LAXintl
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FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:28 pm

The FAA announced its designation of San Francisco International Airport (SFO) as a Level-2 airport under slot guidelines effective for the IATA Summer 2012 (Mar 25 – Oct 27, 2012) scheduling period.

The FAA has determined this designation is necessary based on runway capacity, existing congestion and delays.

FAA will require carriers to submit schedule information for all planned operations between 0600-2259 Pacific time.

Under Level-2, it has been identified that there exist significant potential for congestion during some periods of the day, weeks or season which will see FAA review cumulative intended flight schedules to discuss operational implications and propose schedule changes with air-carriers.

The FAA however expects Level-2 review alone may not reduce existing congestion and delays which may lead to need for full Level-3 slot coordination, and will as such review the Level-2 designation in advance of each IATA scheduling season.

FAA Notice 4910-13
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apodino
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:37 pm

Well, OAK and SJC are still in the bay area that could siphon off traffic that can't serve SFO.

If this happens, it will put VX in a very difficult spot. VX wants to grow, and had most of their eggs in the SFO basket. I don't know how many A320's they are taking delivery of in the near future, but they are going to have to start a lot of new service in a hurry if they are to be granted and who knows if they have the resources for this.

UA is also going to be hurt by this, because with this coming from the federal Gov't, there exists the desire to balance slots among all carriers for competition.

Very interesting to see how this plays out.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:45 pm

Wasn't there controversy around 2000 when the Federal government wanted to implement some sort of slot control plan at SFO? According to Aviation Week, the Feds singled out UA and their use of multiple EMB-120's to CA feeder markets as a problem, and suggested UA use fewer, bigger CRJ's instead. UA insisted that the multiple frequencies were needed for "competitive" reasons (read: congest SFO so badly that other carriers won't want to compete with them) and said the gov't couldn't interfere with their business plan.

Then 9/11 happened, and congestion at SFO eased some, so Federal interest waned. Interesting that SFO has recovered enough that congestion is that big an issue again.

Jim
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SANFan
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
it will put VX in a very difficult spot. VX wants to grow, and had most of their eggs in the SFO basket.

Their other basket of course is LAX but you're right that SFO certainly could be a real issue for Virgin... I for one will be very curious to see how -- and what -- the carrier does if Level 2 or 3 happens at SFO!

bb
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
UA is also going to be hurt by this, because with this coming from the federal Gov't, there exists the desire to balance slots among all carriers for competition.

My thoughts too, just how big can a carrier get at a slot controlled airport before the DOT intervenes? UA's SFO is a pretty nicely size operation...
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
I don't know how many A320's they are taking delivery of in the near future, but they are going to have to start a lot of new service in a hurry if they are to be granted and who knows if they have the resources for this.

According to this, they ordered 60 320s (30 'classics' and 30 NEOs): http://www.virginamerica.com/press-r...rms-Order-for-60-New-Aircraft.html
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The FAA however expects Level-2 review alone may not reduce existing congestion and delays which may lead to need for full Level-3 slot coordination, and will as such review the Level-2 designation in advance of each IATA scheduling season.

It will be interesting to see if we see UA, VX, or WN start to throw additional capacity into SFO in order to receive grandfathered slots in advance of full slot corrdination.
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
Well, OAK and SJC are still in the bay area that could siphon off traffic that can't serve SFO.

I am thinking that is one of the reasons SFO is having these issues (just my opinion). OAK had a little boom of LCC traffic for a while and it seems that once VX started in SFO people weren't as willing to cross the bridge like they were before and the LCCs moved their focus for the bay-area over to SFO. OAK's pax numbers have dropped to the levels of over a decade ago as airlines battle it out in SFO now.

From OAK's website http://www.flyoakland.com/airport_stats_yearend_stats.shtml this graph speaks volumes to me:

http://www.flyoakland.com/images/interior/airport_stats_passenger_11.gif
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LAXintl
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:12 pm

Don't think this will have much effect on VX initially as the FAA order even states that the Department believes there is ample available capacity at SFO during slower periods to accommodate more operations.

SFO has pronounceable scheduling peaks (such as the noon Asia rush) much due to United and its hub operation. VX still has large chunks of the day to work with and build its network.

