kamloops
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:43 am

I have heard through the rumor mill that West Jet is looking at getting smaller aircrafts,

I have nothing to support this thought,

Any thoughts on what they may get (CRJ, B717, Dash 8),
 
jetblueguy22
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:50 am

Maybe they'll pick up some 717s from WN once the merger is complete!
Blue
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longhauler
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:16 am

If they decide to go for a smaller aircraft, my guess would be the CSeries.

Think of the political "coup" when advertising that THEY bought the Canadian plane.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
Maybe they'll pick up some 717s from WN once the merger is complete
Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
If they decide to go for a smaller aircraft, my guess would be the CSeries.

I think both those types are still too big. Even the smallest CSeries 100 has roughly the same seating capacity as WestJet's current 737-600s, as does the 717.

In my opinion they need something like the Q400 to permit them to serve smaller cities more effectively and with greater frequency. They currently fly 737s into some points with populations of 20,000 or 30,000. That's where AC has a big advantage with Jazz and their other regional affiliates which can serve those types of points much more efficiently and with higher frequency.
 
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lightsaber
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
If they decide to go for a smaller aircraft, my guess would be the CSeries.

Agreed. I bet the financing would be on very favorable terms as well as the political (and PR) coup you noted.

It would be a win-win. I would expect the CS300, to augment the 736s. Unless they flew the CS100 as a hundred seater, which just doesn't make sense to me (nor flying it with just over 100 seats with the 3rd F/A)...

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
Maybe they'll pick up some 717s from WN once the merger is complete!

Not unless the price was *that* low. The higher guarantee cycle life of the PW1000G would be worth it for westjet alone.

Lightsaber
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sxf24
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:28 am

Not a rumor. There are serious discussions for Q400s. Expect to hear more soon.
 
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lightsaber
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:40 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 5):
There are serious discussions for Q400s. Expect to hear more soon.

Awww... C-series would have been so much more exciting.  

Lightsaber
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wedgetail737
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:42 am

I was going to hope that Westjet buys additional 736's.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:45 am

The Q400 is also built in Canada so it would be a political coup as well.
 
steex
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:52 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
The Q400 is also built in Canada so it would be a political coup as well.

Less so given that there are Q400s operated in the AC family, as well (not to mention PD also operating them as competition in the east).
 
Whiteguy
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:10 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 5):
Not a rumor. There are serious discussions for Q400s. Expect to hear more soon.

Clive has said publicly that Westjet guests won't fly props!

Is he going to eat crow???
 
YXXMIKE
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:36 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 10):
Clive has said publicly that Westjet guests won't fly props!

Is he going to eat crow???

He's not at the helm anymore, right? I'd be curious as to which markets they are looking to service with a Q400? YTZ a possibility?? I would have expected a larger sized aircraft order instead of a smaller one to be honest, look at going transatlantic with their service and beat AC to the punch on the lower yielding markets (DUB/BCN/ATH etc). By beat them to the punch, I mean beat them with an already lower existing cost structure.
 
Whiteguy
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 11):
He's not at the helm anymore, right?

Not at the helm but still sits on the board. If anyone believes he's not involved in the decision making at WS your in for a surprise!
 
YXXMIKE
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
Not at the helm but still sits on the board. If anyone believes he's not involved in the decision making at WS your in for a surprise!

I have always been under the impression that he's got quite the ego. Could be wrong but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if he's still pulling strings there.
 
ykaops
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:32 am

My guess is E170's or E175's... doing the Jetblue thing..
 
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EA CO AS
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:43 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
In my opinion they need something like the Q400 to permit them to serve smaller cities more effectively and with greater frequency.

Lest we forget, Gregg Saretsky came from Alaska Air Group, a company that knows a thing or two about deploying Q400s to smaller cities and making it work well.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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yegbey01
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:57 pm

This decision should have been made a long time ago.

