint sales campaign right now therefore no big talk of OR for now, get all your arrows on todays target) but also a realization from Pratt they are as naked as RR on GTF if GE/Snecma convinces A and B the NSA (which is now late 2020 as both have neoed) should be OR.

Great stuff, the world is not simplified below 230 seats, now what happens above? Makes not sense Pratt goes alone there as well with the GTF and a certain son of rays has said "the gearbox does not scale quite so well on really high power", I expect something there as well, but oh well this is for tomorrow  Wow!       .



[Edited 2011-10-12 18:34:15]
Non French in France
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:27 am

Now a question after all this, what is a 1100G-JM and what aircraft does it target???
Non French in France
 
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lightsaber
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 7):
But you have to admit this is a really big deal for all involved!... Yes?

I believe it is. But:

Quoting PM (Reply 10):
Well, I didn't see that coming!

Nor I!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 11):
PIPs were slow in coming

That was the #1 structural problem with IAE. They didn't have a mechanism in place to fund and push forward technological improvements.

I'm still trying to digest this. So if my comments are brief... My rumor mill didn't give me a hint!

Lightsaber
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ferpe
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):
Now a question after all this, what is a 1100G-JM and what aircraft does it target???

Got it answered, it is the 320neo program.

Then it is clear, in short this means:

IAE is dead but resurfaces as the new IAE, no more, no less. The new IAE will have rules that makes the last 3 years check-mate not reappear. When the dust settles RR will have loost out on the non 320 GTF programs sold so far but who cares, this is peanuts compared to 320 and A and B NSAs.

This also spells harder competition for GR/Snecma going forward, expect their shares to fall a bit.

[Edited 2011-10-12 18:58:27]
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting mffoda (Thread starter):
Pratt & Whitney will purchase Rolls Royce share of IAE for $1.5 billion, plus an agreed by the hour payment for the next 15 years for the current installed fleet.
Quoting mffoda (Reply 3):
"What’s stunning in the new partnership RR and PW announced to develop engines in the 120-230 seat market and to focus on Geared Turbo Fan technology." (from Leeham)
Quoting SpruceMoose (Reply 9):
So... PW is buying out RR's share of IAE, and then they're turning around and forming a new JV for pretty much the same market segment? Do I have that right? Am I missing something?

It seems like PW is divorcing a woman (and paying her alimony!), then turning around and marrying the same woman again?  

Must be more to the story...
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:20 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
IAE is dead but resurfaces as the new IAE, no more, no less. The new IAE will have rules that makes the last 3 years check-mate not reappear. When the dust settles RR will have lost out on the non 320 GTF programs sold so far but who cares, this is peanuts compared to 320 and A and B NSAs.

Yep, so IAE dies and is reborn in the same day pretty neat trick, maybe they will name the new JV Phoenix?

RR remains on wing on A320NEO, Pratt buys a ticket to future OR on NSA and future airbus NB sounds like good business for both companies.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
Got it answered, it is the 320neo program.

So will this lead to any design changes / technology transfer for the A320 GTF or is the program too far advanced for that? If RR have the technology to improve the combuster which Lightsaber tells us is conservative this would presumably stick it to the MAX which has no GTF option.
BV
 
sunrisevalley
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:22 am

Does this JV clear the way for an engine option on the 737MAX ?
 
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Stitch
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:26 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 17):
Does this JV clear the way for an engine option on the 737MAX?

No. Boeing has signed a new exclusive contract with CFM.

For the NSA/797, however...
 
baroque
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
What shocked me:Rolls Royce will also invest in the Pure Power 1100G-JM engine as a part of this transaction.

While Pratt is giving up a lot, they are also bringing in the RR sales team. I think everyone will gain. It will be a question of who has the best 'return on investment.'

Well there is that dimension, but there is another one we discussed a while back - during Paris airshow "NEO flood" ???? - and that is production. Presumably IAE facilities would come in a bit handy for making GTFs at required rates and maybe a bit of capacity from RR as well.

Very interesting. Only disappointment is RR might stop trying to make a light small 3 spool engine and such an engine was going to be "interesting". Always hoped to see where a fanned RB199 development might go! Sigh, now it will lose a spool and gain a gearbox.

BTW, Lightsaber, is there any reason (apart from weight, er well and cost) not put a geared fan on a 3 spooler and get the stages even more optimised?

