Gonzalo
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ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:00 am

Not the best way of giving a baptism to the newest toy in the fleet  http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...t-787-into-boarding-bridge-363604/


Apparently the damage was very minor, but still, come on guys... be careful with this baby !!!


Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2011-10-19 04:03:58]

[Edited 2011-10-19 04:12:51]
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wilco737
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RE: ANA 787 Hit Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:02 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Oh boy. Not a good start. But these things can happen. Bad luck that it was the 787.

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UA933
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:09 pm

Will repairs to the fuselage be more expensive or complex now that they are using composites compared to aluminum?
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fpetrutiu
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:08 pm

Quoting UA933 (Reply 2):
Will repairs to the fuselage be more expensive or complex now that they are using composites compared to aluminum?

I think yes, but will not happen as often as aliminum.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting UA933 (Reply 2):
Will repairs to the fuselage be more expensive or complex now that they are using composites compared to aluminum?

Depends . . .

If they decide to do a standard bolt-on repair, then the cost would be almost the same.
If they decide to do a "bonded" repair, then it could be more costly.

As far as this incident is concern, looks like the damage was to the engine cowl which would have been composite anyway whether the fuselage was aluminum or composite.

bikerthai.
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SKAirbus
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:21 pm

It's not like this aircraft is the biggest in the ANA fleet... It is only really slightly bigger than the 767!

When the A380 entered service there were a number of mishaps, which although avoidable were slightly more understandable due to the aircraft's size and dimensions.

Did ANA put its most inexperienced ground crew in charge of towing this expensive piece of gear around?
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MadameConcorde
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:32 pm

Article is dated 14 October.

I am sure the new ANA beauty is very fine by now and back to the skies.

I will have to SevenWaitSeven until 21 January to be on the flight from HND to FRA - first long haul for Princess Dreamliner.

It will not be the same aircraft as this HND-FRA will have the new "Staggered" Business Class seats for international operations. A two-cabin aircraft. The one they will fly to HKG is the domestic version - first delivered aircraft to ANA. "We Fly First".

The HND-FRA flight will be more like the true first international commercial flight as it is opened to all to fly on. The 26 October inaugural was by lottery, invitations, the press and a few rare outlandish priced Business seats for charity on Yahoo Japan and ebay (3 each).

        
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United787
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:36 pm

This answers the question...what is ANA going to be doing with the 787 for a month before service...playing bumper cars...

Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...
 
jetblast
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:46 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 7):
for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...

Some slight differences, you may note the 748F is not an entirely new design while the 787 has some quirks about it. The freighter is also not carrying passengers...

[Edited 2011-10-19 08:47:31]
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Navigator
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 4):
If they decide to do a standard bolt-on repair, then the cost would be almost the same.

Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?
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SKAirbus
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 7):
Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...

Pretty unfair comparison imho.

The 787 is a brand new aircraft with completely new systems and an all new flightdeck. It is also made up of many composite parts so not only do flight crews and cabin crew need to get used to it but also engineers and other maintenance staff.

The 748F has the exact same flight deck as the 747-400, many of the same systems with the main differences being in the wings, engines and the fuselage lengthening. Probably explains why the 748i hasn't sold very well as it isn't much of an upgauge on the 744. I am suprised the 748 1980s flight deck has not been replaced by a more modern 787/777 style full glass cockpit.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 10):
The 748F has the exact same flight deck as the 747-400, many of the same systems with the main differences being in the wings, engines and the fuselage lengthening. Probably explains why the 748i hasn't sold very well as it isn't much of an upgauge on the 744. I am suprised the 748 1980s flight deck has not been replaced by a more modern 787/777 style full glass cockpit.

To an extent, it did:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...a-closer-look-747-flight-deck.html
 
andytb77
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:53 pm

So will the damage to the engine cowl cause a performance penalty in the laminar flow? Remember the discussions on how Boeing will require the engines to all be white so as not to disturb the laminar flow. You would think that any type of surface damage would hinder performance, albeit slight.
 
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United787
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 8):
Some slight differences
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 10):
Pretty unfair comparison imho

I know...sarcasm...but anxious, their ramp up time seems to be excessive regardless...
 
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bikerthai
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):
Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?

For the 787 fuselage. The composite is a laminate type. Small damage to the skin (like a hole) can be covered with an aluminum sheet (or composite sheet) bolted on with fasteners (and sealant/adhesivve).

If the damage include the stringer and shear ties, then the repair may be a little more complicated.

