ourboeing
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:22 pm

Luckily everyone is safe.


LINTHICUM, Md. (AP) — Officials at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport say no one was injured when a Southwest Airlines jet collided with a fuel truck.

An airport spokesman says the plane was struck by the truck after landing at BWI from Orlando Saturday night. The spokesman described the incident as “very rare” and says the plane was taken out of service while the crash is investigated.

(Copyright 2011 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
 
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Aloha717200
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:23 pm

We sure this was on the runway, or on a taxiway?
 
bobnwa
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:26 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
We sure this was on the runway, or on a taxiway?

I would wager it was on the ramp or a taxiway
 
Independence76
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:31 pm

What regulations and procedures are in place that can be implemented or should have stopped a vehicle (especially a fuel truck) getting this close to the active runway?
 
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Aloha717200
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 2):
I would wager it was on the ramp or a taxiway

It's just a pet peeve of mine when the media ALWAYS refers to any sort of ramp or taxiway incident as being "on the runway". I have a feeling that had this jet and this fuel truck collided on a "runway" the driver of the truck would be in the hospital or worse, and the plane significantly damaged or worse.

This sounds like a low speed impact...unlikely to be a runway collision.
 
futureualpilot
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:39 pm

Normally vehicles are supposed to give way to aircraft, but I've seen more than a few drivers not pay attention or blatantly disregard said rule and cut us off or race in front of, or around our airplane.
Life is better when you surf.
 
NBGSkyGod
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:11 pm

From what I remember working the ramp at BWI, the WN side was a nightmare to get around, wtih planes and vehicles speeding all over the place. It always seemed that the airport driving rules did not apply to WN.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
WNCrew
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:44 pm

It was VERY minor. No evacuation, no major delay even. The pax were deplaned, the aircraft pulled from service and the flight continued on within an hr to it's intended destination (it was a through flight). Thank you media...for the false drama!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LOWS
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 6):
From what I remember working the ramp at BWI, the WN side was a nightmare to get around, wtih planes and vehicles speeding all over the place. It always seemed that the airport driving rules did not apply to WN.

Was that before or after they had their own terminal?
 
G500
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:49 pm

The media likes to call any piece of concrete on the airport's property "a runway"...

otherwise what the hell would a fuel truck be doing on a runway?
 
aztrainer
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:50 pm

What is the possibilities of the driver texting or using their phone and not paying attention? I also agree about the location being erroneous, as if the plane departed an hour after arrival means that this is more of a non-story.
 
nkops
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:26 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
It's just a pet peeve of mine when the media ALWAYS refers to any sort of ramp or taxiway incident as being "on the runway".

I agree 100%.... my first thought was "what the heck is a fuel truck doing on the runway??"
:evil:
 
joelyboy911
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:10 am

Don't you people know that Runway = Tarmac = Any location at the airport?   
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BEG2IAH
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:48 am

Looks like a case of Mrs. Loretta Houk (from the movie: Moving Violations).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWeP...playnext=1&list=PL2C5B4A905D8F5CF7

Sorry I couldn't find the actual scene when she's driving behind the plane.   A.net should have a movie scene library...

BEG2IAH
 
soon7x7
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:33 am

Why the anti media rhetoric?...they are journalists just embellishing drek level news...that's what they do...they were not schooled in aviation and its complexities. While some meteorologists on the TV channels are pilots...they do not cover breaking news. Perhaps they should run their copy by the A/net moderators before running stories?
 
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Aloha717200
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 14):
Perhaps they should run their copy by the A/net moderators before running stories?

Yes, they should.   

It simply makes me question their integrity. A lot of small errors can add up to a big cumulative trend of incorrect reporting. These media outlets are the same ones we rely on for other breaking news, and when a lot of fine details get mixed up, you get infactual reporting. I've seen companies have their stock plummet in a day because some newspaper or newscaster screwed up a report on the company, for example. I just have more faith in the media if they get their facts straight. Calling a ramp a runway is, believe it or not, a fairly serious mistake because of what it entails. We hear about a stike on the ramp and we instantly know it's a slow-speed impact. We hear about something being run into on a RUNWAY during a plane's landing roll, and we instantly think high speed and possibly devastating results.

It matters and they need to do their homework just a bit better. Details matter.
 
redtag501
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:06 am

Most likely occurred on the ramp. Operators of ground equipment are normally trained to watch for aircraft which have their collision lights on and to stop and wait for them even if the aircraft is motionless at the time. If nothing else, it means the aircraft is about to push back or that engines are running or being started. Both are hazardous situations for ground equipment and personnel. Of course, that said, airport ramps are busy places and fuel and other service contractors are under tight schedules to service flights--very easy for an operator to become distracted or preoccupied with trying to keep the schedule at the expense of safety regulations.
 
USAIRWAYS321
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 14):
Why the anti media rhetoric?...they are journalists just embellishing drek level news...that's what they do...they were not schooled in aviation and its complexities. While some meteorologists on the TV channels are pilots...they do not cover breaking news. Perhaps they should run their copy by the A/net moderators before running stories?