Oblique to topic. If RR are able to be this creative with company structures, maybe we might have to revise how much of a barrier partnership structures might be to swapping out the T900 for the TXWB on the A388/389.      
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting planesailing (Reply 2):
The selected quote actually reads more as a divorce!

My thought exactly!

Quoting planesailing (Reply 2):
Did you read the article though?

More information is detailed in there regarding a mid sized engine joint venture between the two companies.

True, the thread title makes much more sense after reading the whole article.

Quoting poLOT (Reply 6):
The cynic inside me wants to know why PW feels the need to work with RR if the GTF is going great though...

I'm so glad I'm not the only cynic around here.
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lightsaber
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
and that is production. Presumably IAE facilities would come in a bit handy for making GTFs at required rates and maybe a bit of capacity from RR as well.

I'll agree. I think Pratt could have produced the engines; bringing RR on board reduces risk and Pratt will tap into their technical expertise.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
BTW, Lightsaber, is there any reason (apart from weight, er well and cost) not put a geared fan on a 3 spooler and get the stages even more optimised?

It would take a higher thrust engine to 'make the room' to even do that. The gearbox would interfere with front bearing placement. So we're talking 70k+ thrust.

But there wouldn't be enough economic advantage. The triple spool fixes a few problems of a conventional double spool:
1. Allows the low compressor ("booster compressor") to operate at a far more optimal Mach number (RPM). The GTF does this as well, so this advantage disappears.
2. Allows the engine to balance itself at different thrust levels, in particular during climb where the forces on the fan reduce the low spool RPM. If anything, the larger fan that the GTF enables will make this worse on a twin spool GTF.
3. The turbine powering the low compressor is at an optimal Mach # (but the GTF does this almost as well)

The one thing the GTF does that the triple spool cannot do without the gearbox: The low turbine is at a much more optimal Mach # (RPM) and thus the component efficiency is higher.

While possible, I do not see a three shaft engine and the GTF. A combined GTF/triple spool would be an engine with 3 compressors and 3 turbines. The advantage of three compressors would be nice. I've proposed that the Trent XWB would benefit from having a one or two stage low compressor on the fan's shaft. With a GTF, that compressor would be far more effective and efficient. The main benefit would be how the compressor heats the air into the next compressor thus allow its compressor stages to be at a slightly more optimal Mach #.

The same would be true on the turbine side. After 2 turbine stages, it is advantageous to break up the turbine to multiple Mach #'s (RPM).

So there is an advantage to approaching an infinite number of spools. If one ignores cost, weight, space to package the bearings, and other practical details.

Lightsaber
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JoeCanuck
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:08 am

This is the quickest and easiest way for RR to regain a toehold in the NB market and can no doubt bring its considerable resources to adapting the GTF to larger engine sizes.

What Pratt gets out of this is one less competitor in future NB programs and an instant entry into the medium and large engine markets...with access to the considerable research RR has done.

I suspect Pratt saw that it will be quite busy enough dealing with the current commitments which would limit future research.

Some really great stuff is going to come out of this.
What the...?
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:57 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
So there is an advantage to approaching an infinite number of spools. If one ignores cost, weight, space to package the bearings, and other practical details.

Love it!
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packsonflight
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:51 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Some really great stuff is going to come out of this.

Probably this is just a simple insurance for both companys. If RR and PW goes head to head for the NB market there is always a risk of "winner takes all" But if they attack the next generation NB marked together, with the right product there is a good chance that they can get in a "CFM position"
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:05 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 24):
Probably this is just a simple insurance for both companys.

Agree, the stakes are getting very high for being left in the Pratt (on DA) or RR (SA) position, you are left out for 30-50 years. Better to get a more sure 50% - 35% but with a shared risk as well.
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LH452
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:30 am

My take on this is that RR is in dire need of cash.

LH452
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:34 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
It seems like PW is divorcing a woman (and paying her alimony!), then turning around and marrying the same woman again?

Must be more to the story...

Indeed, I see contradicting things going on here, we clearly don't know the full story...