I think there was a presentation floating out there to show how they were planning to do it.

bikerthai
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474218
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 4):
If they decide to do a standard bolt-on repair, then the cost would be almost the same.
If they decide to do a "bonded" repair, then it could be more costly.

I think you ill find just the opposite!

Bonded repairs are cheaper!

The fasteners used in a bolt-on repair being the most costly item!

A bonded repair may take longer, because of cure time.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):
Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?

Yes!
 
amccann
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):
Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?

Composites are not my specialty, but with the limited 787 structural knowledge I have, you can not use a bolt on repair on the 787. A few of the critical design features of the 787 are large single piece fuselage sections and integral (co-bonded) fuselage stringers, eliminating tens of skin joints and thousands of fasteners and therefore reducing weight and drag. Without bolt holes already in the fuselage (to join fuselage sections and stringers) to perform a bolt on repair on the 787 would require bolt holes to be drilled and drilling composites is a BIG problem. Drilling cured composites can de-laminate layers or fray fibers resulting in significant strength loss around the bolt hole.
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TheSonntag
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:54 pm

This has probably not been tested in Boeing-training. So better test it before the inaugural service. After all, these things happen. No big deal if you ask me.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 7):
Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...

ANA has auctioned seats for the inaugural 787 flight...would you want to go forward with that plan without *two* service-ready aircraft in case one goes tech?

Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):

Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?

Yes.

Quoting amccann (Reply 16):
Composites are not my specialty, but with the limited 787 structural knowledge I have, you can not use a bolt on repair on the 787.

You can.

Quoting amccann (Reply 16):
Without bolt holes already in the fuselage (to join fuselage sections and stringers) to perform a bolt on repair on the 787 would require bolt holes to be drilled and drilling composites is a BIG problem.

It's not that big deal...the OEM's do it all the time during initial build and all repair shops know how to do it because you have to do it to maintain many of today's components (nacelles, control surfaces, flap fairings, etc.).

Tom.
 
707lvr
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:37 pm

It's clear from this thread that the 787 will be under tremendous scrutiny. No surprise there. We are talking about composites and repairs when it was only an an engine cowling getting scraped. I wonder how many of us half-expected the second paragraph in the story to begin, "Sadly, the aircraft will be a write-off ... "  
 
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bikerthai
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting amccann (Reply 16):
Drilling cured composites can de-laminate layers or fray fibers resulting in significant strength loss around the bolt hole.

True. You need a sharp bit when drilling in CFRP. And that bit won't stay sharp for long.

On the other hand, you don't need to de-bur every single hole in the CFRP because you don't have to worry about crack propragation.  

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cmf
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
ANA has auctioned seats for the inaugural 787 flight...would you want to go forward with that plan without *two* service-ready aircraft in case one goes tech?

SQ did. Had many more seats sold too  
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yellowtail
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:52 pm

come on you guys....ANA is really testing this thing including Boeings guarantees on ramp rash etc
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Daleaholic
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:44 pm

Plenty of factors could've caused this incident. Just one of those things which happens from time to time at an airport, it's just unfortunate that on this day it was the 787! Sounds like the damage is merely cosmetic, nothing to worry about!  
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FlyingHollander
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:45 pm

Is it just me or have there been a lot of these type of incidents lately? It seems to me that people are handling these very expensive machines with little care.
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lightsaber
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:21 pm

What's the fuss, from the OP link: "Everything was fine. There was only some surface damage, and the aircraft was back in operation on schedule," said the spokesman.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 24):
Is it just me or have there been a lot of these type of incidents lately? It seems to me that people are handling these very expensive machines with little care.

There have always been a large number of the incidents. What has changed is the number of standby aircraft.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 22):
come on you guys....ANA is really testing this thing including Boeings guarantees on ramp rash etc

  

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 19):
It's clear from this thread that the 787 will be under tremendous scrutiny.

And the A380 wasn't?   

I'm afraid some is A vs. B 'payback.'   I'd rather go into the aircraft performance and such... But in a way these threads are the economic lifeline of airliners.net.

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srbmod
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:23 pm

Thankfully in this case, it was an engine inlet cowling that suffered surface damage. This sort of thing is probably the most common thing that happens when part of an a/c hits the jetway. For all we know, the jetway could have been left in the wrong position by the gate agent(s) that worked the previous flight from that gate (I've seen this happen on the ramp on numerous occasions, but thankfully the only result of this was a brief delay bringing in the a/c into the gate. But at the end of the day, the tow team should have been paying closer attention to the objects in the gate area as they were bringing the a/c into the gate. The wingwalker on the left side (assuming wingwalkers were used, as I've seen tow teams pull a/c into gates without the use of wingwalkers) definitely should have been paying attention in regards to the location of the jetway.
 
simpilot459
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:52 am

Quoting amccann (Reply 16):
drilling composites is a BIG problem.

Can't be that big since there are thousands of drilled holes throughout the 787. They don't glue those fuselage sections together.
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Navigator
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:41 am

Quoting amccann (Reply 16):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):
Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?

Composites are not my specialty, but with the limited 787 structural knowledge I have, you can not use a bolt on repair on the 787. A few of the critical design features of the 787 are large single piece fuselage sections and integral (co-bonded) fuselage stringers, eliminating tens of skin joints and thousands of fasteners and therefore reducing weight and drag. Without bolt holes already in the fuselage (to join fuselage sections and stringers) to perform a bolt on repair on the 787 would require bolt holes to be drilled and drilling composites is a BIG problem. Drilling cured composites can de-laminate layers or fray fibers resulting in significant strength loss around the bolt hole.

This is what I learnt before about the composite structure on the 787. One of the major problems with using composite was how to do repairs without having to switch fuselage sections and repairing them in a factory.

This was a major area of concern for Boeing. You could not just do a standard bolt-on repair from what I learnt then. It would require special procedures. How did they solve this?
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MadameConcorde
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):

SQ did. Had many more seats sold too

3 Business seats were auctioned off on Yahoo Japan for Japanese residents only.
3 Business seats were auctioned off on eBay open to bidders worldwide.

One pair and one single each time. Proceeds willl go to a charity in Japan dealing with environmental causes.

All the other passengers were picked in the lottery opened to Japan residents only - not forgetting the Media and a number of ANA guests. I heard that Tom Lee the same passenger who flew on the fist 747 flight will be on board too - he was on the A380 inaugural. He had to pay for his own Economy package.

I had registered for the ebay seats and was an early bidder in the auctions for the pair of business class seats on ebay. Bids went way too high for my purse. The single seat went for about twice the price of the pair. Go figure. I know the buyer. He was on the first Singapore Airlines A380 Sydney to Singapore inaugural flight with a Suite. He may have grabbed the 3 seats on ebay. I am not sure.

I was contacted by the WSJ for an interview and told them I did not win anything so I sent them out to contact the winner which they did.

The aircraft doing the package inaugural flights to HKG will be diffferent from the aircraft doing the first flight to Frankfurt. I hope the ANA Chief pilot will be doing the flight. I would be happy if Mike Carricker be part of the flight though I doubt it.
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tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:14 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
One of the major problems with using composite was how to do repairs without having to switch fuselage sections and repairing them in a factory.

It's not that big a deal...we've had carbon composites in aerostructures (mostly nacelles, flight controls, and fairings) for decades...the repair techniques are the same. The 787 just has a lot more areas where you can apply existing repair techniques.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
You could not just do a standard bolt-on repair from what I learnt then.

According to Boeing, you can now.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
It would require special procedures. How did they solve this?

They claim to be using the same bolted repairs as are in the SRM for aluminum airplanes, and for the 777 empennage:
http://www.compositesworld.com/artic...-composite-repair-builds-on-basics

Tom.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:54 am

Any update on the damaged engine inlet cowl?

Boeing 787 GEnx Engine – Inlet cowl, fan cowl, thrust reverser, centerbody and nozzle, engine integration
Trent 1000 engine - Inlet cowl, fan cowl, thrust reverser, centerbody and nozzle, engine integration

http://www.goodrich.com/Goodrich/Bus...tructures/Markets/Large-Commercial

I suppose they must have it fixed by now.

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
randomstriker
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:47 pm

From:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai...tll-polish-out---ana-bumps-fi.html

From FlightGlobal.com "It'll polish out - ANA bumps first 787"


They probably had to use a scanning electron microscope to generate the inset magnification  

[Edited 2011-10-24 10:53:45]

[Edited 2011-10-24 10:54:30]
 
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bikerthai
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:36 pm

Quoting randomstriker (Reply 32):

LOL. And we all are debating the merit of composite repair.

Almost like having a pimple on prom night. Everyone will look for it now.

 

bikerthai
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747400sp
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:16 pm

Looks like some, ANA ground crew man or woman, should be fired!
 
brons2
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RE: ANA 787 Hits Boarding Bridge

Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:20 pm

Everyone gets sad when they get their first scratch on their new car...err plane.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.

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