speedmarque
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Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:40 pm

Hi

Title says it all really. Do the Chinese built Airbuses only go to Chinese airlines or could any airline get either a Toulouse or China built machine?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:52 pm

They are built for the Chinese market, like the Audi A6L built and sold in China.
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kl911
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:05 pm

Are there any differences between French and Chinese A320's ? Can a carrier have 10 of both operate side by side?
 
B2443
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Are there any differences between French and Chinese A320's ? Can a carrier have 10 of both operate side by side?

Should be exactly the same. A handful of Chinese carriers are doing precisely just that (mixture of Chinese and French A320s), e.g. Sichuan Airlines.
 
MEA-707
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:31 pm

The Chinese airlines which fly Tianjin aircraft also own 320s completed in Toulouse. Just like Hamburg all aircraft have the same materials and specifications. The Chinese demand for A-320s is so far bigger then Tianjin's capacity of max 4 a month so why bother to build aircraft for airlines outside China. But eventually I can see them sold to non Chinese airlines, maybe as 2nd hand.
Some MD-80s which were manufactured in China also ended up in the west, I flew on a Spirit Air SAIC MD-80 once and nothing was different, not made of inferior plastics or so.

[Edited 2011-10-18 11:32:23]
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kl911
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 3):
Should be exactly the same. A handful of Chinese carriers are doing precisely just that (mixture of Chinese and French A320s), e.g. Sichuan Airlines.

Then why isnt EADS moving the whole A320 line to China? It must have much cheaper labour costs. Manpower and space in Toulouse/Hamburg can then be used to ramp up the A380 A330 and soon A350.
 
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viasa
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Until now there were seven Chinese A319s and 55 A320s in operation. All of them with Chinese airlines.

- Air China (3 A320s)
- Capital Airlines (6 A319s, 2 A320s)
- China Eastern Airlines (21 A320s)
- China Southern Airlines (10 A320s)
- Juneyao Airlines (4 A320s)
- Shenzhen Airlines (6 A320s)
- Sichuan Airlines (4 A320s)
- Spring Airlines (2 A320s)
- West Air (1 A319s, 3 A320s)

We will see if perhaps a Non-Chinese airline will get some A32Ss from Tianjin.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting viasa (Reply 6):
We will see if perhaps a Non-Chinese airline will get some A32Ss from Tianjin.

I do not believe that is allowed under the agreement with the EU. Could be wrong, but I believe the Chinese built aircraft must be sold to Chinese carriers.

China has continuing demand for more than 4 per month. One reason they keep signing up for 100 and 150 at a time.
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airbazar
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 5):
Then why isnt EADS moving the whole A320 line to China? It must have much cheaper labour costs. Manpower and space in Toulouse/Hamburg can then be used to ramp up the A380 A330 and soon A350.

The strong European economies still value their manufactoring industry, especially the high end ones. It's not by accident that Germany is the #2 exporter in the world, right behind China and ahead of the US despite being a much smaller country. France is #5. The fact that Japan, Germany, and France are huge manufactoring and export powerhouses should tell you that labor costs are not the only thing that matters.

[Edited 2011-10-18 12:17:03]
 
flashmeister
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Are there any differences between French and Chinese A320's ? Can a carrier have 10 of both operate side by side?

If there were significant differences in the Chinese-built A320s, it would likely impact those frames' resale values... and these frames will likely trade hands at some point. Case in point: the Chinese-made MD90s that Delta wants. I'd bet that to keep things simple from a training, operations, spares, maintenance, and resale perspective, they're keeping these birds as consistent as possible.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 5):
Then why isnt EADS moving the whole A320 line to China? It must have much cheaper labour costs. Manpower and space in Toulouse/Hamburg can then be used to ramp up the A380 A330 and soon A350.

I doubt the A320s coming off the line in China are significantly less costly than those in Europe. The line is there to win political points as the Chinese can buy the aircraft and feel good about getting more local work.

