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New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:54 pm

This is a continuation thread of part 27 which can be found here: New Frontier/Republic Part 27.

Please feel free to join the discussion in this new thread.


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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:14 pm

I see the other thread just got locked - although my post is there it is threatened with deletion - so I'll repost it here:

Quote:
Quoting mcg (Reply 250):
Frontier needs a leader, I hope the COO turns out to be a good one.

Arguably, yes, although I'd stress it is a secondary position, and a number of the naysayers - on the fixed fee side - are dismissing the role as "just a puppet of BB." Well - duh!

I think the most important thing, in terms of perception, is the separation of Frontier from Republic (of which the COO position is integral but secondary).

Perception has been a great problem all along. SM had just led the troops through an extraordinary battle - Chapter 11 - and they were fired up, ready to take on the world - as a stand-alone airline. Many felt slapped in the face that they were not to be stand--alone.

Even worse - that they were to be a subsidiary of a "regional" master and not based at DEN.

That perception was much wider than just at Frontier. BB is "just a regional" CEO, it was said, what does he know about running a real airline?

There were other perceptions that didn't help - the CW that DEN could not support three hubbing airlines and the over-riding perception that against Southwest, Frontier cannot win. Certainly, the Denver Post subscribed to this - "DIA planning for Frontier's departure" - and who knows how much damage that did?

It is interesting to see Ms. Day, at DIA, come out - at last - with a spirited defense of the three airline hub.

How do these perceptions change the financial reality, I hear you cry? Could they have changed it? I dunno - but they didn't help.

Did BB make mistakes? Sure did, and the greatest of those may be not understanding this subjective territory, but he was coming from a position of strength and rationality.

The move away from DEN compounded this and SM's resignation was pretty much the last straw - and I'm not just talking about staff morale, but about general perception. I criticized SM for his timing, here, and was pretty much accused of heresy to the Conventional Wisdom.

Nor was it just at DEN. I was quite shocked at the many in Milwaukee reacted to Frontier. RAH was perceived as the Midwest Killer, and Airtran somehow seen as the White Knight, riding in to help MKE. I stopped reading the Milwaukee press.

On the fixed fee side, many perceived the acquisition to be their way out of "just flying regionals" and became extremely bitter when that door seemed to be closing, the war between the two pilots groups has been sophomoric and probably destructive.

At least part of the present IBT action is based on that perception - that the Frontier pilots think their crap doesn't stink and they have to be brought down a peg or two, brought into line.

The IBT does not object to the idea of give-backs in return for shares - it has just negotiated that for the f/a's. It's the (they think) inherent concept of the FAPA people being "special" that drives them crazy.

The IBT action has been, at least in the short term, destructive, and has the potential to delay the separation. Hopefully, BB's wily financial brain may find ways around it.

And yet there is a wide school of (fixed fee) thought that believes it isn't destructive, presumably in defense of their union, and that the action didn't drive the $70 million away. Well, talk to the market.

Could the hybrid have worked? We'll never know. If oil had stayed at the price it was at the time the bid was made, then, at least theoretically, yes.

And yet - and yet - for all the many negatives, Frontier is largely a smooth running airline operationally, #1 at DEN for on time last month. The Airbus fleet is profitable at DEN and the tough, really tough, decisions have been taken at MKE.

The route map is developing beautifully - I think - and the fleet will eventually be composed of larger aircraft, not smaller. - "real" aircraft - LOL.

Those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it, and Frontier has not been able to find its consistently profitable way in the world since about 2003.

Winter, always historically Frontier's weakest time, may be turned around and ultimately, if it is part of Frontier's future to be a very much bigger version of USA#000 with a huge - majority - hunk of scheduled service and a very much larger fleet, I really can't see the problem with that, except for airline elitists. It is certainly preferable to me than the decision Airtran made - to dump its future into Southwest's lap.

I've said I don't know if BB can pull this off - it's a tough ask in this economic climate - but I'm not betting against him.

I can't think why anyone would bet against him. Well, I can think why, but I prefer not to go there. .

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:00 pm

Just to give a clearer understanding of the Apple Vacations contract, I've always used DEN-LIR as an example of the "in conjunction" routes, but there are more - IND-CUN, for example, and SLC-CUN, as are several (all?) of the DEN-Mexico routes.

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/ind-indianapolis/

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/slc-salt_lake_city/

Many of these are long standing and they are routes for which Frontier holds a scheduled authority.

Nor are these unique to Frontier. Airtran holds a MKE-CUN scheduled authority but it is shown on the Apple Vacations charter roster as well - along with other routes for which Airtran does not have an authority, and thus does not offer as scheduled:

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/mke-milwaukee/

Same with Sun Country at MSP:

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/msp-minneapolis/

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:43 pm

It's been a quite journey with F9 these last couple of years with BB, but then, it's been quite a journey throughout with F9 since it's beginning.

After reading all of the pros and cons of RAH and BB in the latter part of the last thread - it seems that the cons are becoming more prevalent as of late. With F9 loosing all the $$$ that they did last quarter surely that gives them plenty of ammo. It even may start converting a lot of those who are pro into cons.

I personally have to give a lot of credit to BB for all of the things he has achieved, and recognize the fact that really nobody has had to do what he's attempting to do - taking what no one can argue is a successful fixed-fee operation, albeit an operation in an industry with a current drawback that many may consider as having a limited future, and tackling this drawback with some outside-the-box-thinking in acquiring two (in varying degrees) struggling established branded airlines as a solution of the future. My biggest credit of BB is that he at least saving many, many jobs. Without RAH, it's anyone's guess where most of these new RAH employees would be now. And some can say WN here, but WN's intention was to shut F9 down. Conclude for yourselves where many of those F9 currently employed would be now with that scenario. And those in Milwaukee? We can discuss and debate this here, but my gut feeling concludes that at least for now that they are currently better off with RAH. Of course, I'm sure there will be those in disagreement, and I'll listen.