Why should WestJet be going after Q400's? to serve what markets? Smaller size cities in Canada? Or to run flights out of YYZ to US cities?

My guess is that it will be either the Cseries or ERJ's which will give them more flexibility in serving US business markets or even leisure markets year-round
 
aamd11
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 11):
YTZ a possibility??

No slots available at YTZ for WS. All 202 slots are currently held by PD (172) and AC (30).

Unless they figured out a way to gain access to a fleet of 26 Q400s and YTZ slots in one shot.  
 
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c172akula
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:30 pm

It was probably about 5 years or so ago that Embraer stopped by the WS hangars in YYC with one of their aircraft. I could see the E-Jets or Q400's coming into the fold.
 
YXXMIKE
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:45 pm

Would a C-Series be that much better version of the 600 that is capable of providing WS much better economics on those thinner routes? It would be nice (even though I'm not a WS fan) to see a WS order for the C Series and a few Q-400's.
 
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c172akula
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Heck I'd like to see WS order something new so us YYC spotters get a bit more variety!
 
LOWS
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:00 pm

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 17):
No slots available at YTZ for WS. All 202 slots are currently held by PD (172) and AC (30).

Presumably, those 202 are daily?
 
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lightsaber
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 19):
Would a C-Series be that much better version of the 600 that is capable of providing WS much better economics on those thinner routes?

   73G seating for about 20% lower per trip costs than the 736.

Sadly, the Q400 makes sense. I'd love to see the C-series at Westjet... But after thinking about it, the Q400 seems more likely.

Lightsaber
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aamd11
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:11 pm

Quoting lows (Reply 21):
Presumably, those 202 are daily?

Yes, 202 daily rotations. So 101 daily departures from YTZ. AC is using all 30 slots right now to run 15x daily YTZ-YUL.

PD is still working on using the last 16 slots awarded - new service to YTS for next year and increased YSB have already been announced, and there'll surely be more to come.
 
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c172akula
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:49 pm

What was the maximum sector distance that the Q400 performs equal to jets?

Just wondering what type of routes out of YYC could see the Q400 take the place of the 737's.
 
kamloops
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:12 pm

For

C172Akula


I would think most of BC, Sask, and maybe a venture into SEA from YYC for the Q400
 
iceberg210
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:39 pm

If I were West Jet seems to me that the C Series would be AWFULLY tempting. A replacement in the 100 for your 736's and a replacement in the 300 for your 73G's. You could have your fleet around one aircraft still but a more economical one (especially compared to the 600). I'm sure Bombardier would be willing to deal especially if you threw some Q400's into the mix...

Likely? Perhaps not, but seems like a pretty decent idea in my book...
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q120
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:41 pm

This makes no sense, considering Westjet wants to expand on longer routes.
I believe they want world domination by 2016... that still planned?
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heathrow
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:25 pm

I guess this all depends on where they plan on deploying them. Even on smaller routes like YQU, the 737 seems to make sense, even cities like YLW and YXU. I'm surious as to if they would be looking at expanding in Canada (destinations like YXJ, YXC, YPE), or flying shorter routes to the U.S. (YYZ NYC, BOS, ORD, etc.)

I think this would be a great move for WS. I know they are following the same kind of business model as WN, but the U.S. has a much larger population and it works for them. All we have up here is Bob from YVR and Jim from YWG....   
 
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting ykaops (Reply 14):
My guess is E170's or E175's...

Agreed....or perhaps the CR9/10.

I don't see the C-Series.....too close in capacity to the 73G, and still a paper plane.

The Q400 would be good for short haul low-capacity markets, but would not address the longer range low-capacity flights that WS also needs to compete on, eg. YYZ-YXE/YQR.

One idea, they could order a mix of E175 and E190's and have Embraer take as trade-ins the 736 fleet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Whiteguy
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting q120 (Reply 27):
This makes no sense, considering Westjet wants to expand on longer routes.
I believe they want world domination by 2016... that still planned?