Very quick, simple research would result in the media conveying the correct terminology. Either they consistently can't be bothered, or prefer to be wrong for a more sensational story, resulting in better ratings. I suspect it varies by media outlet, but either way, our gripes are certainly legitimate.
 
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Moose135
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:24 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):
Calling a ramp a runway is, believe it or not, a fairly serious mistake because of what it entails.

And if a news story said "Truck collides with airplane on ramp..." almost everyone in the general public (you know, the 99.999% of people who aren't aviation enthusiasts) would wonder how an airplane goes up a ramp, and what it does when it gets to the top...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
A346Dude
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):
What regulations and procedures are in place that can be implemented or should have stopped a vehicle (especially a fuel truck) getting this close to the active runway?

Vehicles (yes, even fuel trucks) regularly need to cross runways to access different areas of an airport. That being said I am not familiar with the layout at BWI so maybe it's not necessary there.

[Edited 2011-10-23 20:26:23]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
747fan
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:43 am

Yikes, I wonder exactly where this occurred. If it was during pushback or taxi-in, at least some of the blame would go to the wingwalker(s).
As a side note, anybody driving out on the ramp needs to give way to all aircraft. If an aircraft is ready for pushback with its anti-collision lights on, then you're supposed to stop & wait until its out of the way. So I'm curious as to why these procedures weren't being followed (I know on a busy ramp such as WN's at BWI it can be hectic) or why the wingwalker(s) wasn't doing his/her job.

Earlier this year at my station (SDF), we had an AA MD-80 hit a fuel truck. I wasn't there, but apparently it was being towed from one of our hardstands to a gate, which is something we never do. Long story short, the airplane was being towed one way & the wingwalker was going the other way. And then, BAM.. Thankfully nobody was in the fuel truck as it got hit & was wedged in pretty good underneath the wing.

[Edited 2011-10-23 20:50:09]
 
ha763
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 19):

Vehicles (yes, even fuel trucks) regularly need to cross runways to access different areas of an airport.

It is not common for most vehicles to operate in aircraft movement areas, which includes runways and taxiways. In the U.S. you have to meet certain requirements in order to cross the line between the ramp and aircraft movement areas. The main requirement is that you have to be in constant communication with ATC. Just like with aircraft, you have to get clearance from ATC to move in the aircraft movement area.

All airports have marked roadways and perimeter roads to allow vehicles to move around the airport without crossing into the aircraft movement areas.
 
yyzame
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):

Before crossing the CAT III approach antenna's you're supposed to contact ATC let alone before you even attempt to cross the runway ... There are mandatory hold positions all around the airport before you cross taxiways or runways that you need permission from ATC to cross before doing so.
 
skyguyB727
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:46 am

Quoting redtag501 (Reply 16):
Operators of ground equipment are normally trained to watch for aircraft which have their collision lights on and to stop and wait for them even if the aircraft is motionless at the time. If nothing else, it means the aircraft is about to push back or that engines are running or being started.

Based on personal experience, that's not always the case with WN. A few years ago, while waiting for a WN flight in PHX at dusk, I watched the aircraft taxi to the gate under its own power with no beacons on. The same pilots who forgot to turn on the anti-collision beacons also forgot to turn on the seatbelt sign on takeoff from PHX and on landing at LAS. With no beacons flashing, a ground collision certainly would be possible.
 
fuelfool
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:54 am

The media is bad whenever there is an aviation accident/incident. The media did not start this thread, an A.net member did. Just saying.
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
 
Silver1SWA
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:04 am

Quoting fuelfool (Reply 24):
The media did not start this thread, an A.net member did. Just saying.

It took 24 replies to point that out? Exactly. I only see the word "runway" used in the title of this thread, not in the story posted.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
shnoob940
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:24 am

Was it a hydrant truck or a tank truck? If it was a tank truck, I can see scenarios of it turning out quite badly.

gibbo
A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 A388 733 734 735 737 738 739 743 744 762 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E170 E190 Q400 AT7 DH
 
PITrules
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:10 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 21):

In the U.S. you have to meet certain requirements in order to cross the line between the ramp and aircraft movement areas. The main requirement is that you have to be in constant communication with ATC. Just like with aircraft, you have to get clearance from ATC to move in the aircraft movement area.

Not at all true. The only requirement is an employment badge and a stop sign where road meets taxiway.

Quoting fuelfool (Reply 24):
The media is bad whenever there is an aviation accident/incident. The media did not start this thread, an A.net member did. Just saying.

  
FLYi
 
Rbgso
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Quoting G500 (Reply 9):
The media likes to call any piece of concrete on the airport's property "a runway"...

otherwise what the hell would a fuel truck be doing on a runway?

Agree. I'm betting this happened on the tarmac somewhere. The level of inaccurate reporting in aviation journalism is amazing!
 