- PW buys RR out of IAE, then resurrects IAE as a sort of "PW & Friends"
- GTF & LeapX have kicked RR out of the narrowbody market, but now PW apologizes and invites RR to join the party again
- RR was betting hard on OR even at the expense of missing out on the NEO, and now seems to be giving up on that too

Possible explanations:

- Particularly Airbus (as 737 is CFM-only) has made clear they'll accept only two engine options on narrowbodies, and told PW & RR to get their act together
- RR needs to get back into the narrowbody market in whatever way possible, and PW, despite the success of the GTF, may need RR resources to achieve the efficiency leap needed for post-NEO/MAX narrowbodies
- This effectively creates a GE/Snecma vs PW/RR competition in the future narrowbody market. In my understanding, changes to current engine programs are comparatively minor (IAE gets more agile and RR gets to help a little bit on NEO GTF)
- There may be more evolution potential in the GTF than we know, so RR has given up and decided to park OR for a while
- ...?
 
astuteman
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:47 am

Quoting LH452 (Reply 26):
My take on this is that RR is in dire need of cash.

Although this suggests otherwise..

http://www.rolls-royce.com/investors...10728_half_yearly_2011_results.jsp

I suspect more strategic drivers, such as these below, are more likely causes of the decision..

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
RR needs to get back into the narrowbody market in whatever way possible, and PW, despite the success of the GTF, may need RR resources to achieve the efficiency leap needed for post-NEO/MAX narrowbodies


Not to mention PW also needing RR's industrial resources just to meet demand...

Rgds
 
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Faro
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:35 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Sounds like the reality that open rotors will not be arriving anytime soon has sunk in. It seems, based on what's written in the OP's article, that RR has seen that open rotor won't likely make it onto the next generation of narrowbodies and consequently decided to put their eggs in the GTF basket.

Can we expect 3-spool GTF's in the not-too-distant future...

Faro
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BoeingVista
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:52 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 24):
Probably this is just a simple insurance for both companys. If RR and PW goes head to head for the NB market there is always a risk of "winner takes all" But if they attack the next generation NB marked together, with the right product there is a good chance that they can get in a "CFM position"

Well yes and no, they did go head to head winner takes all in the NB market, Pratt won and RR lost, there will probably not be another NB launched this decade

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
There may be more evolution potential in the GTF than we know, so RR has given up and decided to park OR for a while

There will be nothing to hang an OR off of for about 10 year but when there is Pratt will have a partnership without having done the R&D.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
Not to mention PW also needing RR's industrial resources just to meet demand...

Probably true

RR say that they are not parking any projects including the small 2 and 3 spool engine developments btw... at least thats todays answer.
BV
 
AirbusA6
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:01 am

Extraordinary, and a well kept secret!

RR have now done a massive u-turn, having fought against the GTF, and lost out badly, they are now back in the marketplace. I imagine RR Deutscheland is happy, as they are heavily involved in the V2500, and faced a slow decline. PW would have faced a massive challenge, replicating the RR production facilities. Airbus are probably happy too, as it reduces the risk for them, and could encourage customers to go for the GTF A320 rather than the CFM only 737.

I wonder how the workshare and profit percentages will be worked out, I presume RR be a junior partner to PW, seeing that the engine concept and initial orders are purely by PW? Maybe they will keep it 50/50, with PW leading the GTF, and RR leading UDF?

It creates an awkward boundary between PW GTF, e.g. on the C series, and PW/RR GTF on the A320, when stretched C150 could be a similar size to the A319.
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Flyglobal
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:10 am

About a year ago until some 6 months ago it was frequently reported (at least in German press) , that Pratt tried to work the GTF via the IAE consortium, but Rolls didn't allow it and wasn't accepting the GTF in the consortium. So Pratt went alone and managed to convince Airbus that they ar able to to it alone.
Now RR in my opinion was obviously understanding that they lost out completely after Boeing changed their mind to re-engine and go CFM only again, so they ventured their options. At the same time Pratt saw the opportunity to get risk sharing partners and also some of RR technology to integrate easier then to do all (GTF and updating core technology) themselves.

