wilco737
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Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:48 pm

Part #6 got rather long so here is part #7.

Enjoy.

Here a link to part #6 if you need:

Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Thread Part 6 (by Moderators Jul 19 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Many thanks.

wilco737
  
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:45 pm

RC551's first flight has been pushed out a week (to first week in November). A 9 November delivery may be in jeopardy.
 
bellancacf
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:12 pm

Don't know whether or not this is the right thread to ask this, but --- after all the fuss over the fuel burn of the early frames' engines, do we know what Cargolux is actually encountering now that they are flying the plane? Is it as terrible as they made out?
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:28 pm

B-LJE needs a landing gear change apparently. Not sure why though.
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
B-LJE needs a landing gear change apparently. Not sure why though.

Could be chome pealing from the inner or outer cylinder due to contamination during plating. Not much else that would require a gear change.. (shades of the early 737 Menasco plating problems)
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 2):
Don't know whether or not this is the right thread to ask this, but --- after all the fuss over the fuel burn of the early frames' engines, do we know what Cargolux is actually encountering now that they are flying the plane? Is it as terrible as they made out?

Boeing made representations about fuel burn that were undoubtedly included in their contract with CargoLux. The early frames (as often happens) are heavier than spec and the engines burn more fuel than the contract spec. There is a update coming for the engines in two or three years that should take care much of the problem. So CargoLux played hard ball and got concessions from Boeing on the early frames.
 
bellancacf
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:25 am

Re: SonomaFlyer at #5: Yes, I followed what happened, more or less, but as the first a/c took off with no ceremony whatsoever, I rather wished that someone had been able to squeeze a bit of telemetry equipment in so that we could find out just how the plane _does_ perform for Cargolux. Somehow, given the "hardball", I don't think that Cargolux is going to tell the world if it should turn out that their 747-8 is as efficient as anyone could desire.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 6):
Somehow, given the "hardball", I don't think that Cargolux is going to tell the world if it should turn out that their 747-8 is as efficient as anyone could desire.

I'm pretty sure its the most efficient freighter out there given what it can haul and its range. It took off with no ceremony due to the grandstanding at the last minute by a certain new board member at CargoLux. I'll take a guess that the first couple of frames are something around 3.5% to 4% off spec. The PiP for the engines I thought were supposed to address a big chunk of that number.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:12 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 4):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
B-LJE needs a landing gear change apparently. Not sure why though.

Could be chome pealing from the inner or outer cylinder due to contamination during plating. Not much else that would require a gear change.. (shades of the early 737 Menasco plating problems)

That or a hard landing perhaps?
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 8):

That or a hard landing perhaps?

none have been reported.

A chrome plating contamination could affect multiple a/p if that is determined to be the cause.

edit add: Then again it may just be a leaking seal or two.. which is no big deal.

[Edited 2011-10-28 10:35:31]
 
mattcawby
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
B-LJE needs a landing gear change apparently

Are you sure? B-LJA is up on jack stands this morning
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:59 am

Are RC555/B-LJE for Cathay and RC574/G-GSSD for Atlas Air ( BA World Cargo livery) still scheduled for a delivery in October ?

RC555 performed the last flight at October 27.
RC574 performed yesterday (October 28) a B2 flight, followed by a customer acceptance flight.
See Matt Cawby's KPAE blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2011/10/paine-field-october-28.html

According several sources between 10 and 12 747-8F aircraft will be delivered in 2011.

"Boeing has lowered its expected delivery total for the year to about 480 airliners, down from between 485 and 495, owing to lower than planned deliveries of the 787 and 747-8. Those two programmes will deliver between 15 and 20 units between them - including around 12 747-8s - rather than the 25 to 30 units previously planned."

See whole article : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...7-break-even-at-1100-units-363900/
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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CCA
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:46 am

B-LJE scheduled to arrive in HK on Wednesday the 2nd now, so delivery Monday the 31st?
P1 in A330, A340, A346, B742, B744, B748.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 9):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 8):

That or a hard landing perhaps?

none have been reported.

A chrome plating contamination could affect multiple a/p if that is determined to be the cause.

edit add: Then again it may just be a leaking seal or two.. which is no big deal.
Quoting mattcawby (Reply 10):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
B-LJE needs a landing gear change apparently

Are you sure? B-LJA is up on jack stands this morning

Yes it seems mis-fitted seals are the culprit and yes it is LJE which needs the change.
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:01 pm

Sounds like two a/c have leakers... unusual but not unheard of.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
Sounds like two a/c have leakers... unusual but not unheard of.