But I think that I've also been basically one of those who had been a quiet, early-on "con" of BB and a lot of his actions (although some here may have recognized this), continually keeping my fingers crossed that all will work out, most importantly for all of the employees who probably go paycheck to paycheck to earn themselves and their families as best they can some sort of quality lifestyle (whatever that can mean to anyone).

There are a number of things that BB did with branded that felt somewhat counter-intuitive to me at the time he did them. These will be avoided for now, since these things have already been discussed and debated ad-nauseam here in the last 27 threads, and I read and respect everyone's posting and opinion, and in some instances minds have been changed, and in others not. And generally it's not one specific instance, but rather the many instances, that in sum can add up to branded loosing $$$, and to the degree of the loss.

Now at this point (and also with the benefit of hindsight), RAH is intending to spin-off F9 (with supposedly YX merged in) into a its own separate entity, so to speak. Speculation has been that this had been the plan all along, and it per se strikes as a good idea. But with the latter, I have to question if even that in itself, could have been done differently? Of course, I'm not BB or the RAH board, and don't have the mounds of information that is available in-company. I'm not even that familiar with the whole "Wall Street process" in which companies with shares operate on such level. But questions such as - was it necessary to bring F9 (and to whatever extent was left of YX) into the RAH fold to begin with, and now have problems with the SLI, SLA, unions, and all of those other 'initials" entities that they are having problems with? BB created a 'fence' around F9, but now is this fence strong enough? Could a much better, stronger, more well defined fence have been made? Could a merged F9/YX been able on its own to have had its own publicly traded stock from the outset of bankruptcy, with RAH being the sole owners? I know the idea was to remake and grow these 'divisions' into profitability, and then spin-off and sell something appealing to investors, but could this whole thing have been structured differently without first bringing F9/YX into RAH, creating all sorts of problems while in this fold (I don't deny there may be some benefits as well) and then create the separation? Starting with separation maybe could have seemed more sensible if separation was the intention all along. So I guess my thoughts now are - did maybe BB and the RAH board maybe miss something along the way here in terms of how they proceeded in this aspect, and could have there been a better way? And would a lot of the many problems encountered not have been problems?

I don't claim to know at all the answers to the above. But this is now something else that looking back (hindsight is great you gotta admit) make me wonder that if (a big IF) better paths were maybe available, could it be because they were either unknown for lack of due diligence, or because it's possible bad decisions were made here? Or was how RAH and BB proceeded basically the only way that was available to them immediately per bankruptcy/post-bankruptcy?

And this is solely my opinion, but observing BB, I sometimes wonder (well actually, more than wonder ) if he can too be penny-wise and pound-foolish? I'll listen.....  

[Edited 2011-10-20 17:18:42]
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:09 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
RAH is intending to spin-off F9 (with supposedly YX merged in) into a its own separate entity,

I don't see any outside investor wanting a spun-off F9 if RAH or BB are still in control.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
the CW that DEN could not support three hubbing airlines

The CW is right. None of the three is making money. Some people would argue WN is, but I seriously doubt it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
the war between the two pilots groups has been sophomoric and probably destructive.

I think it is pretty clear that BB orchestrated that fight. He knew that signing a deal with F9's pilots days before the union was eliminated would create this kind of fight. He did it on purpose. I actually would call it a master stroke. I've said that BB is good at a few things and one of them is keeping labor fighting with each other instead of management. So, from a shareholder perspective it was very well done. It's very bad for morale and the employees, but again that's the balance of managing a low margin business. I don't fault him for that. I fault him for his stewardship of the revenue producing side of F9. He is firmly in control of the cost side.

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I can't think why anyone would bet against him. Well, I can think why, but I prefer not to go there. .
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 4):
I don't see any outside investor wanting a spun-off F9 if RAH or BB are still in control.

The stock price shows that Wall Street is betting against him. They are doing that based on earnings and his stated plan for the future. It will be interesting to see what happens with Wall Street if he makes a U-turn and attempts to fundamentally change F9 as an airline into something else. I personally believe it won't work without a new credible management team as I have stated.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
what he's attempting to do - taking what no one can argue is a successful fixed-fee operation, albeit an operation in an industry with a current drawback that many may consider as having a limited future, and tackling this drawback with some outside-the-box-thinking in acquiring two (in varying degrees) struggling established branded airlines as a solution of the future.
Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
Now at this point (and also with the benefit of hindsight), RAH is intending to spin-off F9 (with supposedly YX merged in) into a its own separate entity, so to speak. Speculation has been that this had been the plan all along, and it per se strikes as a good idea.

And yet these two statements are contradictory -- the plan was to diversify RAH away from the fixed-fee business, but the plan all along was to spin off the branded business and return to fixed-fee? Huh?

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
Could a merged F9/YX been able on its own to have had its own publicly traded stock from the outset of bankruptcy, with RAH being the sole owners?

No; how can a stock be publicly traded with only one owner? There are certainly shares of Frontier Airlines Holdings which exist today, but Republic is the sole owner of those shares. Even privately-owned companies often have shares -- Facebook is a good example of this.

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I was quite shocked at the many in Milwaukee reacted to Frontier. RAH was perceived as the Midwest Killer, and Airtran somehow seen as the White Knight, riding in to help MKE. I stopped reading the Milwaukee press.

Why was that a shock at all? BB and his team were at the helm when the old Midwest Airlines was shut down and its flight crews were let go, and he and his team made the decision to drop the Midwest brand as well. Why would the reaction to that in Milwaukee be positive?

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
The move away from DEN compounded this and SM's resignation was pretty much the last straw - and I'm not just talking about staff morale, but about general perception. I criticized SM for his timing, here, and was pretty much accused of heresy to the Conventional Wisdom.

