dkramer7
Topic Author
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Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:01 pm

According to Qantas/Jetstar, after the B787's go to Jetstar, the A330's will go to back to Qantas. Assuming that none are returned to lessors/Sold there will be a total of 31 A330's in the Qantas Fleet (10 A330-300 and 21 A330-200)

Will Qantas hang onto them and operate a mixed A330/B787 group for the next decade, or will the 330's be disposed of leaving just the B787 in the medium widebody role.
 
JMM99
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:41 pm

They might lease 1 or 2 to FJ to add to their 3 new 332 they are getting in 17 months.
 
col
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:29 pm

They will probably be out of hours and cycles by the time the 787's hit town   
 
747400sp
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:16 pm

I some what thought about this also. When airlines start to get their 787/A350XWB, where will all these new A330s go, I am not just thinking QF, but other airlines also?
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:35 pm

Comparing the A330 and the 787 capacity wise is apples to oranges. The 787-800 is about the size of a 767-300 while the A330-200 is the size of a 767-400 and the A330-300 is ALMOST but not quite the size of 777. The A330s are very effiicient and do well for the missions they are assigned. So any airline replacing any standard A330 route with a 787 is taking a capacity reduction. Unless the loads of those A330 flights are not 100% and can neatly fit a 787 then I guess it would work.

It seems to me initially the airlines taking in the 787 will either replace 767s if they own them on a plane by plane basis, OR, take advantage of 787s long haul capability that is beyond that of an A330 and deploy them there (like CO/UA IAH to AKL).If Qantas gets the 787-900 (do they have those on order?) those would replace the A330-200 seat for seat and be more economical. But they still would be stuck with A330-300 to replace. Its possible an airline like Qantas could have both, i.e. deploy 787 to long thin routes to US by passing LAX and the A330s to Asia.
 
cchan
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 4):
If Qantas gets the 787-900 (do they have those on order?) those would replace the A330-200 seat for seat and be more economical.

Most of the 787s QF ordered are 789.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:58 pm

The 787-8 is closer in size to the 767-400ER and A330-200 than it is to the 767-300ER.

Perhaps QF could move the A330-200s to domestic CityFlyer services, replacing the 767-300ERs? I know they had some concerns about turn-around times when they last tried it, but...
 
roseflyer
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 4):
Comparing the A330 and the 787 capacity wise is apples to oranges. The 787-800 is about the size of a 767-300 while the A330-200 is the size of a 767-400

With the 9 abreast seating that airlines are favoring for the 787-8, it will only be about 5-10 seats short of the A330-200. It's definitely larger than the 767-300.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Perhaps QF could move the A330-200s to domestic CityFlyer services, replacing the 767-300ERs?

^ this.

the 763ERs have to go sometime soon, they're all ageing (not so gracefully) and with Virgin slowly adding 330s to its domestic fleet with a better/more attractive plane QF has to replace them with 330s or 787s to keep their marketshare on MEL-SYD and SYD-BNE.
 
travelhound
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:56 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Perhaps QF could move the A330-200s to domestic CityFlyer services, replacing the 767-300ERs? I know they had some concerns about turn-around times when they last tried it, but...

One of the original plans was to deliver the first trance of 787-8's for QF domestic. I'm not totally sure but it might be the case the 787-8 is better suited to domestic than the A330-200.

Quoting dkramer7 (Thread starter):
Assuming that none are returned to lessors/Sold there will be a total of 31 A330's in the Qantas Fleet (10 A330-300 and 21 A330-200)

As you stated some of these aircraft are owned, others are leased. I would suspect QF will use the leased birds to adjust their capacity needs to their requirements, so I can see a situation in five years time where some of the A330's are being returned to lessors.

Or another scenario may be the A330's are retained by QF and the 787's are used to grow Jetstar and Red Q.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 9):
One of the original plans was to deliver the first trance of 787-8's for QF domestic. I'm not totally sure but it might be the case the 787-8 is better suited to domestic than the A330-200.

The current plan is for the first 15 aircraft to go to Jetstar and for those A332's to come back to the QF domestic fleet to replace 763's. Jetstar currently has 11 A332's so if they all come back that would give QF domestic a fleet of 15 A332's and reduce the 763 fleet to 13 or 14 frames. That would leave 4 A332's and 10 A333's in QF International to be replaced by 787's which would seem perfect for replacing the remaining 763's in QF service by the end of this decade.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:36 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 10):
The current plan is for the first 15 aircraft to go to Jetstar and for those A332's to come back to the QF domestic fleet to replace 763's. Jetstar currently has 11 A332's so if they all come back that would give QF domestic a fleet of 15 A332's and reduce the 763 fleet to 13 or 14 frames. That would leave 4 A332's and 10 A333's in QF International to be replaced by 787's which would seem perfect for replacing the remaining 763's in QF service by the end of this decade.