Assuming the same person/team fitted the seals and considering how long it has been since B-LJE has had it's landing gear installed before they noticed the error, there could be quite a few sets of gear out there with them. Thats my theory anyway and it makes sense to me!
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:45 am

Since it sounds like strut seals, they were installed by the gear manufacturer/assembler. I believe the 747-8 gear arrives in pieces and is assembled adjacent to the Everett factory just prior to installation. This was the plan several years ago with the 777. However that timing should not affect the seals themselves I believe they have a 6-8 quarter (18 months to 2 years) shelf life before installation. and since they are lubed prior to installation they should be good for years. The only problem is they rely on the piston effect of landings and take offs to re-lubricate. Although moving the plane around over some uneven surface might solve the problem. I'm willing to bet they dried out and adhered to the inner cylinder. This may be a bigger problem with the 787 ramp queens than with the 747-8's.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:00 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 17):
Since it sounds like strut seals, they were installed by the gear manufacturer/assembler. I believe the 747-8 gear arrives in pieces and is assembled adjacent to the Everett factory just prior to installation. This was the plan several years ago with the 777. However that timing should not affect the seals themselves I believe they have a 6-8 quarter (18 months to 2 years) shelf life before installation. and since they are lubed prior to installation they should be good for years. The only problem is they rely on the piston effect of landings and take offs to re-lubricate. Although moving the plane around over some uneven surface might solve the problem. I'm willing to bet they dried out and adhered to the inner cylinder. This may be a bigger problem with the 787 ramp queens than with the 747-8's.

The info I have seen suggests that they were fitted wrongly rather than time expired or needing to be replaced due to time delays in delivery but that could be wrong.
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 17):
The info I have seen suggests that they were fitted wrongly


AAAAH!... well still not as bad as when they put Skydrol seals in a gear getting Mil Spec..
 
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:34 am

How many hours (days) does it normally cost to change all strut seals on a 747 at the factory, or will Boeing perform a complete gear swap. (several zero hour landing gears are available from the rejected RC571, 572 and 573.)

[Edited 2011-10-30 00:36:44]
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CCA
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:41 am

I'd say the gear swap was due to the fact that LJE was flown and therefore the gear subjected to landing loads, while LJA was lifted and the seals checked for correct installation and corrected if need be before first flight.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the 748 fleet is being checked and those that have flown and found to have incorrect seal installations may require a gear change.
P1 in A330, A340, A346, B742, B744, B748.
 
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kanban
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 19):
How many hours (days) does it normally cost to change all strut seals on a 747 at the factory, or will Boeing perform a complete gear swap. (several zero hour landing gears are available from the rejected RC571, 572 and 573.)


Normally (very simplified) they disconnect the outer to inner cylinder links, electrical, and hydraulics and jack up the a/c until they can roll the inner and bogie out. The area must be kept clean so sometimes it means moving into a controlled environment. Replacing or re-aligning the seals and scraper rings is simple. They generally do not swap gears between customers as there are various customer options that would mean replacing wire bundles etc and that is time consuming. While the factory probably does not have the replacement seals, the Spares warehouse at Seatac does (It's about an hour away) Also Goodrich who makes the gear has an assembly plant next to the Everett Plant so technicians are available and a complete removed gear would go there since Boeing did away with a gear shop in the 90's.
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:35 pm

A lot of good work was done this past weekend on RC555 (L/N 1441) and RC574 (L/N 1442). RC555 (B-LJE) is in front of the Everett Delivery Center right now, so she will be delivered today. She is scheduled to depart KPAE at noon local time.

RC574 should be delivered and flown away tomorrow (fingers crossed).
 
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ER757
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 22):
RC555 (B-LJE) is in front of the Everett Delivery Center right now, so she will be delivered today. She is scheduled to depart KPAE at noon local time.

Flightaware is showing a scheduled departure time of 13:10.
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 23):
Flightaware is showing a scheduled departure time of 13:10.

Right you are, ER757. The airplane is still at the delivery center.

Here is the flight plan:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CPA3337
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:37 pm

Boeing is announcing the 747-8 Intercontinental certification testing is done. It took eight months to finish the testing.