Loyalty is a two-way street. If SM didn't feel that he was getting the right consideration and respect from BB, then he owed it to himself and his career to step aside. BB made the decision to run the branded operation from IND, and that may not have been what SM signed up for when he agreed to stay on originally. Or he may have chafed at having decisions overridden from IND.

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
On the fixed fee side, many perceived the acquisition to be their way out of "just flying regionals" and became extremely bitter when that door seemed to be closing, the war between the two pilots groups has been sophomoric and probably destructive.

At least part of the present IBT action is based on that perception - that the Frontier pilots think their crap doesn't stink and they have to be brought down a peg or two, brought into line.

And yet BB sought to take advantage of the division between the pilot groups in negotiating the concessionary agreement with FAPA. He could have worked to try to smooth things over between the groups, but he took the route of extracting cost savings. And the IBT was already angry with BB over the decision to "deactivate" one seat on the E190's -- so why should there be any great surprise over their decision to throw a monkey wrench into his scheme?

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
It's the (they think) inherent concept of the FAPA people being "special" that drives them crazy.

It's not that FAPA is "special." They (the IBT) have a contract stating that all pilots employed by RAH subsidiaries must be on the same seniority list, and the Frontier pilots along with BB are trying to subvert that requirement in their contract. And a 10-year captain at F9 makes over 50% more than a 10-year E190 captain at YX/S5/RP, so the financial motive is obvious.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 4):
I don't see any outside investor wanting a spun-off F9 if RAH or BB are still in control.

At least, not unless/until the branded operation is back to solid, consistent profitability.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 4):
I don't see any outside investor wanting a spun-off F9 if RAH or BB are still in control.

Investors come in all shapes and sizes and for all sorts of different reasons.

As one example, with full access to the books TPG put hundreds of millions into Midwest, and continued to do so, which, it is now clear, was not, seemingly, the best investment.

And I can't predict the future, but I assume that, as of now, RAH and BB will remain in control.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-21 10:31:36]
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 6):
And yet these two statements are contradictory -- the plan was to diversify RAH away from the fixed-fee business, but the plan all along was to spin off the branded business and return to fixed-fee? Huh?

Yes, I have seen the same logic posted here before. It makes no sense. I would say there were two possible strategies at play.

1) The stated strategy which was to diversify the company away from fixed fee and that is quite possibly true, although it has failed miserably because branded is a sink hole endangering the part of the business it was meant to protect.
2) The intention was to help F9 and YX survive as potential customers for RJs under CPA. So, the plan would be to buy them, make them profitable, sign them up to long term CPA, and then sell or float the companies thus creating customers for the core business. This is quite possible, but that strategy has also failed miserably since BB has realized that the small E-Jets can't make money at an LCC (or possibly anywhere else).

Quoting ScottB (Reply 6):
Loyalty is a two-way street. If SM didn't feel that he was getting the right consideration and respect from BB, then he owed it to himself and his career to step aside.

Sources told me that they fought loudly all the time behind closed doors and I've forgotten the date now, but there was a final blowout and they did not speak to each other after that. The bottom line is that they could not work together and I usually assume it is the higher up who sends the underling packing particularly when it is clear that it took SM time to find something else. SM is the kind of person where you can see the veins throbbing in his forehead when he was about to explode. BB clearly was not going to be bullied by SM and probably did bullying of his own. OTOH, I'm betting that if we knew what they were arguing about, most of the people who read this thread would have sided with SM in the argument that finally broke them apart.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 4):
I don't see any outside investor wanting a spun-off F9 if RAH or BB are still in control.

Investors come in all shapes and sizes and for all sorts of different reasons.

Investors that don't intend to make a profit are just going to prolong the agony. They need an activist shareholder who will support positive change and block dumb decisions.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
Now at this point (and also with the benefit of hindsight), RAH is intending to spin-off F9 (with supposedly YX merged in) into a its own separate entity, so to speak. Speculation has been that this had been the plan all along, and it per se strikes as a good idea. But with the latter, I have to question if even that in itself, could have been done differently?

Just to add some clarity to that, Sean Menke and Ted Christie spent several months looking for money at the highest levels for a stand alone Frontier. Marshall Huebner, one of America's most respected attorneys, of Davis Polk and Wardwell, one of America's most respected law firms, opened a lot of doors.

And there was no money - none.

There was one offer - Perseus - which was a bit of a joke and would have left the stand alone Frontier with no effective capital. Indeed, it was so far out of left field that I have sometimes speculated if it was a set-up, to force RAH to show its hand. Which, as I predicted at the time, is what RAH did.

The only two other offers - RAH and Southwest - were both acquisitions.

I'm also very wary of the term "spin-off" - which might imply that RAH is trying to ditch Frontier. I don't see it that way at all.

I am also amused that this website seems to have become a financial website rather than a site for airline enthusiasts. Perhaps I should have stayed at the much better informed Yahoo Finance site.  

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-21 12:21:37]
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Perhaps I should have stayed at the much better informed Yahoo Finance site.

Yes, Yahoo! Finance's message boards have such well-informed users.   But if finance is unimportant, I suppose it's unimportant as to whether RAH lines up additional financing for Frontier or if the pilots do or don't take concessions.

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Sean Menke and Ted Christie spent several months looking for money at the highest levels for a stand alone Frontier. Marshall Huebner, one of America's most respected attorneys, of Davis Polk and Wardwell, one of America's most respected law firms, opened a lot of doors.

And there was no money - none.

And history might be showing why that money just wasn't there.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
I am also amused that this website seems to have become a financial website rather than a site for airline enthusiasts. Perhaps I should have stayed at the much better informed Yahoo Finance site.  

