BoeingVista
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Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Reading through the 787-8 type certification document on EASA site and came across this gem

18. Minimum Flight Crew
Two (2): Pilot and co-pilot

19. Maximum Seating Capacity
Zero passengers

Doesn't seem right LOL, but there it is in black and white on page 12 of the official certification document!

http://easa.europa.eu/certification/...28IM%29_Boeing_787-01-26082011.pdf
BV
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:52 pm

This isn't unusual. Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified. Since each airline's seating configuration is unique, it saves undoing a generic interior Cert on the TCDS to incorporate the airline interior.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
marky
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 1):
Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified

Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.
 
JRadier
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:01 pm

As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.

Yah, but we are talking about a 787 here which is a passenger plane and should be certified to carry up to 250 PAX.

This is a bit of a mystery.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:12:40]
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lightsaber
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting marky (Reply 2):
Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.

That was my impression (note, I do not do passenger specific testing, so that is out of my expertise). So what is up with this? Have every passenger pass the battery of flight test training?   

You know:
1. Egress (includes lights out, door opening, slide deployment, etc.)
2. Fire extenguisher (includes fire identification and response)
3. Survival (in case the plane goes down somewhere nasty)
4. Oxygen (with added oxygen packs required of experimental aircraft)
5. Communication (basically, knowning the NATO alphabet, radio operation/call signs, and mostly when to shut up).


I think we could exclude high altutude training for the passengers.  

How is this ammended? I notice a bypass to the oil cooler is required before a new certification will be issued. Is that the hold up? Note: I'm asking and I have zero inside knowledge.

Lightsaber
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BoeingVista
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:37 pm

Looked up the FAA TCDS and it has PAX numbers included

Quote:
I. 787-8 (cont’d)
Maximum Passengers: The maximum number of passengers approved for emergency evacuation is:
381with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
355 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
330 with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, C, A) exit arrangement, and
300 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, C, A) exit arrangement.
Maximum passenger capacity may be further limited by Environmental Control System ventilation
per occupant requirement defined in 25.831(a).


So whats going on in Europe, maybe EASA didn't accept Boeing's evacuation simulation?

EASA A330 type certification document includes PAX numbers btw so its not just something that is not included on European certification documents, something strange is going on here.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:45:05]
BV
 
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747classic
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:50 pm

Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...0eadd/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%200.pdf

In the FAA 787 TCDS, revision 1, issue date 9-22-2011 this is corrected (vertical line left of corrected text)
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ad874/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%201.pdf

The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:52:03]
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BoeingVista
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...0eadd/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%200.pdf

In the FAA 787 TCDS, revision 1, issue date 9-22-2011 this is corrected (vertical line left of corrected text)
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ad874/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%201.pdf

The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

Ok, different revisions fair point. Guess we'll have to wait for EASA to publish revision 1 to see if it is corrected / ammended
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JRadier
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):

Yah, but we are talking about a 787 here which is a passenger plane and should be certified to carry up to 250 PAX.

Doh! I'll shut up now!  
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
flightsimer
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):

According to Boeing back in 2009 or 2010, they said they would be using the 767-300ER's max seating certificate for the 787-8, so really, it should be 350 seats, not 250. This is the reason we never saw a max passenger evacuation test performed for the plane.
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lightsaber
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!   

Lightsaber
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flyby519
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!

NK  Wow!     
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seabosdca
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!

Go ask Mr. O'Leary.   
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:33 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.

But hang on a minute, so Boeing did initially certifiy the 787 with the FAA and EASA for 0 PAX, its not a typo...

Is this normal for type certification or were they up against the end of Q3 and needed it done?
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flightsimer
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 14):

could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?
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Stitch
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15):
Could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?

I would expect that, at worst, Boeing would need to run a computer simulation showing that X number of people can evacuate within the 90 second period through four available doors. And I would expect that can't take too much time to program and run.

The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?

Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15):
could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?

Probably. Accepting that analysis is different than accepting all the new stuff for the 787.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.

Simulations are already allowed/expected in aircraft. The only exceptions are if there is something 'new.' e.g.:
1. New height (777, A380)
2. Trying for a significant increase in passengers if the manned evacuation test didn't have signficant margin.
3. Narrower passageways (isles/doors or other obstruction)
4. Narrower seat pitch
5. Significantly longer distance to an exit
6. Missing an alternate exit (or significant shrinkage of alternate exit path)
7. New exit configuration (wider doors to have higher 'bandwidth', new slides, etc.)
8. Increased risk factor an exit would be blocked (BWB)
9. Untested lighting (concept)

I'm sure I missed something else... But otherwise the FAA/EASA want to avoid manned evacuation drills due to the risk.
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