Silver1SWA
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting rbgso (Reply 28):

It wasn't the media this time! It was the thread starter!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
474218
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 27):
The only requirement is an employment badge and a stop sign where road meets taxiway.

Funny story: When I was stationed at JFK they implemented a new rule that all vehicles had to have the company name and vehicle number on the side! So I take the old Chevy Station wagon down to a sign painter and have Lockheed and the Lockheed logo applied to the aft most side windows.

About a week later I was stopped by a Port Authority cop as I was driving on the tarmac. He says to me your station wagon is in violation of the new rule. I said they told me it was OK to put the company name on the windows. He said that's OK but where is you vehicle number? I said vehicle number? We only have one vehicle. He looks at me and says then it should be "number one". I didn't get a ticket but did have to have the sign painter add "NO. 1" after Lockheed.
 
ha763
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Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 27):
Not at all true. The only requirement is an employment badge and a stop sign where road meets taxiway.

Please note that I said aircraft movement area, also known as air movement area or AMA. The boundry between the aircraft movement area and non-movement area (ramp) is marked by 2 yellow parallel lines, 1 solid and 1 dashed. The solid line side is the non-movement area and the dashed line side is the aircraft movement area. You cannot enter the aircraft movement area without ATC permission. The aircraft movement area includes taxiways and runways. The non-movement area includes non-ATC controlled areas such as taxilanes, ramp/apron areas, and alleyways. The links below are training guides for 3 different airports and they all have the same definitions.

http://www.portseattle.org/downloads/about/AMAstudyguide.pdf
http://www.martinstateairport.com/pd.../Airfield%20drivers%20training.pdf
http://hawaii.gov/hnl/airport-inform...on/Drivers%20Training%20Manual.pdf
 
WNCrew
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RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:08 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 29):
It wasn't the media this time! It was the thread starter!

Yes and no, there were several articles aside from the one quoted that did indeed describe the incident as having happened on the "runway"...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bwphoto
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RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:06 pm

At BWI, Northrup Grumman (formerly Westinghouse Electric Corp.) have a ramp (ramp W, I believe) from their own hangar. When I worked there in the 80s, WEC had a BAC-111 and two Sabreliners. Pretty sure they were fueled by tankers that came from the airport, which meant they had to cross 15R/33L.
 
SANFan
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RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:09 pm

I assume the OP (and thread title) have been corrected/updated? (I don't remember where "runway" appeared in the OP yesterday...)

bb
 
soon7x7
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RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 15):


Agreed 100%...my point is here on A/net I can't believe anyone regards anything the general press passes along to us...the viewing public as Gospel. We all know better so why is anyone here shocked? During the TWA 800 event here in New York I was part of the press pool and was sorry I was. It became readily apparent how aggressive they were amongst each other, even to the point of getting physical while on location just to get the $$$ shot and story. Well the story was self evident and the jokes flew around the ship we were on like shrapnel. "Hard Copy" wanted me to fly with them in their chopper over the crash scene after they had asked me if I could identify airplane parts. My response was " huh?...that's all you are going to see and anything other than airplane parts is not something you want to photo document and air". I declined the ride...back on the boat, to the general press, it was just a party day on the Coast Guard Cutter, one that allowed them to smoke cigars, hang in the mess hall and crack jokes about dead bodies. I'm glad I don't cover "Breaking News"...I have met the same local NY journalists at other aviation accidents and experienced the same cavalier attitude. In short most journalists have absolutely no knowledge of aviation, its products, services and the scope in which it operates. They will take the word of anyone at a crash scene that does have aerospace experience and coin him or her, " a credible source, our expert witness". So truth be told...Yep, they should qualify their copy before final edit with A/netters and I'm not being facetious. After all...isn't it here they are lifting images from for their articles?   
 
PITrules
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Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 31):
You cannot enter the aircraft movement area without ATC permission.

There are countless examples where this is not the case. For example, in the picture of ORD below, have a look at the airfield road at the far right of the picture. It crosses several taxiways and is used by all kinds of vehicles. I know from experience ATC does not control that road, or issue clearances to all the vehicles that cross each of those taxiways. They are way too busy for that.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Akin Diler



In this view you can see that it crosses 13 taxiways, all in the AMA.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Chambers

FLYi
 
474218
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RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:26 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 36):
There are countless examples where this is not the case. For example, in the picture of ORD below, have a look at the airfield road at the far right of the picture. It crosses several taxiways and is used by all kinds of vehicles. I know from experience ATC does not control that road, or issue clearances to all the vehicles that cross each of those taxiways. They are way too busy for that.

Additionally, how would ATC control the vehicles crossing the taxiway (or runway), radios are not mandatory!
 
fuelfool
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:41 am

RE: Southwest Jet, Fuel Truck Collide At BWI

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:00 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 34):
assume the OP (and thread title) have been corrected/updated? (I don't remember where "runway" appeared in the OP yesterday...)

You are correct. The thread title has been changed.

[Edited 2011-10-24 21:04:30]
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!

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