Its also full of brilliant CEO minds. Me, Im a simple pilot and observer. Nothing more. I have my ideas, but Im still quite content to watch what happens. It always seems interesting to me. I gave a report in a class over Frontier/Republic in November 2009, just after the Frontier deal was closed. Im preparing another for a different class next month, two years after the original. I am amazed at the difference between the two. Much has changed over that time, and the strategy is included in that. I cannot believe how many different actions have been taken by management. Many this year have been incredibly drastic. Im not sure what else I would ask of this management team honestly.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
Yes, Yahoo! Finance's message boards have such well-informed users.   But if finance is unimportant, I suppose it's unimportant as to whether RAH lines up additional financing for Frontier or if the pilots do or don't take concessions.

And another one putting words in my mouth.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
And history might be showing why that money just wasn't there.

Um - that was my point.   

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:24 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I fault him for his stewardship of the revenue producing side of F9. He is firmly in control of the cost side.

This is a critical point. Compare F9 fares to almost anyone else, including WN, and you'll find that they can frequently be more than 50% less than the competition. For example, one way to Denver "Business Select" on WN is 299.00 plus tax. F9 "Classic Plus" ranges from 99.00 to 134.00. The flights might be full, but every flight will still lose money. The other negative side of this policy is that it encourages the legacy carriers to react very strongly when F9 tries to enter a new market. MCI-MSP is an example. No legacy wants a carrier to enter a lucrative market charging 29.00 when their lowest fare might be 200.00. They will do whatever is necessary to force them out and it's happened to F9 many times.

[Edited 2011-10-22 05:26:01]
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I fault him for his stewardship of the revenue producing side of F9. He is firmly in control of the cost side.

This was my point in the previous thread. BB knows the 'hard' (operations) side of the business but has failed to grasp the 'soft' (strategy) side. The CPA side didn't have to worry about marketing, revenue mangement, network planning, alliances, etc. Their customers just told them where and when to fly and that was it.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
I was quite shocked at the many in Milwaukee reacted to Frontier. RAH was perceived as the Midwest Killer, and Airtran somehow seen as the White Knight, riding in to help MKE. I stopped reading the Milwaukee press.

You need to understand that Midwest was a source of pride in Milwaukee for 25 years. Milwaukee is a medium sized city with a small town state of mind. When Airtran insisted on a hostile takeover of Midwest, the claws came out on the people of Milwaukee. Most were against the Midwest name disappearing. When Midwest was on its last gasps of oxygen, Republic came in and bought them making promises they would revitalize Midwest. Not long after that Republic bought Frontier. Everyone here saw the writing on the wall and knew that Midwest was toast and BB's promises for Midwest and MKE rang hollow. On the other hand Airtran kept their promise and built a hub in MKE. So in a nutshell that is basically what happened. Although Airtran is not on the hook to keep their promise anymore because in actuality they exist in name only. All in all, the Milwaukee media writes very little about Frontier now. Not like they use to for Midwest.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting MKENut (Reply 15):
You need to understand that Midwest was a source of pride in Milwaukee for 25 years.

Oh, indeed, I understand that very clearly.

I don't understand why the pilot fury, for example, was directed at BB and not at TH who had invited Republic in. I do understand that Conventional Wisdom is a powerful thing.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 15):
When Midwest was on its last gasps of oxygen, Republic came in and bought them making promises they would revitalize Midwest. Not long after that Republic bought Frontier.

Just keeping the record straight, the bid for Frontier was announced before RAH bought Midwest.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-22 10:42:48]
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:56 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 13):
This is a critical point. Compare F9 fares to almost anyone else, including WN, and you'll find that they can frequently be more than 50% less than the competition.

Every itinerary I've ever priced on Frontier has been higher than the competition. Every one. Having said that, I'm a small sample, but I've tried to fly them and simply can't justify it based on price. Maybe next time I can.

Interestingly, WN is often the lowest price. So I'm not sure that your example - or mine - are really all that accurate given the myriad of factors.

Quoting azstar (Reply 13):
The flights might be full, but every flight will still lose money.

I think that falls under the category of conjecture. While they have overall losses, certainly there are a number of flights that are profitable for them.

Quoting azstar (Reply 13):
The other negative side of this policy is that it encourages the legacy carriers to react very strongly when F9 tries to enter a new market. MCI-MSP is an example. No legacy wants a carrier to enter a lucrative market charging 29.00 when their lowest fare might be 200.00. They will do whatever is necessary to force them out and it's happened to F9 many times.

Again, in all fairness to Frontier, many airlines offer introductory rates when starting up a new route. I sincerely doubt that Frontier is offering consistent $29 fares on routes that other carriers' lowest fares are in the $200 range. Can it happen? Sure. Is your example in any way representative of what they are doing regularly? Doubtful. If anything, I would think that if this were a legacy, you'd see some of the same things going on. The difference is that Frontier is a weaker carrier and it'smuch easier for an established airline to throw capacity at them in an attempt to force them out. Frontier's a small carrier, and they don't have 5 hubs to support a temporary battle in a place like MCI for long. If I were Delta, I'd be willing to take them on knowing that they can't hold out forever. If this were another legacy, you might see something similar, but I doubt it'd be the full court press you see put onto Frontier.

These are just my opinions, but my own personal experiences and observations have been somewhat different than yours in a general sense.  

-Dave
-Dave
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:44 pm

I suppose what is baffling to me is the idea that Frontier should be somehow immune to the general economic temperature.

Most US airline shares are puddling around at or within coo-eee of their 52 week lows and, in a number of cases, their two year lows, which is where some were at the height of the GFC, and in some cases lower than then.

I very much doubt that United is cutting 11% January capacity at DEN because that capacity is flying profitably.

Europe is standing on the edge of a finacial abyss and BB has thrown in a fascinating tid-bit - he is close to achieving (or has achieved) the lease restructures despite having to deal with some European banks, which banks are almost paralyzed by the present Eurozone financial crisis.

It makes sense to me. I've just had to do a bit of (very tiny) business with a Eurozone country, where they were looking for "relief" from me and at the same time, a bit of (equally tiny) business with Australia - where they have been very much more generous than they needed to be.

