qantas747flyer
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Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:59 am

According to news reports, Iran Air are considering using Qatari (presumably Qatar Airways) aircraft to operate domestic flights within Iran. Managing Director of Iran Air, Farhad Parvaresh, has recently been quoted as saying that the "Issue is now under study" and has cited "Cabotage law" as a means for Iran to do this. If this is indeed the case then Iran finally appears to have found a novel way of circumventing US sanctions, which restricts Iran from acquiring new aircraft from Boeing and Airbus to replace their aging fleet.

It certainly will be interesting to see how this develops, and I for one hope that for the passengers sake this plan can be realized as it is bound to dramatically improve Iran's questionable air safety standards. Any thoughts?

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007271302
 
malioil
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:11 am

A lot of people from the GCC would tell you that Qatar's relationship with Iran keeps all our governments somewhat uneasy, but this at least would be a positive development.

Iran's aviation safety record must improve, and it is very hard to improve anything with their current access to spare parts/aircraft. If QR (or Qatar for that matter) can give the Iranian public the aircraft necessary to drastically improve the ailing safety standards, then irrespective of political stance it would be the right thing to do.

The Iranian people should never pay for their government's mistakes.
 
5MillionMiler
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:47 am

Interesting approach. Sounds like a good plan which makes sense.

Have to give credit to engineers at Iran Air (and aviation support in Iran) though -- they have made due for decades with very little access to spare parts and kept an old fleet flying. From ancient Boeings to F4s.

I do not agree with the politics there, but they have so many talented, smart people in the country.
 
qantas747flyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting malioil (Reply 1):
Iran's aviation safety record must improve, and it is very hard to improve anything with their current access to spare parts/aircraft.

Unfortunately this is largely the result of sanctions facing the country. Speaking of sanctions, it makes you wonder if the US will attempt to block the Qatar government or Qatar Airways from going ahead with their plan with the Iranians, especially since Qatar Airways has code-share agreements with several US airlines including US Airways and United, which could potentially turn this into a politically sensitive venture for the Qatari's.

More info on the following article:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...domestic-routes-in-sanctionsh.aspx

[Edited 2011-10-30 06:32:46]
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:25 pm

Given how tightly the US is trying to enforce these sanctions, I can see the US warning QR (and their government) that QR could lose its us landing/overfly rights and could force the suspension of any code sharing QR does with any U.S. based airlines and could even threaten to sanction any other airline which code shares/allies with QR with sanctions as well.

The law is very broadly based and is intended to be comprehensive. I can't see QR taking that chance.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:36 pm

If such sanction busting concepts come to fruition, QR and any other supporting organisations should definitely be added to the list.
As is I know several Armenian firms that lease planes to Iran have felt the squeeze as their banking transactions have been restricted.

But I doubt Qatar, or any other nation is dumb enough to risk so much global activity for a little added revenue from Iran.

Quoting malioil (Reply 1):
The Iranian people should never pay for their government's mistakes.

Sure they should.

They sleep in the bed they make.

They are free form the government of their choice, and need to deal with the good or bad results.

And for those that say they don't have a choice, sure they do. We've already seen them quite adeptly change their system already once.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
777way
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:42 pm

I hope its comes to fruition against all odds.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:07 pm

Well, they have 200+ plane orders. The old A330's and A320s have to go somewhere!
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Sure they should.

They sleep in the bed they make.

They are free form the government of their choice, and need to deal with the good or bad results.

And for those that say they don't have a choice, sure they do. We've already seen them quite adeptly change their system already once.

When given the choice of replacing what you thought was an oppressive government with a new form of government in the hopes that the new government (be it a theocracy, a council, a military-run government, etc) will bring better times, you vote yes a thousand times. Little did Iranians know back in 1979 that their government would slowly turn against them, in the pretense that power is for the people and guided by a cleric, when the real situation is that the power is for the clerics.

IMO, airlines should not be subject to sanctions and an airline is a dire situation as Iran Air could really use an overhaul of their equipment. The only negative aspect of this: the 707s might be grounded since there would be no need to have old tankers flying.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:33 pm

No need to get into deep political discussions here, but I'd like to correct something.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
Little did Iranians know back in 1979 that their government would slowly turn against them, in the pretense that power is for the people and guided by a cleric, when the real situation is that the power is for the clerics.

Leading up to 1979, the Iranian people knew what ideology and power was behind the power to topple the Shah. Its not like Imam Khomeini was unknown or was being hidden under a rock. His broadcast tirades, lectures and writings against the Shah were well followed by many for years leading up to Shah's toppling.