"Aviation fans though will continue to see the Intercontinental test fleet in the skies for next few months while the program completes post-certification testing and additional testing for the unique VIP and airline interior configurations.

"The airplane is on track to receive its Amended Type Certificate later this quarter, and the first 747-8 Intercontinental will be delivered in early 2012."
 
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ER757
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 25):
"Aviation fans though will continue to see the Intercontinental test fleet in the skies for next few months

Great news for us Seattle area a.nuts! My office is in Renton and the one in red and orange livery came right over our building at about 800' AGL last week. Everyone ran to the windows to get a peek - an awesome sight for sure.
 
na
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 25):
Boeing is announcing the 747-8 Intercontinental certification testing is done. It took eight months to finish the testing.

Very good.

Quoting Laddie (Reply 25):
"The airplane is on track to receive its Amended Type Certificate later this quarter, and the first 747-8 Intercontinental will be delivered in early 2012."

So we can expect the first LH 748 in, what, February?

Quoting Laddie (Reply 25):
"Aviation fans though will continue to see the Intercontinental test fleet in the skies for next few months while the program completes post-certification testing and additional testing for the unique VIP and airline interior configurations.

I just bought a model of the 748I prototype today. I hope the later owner will keep the stunning red/orange livery (I doubt so though).
 
wilco737
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting na (Reply 27):
So we can expect the first LH 748 in, what, February?

We've been told 1st quarter 2012... Rumours say Feb/ March... So you are close  

wilco737
  
 
na
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 28):
We've been told 1st quarter 2012... Rumours say Feb/ March... So you are close  

My next LH 747 flight will be in late January or Feb, so it´ll be the 744 of cause.
Are there any rumours which destinations will first get the 748I?
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:22 pm

B-LJA due for delivery 11/11/11 with another one for CX on the 18th Nov.
 
N14AZ
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:32 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 25):
"Aviation fans though will continue to see the Intercontinental test fleet in the skies for next few months while the program completes post-certification testing and additional testing for the unique VIP and airline interior configurations.

Did Boeing say it that way? I find it amazing that they adress "aviation fans" in an announcement.
 
Someone83
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:40 pm

When is Cargolux planned to take its 3rd aircraft?
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:18 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 31):
Did Boeing say it that way? I find it amazing that they adress "aviation fans" in an announcement

Yes. That was a direct quote (cut & paste) from the Boeing internal announcement. My source is a Boeing employee.

Quoting someone83 (Reply 32):
When is Cargolux planned to take its 3rd aircraft?

With some good luck, RC503 (L/N 1424) will be delivered this month.
 
N14AZ
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 33):
Yes. That was a direct quote (cut & paste) from the Boeing internal announcement. My source is a Boeing employee.

Thanks for your feedback. So it's not all about shareholder value etc. only.  
 
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:53 pm

After the delivery of RC504 and 502 to Cargolux and RC555 to Cathay in October, we will hopefully see a November delivery of :

RC574, 575, 576 for Atlas air.
RC551 and 554 for Cathay
RC503 for Cargolux (presently in refurbishment at Lackland AFB)

Boeing is expecting to deliver between 10-12 747-8F aircraft in 2011, so in December :
RC541 for Korean
RC601 for Air Bridge Cargo
and one or more for Cathay (RC552 ,553 or even RC556 - expected FAL roll-out December 8 - are available)


RC575 (G-GSSE) emerged yesterday (Oct. 31) from the paint hangar in full BA World Cargo livery, see :
http://paineairport.com/kpae4355.htm
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:52 am

RC574/G-GSSD , ordered by Atlas Air and leased to GSS for service with British Airways World Cargo, made two flights yesterday : one functional check flight and thereafter a customer (acceptance) flight.

See Matt cawby's KPAE blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2011/11/paine-field-november-1.html


After finishing the 747-8 intercontinental certification tests with the return flight IAH-PAE of RC003 (BOE440), several additional test flights will be performed to certify additional features for both the BBJ and airline configuration.
AFAIK the following feature will however NOT be certified  :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhb0s8fp6n4&feature=player_embedded

[Edited 2011-11-02 04:54:31]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
frigatebird
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:08 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 36):
AFAIK the following feature will however NOT be certified :

Too bad. I think it would be a smashing success with the airlines  
146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:03 pm

A further stretch of the upper deck until 0:14 would looking good but after that i'm not sure. After a complete stretch the shape of the iconic 747 is lost, imho.  
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 38):
A further stretch of the upper deck until 0:14 would looking good but after that i'm not sure. After a complete stretch the shape of the iconic 747 is lost, imho.