By getting smaller aircraft they can replace the B737 on routes like YEG, YMM, and YQU to enable some expansion.

I think world domination is still planned but maybe not as quick!   
 
rikkus67
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:46 pm

FINALLY.... Jr.Jet is launched! (OK, that is just MY pipedream.)

Long term it will be interesting to see how long the 736's stay. Is Westjet now the largest operator of the 736? Cseries is a purpose-built lighter aircraft, while the 736's economics aren't any better than the 73G's... with less seating (this is a known fact).

Westjet years ago had been in contact with many smaller airlines, inquiring about smaller centers. Whether or not that was to start a regional wing, I can't say. Personally, for YQL, it would be nice to have another alternative... although originally the idea was East-West through-flights with a stop in Lethbridge (retracing Trans-Canada Air Lines original route....).

Interesting to see where they will serve in Canada next, regardless of the type they decide to go with!
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planemaker
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
I don't see the C-Series.....too close in capacity to the 73G, and still a paper plane.

And not available for 3-4 years at the earliest... and, currently, at a low delivery rate.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
heathrow
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 30):
By getting smaller aircraft they can replace the B737 on routes like YEG, YMM, and YQU to enable some expansion.

I haven't been a frequent flyer on the YQU or YMM routes for about a year, but I used to fly them all the time and loads were good on 737's. Even 73W's on the afternoon flight to YQU. Oil traffic can be very loyal. I'd be surprised to see these routes shift to a smaller aircraft unless they plan on increasing frequency in favour of capacity.
 
BMI727
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:18 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I'd love to see the C-series at Westjet... But after thinking about it, the Q400 seems more likely.

The problem with the CSeries is that it is too big. Sure the CS100 would make a nice replacement for the 737-600s, but that's 13 airframes so the reduced costs would probably be fairly close to canceling out. If WestJet had 30 or 40 of them it might be different, but as it is the CSeries would really need a smaller model than the CS100 to make much sense for them.

The CS300 could do okay filling in for the 737-700s, but lacks the range to perform some of the longest flights.

Overall, I think that the Q400 makes sense for them more than the CSeries, just because of how the fleet and CSeries family is arranged.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
sunrisevalley
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):

Overall, I think that the Q400 makes sense for them more than the CSeries, just because of how the fleet and CSeries family is arranged.

Would they look at the ATR72-600 also? NZ went with them over the Q400 . No idea how they stack up against each other. Some posters on the NZL thread called the Q400 a gas guzzler although no evidence was produced in support of the statement.
 
BMI727
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 35):
Some posters on the NZL thread called the Q400 a gas guzzler although no evidence was produced in support of the statement.

I've heard the same, but the Q400 will cruise some 80 knots faster than the ATR but is more expensive as well. It would probably warrant consideration, but either plane would work well for them.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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wjv04
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:39 pm

What is being discussed here is really about a 1% chance of actually coming to fruition. Internally at WestJet there is little to no discussion of this. The 600s fill the smaller market niches quite nicely as always, and still allow for large operational flexablity being common with the rest of the fleet. If WestJet does add a second type, I would be looking bigger then the 737, not smaller.
 
Viscount724
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Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 23):
Quoting lows (Reply 21):
Presumably, those 202 are daily?

Yes, 202 daily rotations. So 101 daily departures from YTZ. AC is using all 30 slots right now to run 15x daily YTZ-YUL.

Related press release:
http://www.torontoport.com/Airport/N...tions-at-Billy-Bishop-Toronto.aspx

Slots aren't all being used on weekends when frequency drops on many routes. For example, AC (SkyRegional) frequency YTZ-YUL goes from hourly to every 2 hours for much of the day on weekends when business traffic drops off.
 
Bureaucromancer
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 17):

No slots available at YTZ for WS. All 202 slots are currently held by PD (172) and AC (30).

Unless they figured out a way to gain access to a fleet of 26 Q400s and YTZ slots in one shot.  