To follow this up, the Iranian people repeatedly in subsequent years further voted on referendums on subjects like eliminate the Monarchy and replace it with an Islamic government, and then eventually voted on creation of a new
constitution which placed much of the power directly under clerical governance.

As someone that has lived in the region, have plenty of Iranian contacts, I don't buy the theory that the Iranian people were duped into anything. They very compliantly changed their governance one step after another. Now they live with it.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
IMO, airlines should not be subject to sanctions

An airline is an arm and instrument of their governments. Look at Pan Am, and how it was referred to as " America's Chosen Instrument."

This concept goes back to the 1920s, and the establishment of the most basic air-service agreement between nations, and how air-service played an important role in representing countries and their interest both political and economic.

Aviation and politics are intertwined, and act side by side for both good, and for bad as some might see it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
roseflyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:47 pm

I do not see a problem if Iran opens its domestic market to foreign carriers operating on their own accord. However if Iran wet leases aircraft then it might be a problem since the latest sanctions are also financially against Iran air since it is a government business.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
HiJazzey
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:47 pm

If I understand this correctly, Iran are considering offering cabotage to the Qataris. So QR wouldn't be leasing out the planes, but actually operate the flights.
I don't see any issue with this. They (and other airlines) already operate flights to Iran, they'll just be getting some extra revenue by carrying some domestic traffic.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 11):
I don't see any issue with this. They (and other airlines) already operate flights to Iran, they'll just be getting some extra revenue by carrying some domestic traffic.

Flying to Iran is one thing, operating flights on behalf of Iran Air or code sharing/wet leasing/operating agreement for domestic flights will be a problem.
 
Markam
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
Given how tightly the US is trying to enforce these sanctions, I can see the US warning QR (and their government) that QR could lose its us landing/overfly rights and could force the suspension of any code sharing QR does with any U.S. based airlines and could even threaten to sanction any other airline which code shares/allies with QR with sanctions as well.

The law is very broadly based and is intended to be comprehensive. I can't see QR taking that chance.

Mind that Qatar is no no-one these days... they have 15% of the world's proven natural gas reserves, and have an immense weight in the international LNG market. Any commercial sanctions against them would likely be seen with not very good eyes by many big players in the international stage, including many U.S. corporations with interests in the country and a big lobbying crew in Washington. So, sanctions against Qatar... I-do-not-think-so. What is likely is that, if it comes to that, the U.S. government will talk with them behind the scenes to negotiate some kind of agreement to avoid them doing the cabotage in Iran, so that no conflict arises publicly in the first place.

In three words: "Gas Saudi Arabia"  

[Edited 2011-10-30 16:48:00]
 
yak42
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:55 pm

I think it would not be a huge concession if it happened (isnt cabotage already widespread in the EU, Australasia and Chile?) and would definately improve both the market and safety standards in the Iranian domestic market. I think they should open it to more than just Qatar though. Qatar only has one airline, and what if it doesnt choose to enter the market. They should open the market to maybe, Armenia, Tajikistan and Oman too. They should deregulate the ticket pricing structure while they are at it.
 
something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:10 am

If 49% state owned LH can sell their A300s to Iran Air and Qatar is hosting, among others, Canadian Forces after they got kicked out of Dubai, you can bet your a%% QR can offer domestic flights in Iran.

How would such an arrangement even strengthen Iran? It would put many Iranians out of work, deprive them of a golden stream of forex and put their own flights under much bigger scrutiny compared to what is possible with their own planes.

Holding the travelling public hostage of your own political problems is only inciting the hatred against America. It won't weaken the Iranian government, the Iranian cleric, nor would I strenghten the Iranian dissidents.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
irelayer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:15 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Leading up to 1979, the Iranian people knew what ideology and power was behind the power to topple the Shah. Its not like Imam Khomeini was unknown or was being hidden under a rock. His broadcast tirades, lectures and writings against the Shah were well followed by many for years leading up to Shah's toppling.

To follow this up, the Iranian people repeatedly in subsequent years further voted on referendums on subjects like eliminate the Monarchy and replace it with an Islamic government, and then eventually voted on creation of a new
constitution which placed much of the power directly under clerical governance.

As someone that has lived in the region, have plenty of Iranian contacts, I don't buy the theory that the Iranian people were duped into anything. They very compliantly changed their governance one step after another. Now they live with it.

Heh. I love how you say "no need to get into deep political discussions" and then you start one. You don't have to buy any theories. It's well known that the revolution started as an anti-Monarchy movement involving an alliance of secularists, intellectuals and Ayatollahs (and even Communists!) etc and was very skillfully hijacked by Ayatollah Khomeini and his cronies. The system of government you see today is NOT the will of the majority of the Iranian people. You have the benefit of hindsight. The people who hated the Shah, his secret police, and his oppressive regime didn't.