Maybe the moral is to try and do more business with Australian banks/finance companies - it;s always been called the Lucky Country.  

I believe BB has also been able to do a deal with Embraer, which will provide some "relief' and yet still see 2 x E190 (new) coming into the fleet next month.

Mostly, I suppose, I puzzled by the idea that the $70 million going walkabout wasn't a considerable problem, especially when it is the CW that no one will lend Frontier money at the moment.

And yet BB is finding ways to replace that money. Ideal solutions? Probably not - but solutions all the same. In this financial climate, whatever works.

mariner
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MKENut
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:42 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
Just keeping the record straight, the bid for Frontier was announced before RAH bought Midwest.

I think you are wrong... Publicly Republic announced the Midwest purchase before going after Frontier in auction.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting MKENut (Reply 19):
Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
Just keeping the record straight, the bid for Frontier was announced before RAH bought Midwest.

I think you are wrong... Publicly Republic announced the Midwest purchase before going after Frontier in auction.

According to the RJET website, they announced their bid for Frontier on June 22, 2009. The next day, they announced their acquisition of Midwest. The YX deal closed on July 31 while the F9 deal closed on October 1.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting MKENut (Reply 19):
I think you are wrong... Publicly Republic announced the Midwest purchase before going after Frontier in auction.

June 22, 2009:

http://www.eturbonews.com/9954/under...blic-airways-buy-frontier-airlines

"Frontier Airlines would become a subsidiary of Republic Airways under a bankruptcy reorganization plan announced Monday afternoon."

The Journal Sentinel article refers to it in this article announcing the purchase of Midwest on June 23, 2009:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/48905032.html

"Republic Airways to buy Midwest Airlines

With the Midwest acquisition, and Republic's disclosure Monday of its plans to buy Denver-based Frontier Airlines for just under $109 million, Republic could end up owning two carriers, along with its business of flying regional routes for large airlines."


Only a day, I grant you, but Frontier was still first.

mariner

edit: Tigerguy - I guess you posted while I was composing. Thanks.

[Edited 2011-10-22 17:25:03]
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Only a day, I grant you, but Frontier was still first.

You are right about the announcement, but Republic owned Midwest before they owned Frontier. Frontier wasn't a sure thing for Republic until Southwest backed out of the bid for Frontier and the bankruptcy court accepted the Republic bid.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting MKENut (Reply 22):
You are right about the announcement, but Republic owned Midwest before they owned Frontier. Frontier wasn't a sure thing for Republic until Southwest backed out of the bid for Frontier and the bankruptcy court accepted the Republic bid.

All true. But the statement I made was simply:

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
Just keeping the record straight, the bid for Frontier was announced before RAH bought Midwest.


It should also be noted that BB had helped keep Midwest out of Chapter 11:

"Republic's role at Midwest has been growing since last fall, when Republic lent financially troubled Midwest $25 million.

That loan helped Midwest avoid Chapter 11 bankruptcy."


So I'm still not sure why he/Republic was seen as the villain of the piece or why that later attached to Frontier.

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
So I'm still not sure why he/Republic was seen as the villain of the piece or why that later attached to Frontier.

Because he replaced all the 717 flying with E-190s using Republic crews instead of bringing in the Midwest crews to do it. If he wanted to be the "savior of Midwest" (maybe he didn't really care or foster that image himself and it was media the media that portrayed that, I don't know) he should have hired the Midwest crews.

Instead it was Republic crews flying aircraft painted in Midwest colors and using the Midwest name. It was outsourcing to lower cost labor and that angered a lot of people especially since Republic crews weren't locals like the Midwest crews were. Also with the economy the way it was and people losing there jobs and watching them get outsourced over seas it was very easy for the general public to understand and relate to the Midwest crews since the same thing was happening to them. Finally it's a small city so I'm sure some of the passengers in MKE are friends with the ex-Midwest crews and heard how they lost their jobs to lower cost labor.

Even though the parking of the 717s wasn't RAH's decision, the replacement with RAH aircraft in Midwest colors and the furloughing of Midwest employees was RAH's decision. You don't lay off people in a smaller community like MKE, replace them with out of town lower cost labor, and then expect the town to embrace you with open arms. That just doesn't happen. Those employees spent decades building Midwest into what it was and to watch someone else pretend to be them obviously stirred up a lot of emotions. It's therefore not surprising at all to see how Republic and BB became the villain.

Honestly it should have been expected and it would have been much better if the Midwest name was put to bed early and Frontier name had been chosen as the new name as soon as the purchase was closed.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:37 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17):
Every itinerary I've ever priced on Frontier has been higher than the competition. Every one. Having said that, I'm a small sample, but I've tried to fly them and simply can't justify it based on price. Maybe next time I can.

My experience has been that F9 is usually competitive to a little cheaper on trips to and from DEN. F9 is usually more expensive on trips that originate and end outside of DEN, i.e. trips that connect through DEN.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 24):
Because he replaced all the 717 flying with E-190s using Republic crews instead of bringing in the Midwest crews to do it.

Well, well, I try to avoid pilot matters, and to some extent you and I agree. But I have some problems with what happened, starting with the fact that it was TH who invited Republic in, and - originally - it was TH and TPG/NWA who were perceived as the villains.

Originally, the pilot anger was not directed at Republic - here is what (Midwest) Captain Schnedorf said:

http://www.eturbonews.com/4777/midwe...age-airlines-deal-republic-airways

Midwest Pilots express outrage at airline's deal with Republic Airways

"This is catastrophic news for our pilot group and for all Midwest employees. Management's plan to replace all but nine of our B-717s with EMB 170s and replace Midwest pilots with Republic pilots will have a devastating impact - raising the number of Midwest pilots who are out of work to approximately 300 of the some 400 pilots who were employed before TPG/NWA purchased the airline earlier this year. Furthermore, management restated its continued intent to wring drastic, draconian concessions from our pilots, holding our very jobs hostage as part of its deal with Republic."