Then I believe that RR knocking the door, but Pratt still pissed about RRs previous behavior now figured and decided: OK lets do a new Joint venture, but the conditions should avoid 'technology blocking' by one of the partners as happened in the IAE. So they figured to setup something new.
At the end an IAE Gen 2 will be created, with probably the same partners and probably even the IAE Gen 2 can buy the IAE Gen 1 later. I think Pratt made a good deal here.

regards

Flyglobal
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:46 am

A very nice take on this news, Guy Norris at AW:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

" In the relatively predictable world of aero engines there are few moments of genuine jaw-dropping shock. Yet for those of us who monitor such things, the date of Oct 12 could well become as significant as knowing where you were when, say, a President was shot or a space shuttle crashed. That’s not to say the news of Rolls and Pratt tying the knot on a new civil engine partnership itself was in anyway bad – just astonishingly unexpected. "
Non French in France
 
parapente
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:52 am

Like everybody else - did not see this coming.However for once it seems that top management have swallowed their short term pride for a (very) long term deal.And over that long term it makes sense.

There is little doubt in my mind that RR blinked first - but is of no matter as both have come to the party.Only when all the details on %share are known will it become clear who was/is in the driving seat.

But I can see the sense in this across many factors.

Fan Blades.
The 2 companies have been fighting in court over this but now it is past and more importantly the technology has moved on.There was a recent major article from RR on how they are now moving to carbon blades and casings in future. "Hollow Titanium" blades are now "the past".The XWB fan will be the last . The same must be true of P&W. The competition is now moving to 3D carbon blades and "cold curing" is round the corner.It makes sense (I think) for these 2 giants to work together on this area.
Also note that if OR was ever to happen you want the lowest possible mass on your blades to minimise blade out issues. Another reason for leaving Titanium behind now.

Triple Spool.(history?)
Like others it has been interesting to watch the concept development of an RB199 (contra rotating) size core perhaps being developed for smaller engines.However RR has been mulling this for a long while (too long?).When one looks at mid sized engines. (IAE 2500/CFM/Leap-X and Pure power.The answer has always been twin spool.It is (I believe) generally accepted that the smaller the core the harder (mechanical drag?) to reap the efficiencies of tripple spool. Perhaps now is the time to accept this (from the RR perspective).

Gearboxes.
It can't have been lost on OR watchers that Safran were tasked to look at a non geared OR concept.Whilst RR was researching a geared version.What is the difference between a geared core for OR and one for GTF.I would say absolutly nothing! So here they can pool their knowledge.

Selling IAE.

As stated at present the position is clouded by having 4 partners and thus lower shares.P&W have often ststed that 35% is too low for them. This answers the issue and allows a new 2 partner arrangement. It maybe that RR will have to accept no increase in share (35%) but P&W will get the larger share they want.
IAE only has one long term potental future.That is the possible Brazilian medium military transport aircraft (that may or maynot happen). Outside this there cannot possibly be any new orders that I can think of. RR will keep their share of mantainance work - just via a different profit route. Who is to say that the $1.5 billion IAE "buyout" wont be equally matched (or more) by RR's stated investment in Purepower? There may be no additional cash at all.Just a reallocation that suits both parties!

Core.

Not wishing to "knock" P&W but their track record of recent has not been great. RR on the other hand has just built the T1000 and then moved straight on to the TXWB. Their core knowledge must be "right up there" as we speak.This is another place where technology transfer can take place I feel that will be of mutual benefit.

Long term future.

RR is sitting pretty right now with the T1000 and the TXWB. It will even work on a revamped 777-"250". But further down the line,geared fans will most likley be the answer for further gains.OR certainly is not the answer for long/ultra long routes due to lower cruising speeds - unless the price of oil goes bezerk.So it does protect them in the extreme long term and give P&W a way in to the larger engine market I feel.
 
ferpe
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Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:56 am

Reading the press releases and some commentary I think one can glean one more thing from this:


0. PW and RR of course know B and A inside out given they are tied 100% together in their fortunes. Thus they know much more then we and any journo know what is in the pipeline at the framers, therefore:

1. RR have realized that the first NSA (from B) after the re-engine craze will be a TF one, effectively the NSA that B was working on until the AA deal. Thus they where in dire straits with the OR. PW on the other hand felt snubbed by the continuation of the CFM lock-out of the MAX, they needed more weight for the NSA, B told them RR have done a nice job recently on the 787 program, "talk to them".

2. PW on their side realized that the second NSA project (now from A) would very likely be an OR concept, then they would be in dire straits. A told them "talk to RR about it".


So with both realizing they where very incomplete vs the CFM behemoth they realized it was time to do IAE gen2 and those talks were helped by RR having changed the guy who played high stakes and lost recently, the RR CEO.