It wouldn't shock me if some deal were made in the next few years to open up more slots, and at the end of the day the Port Authority will be under significant public pressure if anyone expresses interest in starting service given what happened with the Continental slots. More flights in the corridor has definitely been a big part of their eastern marketing as of late, although as with AC the advantages of the island are questionable between lack of connectivity and the air rail link coming (it seems to me comping train tickets would be more cost effective than setting up on the island).

I really do agree that what would make the most sense if they are looking for more growth is to go larger, and to me that means either 757s or 787s, with the obvious availability problems associated with both. My guess is that they will look very closely at that in the not too distant future, but it won't be until the backlogs start to be reduced on the competitive long range aircraft and the performance numbers become more solid on the re-engined narrow bodies (as in once it becomes clear whether you might be able stretch transatlantic from places other than YYT out of the new 737 MAXs).
 
laca773
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:15 am

It sounds like the E75 would be ideal for WS. The Q400s don't have the range the E75s do which would give them a lot more flexibility to fly medium haul, thin routes more frequently versus operating the heavier and more expensive 736s.
 
YVRLTN
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Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:35 am

Just some thoughts.

One thing about the current 737 fleet is flexibility. Even the 600 has good legs, more than the 800 I believe, but particularly the 700 can operate a YUL or YYZ - YVR transcon, then do a hop to YXS or YLW for example. That flexibility would be gone with a mixed fleet. However, 5 hour transcons are not the be all and end all and I guess the fleet and route network is already large enough for this to not be an issue.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
I don't see the C-Series.....too close in capacity to the 73G, and still a paper plane.

Right now the 737 fleet is on average pretty young, but there are some leased 700's which are already 10 years old. In 5-8 years time, there will be around another 50+ aircraft all built between 2002-2005 will be ready to move on (plus I dont know when those leases expire anyway). In all honesty, I think the 737 MAX is a given at WS, but I would not be surprised to only see 800's and the lower end go to the C-Series as 600 & 700 replacement. While 700's are still being delivered, most of the new deliveries are actually 800's. I have often thought 900ER's would also work well for them, but others on here have always shot me down (if AC can fill 767's on trancons, Hawaii & Mexico then why cant WS fill 900's? But thats a different discussion...).

I would put good money on WS operating the CSeries ahead of AC...

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
One idea, they could order a mix of E175 and E190's and have Embraer take as trade-ins the 736 fleet.

I dont think so. While still very good planes, with the CF34 they are now moving towards the "old technology" category. Orders now will be for the future and long term. Why replace a 736 with todays technology? That includes the CR7/9/X too.

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 16):
Why should WestJet be going after Q400's? to serve what markets? Smaller size cities in Canada? Or to run flights out of YYZ to US cities?

Im really not too familiar the demographics in the east, but in the west there are plenty of routes on the surface of it. Ex YVR routes to YLW, YKA & YXS seem to be perfect examples, and there are many ex YYC & YEG into YMM, BC, SK & MB, note the competition fly old Dash 8's or CRJ1/200's for the most part. It would be an interesting study to find out what is cheaper, a single 73G flight or two Q400 flights. If these routes are currently operating with a decent LF - which they must be to still exist - then it will take two Q400's to replace a single 73G flight in terms of seats. While frequencies would have to increase, which no doubt would be good for their guests ( ) I really have no idea if bottom line they would actually make more money. If I had to guess one way or the other, I would say no. Which would mean Q400's would be more to take on Jazz at smaller stations, particularly in the east. A lot of this feed is into international & Star partner flights, so I just done see it, not until they have their own 787's flying transatlantic to several destinations or possibly full OneWorld membership anyway. Which may be closer than we think of course (lots of lessors with unallocated Dreamliners... ).

So many what ifs, but my 2 cents are on the CSeries.
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yyz717
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:58 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 41):
I think the 737 MAX is a given at WS

Agreed.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 41):
I have often thought 900ER's would also work well for them

On some routes no doubt. But does it make sense for WS to order a small fleet of 739ER when their 738 fleet is still small? Might be operationally better to build up their 738 fleet.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 41):
It would be an interesting study to find out what is cheaper, a single 73G flight or two Q400 flights. If these routes are currently operating with a decent LF - which they must be to still exist - then it will take two Q400's to replace a single 73G flight in terms of seats.

It's not a question of which is cheaper but which can generate more traffic/revenue at lower incremental cost. Generating more traffic often relies on more frequencies which means smaller aircraft. For instance, WS operates 1x daily 73G on YYZ-YXE vs 4x daily AC E190...clearly the latter is more convenient for most people. If WS operated the E175, they could also offer 2-3 dailies on the same route with incremental revenue possibly exceeding incremental costs.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
YVRLTN
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 42):
On some routes no doubt. But does it make sense for WS to order a small fleet of 739ER when their 738 fleet is still small? Might be operationally better to build up their 738 fleet.

I think they will when the MAX comes along. There has been a higher proportion of 800's in the latest deliveries. Its no different than operating a small subfleet of 600's as they do now is it? Im pretty sure they could operate at least 20 on key trunk routes & WS Vacations flights to LAS, FL, HI, Mexico & the Caribbean.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 42):
It's not a question of which is cheaper but which can generate more traffic/revenue at lower incremental cost.

Which is why it would be an interesting study. Operating 3x the aircraft would increase the costs with the extra crew, fuel, landing / airport / Navcan fees etc plus the aircraft payment, insurance & mx etc itself. Bottom line I dont know if they would make more money. For example, to operate 4x YVR-YLW flight a day, to replace the current 736/G seat for seat is 7-8 Q400 flights. That is surely a huge increase in costs too and I honestly dont know if the potential revenue increase from the extra frequency would be there. Surely the price of the tickets = revenue would have to be the same, but it would seem the incremental costs rise?

Another thing to consider is that while the 737 is no cargo hauler even compared to the A32S, it sure beats the Q400 or even C Series hands now. WS Cargo is a nice little earner.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
cyeg66
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:46 pm

WS could get props and operate them under their new subsidiary's banner: Westprop.   While economically speaking it may seem possible, I don't think it'll happen. They're consistently profitable, whereas the 'enemy' isn't, no matter what the enemy seems to do. That said, with Saretsky now at the helm, it appears more likely now than before that they could move away from a single type. Time will tell.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
ykaops
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Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Gee, I heard they have ordered 12 G650's and named the subsidiary "BusinessJet" to open new Transpac services to HKG/PVG and NRT in an all EconomyComfort class      
 
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c172akula
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:47 pm

Rumour is there will be an announcement tomorrow at WS about a new operating model that may involve a smaller regional player in Canada.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 46):
Rumour is there will be an announcement tomorrow at WS about a new operating model that may involve a smaller regional player in Canada.

That would be a very interesting move if it happens. Question: if WS go for, say a swack of Q400s, would they be tempted to dump their -600s ?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:37 am

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 46):
Rumour is there will be an announcement tomorrow at WS about a new operating model that may involve a smaller regional player in Canada.

Very interesting. Possibly in response to Rovinescu's recent rambling about an AC budget carrier?...Or maybe just to make sure PD stays in the east?  
Flying refined.
 
haggisman
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:53 pm

RE: Rumor - WestJet - Getting Smaller Planes

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:37 am

I'd love to see Westjet get some Q400s and go head to head with Air Canada on the YVR-YCD route. Air Canada have had it to themselves for years and as a result prices have doubled in the last three years - $142 for a 7 minute flight.

That would fill in Westjets Vancouver Island service nicely. They already fly Comox to Calgary and Victoria to Calgary. Feeding their YVR base with traffic from the island would be a good move in my opinion.

Scotty
e pluribus Scotsman

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