A year ago, CEO Tim Hoeksema stated publicly that the deal with TPG/Northwest would 'be good for our airline, the employees, and the community.' Make no mistake: with this latest deal, Mr. Hoeksema, TPG, and Northwest have revealed their complete disregard for this airline and its employees. Today marks a dark day in the history of Milwaukee, Wisconsin as management has essentially sounded the death knell for Midwest Airlines and the reputation the employees have built for providing the 'best care in the air.'"


I do understand that transference of anger is a powerful thing, it has to have a focus, but I also recall that Midwest had lost half a billion dollars in 2008, and that, if it was to survive in any form, costs had to be dramatically reduced. How many airlines went to the wall in 2008?

But it is one thing for the pilots involved and/or perhaps the good folk of Milwaukee to feel this way, it's fairly understandable. I'm not sure why anyone looking at the situation with any degree of objectivity would feel that same negativity.

More curiously - to me - since it was Airtran who set this ball rolling, I'm not sure how Airtran became to be perceived as the White MKE Knight.

Quoting norcal (Reply 24):
Honestly it should have been expected and it would have been much better if the Midwest name was put to bed early and Frontier name had been chosen as the new name as soon as the purchase was closed.

Yes, I agree, it should have been expected and yes, I agree - with hindsight - the Midwest name should have been put to bed on Day 1 of the acquisition.

But that requires a fair degree of rationality, which as you have eloquently described, did not exist.

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
More curiously - to me - since it was Airtran who set this ball rolling, I'm not sure how Airtran became to be perceived as the White MKE Knight.

I don't see Airtran portrayed the white knight here... Other than they opened a pilot base in MKE and hired some Midwest pilots. They also kept a promise to build up MKE as a hub city. As for the flying public, once the Midwest Brand was axed, loyalty left with it.... It didn't transfer to the Frontier Brand in other words.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting MKENut (Reply 27):
I don't see Airtran portrayed the white knight here... Other than they opened a pilot base in MKE and hired some Midwest pilots. They also kept a promise to build up MKE as a hub city.

All I can go by is what i read in the Milwaukee press - and, to a much lesser extent, what I read here.

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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
Originally, the pilot anger was not directed at Republic - here is what (Midwest) Captain Schnedorf said:

That doesn't surprise me but BB has a face where as a company like TPG is largely unknown (and more importantly not an airline) by the public and therefore probably more difficult to direct anger at than it is at BB and Republic. Furthermore I think there is a bit of a "musical chairs" element to it and BB was the one at the fore front when the music stopped. So even though he didn't make the decision to start parking the 717s he accelerated the returns and more importantly was at the helm when the last one was returned. People remembered that.

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
But that requires a fair degree of rationality, which as you have eloquently described, did not exist.

Personally I would have put the name to bed from the start. At the time I remember how emotional the pilot boards were over this whole thing and I just remembered thinking that it would likely blow up in Republic's face given the smaller nature of MKE. I imagined Midwest crew members running into fellow community members at grocery stores, movies, around town etc. and the topic of Midwest coming up:

Local: "Oh hey I heard Midwest was bought out and you have new ownership, what do you think about the new owners?"

Ex-Midwest pilot/FA: "Well after 25 years with the company they laid me and everyone else off and brought in a bunch of less experienced lower paid crews to fly aircraft painted with our name. Midwest exists in name only"

Local: "Wow that's terrible"

And like I said before Americans were tired of bail outs, outsourcing, lay offs, benefit cuts, pay cuts, etc. It's easy to see why MKE quickly turned against Republic and BB. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Ex-Midwest crews told their friends to fly Air Tran instead of Midwest. If I were in their shoes I would have told everyone I know to fly Air Tran. To lose your job after so many years and try and start over is difficult. I know the typical A-net response (not saying you believe this btw, just a general statement) is going to be "well tough sh*t deal with it," but honestly if I was loyal to a company for that long and someone new came in and kicked me to the curb I'd tell my friends and family to stop flying them. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that this occurred.

If Midwest had been a Chicago, NY, or LA based airline the size of the population and the fact that it's less interconnected than a smaller community like MKE could have meant that the Midwest name would have lived on. Frontier had a good reputation at the time so there really wasn't any reason to stick with Midwest. I think BB wanted to try and leverage the Midwest brand to generate higher yields out of MKE but Midwest was more than a name, it was the people and as soon as he lost the people he lost the power of that brand.

[Edited 2011-10-23 13:03:28]
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
That doesn't surprise me but BB has a face where as a company like TPG is largely unknown (and more importantly not an airline) by the public and therefore probably more difficult to direct anger at BB and Republic than TPG.

We're just going round in circles, because I understand that, I understand all the subjectivity. I am more disturbed by the lack of objectivity on the part of (uninvolved) observers.

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
Personally I would have put the name to bed from the start.

Maybe, but, subjectivity again, I think the reaction would have been nuclear - that BB killed Midwest without even trying.

It would have taken a number of financial benefits with it, such as the Delta deal. At that stage of the game, Midwest needed all the help it could get.

Still - its all water under the bridge now and Captain Schnedorf was right.

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JBo
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 24):
Because he replaced all the 717 flying with E-190s using Republic crews instead of bringing in the Midwest crews to do it. If he wanted to be the "savior of Midwest" (maybe he didn't really care or foster that image himself and it was media the media that portrayed that, I don't know) he should have hired the Midwest crews.

Even though the parking of the 717s wasn't RAH's decision, the replacement with RAH aircraft in Midwest colors and the furloughing of Midwest employees was RAH's decision.

Honestly it should have been expected and it would have been much better if the Midwest name was put to bed early and Frontier name had been chosen as the new name as soon as the purchase was closed.