What we can glean from this is that B will lead with a classical NSA followed by an OR one from A.

Interesting times ahead     .



[Edited 2011-10-13 04:23:54]
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r2rho
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Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:26 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 31):

I wonder how the workshare and profit percentages will be worked out, I presume RR be a junior partner to PW, seeing that the engine concept and initial orders are purely by PW? Maybe they will keep it 50/50, with PW leading the GTF, and RR leading UDF?

It creates an awkward boundary between PW GTF, e.g. on the C series, and PW/RR GTF on the A320,

My understanding of this deal is that there is no fundamental change to current engine programs. The NEO GTF will still be an all-PW GTF. But RR will help out as a junior partner, likely with industrial resources & support network.

The new JV will be to develop, produce and support the future narrowbody engine (for A30X and NSA), and both will have equal shares in it. That can mean 50-50 or 40-40 with 10% for MTU & JAEC, for instance.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 32):
At the end an IAE Gen 2 will be created, with probably the same partners and probably even the IAE Gen 2 can buy the IAE Gen 1 later.

Makes sense, particularly from a customer support, logistics & maintenance point of view.
 
tcasalert
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Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:37 am

RR already have some sort of relationship with PW, I know of employees who go on secondment between PW in the US and RR here, and vice versa.
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ferpe
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Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:59 am

Here the RR presentation to the press and investors:

http://www.rolls-royce.com/Images/orchid_final_tcm92-32191.pdf

One thing dawns upon you, RR describes the collaboration as around:

- "high bypass geared technologies"

It does not say fan or rotor, ie both.
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baroque
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
So there is an advantage to approaching an infinite number of spools. If one ignores cost, weight, space to package the bearings, and other practical details.

I guess that is the other end member from a single spool. Thank you for taking me/us through what would happen if you tried a 3-spool GTF. Does not sound a great way to go. Pity in a way!

The document released by RR probably leaves as much hidden as revealed. Wonder what a "modest" investment in GTF turns out to be. Maybe at first the real thrust (awful pun) will be in relation to production. Probably a good base from which to move to other issues.

Will joint engines be called Prolls?    Any other awful offerings? USAUKs?
 
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:02 pm

I find this facinatng as UTC's bond rating is in danger from the cash demands of the Goodrich acquizition. I wonder how the bond market will react to another $1.5B going 'poof!'

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
- Particularly Airbus (as 737 is CFM-only) has made clear they'll accept only two engine options on narrowbodies, and told PW & RR to get their act together

I suspect the JV is more to get onto other airframes. I find the RR link, pg. 15, very interesting. It shows how quickly the RB211 revenue is decreasing. Not too much of a surprise. It also shows how RR is a wee bit too dependent on the 'Trent' family. Not a bad thing, but more narrow body engines will help.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
In my understanding, changes to current engine programs are comparatively minor

Somewhat minor. I'm curious what RR will re-engineer.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
Not to mention PW also needing RR's industrial resources just to meet demand...

I agree. However, I speculate that Pratt did this to:
1. Reduce risk (both in manufacturing and engineering)
2. Tap into the RR sales force

All those Trents give RR a better position to sell engines to certain airlines than Pratt...   

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 32):
Then I believe that RR knocking the door, but Pratt still pissed about RRs previous behavior now figured and decided: OK lets do a new Joint venture, but the conditions should avoid 'technology blocking' by one of the partners as happened in the IAE.

I would phrase it differently. IMHO, the IAE system was broken for implimenting PIPs. That required a change. It is interesting how that is changing.


Lightsaber
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Devilfish
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:36 pm

This is a natural progression, given IAE not being onboard the NEO and MAX.


Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Will joint engines be called Prolls?

 Pro'ly.   
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Sounds like the reality that open rotors will not be arriving anytime soon has sunk in. It seems, based on what's written in the OP's article, that RR has seen that open rotor won't likely make it onto the next generation of narrowbodies and consequently decided to put their eggs in the GTF basket.

I agree with this, and other than the issues with IAE that others have commented on I think this is the real news behind the news on this story. Of course I am biased; I have long believed that the open rotor was never going to make it to prime time due to noise, safety and speed issues; and I am interpreting this news as confirming my preconceived opinions. Of course I am the only one to ever do that (NOT), but at least I admit it. 
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r2rho
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
I'm curious what RR will re-engineer.

I wonder... is there still time for RR to introduce design changes into the NEO GTF for EIS? Maybe a few small ones? Or perhaps, RR could introduce those post-EIS via PIPs...
 
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:40 pm

Will RR have any involvement in the assembly of the A320neo GTF, as it's not specifically mentioned?

The new venture IAE Mk2 is geared towards the successors to the current GTF models, if the 737max is a success, then this could be a long way away? I can't see any other medium sized narrowbodes on the horizon.
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ferpe
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:41 pm

A very good analysis of Ernest Arvai at AirInsight:

http://airinsight.com/2011/10/13/pw-rr-partnership-what-it-means/

Summary extract:
"The Bottom Line: For those who still doubted PW’s GTF concept, Rolls Royce endorsement of the concept -despite a controversial relationship, patent lawsuits, and recent difficulties between the companies – the new Joint Venture clearly indicated that the time of a geared turbofan has arrived. What remains to be seen is  Wow! whether GE will need to adopt a geared architecture   to remain competitive over the next decade as the GTF continues to evolve and improve."

Ref the thread about GE having lost the MoJo:

GEnx In Trouble Again, Has GE Lost The Mojo? (by ferpe Sep 30 2011 in Civil Aviation)
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parapente
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:03 pm

As the above article states.Both companies are persuing a geared route.Just one is (for now) a conventional fan and the other OR.

Also it appears (in reality) that airline manufacturers around the World have rejected RR's proposals for a new mid sized engine over and over again. Clearly the GTF is superior. This is the engine of choice.RR are recognising this fact.Indeed as stated they sort of knew it anyway as gearing was the only way (or they would not have done it) to make "OR" work.It's the same issue really - blade tip speeds.

Perhaps we will see a geared contrarotating fan(s)? Certainly something that Safran has been looking at.Less risky than contrarotating variable pitch blades I think!

As a footnote.RR has really lost out as both A&B have chosen not to develop new models.And indeed those that have - Bombardier/MRJ/919/Russians et al. All are boring conventional aircraft that owe more to the 1960's than 2020.

No place for OR in that conservative environment sadly.

Pictures of BWB's sporting OR are fine , but thats all they are or ever will be. What is the the BWB called? - the 748 or 777 Mk2. or A350 etc etc.

Nope P&W called it right - they clearly know the mindset of their clients far better than Rolls.
 
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:26 pm

Even after all the excellent speculation on this thread, something still doesn't make sense:

If RR "blinked" first due to being shut out of the NB market today and realizing the potential to be shutout in the future if new narrowbodies opt for something other than open-rotor, then why is it P&W buying RR out of IAE and paying them royalties? If RR is the one in straits and needing assistance, then why aren't they forking over the cash to purchase P&W's share of IAE?

What does RR have that P&W needs so badly that P&W cough's up a cool $1.5 billion, especially after the (apparent) success of the GTF?
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:35 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 47):
If RR "blinked" first due to being shut out of the NB market today and realizing the potential to be shutout in the future if new narrowbodies opt for something other than open-rotor, then why is it P&W buying RR out of IAE and paying them royalties? If RR is the one in straits and needing assistance, then why aren't they forking over the cash to purchase P&W's share of IAE?

From reading this thread and others I have come to believe that the structure of IAE is standing in their way to go forward with other projects, and by one buying the other out they are somehow cleaning up and essentially shutting down IAE except for support for existing engines, and PW is taking that part over. They are constructing a new joint venture for new products, specifically the new narrowbody engine, which will be based on the GTF but will incorporate RR's expertise as well. I don't see it as either one being in desperate straits, except I do see (as previously noted) an indication that RR is giving up on OR.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Pratt & Whitney Buys Out Rolls-Royce Venture

Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
From reading this thread and others I have come to believe that the structure of IAE is standing in their way to go forward with other projects, and by one buying the other out they are somehow cleaning up and essentially shutting down IAE except for support for existing engines, and PW is taking that part over. They are constructing a new joint venture for new products, specifically the new narrowbody engine, which will be based on the GTF but will incorporate RR's expertise as well. I don't see it as either one being in desperate straits, except I do see (as previously noted) an indication that RR is giving up on OR.

But this doesn't address my question. Why is P&W buying out RR, and not the reverse?
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