More to point, I think it's ridiculous that we don't sell used aircraft to Iran at somewhat of a markup. They'd buy it, with cash, and everyone would be better off for it. It'd be a GREAT way of easing some tension too. At this point, I don't see harm in it really. Or maybe an officially sanctioned leasing arrangement with somewhat more restrictive terms? I really don't see why the commercial aviation sector has to suffer like this any longer. Maybe there was a point to it all before, but I think it's long forgotten and this is just a punitive measure that really doesn't hurt the government of Iran as much as they think it does.

-IR
 
LAXintl
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting irelayer (Reply 16):
Heh. I love how you say "no need to get into deep political discussions" and then you start one.

I made a correction to previous poster. And I'll do the same with your comments.

Back in 1977, 1978 and 1979 living in neighboring Turkey, we well knew that if the Shah fell, Iran would see some form of theocratic government. Imam Khomeini whose lectures were happily smuggled into Iran and widely listened to very openly spoke about topics such as a Koranic state. Matter of fact based on Shia history, a man from Qom would arrive to lead the people to on a Jihad, which is what the revolution against the Shah became.

So the Iranian people should not have been surprised when they voted and supported one initiative after another, from abolishing the monarchy, to forming a Islamic State, to drafting a new constitution which gave high powers to clerical body. They did this all very willingly over some years.

Quoting irelayer (Reply 16):
More to point, I think it's ridiculous that we don't sell used aircraft to Iran at somewhat of a markup. They'd buy it, with cash, and everyone would be better off for it. It'd be a GREAT way of easing some tension too. At this point, I don't see harm in it really. Or maybe an officially sanctioned leasing arrangement with somewhat more restrictive terms? I really don't see why the commercial aviation sector has to suffer like this any longer. Maybe there was a point to it all before, but I think it's long forgotten and this is just a punitive measure that really doesn't hurt the government of Iran as much as they think it does.

We don't sell them aircraft as they do things like this with them.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Saeed Ezadi



Note the inflight refuelling capability on the ex TWA 747.

Commercial aircraft clearly have dual uses, whether formally modified for military usage or at the very least can be used as a troop carriers.

Not something we want to aid with.
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PanHAM
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting something (Reply 15):
If 49% state owned LH can sell their A300s to Iran Air and Qatar is hosting, among others, Canadian Forces after they got kicked out of Dubai, you can bet your a%% QR can offer domestic flights in Iran.

sorry but LH is 100 % privately owned, all shares are traded, the exception is that they are name shares and 50% + one share must be owned by German nationals. LH did not sell A300s to Iran either, they sold to companies who then sold to Iran, that is a difference.

As to the question, if QR flies domestic Iranian services trhey will be hoit by sanctions, I doubt that QR will enter this venture, it would severely jeopardize their relations to the US and to Israel as well.
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qantas747flyer
Topic Author
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:19 am

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 11):
If I understand this correctly, Iran are considering offering cabotage to the Qataris. So QR wouldn't be leasing out the planes, but actually operate the flights.
I don't see any issue with this.

According to the following article on Gulf News: http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...ly-iran-s-domestic-routes-1.921005

"The deal would see Qatar Airways operate a code-share arrangement with Iranian airlines to comply with laws excluding non-Iranian companies from domestic routes, the CEO of flag-carrier Iran Air, Farhad Parvaresh, said."

If Qatar Airways agrees to operate domestic flights in Iran under a code-share agreement with sanctioned airlines such as Iran Air and Mahan Air, would they themselves not become the target of US sanctions? Qatar Airways CEO, Akbar Al-baker is renowned for being a strong willed man, but is he seriously prepared to go head to head with the US government over this?

According to Gulf News, in Iran, "Around 15 serious air accidents over the past decade have killed more than 900 people" Given Iran's shockingly poor air safety record, I really hope they can pull this off for the sake of passenger safety, but somehow I have the feeling that the US will find a spanner to throw in the works and Al-baker will be forced to back down. Time will tell I guess...
 
777way
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:51 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
their relations to the US and to Israel as well.

Didnt they break off whatever links with Israel after the Gaza attack or Lebanon war, and do they care about Israel? I really, really hope more Arab and Islamic and non-Islamic regional airlines from CIS do the cabotage thing with Iran, come what may.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:28 am

What is sometimes overlooked is that Iran is not Arabia and its heritage is Persian, not Arabic. Iran is as different from Arabia as England is from France or Italy.

Different cultures, different histories, different languages similar but different religious beliefs.

I spent a couple of months in Iran and even though I had worked across the Persian Gulf from Iran for years, I was still more influenced by the media image of Iran than I knew since that image is almost nothing like what I experienced.