Besides the "branding" issue, there are also aerodynamic issues. The longer stretch on the-8i actually improves the cruise speed of the 747 just a bit. The area ruling of the wing and fuselage on the -8i is optimal now. Any stretch beyond that would be suboptimal.

This brings up a subject that could be a topic for another thread (if it hasn't been discuassed already): is there another 4-engine jet in the foreseeable future for Boeing or Airbus? All I have seen from both OEMs are studies of 2-engine jets.
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 39):
Besides the "branding" issue, there are also aerodynamic issues. The longer stretch on the-8i actually improves the cruise speed of the 747 just a bit. The area ruling of the wing and fuselage on the -8i is optimal now. Any stretch beyond that would be suboptimal.

Interesting. Thx Laddie for the explanation!
 
na
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:18 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 39):
is there another 4-engine jet in the foreseeable future for Boeing or Airbus? All I have seen from both OEMs are studies of 2-engine jets.

Too early to tell, but if, only a successor of the 748 could be a quad imho - if Boeing builds such plane as a possible competitor to the A380. But I doubt there will be anything decisive in this direction before 2020. By that time there´ll likely be completely new aircraft configurations and propulsions under serious discussion, addressing the fuel issue. Its possible that the 748, 777, 787, A380 and A350 and its 2020s second generation derivatives will become the last large jets with a "classic" look.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 35):
After the delivery of RC504 and 502 to Cargolux and RC555 to Cathay in October, we will hopefully see a November delivery of :

RC574, 575, 576 for Atlas air.
RC551 and 554 for Cathay
RC503 for Cargolux (presently in refurbishment at Lackland AFB)

Boeing is expecting to deliver between 10-12 747-8F aircraft in 2011, so in December :
RC541 for Korean
RC601 for Air Bridge Cargo
and one or more for Cathay (RC552 ,553 or even RC556 - expected FAL roll-out December 8 - are available)

Thanks for this shortterm outlook.
It´ll be interesting to watch whats going to happen with the three rejected Atlas Air frames. They are maybe a discounted hook to catch a new client.
 
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ER757
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 39):
This brings up a subject that could be a topic for another thread (if it hasn't been discuassed already): is there another 4-engine jet in the foreseeable future for Boeing or Airbus? All I have seen from both OEMs are studies of 2-engine jets.

There are limits to how big a twin can be if we assume the 80 meter box at the gate. If/when the time comes for Airbus and/or Boeing to go clean sheet on their replacement for their largest current offering, then a quad would seem to be the only choice. AFAIK, there's nothing like that on the horizon for now.
 
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United787
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting Laddie (Reply 22):
RC574 should be delivered and flown away tomorrow (fingers crossed).
Quoting 747classic (Reply 36):
RC574/G-GSSD , ordered by Atlas Air and leased to GSS for service with British Airways World Cargo, made two flights yesterday : one functional check flight and thereafter a customer (acceptance) flight.

Was RC574 actually delivered yesterday?
 
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 43):
Was RC574 actually delivered yesterday?

No, AFAIK
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
trent900
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:14 am

Hi all.

RC574 is scheduled to arrive at STN on the 4th November (tomorrow) at 07:30 local call sign GSS7478.

The arrival time may vary dependant on the departure time from Paine Field.

D.
 
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Laddie
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 43):
Was RC574 actually delivered yesterday?

She (RC574, L/N 1442, G-GSSD) is parked in front of the Everett Delivery Center, so I assume she will be delivered today.

She is looking very nice in her BA World Cargo livery.

[Edited 2011-11-03 07:26:14]
 
4holer
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:26 pm

Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
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747classic
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 47):
...So what's going on here?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B.../KPAE

Post certification flight testing of RC003, probably ETOPS tests.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
nra-3b
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RE: Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production Part 7

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 43):
Was RC574 actually delivered yesterday?

According To Atlas, they took delivery on 2 Nov.... so, yes.  http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atl...-third-quarter-earnings-2011-11-03

Cheers,
Bob

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