Correct:

phase 1 = B787-8 go to Jetstar, with the 330s going to QF to replace ageing B767s

phase 2. B787-8's used by Jetstar in phase 1 (with business/star class equivalent to QF domestic) will go to QF domestic, with B787-9's being delivered to Jetstar.

... well, that's the plan at this stage!
 
atlflyer
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:52 pm

Will Qantas 787s be 8 or 9 abreast? JQ's will definitely be 9...
 
Airvan00
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 12):
Will Qantas 787s be 8 or 9 abreast? JQ's will definitely be 9...

Do you have any source that states they will be different? The current 332's are very similar, the JQ 322's and the QF domestic 332's are almost identical in the rear cabin, even using the same seat numbering. This is of course to enable swift movement between the fleets.
 
fiscal
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:06 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
With the 9 abreast seating that airlines are favoring for the 787-8, it will only be about 5-10 seats short of the A330-200. It's definitely larger than the 767-300.

I wonder what configuration the 9 abreast would be 2-5-2 or 3-3-3?

I personally would prefer the 2-5-2 approach, but ONLY if was in the 2 seat sections (thank goodness for advance seat selection). I hate (with a vengeance) the idea of being in a middle seat, and I have even been known to change a flight when a reschedule has meant an aircraft change to a single aisle aircraft type.

I suspect that there may be more like me (heaven forbid) out there where seat and personal space are important considerations to my purchasing decision.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:42 am

The A333's won't really come into consideration here -- they will keep flying in the international fleet until they are retired in 2020 or so (probably replaced with either a new 78X or 789s).

With regards to the A332's -- could we see some readjustments of the fleet once QF get the JQ planes back? They have 2 HGW frames running on domestic (plus JQ's 1 HGW frame), which I'm sure would be useful on international routes (AKL-LAX for example). Ideally, I'd like to see them expand the international fleet by a couple of frames.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 11):
phase 2. B787-8's used by Jetstar in phase 1 (with business/star class equivalent to QF domestic) will go to QF domestic, with B787-9's being delivered to Jetstar.

But then what happens to the A332s, some of which would only be 4 years old by 2014/15. I'd have though that the best plan would be to use the 788s to bring the final international A332s back to domestic then put the 788s on international duties, and perhaps transcons if they are lacking in capacity. OR better still, actually give QF the 789s...

Quoting fiscal (Reply 14):
I wonder what configuration the 9 abreast would be 2-5-2 or 3-3-3?

I'd hope for 3-3-3...
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:43 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):
the 763ERs have to go sometime soon, they're all ageing (not so gracefully) and with Virgin slowly adding 330s to its domestic fleet with a better/more attractive plane QF has to replace them with 330s or 787s to keep their marketshare on MEL-SYD and SYD-BNE.

I flew a Virgin Australia A330 SYD-PER last month, though the interior was nice the plane was obviously old and had all kinds of creaks and noises going on, extremely noisy for an A330, not a pleasant experience actually. Flew a QF A330 on the return in virtually the same seat which was much quieter. All A330's are not alike, just putting one up against an old Cityflier 767 does not necessarily make for a better service.

I still have serious doubts about anybody getting the 787-9 anytime remotely soon, Airbus are moving to the FAL stage with the A350XWB for a possible Q1 2014 delivery but Boeing have just completed another design review of the 787-9 we may (should) get more guidance on 787 deliveries from the Boeing earnings call tonight Australian time but I'm not expecting clarity.
BV
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 14):
I wonder what configuration the 9 abreast would be 2-5-2 or 3-3-3

Most likely 3-3-3. The main reason so many airlines moved from 2-5-2 which makes sense in terms of
the keeping most PAX with isle access or only 1 seat away (only 1 person is 2 seats away from the isle)
3 - 3- 3 was adopted because the IFE boxes could handle 3 seats. So it ment a total reduction in the investment
in them and importantly a reduction in weight.

With the 787 this may change as the technology changes. We have 77W's now flying with the latest generation
of IFE that was intended for the 787 so I suppose now it would stay 3-3-3 (united are switching to this presently
with current generation technology on the 772) but I agree although looking more crowded its much nicer if you're in
one of the groups of '2' seats.
 
travelhound
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 10):
The current plan is for the first 15 aircraft to go to Jetstar and for those A332's to come back to the QF domestic fleet to replace 763's.