Tehran is a bustling metropolis with the worst traffic on the planet. Ahwaz, which is where I spent the most time, is a 30 minute drive from the Iraqi border and one of the most heavily bombarded cities during the Iran-Iraq war and is one of the centers of the Iranian petroleum industry.

For the most part, and I can only speak for those I met, like most places, the government doesn't affect the day to day lives of the citizens...but it is cyclical. Sometimes, the government decides that it doesn't like the hippy haircuts and orders brushcuts for all men. Women must have their hair covered but governmental whim can change wardrobe requirements without notice.

I worked with a lady who was something of a rebel in that she would take off her head scarf at work...which is not just immoral, it's illegal. It is an offense which could land her in jail.

As it turns out, one old, ornery, disgruntled man was offended by her position and went behind her back to the morality police regarding her shocking scarfless behavior. Only by virtue of her value to the company, they spoke on her behalf and she was allowed to keep her job but her most important task of going to the immigration department and getting visas for foreign workers, was taken away and she was forbidden to question the decision or even enter the building, upon pain of prosecution.

I am Canadian but internationally, I'm usually mistaken for American. Even though there are huge billboards across the city proclaiming death to the great satan and death to America, I was always, and I mean without exception, treated politely and well...in fact in a friendly manner.

The level of education is at least as high as any western country and there are many women professionals including doctors, engineers and lawyers.

I could go on but I'll save you from that. To get back to the Airline topic, I flew with a few Iranian airlines and a variety of aircraft including F-50's, MD-83's, and a Tu-154. I traveled alone and was never accosted and never felt I was in any danger...and believe me, they knew I was not Iranian.

I actually felt better on the Russian iron since I knew that they could get new parts for them.

This is turning into more of a trip report but suffice to say I was pleasantly surprised by Iran. The people were universally interesting and interested in my life and I got to like most of the people I met, a lot.

That makes the sanctions even worse...they do almost nothing to quell the ardor and insanity of the government and definitely do harm to the citizens...and like most conflict, it's the innocent who pay the highest price.

The mullahs are getting old and Iran has one youngest populations and they are educated and very aware of the world at large. I have no doubt that a Persian spring is inevitable...the sooner the better.
What the...?
 
something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
sorry but LH is 100 % privately owned, all shares are traded, the exception is that they are name shares and 50% + one share must be owned by German nationals. LH did not sell A300s to Iran either, they sold to companies who then sold to Iran, that is a difference.

Ah, I didn't know that. To my best knowledge LH was still partially state owned.

About LH selling A300s to Mahan and Iran Air it is true that they circumvented it via a Kazakh leasing company. But I don't see how that is any different in terms of ''supporting Iran'' than by offering cabotage flights.

Qatar and Iran are sitting on the world's largest gas reserves and if history is any indicator, money that big will turn any friend into an enemy. The USA at the same time is very dependend on Qatar as a key ally in the region; be it for the use of their military bases, be it politcally or economic entanglement.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...se-for-u-s-attack-on-iran-1.328081

One would think that Qatar is playing a dangerous game by not pledging allegiance to one ''side'' only. But both 'sides' (USA/Israel/Arab League - Iran/Iraq/Syria/Hamas) need Qatar far too much to turn their back on them. Qatar's air bases are a much more valuable asset to the USA and Canada than denying the travelling Iranian public safer air travel. Iran on the other hand is so desperate that they have no other choice but to make friends with people who are the accessory to their own, (possible) eventual murder.

I also doubt that a political revolution in Iran is imminent. What we, as ''Westerners'', have to understand is that Arabs and Persians alike look at the world differently than we do. According to a recent study 62% of the Egyptians want their laws to be in accordance with Sharia law, 82% approve of the stoning of adulterers, 77% of the amputation of hands of thiefs. 84% of Egyptians demand the death penalty for people that want to leave Islam.

In other, more colloquial terms: All of these countries are extremely f*d up [by our standards]. We should either not make business with them at all, or accept the fact that we are spineless rubes with no integrity. Providing the Iranian public with safer, domestic air travel is nothing that I think they deserve by virtue, but as it also doesn't increase international threat levels I don't see the point in banning them.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:55 pm

Do you have reason to believe that LH knew about the sale to Mahan and Iran Air? Selling to a Khazak leasing company or whomever does not necessarily mean that they did and if they did, they would have had an OK from the US, since otherwise that would be a breach of US customs regulations, for the engines and other parts. An airline like LH could simply not afford that.