As far as the idea that other carrier bulk up fast at SFO, another underlying issue is gates. The airport is pretty tight on gate space, so its not going to be easy for anyone else to develop much of a large operation from scratch.


At the end of the day however SFO simply sucks operationally. Having hourly airport rate of between 30-48 movements is a definitive handicap for all involved.
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):

UA is also going to be hurt by this, because with this coming from the federal Gov't, there exists the desire to balance slots among all carriers for competition.

UA's arrival banks are what causes the problem. When dual approaches can be made at SFO (Ceilings above 4,000ft), everything is fine. When not, the flow control goes into effect. It is extraordinarily predictable however. I commuted SEA-SFO and it was really easy to know if the flight would depart on time or with a 1hr 10min delay due to flow control. Implementing slots would make it so that there is not the disparity, however it would essentially treat SFO as an airport with 3 instead of 4 runways.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):


Don't think this will have much effect on VX initially as the FAA order even states that the Department believes there is ample available capacity at SFO during slower periods to accommodate more operations.

Only during the arrival banks is there a problem. UA's 10am, 1pm, and 4pm banks are where there are problems. Outside of those, the flow control isn't that bad. Since VX does not focus on connecting traffic, I would not expect them to have much trouble.
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enilria
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
If this happens, it will put VX in a very difficult spot. VX wants to grow, and had most of their eggs in the SFO basket.

I would assume that VX will get the State of California behind them as this will limit jobs from all these VX planes that will need to go elsewhere.

Is SFO really in more need of this than BOS and PHL???

[Edited 2011-10-13 11:04:20]
 
as739x
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:10 pm

I am curious to know if UA saw this coming. They have been doing some fitting at gate 89 with the 777 to see if it can be accommodated. With slot control in effect you will obviously need to add larger aircraft.

VX with their current schedule has a lot of growth room gate wise before they run into any snags, as they have some times of the day when only 1 or 2 gates are occupied. As they add more short haul West Coast flights mid-afternoon there will be the gate space.

DL is another carrier who has started a noticeable presence here with all the RJ flying to LAX. That would be an easy fix throwing a few 737's back on the route. But then again back to the complaining of not being competitive on the frequency side.

On top of what hurts SFO is that once we are running behind from that morning rush starting at 9am, if the weather persist there is no time for schedules to recover.

Personally over slot control, I like the idea of incentives if you cancel or pre-cancel flights with known weather systems coming in. Just last week SkyWest precancelled 27 flights, which should be rewarded. How I don't know. Mind you this was just a thought on my part.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

I think you nailed it. Slot control during the obvious peeks that screw up the whole day. Example; 0900-1300 and 1930-2130
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enilria
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
If this happens, it will put VX in a very difficult spot. VX wants to grow, and had most of their eggs in the SFO basket.
I would assume that VX will get the State of California behind them as this will limit jobs from all these VX planes that will need to go elsewhere.
Is SFO really in more need of this than BOS and PHL???
Quoting as739x (Reply 11):
VX with their current schedule has a lot of growth room gate wise before they run into any snags, as they have some times of the day when only 1 or 2 gates are occupied. As they add more short haul West Coast flights mid-afternoon there will be the gate space.

What follows would require a lot of money, BUT if this really happens and VX really wants SFO growth then they have two options. Begin a lot of short-haul flying with mainline to eat up slots and slowly transition it to long-haul over time as they get more airplanes...or contract with somebody like OO to waste a bunch of slots on junk until VX needs them for something important.
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 12):

Let's not jump the gun. At no point does the FAA statement above say what the restrictions will be. If there is a slot number published and VX does this, what makes UA/DL not do the same thing? Then SFO is in a world or hurt.

What the FAA is asking for is published schedules for now, that's how I read it.

If the airlines flood SFO with flights, your going to have your hands full with your schedule updates  
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FATFlyer
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 2):
Wasn't there controversy around 2000 when the Federal government wanted to implement some sort of slot control plan at SFO? According to Aviation Week, the Feds singled out UA and their use of multiple EMB-120's to CA feeder markets as a problem, and suggested UA use fewer, bigger CRJ's instead. UA insisted that the multiple frequencies were needed for "competitive" reasons (read: congest SFO so badly that other carriers won't want to compete with them) and said the gov't couldn't interfere with their business plan.