I understand the A330's are going (back) to QF, but I'm not too sure they will be replacing the 767's on a one for one basis.

There are plenty of 744's that will be retiring in the 2012-2015 period, so my guess is quite a few A330's will be used for international flying.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 11):
phase 2. B787-8's used by Jetstar in phase 1 (with business/star class equivalent to QF domestic) will go to QF domestic, with B787-9's being delivered to Jetstar.

I find it hard to imagine QF replacing 767 ops. wholesale with A330 ops. to only replace them a few years latter wholesale with 787 ops.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:51 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
Most likely 3-3-3

Fingers crossed -- I wonder which config would allow for the shortest turnaround time (for domestic, high density ops where QF has issues with the A330 due to higher capacity). I'd wager probably 2-5-2 unfortunately (fewer people having to get up to allow window/middle pax in hence speeding up boarding/disembarking?)

Quoting travelhound (Reply 18):
There are plenty of 744's that will be retiring in the 2012-2015 period, so my guess is quite a few A330's will be used for international flying.

I think they can cover themselves with the 9 744s that are remaining. Remember that there hasn't really been a constant stream of 744 retirements as A380s have arrived, so it will largely be a balancing out thing...

14 A380s can cover:

SYD-SIN-LHR (3)
MEL-SIN-LHR (3)
SYD-LAX (2)
MEL-LAX (2)
SYD-DFW (2)

With 2 spare frames -- in my eyes the second SYD-LAX (2) would be best for utilisation, and the route can probably handle it... Either that or BNE-LAX (2)...

Then the 9 744s cover

SYD-SIN-FRA (3)
BNE-LAX (2) (or the second SYD-LAX (2) if BNE-LAX was to be A380)
SYD-JNB (1)
SYD-SCL (1)
SYD-HKG (1)
SYD-NRT (1)

The A333s then do what they are doing at the moment, but with the frames running the 2 weekly A333s on SYD-NRT going to MEL-HKG and eventually increasing SYD-HKG further.

SYD-BKK will be a JQ route on 787s to tie into their MEL-BKK flights and AKL-LAX remains an A332. There is also some slack in the international A332 fleet if they need to plug holes in the A333's routes and if they decide to keep QF on SYD-HNL but with an A332 3 times weekly. If they need to increase JFK down the road (unlikely in my eyes) then it's easy to do that with the daily 747 flight or the A380 if that's what they want to do (like I said, unlikely).

I would like to see a couple more A332s internationally... But I doubt it's going to happen  
Quoting travelhound (Reply 18):
I find it hard to imagine QF replacing 767 ops. wholesale with A330 ops. to only replace them a few years latter wholesale with 787 ops.

Agreed. 'The Plan' was devised before delays etc had come along. Since then a lot of A332s have joined the fleet, and won't be ready to leave until 2025-30 in some cases. My bet is that there's already a new plan internally. Hopefully that sees 787s going to QF international when the 789s arrive...
 
cchan
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:20 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 19):
The A333s then do what they are doing at the moment, but with the frames running the 2 weekly A333s on SYD-NRT going to MEL-HKG and eventually increasing SYD-HKG further.

I have noticed that in the Northern summer schedule 2012, the 2 SYD-HKG-SYD flights depart within 3-4 hours to each other. Would this suggest these will eventually become 1x A380 flight instead?
 
thegeek
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:45 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 11):
phase 1 = B787-8 go to Jetstar, with the 330s going to QF to replace ageing B767s

phase 2. B787-8's used by Jetstar in phase 1 (with business/star class equivalent to QF domestic) will go to QF domestic, with B787-9's being delivered to Jetstar.

... well, that's the plan at this stage!

Doesn't seem like this plan has much chance of being implemented in full to me. Wasn't the idea of JQ getting the 787s to open up new routes? They'd need 13 of the 15 787s just to fly the schedule as it will be (2 more A332s are on order). I think that while the HGW ones may go back to QF for AKL-LAX, many of the A330s will have to remain at JQ.
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 16):
I still have serious doubts about anybody getting the 787-9 anytime remotely soon, Airbus are moving to the FAL stage with the A350XWB for a possible Q1 2014 delivery but Boeing have just completed another design review of the 787-9

I'm not sure what your point is, but the critical design review to which you refer happened on time and the program has passed through that gate.
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:43 am

Quoting cchan (Reply 20):
I have noticed that in the Northern summer schedule 2012, the 2 SYD-HKG-SYD flights depart within 3-4 hours to each other. Would this suggest these will eventually become 1x A380 flight instead?