So let's not speculate, there was no reaction from the US over this and Lh also operates daily flights to THR ,
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
Qatar and Iran are sitting on the world's largest gas reserves and if history is any indicator, money that big will turn any friend into an enemy. The USA at the same time is very dependend on Qatar as a key ally in the region; be it for the use of their military bases, be it politcally or economic entanglement.

I worked in Doha for over a year, about a kilometer away from the Al Nahlah airport which is a huge US base in Qatar.

Iran is about a 5 minute missile flight from Iran and if push came to shove, there is little that Qatar needs from the US. Qatar sells its gas to Europe, (who really needs the gas), and really isn't beholding to the US form much at all. While they no doubt want to keep the peace while the US is so heavily involved in the neighborhood, Iran is the big dog in the park and no country in the region, (except maybe Iraq), has any interest on being on the wrong side of Iran's ire.

Nobody will sanction Qatar for anything, regardless of whether or not they take over Iranian domestic flights, the same way nobody has sanctioned Saudi Arabia for supporting terrorism, some of which is directly aimed at the west. Not only is Saudi not punished, the last civilian plane in the air on 9/11 was a 727 picking up Saudi nationals, hours after other Saudi nationals flew planes into American targets.

Interesting factoid; Doha is almost exactly 400 km due south from the Iranian Bushehr Nuclear power plant.

Quoting something (Reply 22):

I also doubt that a political revolution in Iran is imminent. What we, as ''Westerners'', have to understand is that Arabs and Persians alike look at the world differently than we do. According to a recent study 62% of the Egyptians want their laws to be in accordance with Sharia law, 82% approve of the stoning of adulterers, 77% of the amputation of hands of thiefs. 84% of Egyptians demand the death penalty for people that want to leave Islam.

What 'westerners' have to understand is that Arabs and Persians actually do look at the world much the same as we do. What they want, more than sharia law, is jobs, shelter, to feed their families, to get along with their neighbors and otherwise live a boring, normal life.

Westerners love to point fingers at others and crow about their moral superiority...yet will trade with, (and prop up), any despotic regime that provides them some momentary advantage, regardless of how that regime treats its citizens.

The vase majority of the Arabs and Persians I met expressed no interest in stoning or amputation. Egypt, as imperfect as is was and still is, is heads and tails above the wests' best friend in the Middle east, Saudi Arabia in terms of female equality and liberation.

How many decades did the West tolerate the despotic regimes of Egypt, Libya, Algeria, etc, all because of some economic benefit...regardless how they treated their citizens? The west allows every one of the crimes against humanity described above from their very best friends...if it supports the regime, doesn't it also mean it supports the regimes policies?

Surveys can be skewed to support any position the pollster wishes to promote.

What Iranians know and has been proven time and again, is that the citizenry is on it's own in any battle with the powers that be. While the mighty west is keen on blasting Ghadaffi off the map, there is not the smallest chance that any outside forces would come to the aid of the Iranian populace should they choose to revolt...as was shown during the demonstrations after the last election.

How eager would the average westerner be to face an armed military with nothing more than words?

Qatar can do whatever it wants and other than silly and useless lip service, will be completely immune to any action from the west.
What the...?
 
something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Nobody will sanction Qatar for anything, regardless of whether or not they take over Iranian domestic flights
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
there is little that Qatar needs from the US

That's what I've been trying to say. As discussed in a parallel thread, the only thing I see in the way of QR commencing domestic Iranian flights is their cost advantage. Iran Air buys subsidized jet fuel at US $ 0.33 per liter. QR would have to pay the going rate of US $ 0.60 per liter.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
What they want, more than sharia law, is jobs, shelter, to feed their families, to get along with their neighbors and otherwise live a boring, normal life.

Which for better or worse most Iranians have. The protests are a movement of what is often called the ''intellectual youth'' in the bigger cities that have very little professional prospects in their country and who have moved on to a more moderate muslim lifestyle. Unfortunately, the Iranian state is much too strong for this minority of people to stand any chance of over-throwing the current government. Hence my scepticism about an Iranian revolution being imminent.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Westerners love to point fingers at others and crow about their moral superiority...yet will trade with, (and prop up), any despotic regime that provides them some momentary advantage, regardless of how that regime treats its citizens.

That's what the ''free market'' dictates. And because everybody is guilty of that hipocrisy, it seems to have become socially acceptable.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
While the mighty west is keen on blasting Ghadaffi off the map, there is not the smallest chance that any outside forces would come to the aid of the Iranian populace should they choose to revolt...as was shown during the demonstrations after the last election.

I would not say that anymore at this stage. I think an US-led hit against Iran is becoming increasingly likely. Especially should Obama not make it to a second term. But there's really no ideal solution to the problem. You can either get rid of the a crazy fanatic that will soon possess nuclear weapons, but has not yet made any concrete threats against the US and open the doors of Iran to al Qaida. Or you can keep things the way they are and hope it's all going to work out.