Back in 1999 SFO administration (not the Federal Govt) was talking about trying to make airlines use larger aircraft to cut the number of flights and reduce delays.

From 1999:
SFO May Force Airlines to Use Bigger Planes - Director sees it as one way to cut delays
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....cgi?f=/c/a/1999/02/04/MN37917.DTL

S.F. International Gets Plan For Bigger Jets, Fewer Flights
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....cgi?f=/c/a/1999/02/17/MN49020.DTL

The attempt followed then-Mayor Willie Brown's rant about the "Those itty-bitty panty-waist planes that they use between here and Los Angeles " in reference to the United Shuttle 737s.
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catiii
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
UA is also going to be hurt by this, because with this coming from the federal Gov't, there exists the desire to balance slots among all carriers for competition.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
My thoughts too, just how big can a carrier get at a slot controlled airport before the DOT intervenes? UA's SFO is a pretty nicely size operation...

Apparently pretty big. I believe DL now controls almost half the slots at LGA following this week's slot swap approval.
 
SANFan
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
I would assume that VX will get the State of California behind them as this will limit jobs from all these VX planes that will need to go elsewhere

Yeah, or perhaps VX could (finally) look at some other airports in the Golden State besides SF and LA...   

bb
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:14 am

Instead of expansion...

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 7):
it seems that once VX started in SFO people weren't as willing to cross the bridge like they were before and the LCCs moved their focus for the bay-area over to SFO.

I suspect that VX drew attention to SFO. WN crossing the bridge didn't hurt either...

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
Yeah, or perhaps VX could (finally) look at some other airports in the Golden State besides SF and LA...

There are other airports?   

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United1
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
Yeah, or perhaps VX could (finally) look at some other airports in the Golden State besides SF and LA...

There are other airports?   

Indeed there are and VX tried one of them not to long ago IIRC (SNA) and it didn't turn out so well for them.
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SANFan
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:03 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
There are other airports?

I'm pretty sure if you ask Mr. Cush, you would get a blank stare, a pause, then a "no, not that I'm aware of".

bb
 
briguy1974
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:26 am

Why not build the 3rd parallel runway to the 28's in the bay and do a crazy thing. Solve the GDP problem at SFO, create jobs. Put people to work. If I was a politician in the bay area I would be all over this. The plans are already there. The enviromental impact studies have already been done. The president himself has talked about infrastructure in this country. Lets stop talking and get to work.
 
United1
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:49 am

Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 20):
Lets stop talking and get to work.

I agree however the Bay is plagued by Marin housewives and Berkleites who will never allow anything to be done at SFO that would remove even a cubic foot of water from the bay.
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RayChuang
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:29 am

This type of slot restriction will do two things, in my humble opinion:

1. We could see larger planes used by regional carriers like United Express out of SFO.

2. It could mean UA/CO may have to seriously consider rebuilding and refurbishing a lot more 757-200's than anticipated, since slot restrictions means UA/CO will have to use larger planes to maintain seat capacity in and out of the airport.
 
n471wn
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 20):
Why not build the 3rd parallel runway to the 28's in the bay and do a crazy thing. Solve the GDP problem at SFO, create jobs. Put people to work. If I was a politician in the bay area I would be all over this. The plans are already there. The enviromental impact studies have already been done. The president himself has talked about infrastructure in this country. Lets stop talking and get to work.

Yes and right on!! Of course that is the answer as nothing needs more of an infastructure now than SFO and the window to do it is now.....we need a new runway configuaration and with the need for jobs this is the time to do it----perhaps the environmental whacko's will shut up long enough to get this done!!
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 23):
Yes and right on!! Of course that is the answer as nothing needs more of an infastructure now than SFO and the window to do it is now.....we need a new runway configuaration and with the need for jobs this is the time to do it----perhaps the environmental whacko's will shut up long enough to get this done!!

Don't expect the whackos to change their tune. There are a lot of bridges that Obama talks about being functionally or structurally insufficient when they really have just too much traffic than the bridge was designed to handle. The biggest obstacle to building bridges and airports is the environmental concerns, many pushed by environmental whackos..
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fcogafa
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 pm

SFO gets a significant amount of business aviation traffic so that would be high up the list for curtailment, as at other large airports.
 
LAXintl
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):
I would assume that VX will get the State of California behind them as this will limit jobs from all these VX planes that will need to go elsewhere.

In a worst case of a SFO slot lockdown they can still grow LAX significantly. They have plenty of gates, and no slot or ATC restrictions to work around.

Quoting as739x (Reply 11):
I am curious to know if UA saw this coming.

Yes, the airlines knew this was coming. FAA does not do this in a vacuum and virtually always has consultation with the industry first.

Quoting as739x (Reply 11):
On top of what hurts SFO is that once we are running behind from that morning rush starting at 9am, if the weather persist there is no time for schedules to recover.

   Indeed this is a problem.
The backup of flights, and equipment running late can take the entire day to clear up after even an hour of bad morning of ops.

Quoting as739x (Reply 13):
Let's not jump the gun. At no point does the FAA statement above say what the restrictions will be.

   Yes indeed. All the FAA requires at the moment is for airlines to formally file their proposed schedules and participate in consultations to smooth out the peaks and valleys.

If next summer does not go well and airlines do not voluntarily make adjustments then the FAA can move onto Level-3 which is formal slot coordination.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 14):
The attempt followed then-Mayor Willie Brown's rant about the "Those itty-bitty panty-waist planes that they use between here and Los Angeles " in reference to the United Shuttle 737s.

Poor Willie never quite figured out how a hub works and the critical need for feed from those small planes which allowed him as an elite UA flyer to enjoy a broad set of global nonstop destinations from SFO directly.

Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 20):

Why not build the 3rd parallel runway to the 28's in the bay and do a crazy thing.

Don't even go there. Nothing of the sort will happen. SFO today is what SFO will stay.

Personally I'd say they would be better building an island out in the Pacific ala KIX. However even that wont end the weather phenomena which plagues airline operations.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 22):
1. We could see larger planes used by regional carriers like United Express out of SFO.

Already happening. UAX E120 fleet continues to shrink. Markets are either getting dropped, trimmed, or swapping over to jets.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 22):
2. It could mean UA/CO may have to seriously consider rebuilding and refurbishing a lot more 757-200's than anticipated, since slot restrictions means UA/CO will have to use larger planes to maintain seat capacity in and out of the airport.

The 757 idea is not happening. The 757 fleet is shrinking at UA and will continue to do so.

If SFO becomes such a slot burden then I can see UA move way from its hub scheduling practices which creates the peaks and instead focus more on running a local O&D operation. Yes some international markets could suffer due lack of adequate feed, but the days of the 744 are short anyhow so it might be a good opportunity to swap ever more markets onto things like then growing 787 fleet.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 25):
SFO gets a significant amount of business aviation traffic so that would be high up the list for curtailment, as at other large airports.

?? I'm not sure where you get this idea.

SFO sees very little non-commercial traffic. Matter of fact its gets the least amongst all 3 of the Bay Area major airports.

In 2010, SFO received merely 12,570 such movements. Compared to almost 100,000 at OAK, and about 30,000 at SJC.

[Edited 2011-10-14 09:26:44]
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goldenstate
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
I agree however the Bay is plagued by Marin housewives and Berkleites who will never allow anything to be done at SFO that would remove even a cubic foot of water from the bay.

I know this will not be a popular view here, but given that human beings have already reduced the size of San Francisco Bay by a third over the last 200 years, I'd say that concern is quite valid.

Out of curiosity, how many Marin housewives and "Berkleites" [sic] have you discussed this issue with?

The Bay Area has unique geographical and natural features. Urban and suburban pockets are interspersed between vast green spaces and undeveloped areas, the most signifcant of which is the Bay itself. As a result, there is fairly broad support across the region for preserving these to the greatest possible extent, rather than paving them over as other large metro areas have done.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 23):
perhaps the environmental whacko's will shut up long enough to get this done!!

Interesting view from the other side of the tunnel. Would you support a proposal to level a few subdivisions and put a new commercial airport in San Ramon.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
If SFO becomes such a slot burden then I can see UA move way from its hub scheduling practices which creates the peaks and instead focus more on running a local O&D operation. Yes some international markets could suffer due lack of adequate feed, but the days of the 744 are short anyhow so it might be a good opportunity to swap ever more markets onto things like then growing 787 fleet.

Unless SFO is underperforming on the revenue side, it's hard to envision the rationale for unwinding the operation there. UA has the only full scale Pacific gateway aboard CONUS, with strong economic/cultural ties and solid business O&D demand, and they get all of this without having to wade into LAX and go to war with virtually every major Asian carrier. The place is clearly a strategic asset, although I wonder how it fits into UA's long term plans as their new leadership seems determined to move aggressively in LAX.
 
as739x
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 27):

SFO will be fine under UA's long term plan.
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jacobin777
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 27):
Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
I agree however the Bay is plagued by Marin housewives and Berkleites who will never allow anything to be done at SFO that would remove even a cubic foot of water from the bay.

I know this will not be a popular view here, but given that human beings have already reduced the size of San Francisco Bay by a third over the last 200 years, I'd say that concern is quite valid.

Out of curiosity, how many Marin housewives and "Berkleites" [sic] have you discussed this issue with?

The Bay Area has unique geographical and natural features. Urban and suburban pockets are interspersed between vast green spaces and undeveloped areas, the most signifcant of which is the Bay itself. As a result, there is fairly broad support across the region for preserving these to the greatest possible extent, rather than paving them over as other large metro areas have done.

A third runway however would take up very little area and it is something which would be beneficial to all of the people who live in Bay Area.
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United1
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 27):
I know this will not be a popular view here, but given that human beings have already reduced the size of San Francisco Bay by a third over the last 200 years, I'd say that concern is quite valid.

Out of curiosity, how many Marin housewives and "Berkleites" [sic] have you discussed this issue with?

I don't disagree that the bay is something absolutely beautiful and needs to be protected but I don't see the harm in removing both sets of runways and rebuilding them spaced further apart. It would solve multiple issues without causing a major impact to the bay.

As for how many people I have discussed this with, as someone who calls the bay home (Alameda,) I think I can speak from experience that generally when a project is derailed due to environmental concerns people who are for the project either blame the "crusading Marin housewives" or the "tree hugging hippies from Berkeley" for imposing their will upon the rest of the bays population.
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LAXintl
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 27):
, it's hard to envision the rationale for unwinding the operation there. UA has the only full scale Pacific gateway aboard CONUS

Its not hard to envisage at all.

Fast forward. Its 2017.

United 744 fleet has continued to shrink and are on the way out, it has 50 787s on property with more on the way and the A350 is arriving.

In the interim thanks to the 787 UA has added host of nonstop Asia markets from inland hubs (IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD).

Just as how the importance of NRT has shrunk within the network as more of Asia is reached directly by overflying, the same will happen with SFO. United will connect more cities directly to other US hubs negating the need to channel bulk of traffic over SFO.

What remains at SFO will focus primarily on local O&D demand. Such shift will also improve fleet utilization as the need to stack everything on top of each other around noon time is no longer there, and things like midnight departures to Asia will become practical.

Lastly besides the operational headaches at SFO, keep in mind its one of the more expensive US airports to operate from. Every passenger that is not routed over SFO and instead via another hub is potentially a savings to the bottom line.
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n471wn
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 27):
Interesting view from the other side of the tunnel. Would you support a proposal to level a few subdivisions and put a new commercial airport in San Ramon.

A poor analogy and you know it but I live in Danville and there is no airport here. Where you live, you knew SFO was there first and you still elected to live there......when I lived in Redwood City I knew that so let SFO grow and be a productive airport
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
In the interim thanks to the 787 UA has added host of nonstop Asia markets from inland hubs (IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD).

It's already true to a large extent. From SFO, UA flies to PEK, KIX, ICN, PVG, SYD and NRT.

PEK has service to ORD, IAD and EWR

PVG has service to ORD, LAX and EWR

SYD has service to LAX

NRT has service to ORD, HNL, IAH, LAS, EWR, SEA and IAD.

That leaves only ICN - a partner hub with OZ service to LAX and and ORD and KIX, which is unlikely to see service to any other gateway even after the 787s arrive.

Quoting enilria (Reply 10):

Is SFO really in more need of this than BOS and PHL???

By the numbers, yes.

YTD ontime:

SFO 68.99%

BOS 69.97%

PHL 74.49%

EWR is the only major airport with a worse ontime percentage than SFO. With regard to BOS' number, keep in mind that without a hub there, there aren't banks that create more difficulty than other times as much as there at SFO.
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:17 am

I agree that if UAX cut frequencies and added CRJ's to EMB routes and/or some destinations could even support a 737 mainline UA. EUG, MFR, RDM, BOI, SMF, GEG could support at least one up-gauge and loose a frequency. The slots could allow further growth expansion for UA & VX, as well as more foreign options.
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 25):

SFO gets a significant amount of business aviation traffic so that would be high up the list for curtailment, as at other large airports.

Here are the FAA numbers for General Aviation in the 2010 calendar year for the top 20 airports by total traffic movement:


1 ATL ……. 7,269
2 ORD ……. 7,326
3 DFW ……. 5,489
4 DEN ……. 3,721
5 LAX ……. 20,050
6 IAH ……. 11,596
7 CLT ……. 24,414
8 LAS ……. 43,666
9 PHL ……. 21,835
10 DTW ……. 6,849
11 PHX ……. 21,100
12 MSP ……. 13,784
13 EWR ……. 9,441
14 JFK ……. 7,380
15 SFO ……. 13,586
16 MIA ……. 17,851
17 IAD ……. 47,845
18 BOS ……. 18,912
19 DVT ……. 135,651
20 LGA ……. 6,956

At present, SFO has about 37 GA movements per day. Clearly, if SFO bumps up their GA landing fees, and cuts down say, to the level of DEN, that's about 10,000 flights a year, or a reduction of about 28 movements per day.

If things did start getting too tight at SFO, would this be enough would be the question?

[Edited 2011-10-17 11:17:38]
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:44 pm

I wonder if this will put a priority on VX to add more SFO ideal times over LAX to grab more slots in the future?
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:49 pm

From an article looks like VX welcomes the FAA getting involved.

..when contacted, the carrier responded with the following statement: %u201CThis will not impact our broader growth plans at SFO, and we believe the FAA action is a proactive step that will help to address any potential future capacity or congestion issues, as a result of the planned airfield construction starting next year.%u201D The construction referenced is some runway safety area (RSA) work to be done at night, unlikely to have any pronounced effect on operations.

Virgin America CEO David Cush previously said the airline already has some periods during the day in which gate space is constrained so Virgin's expansion may already be planned for off-peak times.


Story:
http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...york-and-change-comes-to-sfo-60823

Also basically confirms the notion that there are lull periods where additional flight activity can be mounted.
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:02 pm

At the risk of stating the obvious, as SFO congestion comes back to pre-9/11 levels, operational realities will force airlines to start looking at OAK and SJC. This issue was touched on in the Regional Airport Study, where the local bureaucrats try to understand the aviation industry:
http://www.regionalairportstudy.com/
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting psa188 (Reply 38):
At the risk of stating the obvious, as SFO congestion comes back to pre-9/11 levels, operational realities will force airlines to start looking at OAK and SJC.

Maybe, but historically that is easier said than done. JFK/LGA/EWR have been a congested mess for many years now, but carriers are not exactly beating down the door to fly out of SWF/ISP.

Of course, OAK and SJC are better situated than SWF/ISP, but I wouldn't hold my breath expecting a stampede of carriers to OAK/SJC.
 
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RE: FAA Looks To Make SFO Slot Restricted

Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
Of course, OAK and SJC are better situated than SWF/ISP, but I wouldn't hold my breath expecting a stampede of carriers to OAK/SJC.

I'm not expecting a "stampede" of carriers/flights to OAK or SJC, but common sense tells us that if SFO becomes increasingly congested, nearby airports with excess capacity will get some the overflow. Of course, this assumes traffic continues to increase, if the economy remains lousy and fares/fees keep climbing, all bets are off.

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