It's possible, but I doubt that QF would want to switch equipment between seasons (it's not their style) and having the evening/morning departures through the Northern Winter is a big advantage. Fingers crossed that the A380 eventually sees QF service to HKG (maybe in 2019?)
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 22):
I'm not sure what your point is, but the critical design review to which you refer happened on time and the program has passed through that gate.

I guess my point is

Boeing Delays Bigger Version Of 787 Dreamliner OCTOBER 26, 2011, 5:07 P.M. ET

Quote:
Boeing Co. has pushed back its planned first delivery of a second, larger version of the 787 Dreamliner, according to a regulatory filing.

The jet maker now expects to deliver the 787-9, a slightly bigger variant of the 787-8, in early 2014 rather than late 2013, according to Boeing's third-quarter financial report with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Boeing, which delivered the first Dreamliner version more than three years later than planned to launch customer All Nippon Airways Co., recently completed its design review for the 787-9, a longer-range version that some airlines prefer.

The 787-9 is designed to carry 250 to 290 passengers, compared with 210 to 250 on the first version, which was plagued by production problems that have resulted in billions of dollars in cost overruns.

"We have assessed the schedule, and first delivery [of the 787-9] is now expected in early 2014, although we continue to look for opportunities to regain schedule," the company said in Wednesday's filing.


BV
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 24):
Boeing Delays Bigger Version Of 787 Dreamliner OCTOBER 26, 2011, 5:07 P.M. ET

Can they please just build this plane already! It'll be quicker to cancel the 787s and get A350s at this rate...
 
astuteman
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:10 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 3):
When airlines start to get their 787/A350XWB, where will all these new A330s go, I am not just thinking QF, but other airlines also?

I suspect they'll "go" to similar destinations to the ones that A330's fly to today.   

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 4):
Comparing the A330 and the 787 capacity wise is apples to oranges

How? These planes are almost exactly the same size...

Rgds
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:30 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 25):
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 24):
Boeing Delays Bigger Version Of 787 Dreamliner OCTOBER 26, 2011, 5:07 P.M. ET

Can they please just build this plane already! It'll be quicker to cancel the 787s and get A350s at this rate...

That possibility has been looming awhile now. But still only a possibility, until.........
 
dkramer7
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:06 am

RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:07 pm

Somehow I doubt this is a priority right now, since the announcement today.

Is there much of a cost difference (to buy or lease) a B787 compared to an A330?
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting dkramer7 (Reply 28):
Somehow I doubt this is a priority right now, since the announcement today.

Is there much of a cost difference (to buy or lease) a B787 compared to an A330?

But I bet there are some sales folk in both B and A a little bit anxious now. Probably more B than A as IIRC most of the near deliveries will be to Jetstar. But with a shrunk QF - as seems almost inevitable now - presumably the orders will need to be revisited.
 
dkramer7
Topic Author
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:06 am

RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
But I bet there are some sales folk in both B and A a little bit anxious now

I bet they probably are.

On the matter of engine choice, will they likely stay with the GE engine for the A330's?
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:46 pm

Quoting dkramer7 (Reply 30):

On the matter of engine choice, will they likely stay with the GE engine for the A330's?

If they were going to change, they would have done so a while ago you would suppose. I am not very clear if the GE offering now matches the T700E whatever it is called, or if it still lags. At one stage the A332s with the Trents were markedly better than the GEs. Someone will know if GE caught up.

What might have QF a bit edgy would be the saga over PIPs on GEnxs for the 748 and the implications it could have for sub-standard 787s.
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
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RE: Qantas A330 After B787

Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting dkramer7 (Thread starter):
With the 9 abreast seating that airlines are favoring for the 787-8, it will only be about 5-10 seats short of the A330-200. It's definitely larger than the 767-300.

I love this, if an A330 is 2metres longer than 787-8 then assuming that 9 abreast 787 and normal 2 4 2 A330 there are 30 odd extra seats in economy alone. Normal pitch of 31 inches allows two more rows which gets back 16 seats leaving 787-8 with 14 more not 5 to 10 short Did I mention that A332 holds 26 LD3s where 787 holds 28...go figure.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 4):
Comparing the A330 and the 787 capacity wise is apples to oranges. The 787-800 is about the size of a 767-300 while the A330-200 is the size of a 767-400 and the A330-300 is ALMOST but not quite the size of 777

The A333 is not the same size as a 772 they are identical in length but 772 is much wider allowing 9 or sometimes 10 abreast seating. Also A333 does not have the legs of a 772. Nobody would agree that a 763 is the same size as an A332 which is a row wider and a 787 is a row wider again...same as 763...don't think so... go figure.

Where do these myths come from..???

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