Which by the by, is the same situation Syria is facing right now. The Assad regime may murder its own people, but at least keeps its problem domestic. A Syria after Assad could likely become terrorism-infested and turn into an international problem.

But as you've rightly pointed out, all of these problems are home made. The West should have never had any truck in the region. But that would suck for every oil dependend industries, industries operate short-sighted and have no conscience and can therefore not take problems in the long run into consideration. And this clusterf*ck if you will, is one of the things ''Occupy Wallstreet'' protests against. The Republican's response: Get a job.

Their ability of missing the point verges on the superhuman. And you and I wonder why we're in this mess in the first place lol

But back to the topic..

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Qatar can do whatever it wants and other than silly and useless lip service, will be completely immune to any action from the west.

It may go beyond lip service. Maybe the USA will move their air bases from Qatar to Kuwait. Will cause a good few chuckles behind Dohanian curtains..
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting something (Reply 25):
Unfortunately, the Iranian state is much too strong for this minority of people to stand any chance of over-throwing the current government. Hence my scepticism about an Iranian revolution being imminent.

That's what the Shah thought.

I agree that we're not likely to see any regime change in the next year or two but It was the Iranian protests over the last election which some say were the impetus to the Arab Spring. You can be sure that the boys in Tehran are taking notes...as are the people on the street.

The reason there has not been another revolution in Iran is that despite external opinion to the contrary, the Iranian government isn't usually involved in the day to day lives of the Iranian people. In many ways, there is more personal freedom in Iran than in many other US friendly countries, especially Saudi Arabia. There are very stiff penalties for breaking any religious laws. On the other hand, a few grams of hash can get you a dozen years in a US pen.

When I was in Iran, it took about 30 seconds in Kish to get a visa to enter the country, (less effort than the new UAE visas...and cheaper). I didn't have any police or other official, (that I could tell), following me and locals approached me and spoke with me without pause on any subject you can imagine, including the ruling regime.

Unlike in many Arab states, Iranian women had no problem approaching me in public and asking questions about virtually anything.

Gasoline was 8 cents per litre, 30 cents a gallon.. for regular. Premium was 50% more expensive at 12 cents per litre.

If the current regime decides to significantly crack down on what personal freedoms they have, I have no doubt you'll see revolution in Iran.

Iran is an amazing country...but the wackjobs running the show are preventing most of the world from knowing that first hand.

Crap...I keep going off...but speaking of airlines...the US can leave Qatar any time they like and the Emir wouldn't lose a minutes sleep. As long as there is a market for their gas, Qatar can do what it likes.
What the...?
 
yak42
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
What we, as ''Westerners'', have to understand is that Arabs and Persians alike look at the world differently than we do. According to a recent study 62% of the Egyptians want their laws to be in accordance with Sharia law, 82% approve of the stoning of adulterers, 77% of the amputation of hands of thiefs. 84% of Egyptians demand the death penalty for people that want to leave Islam.

That is an extremely racist, offensive and orientalist view. Dont know where you got your bull**** stats but going by your link to an Israeli newspaper Im not going to wonder too mutch about their credibility.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
there is not the smallest chance that any outside forces would come to the aid of the Iranian populace should they choose to revolt...as was shown during the demonstrations after the last election.

Whatever Iranians in Iran think of their government they would be pretty mutch united in fending off attacks by foreigners.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting yak42 (Reply 27):
Whatever Iranians in Iran think of their government they would be pretty mutch united in fending off attacks by foreigners.

You defend your home regardless who attacks....that's just the way it is. Everybody is the same in that regard.
What the...?
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:50 am

I cant believe the comments here. They crack me up.

First you impose an a.net trade embargo on Qatar, then you decide to move the US base to Kuwait. What next? Bring the Cubans here. I thought political discussions are not allowed in the forums!

Qatar would never do anything against international law. It will not jeopordize its relationship with the US for 10 A320 flights a week or whatever. If the US didnt like it, one phone call from the US embassy would stop these flights.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
777way
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:47 am

And how proudly you state that in the last paragraph.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 29):
 
qantas747flyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:17 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 29):
one phone call from the US embassy would stop these flights.

I suspect there will be some serious dialogue between the US and Qatar over this, I'm not sure it's as easy as one phone call? The US will not take kindly to Iran Air's latest attempts to circumvent US sanctions by having Qatar Airways carry out flights on their behalf in Iran (under code-share) so are likely to look to stifle these plans in any way they can.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:20 pm

I don't really understand what's going on here...