To follow up with Mariner's response, the replacing of Midwest aircraft with Republic aircraft began well before Midwest was sold to RAH. It was Uncle Timmy's decision to make that move.

When the deal was originally announced, the intentions as publicly stated were that the Republic flying would be temporary until Midwest could get the E170s onto the YX certificate (this was before the E190s were in the picture). The problem was that Midwest and the pilots were unwilling to agree on a payscale for the E170, as the Midwest pilots were unwilling to work for regional wages, and you can't make money with an E170 when paying your crews mainline wages.

The fate of the 717s had also already been sealed before RAH took over Midwest. The decision to return the 717s to Boeing was made under Uncle Timmy's watch as well, so it was only a matter of time before you had an airline with no aircraft.

As for hiring Midwest pilots into Republic to fly the E-jets, I'm sure job offers have been made, and for all we know there may be some former Midwest pilots in the RAH system. But the overall issue with hiring Midwest pilots into Republic is that there are some who don't want to take the cut in seniority or pay to cross over and start as a new-hire, and integrating Midwest Seniority into RAH Seniority opens another can of union drama.

If it were as easy as saying to former Midwest pilots "Hey, come fly for us and we'll pay you what you made at Midwest!" then yeah, I'm sure we'd have a ton of former Midwest pilots flying the E-jets around. Unfortunately, it's far from that simple. Money sucks.

Midwest was dying and, for the most part, pretty much dead by the time RAH took control of the company and Brian Bedford took the helm. For those who say that Midwest should have been put to sleep the moment the acquisition was announced, remember that RAH didn't acquire Frontier until about six months after they acquired Midwest. Sure, RAH could have announced upon acquisiton of Frontier that Midwest would be intregrated into Frontier, but at the time I think Bedford made a smart move from a public and employee relations point of view to not make an immediate decision.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and we can all say coulda/shoulda/woulda about the decisions made regarding Midwest, Frontier, and RAH, but the fact remains that this is where they are. Aside from a handful of blue airplanes flying around, Midwest is gone. Milwaukee is not the hub it once was, and even Frontier has changed in the midst of these changes.

Anybody can throw in the towel and close up shop in the face of adverse circumstances, but the fact that what has taken place with Midwest, Frontier, and Republic is unprecented in this industry, I think it's great that they are at least trying to turn two struggling airlines into one sustainable brand. Trying to do so with the politics of unions and finances and everything else is also impressive.

I do not agree with every decision that has been made thus far, but sometimes there are situations where there are no good decisions to be made. That was the case with Midwest. It had deteriorated to the point where it was a lose-lose situation. RAH and Frontier are not at that point yet. What happens, no one knows, but they're making a go of it and trying to make the most of the challenges this economy keeps handing them.
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:28 pm

[quote=]Well after 25 years with the company they laid me and everyone else off and brought in a bunch of less experienced lower paid crews to fly aircraft painted with our name. Midwest exists in name only[/quote]

Realizing this quote is just something that may may have been part of some conversations around town and not a direct quote from the poster, yet some of those same Midwest employees, and I will say not all of them, continue to act like it is Frontier who did this to them. From pilots, rampers, CS and others, they continue to turn their backs on the F9 employees as if it was the F9 employees who took away all there jobs etc. I hear about it everyday at work from friends who work in the MKE area.
 
MKENut
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
I think BB wanted to try and leverage the Midwest brand to generate higher yields out of MKE but Midwest was more than a name, it was the people and as soon as he lost the people he lost the power of that brand.

Well said! And that is part of what BB lead people to believe in MKE.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
Still - its all water under the bridge now

I agree with you, but on the other hand I was trying to help you gain new insight on the subject. I don't think I was successful at it, but I gave it a try anyway.  
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
I think BB wanted to try and leverage the Midwest brand to generate higher yields out of MKE but Midwest was more than a name, it was the people and as soon as he lost the people he lost the power of that brand.

And as I have tried to point out, the people, certainly the pilots, were "lost" before BB.

More than that, all the reasons for Midwest's problems existed long before BB.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 33):
I agree with you, but on the other hand I was trying to help you gain new insight on the subject. I don't think I was successful at it, but I gave it a try anyway.

And I appreciate the effort. But - as you can see - I am not the only one who holds this view.

mariner
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enilria
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting azstar (Reply 13):
Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I fault him for his stewardship of the revenue producing side of F9. He is firmly in control of the cost side.
This is a critical point. Compare F9 fares to almost anyone else, including WN, and you'll find that they can frequently be more than 50% less than the competition.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 14):
This was my point in the previous thread. BB knows the 'hard' (operations) side of the business but has failed to grasp the 'soft' (strategy) side.

I've been saying the same thing. It couldn't be more obvious. That's why he needs to bring in a new CEO for F9 from a credible LCC or ULCC since that seems to me to be the direction Wall Street will like the most.

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
I suppose what is baffling to me is the idea that Frontier should be somehow immune to the general economic temperature.

Well, most carriers just reported large 3Q profits, except perhaps for some hedging losses and AMR which I'm sure you don't want compared to F9. So, the ill economic wind apparently blows harder on F9...or could it simply be that there are three carriers hubbing in DEN?

BTW, aren't all the E170s slated to go away? I'm hearing they may make another U-turn on that thanks to the F9 fleet plan dart board that they recently upgraded with new technology.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:34 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
Well, most carriers just reported large 3Q profits, except perhaps for some hedging losses and AMR which I'm sure you don't want compared to F9.

I have only three basic responses to anything in this life - (a) yes (b) no and (c) silly. If you want to compare Frontier to AMR, my reaction would be (c).

mariner
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sideflare75
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
BTW, aren't all the E170s slated to go away?

Pretty sure it was all but three and that is how many are left as of now.
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
BTW, aren't all the E170s slated to go away? I'm hearing they may make another U-turn on that thanks to the F9 fleet plan dart board that they recently upgraded with new technology.

That is still the plan
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:08 pm

On the lighter side, Breckenridge, CO made smarter travels top 10 list of the world's most scenic mountain towns. Girdwood, Alaska, located about 50 miles south of ANC; I mentioned in the previous thread also made the list. And a little closer to Mariner, Wanaka South Island New Zealand also made the cut http://www.smartertravel.com/photo-g...l?id=99&source=91&value=2011-10-22 00%3A00%3A00&u=SL8AE7B20D&nl_cs=9265643%3A%3A7629030%3A%3A9376922%3A%3A
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 38):
Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
BTW, aren't all the E170s slated to go away? I'm hearing they may make another U-turn on that thanks to the F9 fleet plan dart board that they recently upgraded with new technology.

That is still the plan
Quoting sideflare75 (Reply 37):
Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
BTW, aren't all the E170s slated to go away?

Pretty sure it was all but three and that is how many are left as of now.

I thought it had been pretty clear that they were all going away to CPA, but apparently the deal on three fell apart and they will remain with F9. You can tell they are committed to a low CASM operation when they have will have three fleets of less than 5 A/C (E145, Q400, E170). Sounds brilliant to me, but there is a simple fix...more labor givebacks to fix the new CASM problem it causes. Enjoy...
 
mikefrommke
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
You can tell they are committed to a low CASM operation when they have will have three fleets of less than 5 A/C (E145, Q400, E170)

You can hardly count the E170 fleet without looking at the entire Republic fleet of them. Same with the E145 and CHQ fleet of them when it comes to the economies of scale argument. All 3 types are on there way out already anyway. What's the big deal if 3 E170s stick around to fill in while the new E190s are delayed?
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 41):
You can hardly count the E170 fleet without looking at the entire Republic fleet of them.

I disagree. It's three more types they need equipment to service at all the stations, it's station training on a bunch of types that are rarely seen, it's inefficient scheduling of tiny fleets, it's gates at airports that can handle the wide variety of airplanes from ground load to jetway capable. It clearly has a CASM impact, but if you want to pretend it is optimal then go ahead. It's just more treatment of F9 as a used car lot for whatever leftovers are in the Republic inventory.
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I thought it had been pretty clear that they were all going away to CPA, but apparently the deal on three fell apart and they will remain with F9. You can tell they are committed to a low CASM operation when they have will have three fleets of less than 5 A/C (E145, Q400, E170). Sounds brilliant to me, but there is a simple fix...more labor givebacks to fix the new CASM problem it causes. Enjoy...

There was never a firm deal for the three that I am aware aware of. 14 were for DL, and they are working on shopping out the other three into CPA, or selling them. They will not stay with Frontier very long. The Q400 has a limited life with Frontier, and seems to me a very plausible way to generate some of the cash that would have come from the $70 million without the IBT suit. E145 will have 6 aircraft (to be fair, that is more than 5) operating the profitable 50 seat routes. I do expect by this time next year, we will be talking about their removal though.

Frontier is very much in transition. They are well on their way to a fleet of E190/Airbus. That seems like a pretty low CASM fleet to me.
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mikefrommke
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 42):
but if you want to pretend it is optimal then go ahead.

I never said it was optimal. But the point is they are already in the fleet and yes, they are different than the E190, but probably not enough different to cause too many headaches on the ramp. They are in transition from the 3 types you listed. But business takes time. If they grounded all 3 fleets tomorrow, there would be outrage how RJET hates jobs and hates the communities that would have to be discontinued. I wish they could go to walmart and exchange their E70s, Q400, and E145 for A321s and get them tomorrow but that's just not how this business works. Its like WN/FL putting 717s on DSM-MKE. Is it optimal? No way. But they think there is enough of a market to warrant continued service until they can get to an optimal configuration. You'd be just as angry if they made a ton of stations "seasonal" while they waited for the right aircraft to become available.
 
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 43):
They are well on their way to a fleet of E190/Airbus.

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not sure the E190s are sticking around. I'm told they are deferring all future orders and we already know they are attempting to sell some or all of the existing fleet. I think they are going to go down the ULCC path I have proposed many times with only A319 and A320, although the fleet plan dart board is replayed each day so who knows.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 44):
Is it optimal? No way.

There is a reason the other carriers don't change their fleet plan like you change your underwear. They are not smarter than the other guys.
 
mikefrommke
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RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
There is a reason the other carriers don't change their fleet plan like you change your underwear. They are not smarter than the other guys.

BB and RJET have not introduced any new fleets yet. The fleets they have were based on decisions made by the carriers before they were purchased. F9 brought the A32x and Q400, YX brought the E70/90 and E145. It is hardly fair to compare them to other carriers because the carriers you are most likely referring to (WN and Spirit) had full control of their fleets from the beginning. RJET is making the best with what they were given and the opportunities that they've been presented with.
 
mcg
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
I think they are going to go down the ULCC path

I think Frontier tried this strategy in the 1980's and it failed miserably. What I am referring to is the acquisition of original Frontier by People Express. It was a colossal failure and makes me uncomfortable just thinking about the chaos that resulted. I hope current management is smarter than that.
 
azstar
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:15 pm

I just flew on Midwest Ailines painted. E190. More than two years after the merger they still haven't repainted all of the 12 E190's they're flying for F9. I dunno, but the message it sends to me is that they're not willing to invest any money in the Frontier brand.
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: New Frontier/Republic Part 28

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):
On the lighter side, Breckenridge, CO made smarter travels top 10 list of the world's most scenic mountain towns

Breck used to have an airstrip. Unlike Leadville, Vail, or Steamboat, they never attracted air service (nor even sought it). Breck is a bit more confined than the others. It may be only an hour from Denver (or 1.5 from DIA)... but not in poor weather!

-Rampart