My own two cents is that as more and more work gets transferred to the subcontractors (especially as was the case for the 787), it's easier to open up more final assembly lines in diverse locations. Providing end users with the opportunity to perform local work is becoming more and more important in just about every manufacturing sector. With the next generation of aircraft, perhaps we will see the OEMs selling a percentage of orders as "kit planes" that get assembled at an airline's heavy maintenance facility.
 
phishphan70
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
Some MD-80s which were manufactured in China also ended up in the west,



If I'm not mistaken, AA has or has had 5 Chinese-built MD-80's. Also if I'm not mistaken, I remember reading a thread on A.net 2 years ago or so that the maintenance costs for these 5 aircraft were noticeably higher than the rest in the fleet. Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong? Thank you.

Cameron
 
B2443
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:13 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
The line is there to win political points as the Chinese can buy the aircraft and feel good about getting more local work.

Are you suggesting that EU plays politics as well? Tell that to ikramerica. Of course they do, and so do the Americans.

Many here get all excited about losing technology or trade secrets to China when the line was agreed to land in China. Of course China is the bad guy as they are the copycats. But people don't think why EU (Airbus 320 line) and US (MD 80/90 line) still agreed to do it for the obvious reasons. In my opinion, they happened because they were an attempt to deter the Chinese from developing their own. Through joint ventures, the foreign dependencies are long term. China will need to spend money on the joint ventures. If they want their own, extra money will be spent and time too.

If I look back 30 years what China has gained from those joint ventures, which are often viewed as bad businesses in the west, I don't see much, besides that China got the blue collar jobs from the west, and pollution along with them. One thing is clear, foreign products are in; foreign brands are in. They have cultivated a growing middle class that are loyal to foreign brands, from KFC to Cocacola, from Samsung to BMW, from Sony to Apple so on and so forth. From color TV's or other electronics in the early 80's and cars in the 2000, and aircraft in 2010's, they have not come up a single brand that can complete with the world's best in any of these industries. That's a fact and that tells me they have not learned much to be innovative. To the contrary, the ones where the west so smartly bans itself from exporting, China has made its position in the world. A clear example is the space industry. They don't need no NASA or JPL, to name a few.

With that said, i believe the EU/US are the winners in installing 320/MD lines there. BTW, their ARJ has been delayed, their C-series is probably as remote as anything. They will get something done but they have certainly delay the whole process by 30 years. They should have continued with Y-10. But no, some corrupt officials decided to kill it, thanks to the ....
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
I doubt the A320s coming off the line in China are significantly less costly than those in Europe. The line is there to win political points as the Chinese can buy the aircraft and feel good about getting more local work.


That's of course a given point, but there is also more into this I think.
Airbus sees an increased demand for aircraft over coming decades, and production needs to be ramped up.
As china can offer cheaper labour than Europe, it is natural to expand production facilities there.
I think we can see Tianjin produce well over 10 frames per month later this decade.
I also expect more sourcing of components from China in the future.
To balance currency exposure by having cost as well as revenues in China makes sense to me.
If it is not already happening, expect Chinese carrier to agree aircraft price in CNY as well.
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r2rho
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:39 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 10):
I doubt the A320s coming off the line in China are significantly less costly than those in Europe. The line is there to win political points as the Chinese can buy the aircraft and feel good about getting more local work.

   Exactly. I remember some Airbus official stating once that a Chinese A320 is no cheaper to produce than a European one, because the higher costs of the logistics network compensate for the lower labor costs.

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 13):
Airbus sees an increased demand for aircraft over coming decades, and production needs to be ramped up.
As china can offer cheaper labour than Europe, it is natural to expand production facilities there.
I think we can see Tianjin produce well over 10 frames per month later this decade.

Indeed. While I don't see "Chinese" A320's going to non-Chinese customers in the short term (if anything, because demand in China outweighs TSN's production capacity), if Airbus ramps up production in the future, I could see TSN growing. Long-term, TSN could produce for other Asian customers too. And somebody needs to keep producing A320s while TLS & XFW are converted to NEO production (and presumably have to ramp-down) - TSN could pick that up.
 
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par13del
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:23 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 14):
Exactly. I remember some Airbus official stating once that a Chinese A320 is no cheaper to produce than a European one, because the higher costs of the logistics network compensate for the lower labor costs.

I guess it's an airline thing then, because in everything else it is said that China is picking up manufacturing jobs from the west because their labour cost are cheaper.
Maybe if airline execs started running other industries they would not be loosing them in the west, just a thought  
 
jayeshrulz
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting speedmarque (Thread starter):
Hi

Title says it all really. Do the Chinese built Airbuses only go to Chinese airlines or could any airline get either a Toulouse or China built machine?


Weren't some aircrafts supposed to go to Indigo Airlines- India from TSN? I remember reading it somewhere that its quicker to deliver it after production due to the distance between TSN and DEL/BOM?
Correct me if i'm wrong. Thanks.
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FWAERJ
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:33 pm

Quoting phishphan70 (Reply 11):
If I'm not mistaken, AA has or has had 5 Chinese-built MD-80's.

Correct, and they are all former TW birds. IIRC, the SAIC birds were delivered to TW because LGB couldn't keep up with MD-80 demand for a while.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
Some MD-80s which were manufactured in China also ended up in the west, I flew on a Spirit Air SAIC MD-80 once and nothing was different, not made of inferior plastics or so.

That ex-NK bird (which started in China with MU) is now flying for the Detroit Pistons.

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r2rho
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:53 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
I guess it's an airline thing then, because in everything else it is said that China is picking up manufacturing jobs from the west because their labour cost are cheaper.

Probably shipping a couple hundred thousand DVD players per month is a whole different deal than shipping components for 4 aircraft per month. Also, the Airbus logistic network is still geared more towards shipping parts to and within Europe, and TSN is probably an odd duck in there.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:12 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
Quoting viasa (Reply 6):
We will see if perhaps a Non-Chinese airline will get some A32Ss from Tianjin.

I do not believe that is allowed under the agreement with the EU. Could be wrong, but I believe the Chinese built aircraft must be sold to Chinese carriers.

What about a Chinese leasing company leasing to foreign airlines?
 
Avianca
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 16):
I remember reading it somewhere that its quicker to deliver it after production due to the distance between TSN and DEL/BOM?

would say yes, like 8 hours less flight time   
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breiz
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:33 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 19):
What about a Chinese leasing company leasing to foreign airlines?


BOC Aviation (100% subsidiary of Bank of China) is already in the business of leasing ac to airlines around the world.
http://www.bocaviation.com/
BOC Aviation is the former SALE (Singapore Aircraft Leasing Enterprise).
By the ac on lease are not yet produced in China.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:22 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 14):
Exactly. I remember some Airbus official stating once that a Chinese A320 is no cheaper to produce than a European one, because the higher costs of the logistics network compensate for the lower labor costs

It begs the question; Why do it then?

I don't think there are any fancy or complicated reasoning going on here it would have been
"If you don't open a line in China we won't buy something (planes trains could be anything) else from you.

I think the reason is that China wants to learn how to run its own modern aviation manufacturing, based on a known successful system of Govt/Private endeavour. It's not the aircraft technology itself, its the project management and logistics they want to get a handle on.

Anyway my 2c worth!

Ruscoe
 
rfields5421
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RE: Do "Chinese" A320s Only Go To Chinese Airlines?

Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
because in everything else it is said that China is picking up manufacturing jobs from the west because their labour cost are cheaper.

It depends upon the skill level of the job. For products with relatively low skill levels and a high production rate - China can provide quite a cost savings in labor costs.

For products with a high skill level and low production rate - the labor cost savings is minimal.

You are not seeing China build Mercedes sedans for sale in Germany. You are seeing China build low cost DVD players. But even China is not immune to the moving jobs process. China is losing jobs in clothing manufacturing to the Indian sub-continent and Africa.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 22):
I don't think there are any fancy or complicated reasoning going on here it would have been
"If you don't open a line in China we won't buy something (planes trains could be anything) else from you.

You have the answer. Airbus would loved to have kept the entire production in Europe (after all keeping high paying industrial production jobs in Europe is a key reason Airbus exists), just as MD would loved to have kept the entire production in the US. But the Chinese government plays the various manufacturers against each other.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 22):
I think the reason is that China wants to learn how to run its own modern aviation manufacturing, based on a known successful system of Govt/Private endeavour. It's not the aircraft technology itself, its the project management and logistics they want to get a handle on.

Good luck for them (spoken in jest).

I worked a decade with one of the companies listed above with a market leading significant presence in China. It is going to take at least a generation of new leadership before such concepts become acceptable in China. The government is very conservative about allowing changes which promote individual initiative on a large scale.

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