Should we conclude, from some comments here, that any regime, government that refuses to do what the "west" wants them to do, is automatically illegitimate and even the most inhumane actions against that country/government are therefore considered as something normal acceptable? Where are we living?! That is total insanity.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
777way
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:30 pm

Especially reply #5 is the worst opinion, thankfully the posters, that I have ever come accross regarding any country thats considered rogue.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:31 pm

I think there is a chance this could work with one *major* restriction:The aircraft would probably have to be parked in DOH every night due to prior Iranian use of commercial aircraft for military purposes as already noted.

This is almost like letting Dubai refine gasoline from oil for Iran. It gives the US government something to sanction. I'm trying to avoid the minimum of politics, but thsi is a politically driven situation. Allowing QR fligths domestically, with restrictions, removes a point of critisism for the embargo. If QR is allowed 'triangle routes' in Iran (DOH-Iranairport#1-Iranairport#2-DOH), I could see this as a win-win.
1. Restricts the number of intra-Iran flights due to the DOH-legs and the economics of those over-water legs.
2. Provides 'modern aircraft' to mitigate the saftey concerns
3. If Iran makes too much noise, the flights could be cut.
4. Technically, every night the aircraft (and staff) are at DOH.

More western exposure for the Iranians, safer air travel, no technical transfer of aircraft to Iran...
The part about the aircraft over-nighting at DOH is important. It makes it so they couldn't readily be seized (in bulk).

Yes, this scheme would *really* limit the number of flights within Iran due to the DOH-Iran market quickly becoming saturated. Another aspect that makes it 'politically feasible.'

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
777way
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
More western exposure for the Iranians,

How? cabin crew wise? what makes you think it wont be manned by all Iranian origin QR crew?
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
As someone that has lived in the region,

Where in the region have you lived? I would really like to know...
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
qantas747flyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
3. If Iran makes too much noise, the flights could be cut.

Regardless of the amount of "Noise" Iran Air makes, my guess is that the US already knows about the scheme with Qatar and is drawing up plans to prevent this project from materializing and taking root. It is naive to think that the US would allow Iran to so easily circumvent US engineered sanctions targeted at Iran's airlines by way of utilizing a foreign proxy, in this case Qatar Airways. Qatar Airways could very well get its fingers burnt over this. We will see I guess...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:55 am

What seems to be ignored by some here is the fact that the sanctions against Iran are not only imposed by the US but by the UN as well. The whole complex is very detailled and complex but compliance is in the highest interest of any person or company doing business with Iran.

As a freight forwarder, if a customer tenders a shipment going to that country, regardless which mode of transport, the list of sanctions, US as well as UN, must be checked. If the shipper, the consignee or the commodity is listed, it cannot be accepted. The same standards will aplly to this project. QR can only perform cabotage tag flights within Iran if these are not covered by sanctions.

If that is ignored, the violating company will be listed as well.
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something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):

Which is of course correct.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
the list of sanctions, US as well as UN
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
If the shipper, the consignee or the commodity is listed, it cannot be accepted

The sanctions aren't given out arbitrarily. Iran Air, for example, has been subjected to sanctions because they are accused of - among other things - illegal transport of weapons, money laundering, transfering money to terrorist organisations, procurement of materials for Iran's nuclear program and assistance in espionage operations. Mahan Air is accused of financing the Al-Kuds unit that is suspected to be behind the assassination plot against the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the United States.

I guess we will never know how much truth there is to these allegations or if they're being used as a pretense to apply sanctions to Iranian airlines in an effort to further isolate them from the rest of the world. But in either way, the sanctions are not aimed at taking the ability to travel/fly from the Iranian public.

QR would arguably not engage in illegal practices, should they commence domestic Iranian flights. Should QR start flying there, they would take a lot of money away from Iran Air and bring it to the verge of collapse. In fact, it might even be the USA after all to encourage these flights. Having your partner operate flights on behalf of your enemy would add a lot of transparency to these operations and deprive Iran of an important trade channel with other nations. I don't see how that is a bad thing.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
qantas747flyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:14 am

Quoting something (Reply 39):
Should QR start flying there, they would take a lot of money away from Iran Air and bring it to the verge of collapse.

Judging from the statements made by Iran Air CEO, Farhad Parvaresh, the Iranians sound pretty sure of themselves:

Quoting qantas747flyer (Reply 19):
According to the following article on Gulf News: http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...ly-iran-s-domestic-routes-1.921005

"The deal would see Qatar Airways operate a code-share arrangement with Iranian airlines to comply with laws excluding non-Iranian companies from domestic routes, the CEO of flag-carrier Iran Air, Farhad Parvaresh, said."

