toby25
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What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:22 pm

Hello all,

I was wondering if someone smart out there can explain to me what ETOPS mean? I am not technically minded so would appreciate a dummy’s guide on this – a very dummy guide . I checked out Wikipedia and to be honest I am even more confused than enlightened! I think it has something to do with diversions and the distance to other airfields(?) Does the weight of the aircraft or weather affect ETOPS?

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

Thank you very much
Tobias.
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airtran737
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:30 pm

ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations. It is for aircraft with two engines that are approved for routes that don't have a suitable alternate airport within certain time distances.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
rosterdriven
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:30 pm

FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”
Technical-AC120-42A: "For the purpose of this AC, extended range operations are those flights conducted over a route that contain a point further than one hour flying time at the approved one-engine inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from an adequate airport."
ETOPS Portion of Flight -That portion of a flight that begins the first moment an aircraft is greater than one hour flying time atthe approved single-engine inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from the nearest adequate airport, and ends the last moment it is greater than one hour from the nearest adequate airport.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:42 pm

Quoting toby25 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if someone smart out there can explain to me what ETOPS mean?

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

-m

  
 
Burkhard
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:31 pm

In my understand, ETPS90 as example says that the aircraft and airline is certified to fly routes where a twin might reach up to 90 minutes with one engine out - which is slower than with both turning.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:38 pm

There are also discussions out there debating whether ETOPS is even viable anymore. The chances these days of two engines on a twin shutting down for different reasons are slim to none. Point being that anything that would cause a double shutdown would also cause shutdowns to aircraft with three or more engines. I.E. fuel starvation, or volcanic ash. Which have happened by the way. The bigger issue these days are how far away should an airport be in the event of a fire on board, or a serious medical issue, or any other scenario where the aircraft needs to get down that has nothing to do with how many engines the aircraft has.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Amatiel
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm

Actually, ETOPS now refers to Extended Operations and is no longer exclusive to twins.

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2007/info07004.pdf
 
Joost
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”
Quoting rosterdriven (Reply 2):
FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”

Not anymore. Since 2007, ETOPS-regulations also apply to 3- and 4-engine aircraft, although only when the nearest diversion airport is more than 180 minutes away.

Since the application of these rules, ETOPS is redefined as 'Extended Operations'.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...46b0057fd06/$FILE/AC%20120-42B.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_2_07/article_02_7.html

So 2-engine aircraft need to be ETOPS-certified whenever the nearest diversion airport is more than 60 minutes away, 3- and 4-engined aircraft need it when they fly routes with alternatives more than 180 minutes away. 3- and 4-engine freighters are exempted.
 
tcasalert
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
In my understand, ETPS90 as example says that the aircraft and airline is certified to fly routes where a twin might reach up to 90 minutes with one engine out - which is slower than with both turning.

Aside from the aircraft being able to run on one engine there are other requirements, such as extra equipment in the life rafts for example, to ensure the passengers can survive for longer in the event of a ditching.
Next flight: Feb 2012 - BHX-CPH-BHX - SK MD87 / CRJ900
 
Rdh3e
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

I've always said "Engines Turn Or People Swim" cause the crew would be swimming too.
 
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robffm2
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting Amatiel (Reply 6):
Actually, ETOPS now refers to Extended Operations and is no longer exclusive to twins.

Is that FAA only or also EASA?
 
babybus
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 5):
There are also discussions out there debating whether ETOPS is even viable anymore.

You raised and quashed your own argument.

Two engines flaming out at the same time is always a dangerous possibility. As you said volcanic ash can do that, and we know how seismic the planet has become recently. Who would have thought all 4 engines on that BA 747 over Sumatra could flame out? There are also electrical faults that can happen.

I wonder how comforted the passengers would be to know 'We are now flying 90 mins from the nearest airport on our lovely twin jet'?

I believe, although I could be wrong, but don't these ETOPs certificates apply to airline and not the aircraft?
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

Eating Time Of Pacific Sharks
 
Amatiel
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 10):
Is that FAA only or also EASA?

I do not know how that applies to EASA, sorry. I know they were looking at harmonizing when the FAA change occurred, but do not know if EASA ever changed their rule.
 
RobertS975
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:02 pm

ETOPS involves much more than the aircraft itself and certain required redundant systems... it is a maintainence plan, crew training plan etc.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!
Quoting rdh3e (Reply 9):
I've always said "Engines Turn Or People Swim" cause the crew would be swimming too.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Eating Time Of Pacific Sharks

   Every time ETOPS comes up with my friends we always try to come up with different acronyms, many of which aren't appropriate to share here. Fun fact; not many people realize that ETOPS doesn't just apply to over-water flights as many flights over Siberia have ETOPS restrictions as well due to the lack of suitable alternates.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:49 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 11):
I believe, although I could be wrong, but don't these ETOPs certificates apply to airline and not the aircraft?

Both. The aircraft needs to be ETOPS-certified and the operator needs an ETOPS certification in their operations certificate. You can have an ETOPS-certified operator that can't fly certain aircraft ETOPS (e.g. 717's at Hawaiian) and ETOPS-certified aircraft at operators without ETOPS certificates (e.g. 737NG's at WestJet until recently).

Tom.
 
rosterdriven
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:14 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
Quoting robffm2 (Reply 10):
Is that FAA only or also EASA?

I do not know how that applies to EASA, sorry. I know they were looking at harmonizing when the FAA change occurred, but do not know if EASA ever changed their rule.

Seems EASA still uses the old ETOPS rules.

Source: page 28

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...uri=OJ:L:2008:254:0001:0238:EN:PDF
 
QANTAS747-438
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:44 am

What does an airline have to do (aside from rafts, radios, APU, etc...) to become ETOPS certified with the FAA? What "proving flights" would they have to do?
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:43 am

Airlines need to prove their reliability standards & IFSD record to be above a base requirement over time before they can apply for ETOPS permission.
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747400sp
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:57 pm

It means more boring big twins! ETOP is a spotter worst nightmare, because due to ETOP, you have trijets pretty gone, quads getting phase out in favor of twin. I thought guys like me, had a friend with cargo and charter airlines, but Fed Ex and Omni International, prove me wrong. It make sick to my stomach that Fed Ex is doing so well with the 777F, these planes took place of Fed Ex A380F order, and yes that was Airbus fought, but I would have rather seen Fed Ex just continued operating MD-11s on their flag ship routes than, them ordering a big twin. I would like to give the person who came up the ETOP's ideal, ( not saying I would, just would like to) a fat lip and black eye.      




PS: This is just classic 747400sp venting.  
 
RobertS975
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Both. The aircraft needs to be ETOPS-certified and the operator needs an ETOPS certification in their operations certificate.

Exactly! For example, DL has some 757s which are ETOPs certified, and also has many 757s that are not.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:19 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
LONGisland89
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is different for different groups of people but it all means the same thing. The ICAO defines it as Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. The FAA defines is as Extended Operations. United Kingdom's CAA defines it as Extended range Twin Operations. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) defines it as Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Aeroplanes.  
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:30 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards

In the US the acronym *used* to include "twin". Now, by definition of the FAA, it does not. Your mileage in other regulatory environments may vary.

Tom.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 24):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards

In the US the acronym *used* to include "twin". Now, by definition of the FAA, it does not. Your mileage in other regulatory environments may vary.

But as we're talking about the origin of the acronym itself, it's important to include the proper terminology used, despite what it has been re-defined as of late.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
yeelep
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):

Unless I missed it, nobody determined whether we were discussing current or original ETOPS terms.

Boeing's Aero magazine has a excellent article on the changes made to the FAA's ETOPS program.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_2_07/article_02_1.html
 
kellmark
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RE: What Does Etops Mean?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:34 am

Actually, although ETOPS is still in common use, and is likely to remain so for some time as it has been used for so long, and is published in so many places, a new term is being applied by ICAO for what was once ETOPS.

EDTO, which means Extended Diversion Time Operations, which applies to all aircraft, not just twins, which operate over extended routes beyond certain threshold times, beginning with 60 min thresholds in some cases. In other cases the times may go out as far as 240 minutes. These times will be established by the State of the Operator.