You raise an interesting point however regarding the financial implications of such an arrangement. Are you saying that the Iranians are aware of the financial risks and are willfully/recklessly putting themselves in a position of near collapse, or that their plans are half baked and they haven't fully considered the financial danger of this?
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:21 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
We don't sell them aircraft as they do things like this with them.

Do things like what? Fly the aircraft? Have some Air Force? Oh, i didn't knew it was forbidden for Iran to have an Air Force. Would you allow Iran to have military, police maybe, could you be so kind? (Although nobody in Iran is asking for you opinion on that subject, they're a sovereign country.)

Well, then i think the UN should ban all oil imports to the US cause they're using them to power their military machine...

Also, the US aviation programs (Boeing and other companies) should also fall under US ban because involved in war crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia and Vietnam (remember the Napalm bombs, kids are still dying of cancer from them), to just name a few... Oh, what about the nukes on Japan? I think US should be forbidden of having nuclear weapons cause unlike Iran, they've already proven to be a real threat to the world. They didn't hesitate to kill 150 000 people within few minutes.

Who has the right to decide which countries are permitted to have nuclear weapons and which ones don't?
So, if the US doesn't gives you "the right to have weapons to defend yourself" - then you have to end like Libya.
What if you don't want to?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:44 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 41):
Well, then i think the UN should ban all oil imports to the US cause they're using them to power their military machine...

I suggest that the Ukraine bring a resolution to the UN GA and have them vote on this.

In you rplace however I'd be very, very happy of the UN and US sanctions against Iran because it gives your country an opportunity o sell aircraft and supply crews and maintenance teams and instructors to Iran and get plenty of $$$ or €€€ in exchange. Or, as we say in the west "Always look at the bright sides of life".

 
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:47 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Iran is about a 5 minute missile flight from Iran

 

Let Qatar mind their own business with Iran or any other nation they choose.

I get sick and tired of this constant interventionism and policing of the US and the EU in other countries internal affairs. I don't think we would like it if China or Russia came and told us what to do and if we did not listen they would come with their bombs.

The embargo on the Iranian airlines should be stopped also. Such nonsense. Good thing the Iranians are clever enough to still keep their aircrafts in perfect flying condition in spite of their very small means. Kudos to them.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:18 am

Quoting qantas747flyer (Reply 40):
Are you saying that the Iranians are aware of the financial risks and are willfully/recklessly putting themselves in a position of near collapse, or that their plans are half baked and they haven't fully considered the financial danger of this?

Well, that would of course stipulate that Iran Air is making profits. Lest not forget, they fly on subsidized jet fuel, their jets are anything but efficient and a lot of the training takes place abroad (or it at least used to). Their recent route cuts point in a similar direction.

I've always looked at Iran Air as a political instrument, rather than a free market enterprise. Iran Air as such will probably persist for that very reason. I'd just expect that they will start to concentrate on their core business and that you will see more flights to Istanbul, Moscow, Beijing and who knows - maybe even Brazil and Venezuela (again). Flights with potent cargo loads that you couldn't do on partner airlines.

But what's for Iran Air to get out of domestic flying?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
qantas747flyer
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:32 am

Quoting something (Reply 44):
Flights with potent cargo loads that you couldn't do on partner airlines.

What type of "Potent cargo" loads are you referring to?
 
something
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:40 am

Quoting qantas747flyer (Reply 45):
Quoting something (Reply 44):
Flights with potent cargo loads that you couldn't do on partner airlines.

What type of "Potent cargo" loads are you referring to?

The ones that appear to have entailed the sanctions placed on them. I at this point have no further information and solely rely on what's surfaced on the news. Maybe a.net should dispatch Mr Assange to investigate the matter  
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting something (Reply 44):
But what's for Iran Air to get out of domestic flying?

Iran Aiur is not a commercially run company, they are not there to make a profit but to provide an infrastructure for the government and here we are at the sanctions again.....
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jacobin777
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:03 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

They are free form the government of their choice, and need to deal with the good or bad results.

I wonder if that is true for the current generation of the people in their 20's and 30's (or even 40's)...many who weren't born nor had anything to do with the choices of their elders.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Iran Studying Using Qatari AC For Internal Flights

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 35):
what makes you think it wont be manned by all Iranian origin QR crew?

Then the US sanctions would be triggered and the flights grounded by prohibiting US built parts from being shipped to QR.

But if they were standard QR crew...   

Quoting qantas747flyer (Reply 37):
It is naive to think that the US would allow Iran to so easily circumvent US engineered sanctions

That's the bit of what I wrote. If it were QR planes that resided every night in DOH... The sanctions technically are met. The issue is to keep Iran from using the aircraft for military purposes.


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain