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Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:42 am

The previous part was becoming a bit long, and Qantas is slowly resuming its operations. Please continue discussion in this thread.

Part 2 can be found here: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2 (by srbmod Oct 29 2011 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2011-10-31 04:43:55]
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EDICHC
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:52 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 210):
He is just a nasty little man who has his pet Jetstar.

A wannabe MOL?

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 212):
His nasty arrogance suits Jetstar but not Qantas.

Again....

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 221):

I have no connection to any of this, but it does seem somewhat hypocritical that it's ok for the unions to take job actions that discrupt people's travel plans, yet if management responds then it's somehow a crime against the nation

But there is a big difference between the duty of care of union and carrier. A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else. QF management are responsible to their shareholders AND their customers. Remember every ticket they sell is a contract, and while the Conditions of Carriage may include clauses to cover disruption of service due to industrial disputes and other factors beyond their control, this was a conscious decision by management to suspend service and was subject to their control.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:37 pm

Actually it could be the cynic in me but I'm surprised more separation wasn't put between Qantas and Jetstar and Jetstar coming to the aid of people who were stuck and making them out to be the nice guys.

That is the evil irish gnomes plan after all is to give more route to Jetstar and I was suprised to see not much in the way of Jetstar actually doing anything above and beyond just to give that image to help Joyce's case.

Also see on the news.com.au page that there is an A380 departing AKL, assume this is an old photo??
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:07 pm

@Mariner Reply 268

I was appalled by the ferocity of his campaign against the PM - but while I believe some of it was inaccurate, not everything that was printed was wrong.

You mean he spelled her name correctly!   

For a complete change of pace, here are two interviews from Lateline. Transcripts later:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352726.htm
Not their only option: Shorten

ALI MOORE: Alan Joyce says he had no other option under the Fair Work Act other than the option that he took. You've said repeatedly he did have other options. What were they?

BILL SHORTEN: Well let's be clear here: what the Government wants is for the flying public to be able to fly, for the economy to be able to function. That's our agenda. We're not interested in picking sides in this argument.

But when I have a look at what happened on Saturday and the grounding of the whole Qantas fleet, the stranding of tens of thousands of passengers, you've got to ask yourself: surely there was a better way to do business than this.

I sat through 12 hours of evidence by Qantas and the other parties, the unions, with the Government on - on behalf of the Government last night and throughout yesterday, and what the Qantas proposition was in essence was that, "We're a large company, but we can't convince some of our employees to agree to the changes we want, so therefore because we can't convince them, we'll damage the economy and we'll go to arbitration." I don't think that that was the only course of action.

ALI MOORE: But in fact they didn't go to arbitration; you went to arbitration. What they did was ground the airline and threaten to lock out their employees. So what did you see as their other courses of action, potential courses of action, if they felt, as they obviously did, that they were getting nowhere with negotiations?

BILL SHORTEN: Well, one, the first course of action is you run your company. When you're a sophisticated business - and Qantas is sophisticated - when you have many, many smart leaders in that corporation - and I know a lot of them personally and they are smart - I just can't believe that it's not possible to help lead your employees on a path of change.

Qantas workers are smart; they understand the issues of the international aviation industry. They understand the cost bases. A lot of these people absolutely love the fact they work for the Qantas airline.

I - the first step therefore in answer to your question is I find it hard to believe that a modern large company, publicly listed, doesn't have the capacity to work with intelligent people.
......
BILL SHORTEN: Not just that, but I don't - I think that Qantas - and I listened to 12 hours of evidence. I've done a thousand enterprise agreements. I've seen change occur in big companies and little companies in Australia.

The first point is: Qantas hasn't in my opinion done the homework to convince its workforce that the direction it's taking is in the best interests of the employees.

ALI MOORE: That's your opinion though and clearly it's not the opinion of management. So my question to you is: if you argue they had other options now on the table with the position they're currently in, what were they?

BILL SHORTEN: Well they could've looked at Section 240 of the Fair Work Act, which allows if parties consent to go to arbitration. They also had Section 424 of the Act themselves, where any party to a negotiation, if they feel that the action's causing damage, great damage, significant damage, that they can take this action and seek termination of the bargaining period.
...
ALI MOORE: Do you believe they would've been able to approve significant damage prior to grounding the airline? Would they have had that threshold met?

BILL SHORTEN: Let's be clear: I would rather try that than strand 100,000 passengers and cause damage to the economy. Don't - when you run an airline and a corporation, it's not just the shareholders who matter and it's not just even the employees; there's the customers.

Companies operate in Australia and we're very lucky to have a very successful private sector in Australia. But companies don't operate with a licence independent of the society they work in. I would've thought there's an obligation to try and work through these processes - as I said, one, for three years before it gets to this; two, using all means that you have available before you take industrial action as a last resort.

I was brought up in the old school where industrial action is the last resort. Qantas took industrial action and they affected all their clients and customers. I just think there's a smarter way to do things.

ALI MOORE: Well of course Qantas is not here to answer, but their argument is that industrial action and the threat thereof was hurting their business. But let me ask you: the Transport Workers Union for one is considering a possible legal action on this ban to all industrial action for the next 21 days. Is there any grounds for legal action, as you understand it, to this Fair Work arbitration decision?

BILL SHORTEN: Well, let me be clear: what we're interested in is the economy and the passengers and the aviation industry and tourism and mining. We believe that Qantas and the unions involved should get on with negotiating and not focus on what their legal or industrial remedies are and focus on finding a settlement.

I think - and I know that the individuals in this workforce, the humble, you know, baggage ramp attendants, the caterers, the flying crews, the licensed engineers, they're focusing on getting the planes in the air. I think that what people want from both the unions and management is leadership. Not conflict, but leadership.


What was that last word???? And much much more basically saying that large companies just do not behave that way.

And here is a contribution from one of those Communist red tie wearing pilots!! Dreadful radical fellow he is too:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352730.htm
Qantas has lost touch: Barry Jackson
...
Barry Jackson is president of the Australian and International Pilots Association and asserts pilot industrial action has not lost Qantas a single cent or disadvantaged one passenger.
Transcript
Not yet.

But the video is there, and he is pretty convincing.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:38 pm

like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else.

   Anyone who thinks that unions are not also responsible to customers is living in a past era. That is why the UNITE/BASRA flight attendants had such horrid PR early in the campaign. (Then they seemed to realize the PR battle was *the* battle.)

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
I think that what people want from both the unions and management is leadership. Not conflict, but leadership.

It is from both the unions and management to show leaderhship and not conflict. Either one party is able to bring a negotiation into conflict. The QF lockout was an epic fail on both the unions and the QF management.

Strikes should be a last resort. Ever since the Eastern airlines mechanics, the attitude on industrial action with airlines has changed. Now unions need to work the PR to be 'regretful' to enter a strike instead of driving the conflict to have a strike the 1st alternative. Simply a PR change... But one customers listen too.


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bmacleod
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:48 pm

QF union will be pretty mad that Aussie government intervened as Canadian government did with AC flight attendants and customer service staff in AC labour dispute.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights.
Quite simply the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime (something which anyone should have the right to choose not to do), as a result due to managements past decisions to downsize the engineering dept it meant that not all aircraft could be kept in service.
The pilots simply just made a PA each flight and wore red ties....hardly a factor in grounding planes wouldn't you say?
The only strike action that really had any impact on schedules were the ground handling strikes (IIRC they were 1 hour long...so a few delays but not grounding aircraft!).
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
What was that last word???? And much much more basically saying that large companies just do not behave that way.

I think that is simple elitism. The kind of elitism that attaches to Qantas and may yet be its downfall.

Nothing in that Cinemascope post persuades to any different opinion from the one I have held.

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 2):
Barry Jackson is president of the Australian and International Pilots Association and asserts pilot industrial action has not lost Qantas a single cent or disadvantaged one passenger.

In the case of the pilots that is probably true.

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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

It's a case of a small fish - union - swimming in a big pond and the big fish - management - letting the small fish know where they get off. Why would folks concern themselve with unions grounding flights when management just grounded an entire airline?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights.
Quite simply the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime (something which anyone should have the right to choose not to do), as a result due to managements past decisions to downsize the engineering dept it meant that not all aircraft could be kept in service.

The cynic in me would say that a flight with someone of importance was delayed and that's the straw that broke the camels back.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:14 pm

Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions. The management cared not that its decision to ground the entire airline immediately was going to severely inconvenience thousands of people - often in the most inconvenient places and especially for those travelling with elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed. At the same time, a whole nation, Australia's tourism industry and even attendees at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Perth were held hostage.

I would have been somewhat more prepared to understand QF's management's decision to ground an entire airline if it had warned that unless something is reached by a certain date, the entire airline will be shut down ... a week later. That way, customers have a choice whether to immediately seek alternative travel arrangmeents, defer travel, bring additional medication and other health needs ... or at least be mentally prepared to have their travel disrupted along the way.

The pilot union has been most responsible in minimising the impact of their response to management - wearing red ties, making non-standard announcements and basically seeking the customers' understanding of their predicament (and not forcing anything on them).

Now I wonder if all those insurance companies which had to cope with the tonnes of travel insurance claims are going to sue Alan Joyce and company for this reckless move.

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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Anyone who thinks that unions are not also responsible to customers is living in a past era.

Read my statement again and note my use of the word PRIMARILY. The union membership as employees are responsible to their customers, but the union as a body is not, it is there to represent workers rights.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:46 pm

The issue of "mandatory overtime" is one which occurs more often as companies (and government agencies) cut back on staff. Overtime is supposed to be voluntary. Many people will work overtime to make the extra cash (especially given the economy atm). However, making it more or less mandatory introduces leverage for the workers and results in the mess we see now.

Simply put, there needs to be a balance between fleet size and staffing. We see companies all over the place trying to "fly as close to the wind" as possible. However, if you don't have enough engineers/mechanics to maintain your fleet, you need to get more or you'll have to pay your current staff more to work the extra hours.

As quaint as this might sound, I don't understand why airline CEO's don't just sit down with reps for their employee groups and just talk about how things are going. If there are issues, raise them informally and discuss them. The posturing and bitterness evidenced by the QF debacle has poisoned the well between management and their employees for years to come.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 11):
As quaint as this might sound, I don't understand why airline CEO's don't just sit down with reps for their employee groups and just talk about how things are going. If there are issues, raise them informally and discuss them. The posturing and bitterness evidenced by the QF debacle has poisoned the well between management and their employees for years to come.

Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):
Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers.

Some do already with intranet prerecorded web casts. However, the industry is (for the most part) heavily unionized and having your employees from each group who is also the ranking delegate at such a meet respects the fact they chose union representation. It's also not practical to meet with large groups of employees.

Many airlines such as QF, BA, UA and others could do with a "sit down and clear the air" session or two outside of contract negotiations. Building up some good will and listening to whats going on at the customer level I think would have some good value.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:06 pm

yesterday VC put on a BNE/MEL/BNE from $349 one way. Anyone know if it went out full ?

Looked at TT website last night. They have MEL/BNE today from $59.95 so any backlog MEL/BNE at least must be cleared.
 
Markam
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
But there is a big difference between the duty of care of union and carrier. A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else. QF management are responsible to their shareholders AND their customers.

Wrong, in the same way that you say that a union is only answerable to its members, QF management is only answerable to the shareholders. This is, it is shareholders who decide to elect or to depose management, in the same way that it is union members who elect union leaders. Customer have nothing to say in either decision, and therefore nor the management neither the union are answerable to them. However, customer can and do vote with their feet, so Qantas as a whole better keep them happy if they want to stay in business. But that works for both management and workers, not only for management as you seem to suggest.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
Remember every ticket they sell is a contract, and while the Conditions of Carriage may include clauses to cover disruption of service due to industrial disputes and other factors beyond their control, this was a conscious decision by management to suspend service and was subject to their control.

Very true, but again, the travel contracts are between Qantas and the customer, not between management and the customer., in the same way that work contracts are between Qantas and the workers. It might seem a trivial different but it is not, as in general you as a customer could sue Qantas but not its management for the actions taken in their capability as the firm administrators. Only if management had done something personally to you (say, insult a customer or a worker) you could sue them, but them you would be suing them as individuals, it doesn't matter whether they are Qantas management or not (with the exceptions of the special provisions in the law to a boss-subordinate relationship, e.g. harassment, etc.). Only shareholders can sue management for its actions as administrator in the firm, because they are the only ones with whom management has a contract directly.

In any case, regarding the Conditions of Carriage, if read Qantas announcement you sure noticed that they offered compensation of up to AU$350 per day and/or the difference in fare if the passenger decided to travel with another carrier. While it would have of course been preferable to fly that is a fair compensation in almost anyone's eyes, and one that shows goodwill on Qantas', given the circumstances. Stuff happens, be it volcanoes or strikes, but it is nice that the airline does not dodge responsibility (Ryanair, anyone?). If I had been stranded I would have appreciated the compensation offered, and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions. The management cared not that its decision to ground the entire airline immediately was going to severely inconvenience thousands of people - often in the most inconvenient places and especially for those travelling with elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed. At the same time, a whole nation, Australia's tourism industry and even attendees at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Perth were held hostage.

Perhaps, but you could say exactly the same about any employee-led industrial action, or do strikes not left "elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed" stranded? Legitimate as the employees' aspirations and industrial action are, realize that so are those of the firm management and of their bosses, the shareholders. That's precisely why Fair Work Australia exists, to mediate and keep the conflict from harming the general public if things get too out of hand.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:28 am

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
In any case, regarding the Conditions of Carriage, if read Qantas announcement you sure noticed that they offered compensation of up to AU$350 per day and/or the difference in fare if the passenger decided to travel with another carrier. While it would have of course been preferable to fly that is a fair compensation in almost anyone's eyes, and one that shows goodwill on Qantas',

I did read that and I was not questioning the issue of compensation. Goodwill gesture? I think not. A more accurate description would be 'avoiding litigation action'.

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
Stuff happens, be it volcanoes or strikes,

And those actions are beyond the control of the company (well the former anyway, the latter is a matter of debate),a staff lock-out is not.

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

In the short term.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
I did read that and I was not questioning the issue of compensation. Goodwill gesture? I think not. A more accurate description would be 'avoiding litigation action'.

Sure, but in many instances airlines have tried to avoid properly compensating passengers, either by making it less clear how compensation could be obtained, or by trying to deny it altogether. I agree that in many cases this only leads to litigation against the company, but some passengers give up and decide not to litigate, so it sometimes saves money to be sneaky, and as a passenger I would have appreciated that Qantas have been upfront about it.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
And those actions are beyond the control of the company (well the former anyway, the latter is a matter of debate),a staff lock-out is not.

As you say, the strike case is a matter of debate (I personally see as something that the company as a whole has to be liable for with respect to the passengers, i.e. compensation must be provided, and most legislation that I know of shares this view but probably there are many exceptions), but for example, the EU legislated that compensation had to be provided by airlines regarding delays and cancellations associated to the Icelandic volcano eruption early last year, and Ryanair decided to challenge that ruling. I do not know what happened in the end, and Ryanair challenge is of course legitimate, and the matter of whether airlines should be held responsible in the event of "force majeure" or "act of god" incidences, but it shows that not all companies have been at all times so straight forward about offering compensation to passengers, even if the law required it.


Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
In the short term.

As Keynes said, "in the long run we are all dead".  

Seriously now, you raise a good point, but although the long term is of course very important, if you do not survive the short term you will not even reach the long term.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:51 am

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
shows goodwill on Qantas'

Wow. If only more airline CEOs can exert this sort of disruption "goodwill" on passengers they'd be queuing in their droves ! Oh wait, they did....

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
If I had been stranded I would have appreciated the compensation offered, and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

You're welcome to your viewpoint. However, may I vehemently disagree with you. I for one value my time and I make my travel plans for a reason. I would not have “appreciated”: the intense disruption, the inconvenience and stress imposed upon me and third parties, the sheer loss of productivity that would arisen, and the contempt that a company can show in exchange for my custom and faith in that company.

The behaviour is digusting.

Acknowledging that the unions have also caused direct and indirect disruption, I would point out that they are required, by law, to give 72 hours notice before the embark upon protected industrial action. Qantas has shown, as acknowledged widely by media, industry commentators and forum participants alike, that it managed to accommodate passengers and give them advanced notice of changes to their travel arrangements.

Instead Alan Joyce decided unilaterally to shut down flight operations at Qantas with total disregard for passengers.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Too right and its conduct has been shameful.

I will repeat again as I repeated in thread #2, its the passengers who have sufferred intensely as a result of this grounding and it is my view that the media, journalists, industry commentators, social media posts on Facebook / Twitter etc..., and forum participants have largely ignored their plight and instead choose to focus on the dogma of right vs. left, unions vs. anti-union, Qantas vs. union.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 18):
Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Too right and its conduct has been shameful.

Shameful, your being pretty generous if you ask me... To go ahead and disrupt your so called 'loyal' passengers in the manner Mr Joyce certainly isn't very Australian!

EK413
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 2):
That is the evil irish gnomes plan after all is to give more route to Jetstar and I was suprised to see not much in the way of Jetstar actually doing anything above and beyond just to give that image to help Joyce's case.

After reading these threads with interest and seeing all of this anti Irish racist garbage, I will be in no rush to ever fly Qantas again.

What the hell has the man's nationality go to do with anything.

I really did not expect this of Australians. I suspect many of you need reminding of your heritage.

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:59:06]
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 19):
Shameful, your being pretty generous if you ask me... To go ahead and disrupt your so called 'loyal' passengers in the manner Mr Joyce certainly isn't very Australian!

EK413

+1

Word on the streets that Qantas is readying a whole bunch of 'sorry is the hardest word' discount fares for their ex loyal and royally pissed off customers.

At least we get a fare war out of this debacle.

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:38:54]
BV
 
notaxonrotax
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:37 am

This comment does not reflect on my personal opinion, but I thought I´d share something I read today on this matter:

"A small village in Ireland is missing an idiot".

Classic……..


No Tax On Rotax

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:38:54]
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 22):
"A small village in Ireland is missing an idiot".

I doubt if they are missing him...
BV
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Strikes should be a last resort. Ever since the Eastern airlines mechanics, the attitude on industrial action with airlines has changed. Now unions need to work the PR to be 'regretful' to enter a strike instead of driving the conflict to have a strike the 1st alternative. Simply a PR change... But one customers listen too.

THIS WAS NOT A STRIKE!

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
The pilots simply just made a PA each flight and wore red ties....hardly a factor in grounding planes wouldn't you say?
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
The only strike action that really had any impact on schedules were the ground handling strikes (IIRC they were 1 hour long...so a few delays but not grounding aircraft!).
Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Absolutely true. EI did something similar earlier this year,they unilaterally introduced new rules for cabin crew and started suspending staff who didnt comply. They put out adverts blaming the crew even though the crew had been doing industrial action for 10 weeks beforehand with no disruption to pax according to EI statements.
1/3 of their cabin crew were off the payroll before the national labour apparatus got them to go back to the table. (>350 sectors hired in [over 15M Euro spent] to show their muscle)

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
I would have been somewhat more prepared to understand QF's management's decision to ground an entire airline if it had warned that unless something is reached by a certain date, the entire airline will be shut down ... a week later.

Very true. By giving a deadline QF could have let EVERYONE know they were committed to trying to solve this situation before hitting the nuclear option.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):
Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers

Oh to work in a perfect world.....or at SouthWest!!
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 24):

THIS WAS NOT A STRIKE!

Under Australian law this was industrial action ie, a strike. This was a strike
BV
 
Markam
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 18):
You're welcome to your viewpoint. However, may I vehemently disagree with you. I for one value my time and I make my travel plans for a reason. I would not have “appreciated”: the intense disruption, the inconvenience and stress imposed upon me and third parties, the sheer loss of productivity that would arisen, and the contempt that a company can show in exchange for my custom and faith in that company.

Comes without saying that you may disagree.  

Just to make it clear, I understand your view, and of course I would have preferred to fly, my point is just that given the very complicated labor relationships at Qantas, the fact that this might have been successful in putting any type of industrial action to a halt for the foreseeable future, and that Qantas offered compensation from minute one and was apologetic about it speaks well for the company... summing up, given the circumstances it could have been much worse, and other companies have certainly behaved much worse in similar or easier circumstances.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 18):
Acknowledging that the unions have also caused direct and indirect disruption, I would point out that they are required, by law, to give 72 hours notice before the embark upon protected industrial action. Qantas has shown, as acknowledged widely by media, industry commentators and forum participants alike, that it managed to accommodate passengers and give them advanced notice of changes to their travel arrangements.

This is a very good point, and giving public notice would have probably avoided most all of the trouble altogether. while still stopping industrial action. However, one could imagine that from a security point of view, perhaps short notice had its advantages. I guess that that was the reason that the grounding of the fleet was immediate even if the lockout proper was not to take place until Monday. Also, that is probably what Qantas management will claim if they are interrogated about the issue: that they gave 72 hours notice for the lockout but that they decided to ground all the fleet immediately for security reasons (IIRC there was wording pointing to that already in their original announcement of the grounding).

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 20):

What the hell has the man's nationality go to do with anything.

Absolutely nothing. That said, don't blame all Australians for the moronic comments of a few, you would be doing exactly the same thing that you are (rightfully) criticizing.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights.

Flights were cancelled and aircraft were grounded prior to the Qantas grounding. This is dated 19 October, nine days before the AGM, the day before the Qantas grounding:

http://www.imassera.com/over-400-flights-cancelled-by-airline/2414365/

"October 19, 2011- Qantas has had to cancel flights and ground five aircraft of its fleet and no resolution of the problem is in sight. Qantas has been forced to cancel between 19 and 21 of its daily flights for the remainder of October. Over 60,000 passengers have already been affected and that includes travelers in Melbourne, Perth, Brisbane and Sydney."

There are numerous others. The day before, for example, 18 October:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...70852428c6b7e2a6a617fcae38cf9e.351

" Australian flag-carrier Qantas grounded another two aircraft and cancelled 80 flights on Tuesday due to a bitter row with unions which has seen engineers down tools and repeated walkouts by ground staff."

Or 16 October:

http://australianaviation.com.au/201.../qantas-details-cancelled-fligths/

"Qantas has revealed it has cancelled 110 flights for this week (October 17-13), all trunk route domestic services. Many are Sydney-Melbourne and Sydney-Brisbane flights, with some flights to Adelaide and Perth also cancelled."

I have a whole bunch more.

mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting Markam (Reply 26):
Absolutely nothing. That said, don't blame all Australians for the moronic comments of a few, you would be doing exactly the same thing that you are (rightfully) criticizing.

I was careful to ensure I did not tar all with the one brush.....
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:46 am

I don't think any of the "Irish" comments are meant to be derogatory or racist in anyway to Ireland or the Irish, if he had been American, English, Indian, Chilean, whatever, it is just something done is the country, ie, to put the persons country of origin before their comment. If he had be Australian, he probably would have copped even more abuse.
The problem is with Joyce is that most people who have any sort of relationship with QF, except maybe shareholders, see him as steering a great luxury ship straight at an iceberg, while having his cheaper package cruise ship on standby to pick up the remnants.
Snap stoppages are disgraceful by workers, but when a major corporation does it, full well knowing the extent of disruption/damage the stoppage would cause, especially to the brand name, most of which may never be retrievable, it is just down right unforgiveable.
If Qantas shareholders had prior knowledge of this action and approved of it, they may well get what they deserve in the long run, if not, there should be demands for an extraordinary meeting for a please explain from the board. But then again, half of them are probably big corps anyway and approved. If my super fund was one of those shareholders and approved and I found out, my money would be on it's way elsewhere.
But it would seem that the court of public opinion is against QF management and not staff, including the ones who have disputes, let's see if these groups have the brains to keep it that way.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:58 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 29):
I don't think any of the "Irish" comments are meant to be derogatory or racist in anyway to Ireland or the Irish, if he had been American, English, Indian, Chilean, whatever, it is just something done is the country, ie, to put the persons country of origin before their comment. If he had be Australian, he probably would have copped even more abuse.
The problem is with Joyce is that most people who have any sort of relationship with QF, except maybe shareholders, see him as steering a great luxury ship straight at an iceberg, while having his cheaper package cruise ship on standby to pick up the remnants.
Snap stoppages are disgraceful by workers, but when a major corporation does it, full well knowing the extent of disruption/damage the stoppage would cause, especially to the brand name, most of which may never be retrievable, it is just down right unforgiveable.
If Qantas shareholders had prior knowledge of this action and approved of it, they may well get what they deserve in the long run, if not, there should be demands for an extraordinary meeting for a please explain from the board. But then again, half of them are probably big corps anyway and approved. If my super fund was one of those shareholders and approved and I found out, my money would be on it's way elsewhere.
But it would seem that the court of public opinion is against QF management and not staff, including the ones who have disputes, let's see if these groups have the brains to keep it that way.

I'd love to think you were correct in your view, but I've read far too many of these comments, not just on a.net, and quite honestly, I'm disgusted to the point where I doubt QF will ever be on my travel plans again, and that's not because of Alan Joyce, but rather QF staff's bile which whiffs of racist attitudes towards the Irish.

It may be common practice in Australia to refer to someone's country in every mention of them, but it should'nt be.

[Edited 2011-10-31 20:35:00]
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I think that is simple elitism. The kind of elitism that attaches to Qantas and may yet be its downfall.

We can certainly agree there. You can almost begin to see a trace from Qantas wins to what in all heck were Joyce and Clifford thinking and even worse doing?

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Now I wonder if all those insurance companies which had to cope with the tonnes of travel insurance claims are going to sue Alan Joyce and company for this reckless move.

Nice thought, but alas will not happen that way.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 20):
What the hell has the man's nationality go to do with anything.

Nothing. It is his poor public persona, the inference that he is lying much of the time and the underhand appearance of his actions that is causing folk angst, and he could as well be from Upper Slobovia as from Ireland. I apologise if I have slammed his Irishness and for others who certainly have, but I do think the man has difficulty with the truth. He also seems to have a spot of difficulty in understanding that it is a bad look to accept a 70% pay increase (however he cares to rephrase that) while objecting to a 3% rise for others and a few other things I will not detail. Just send us another good Irishman to replace him - please!!!

If I did the dumb things he had done, I would get slammed as a POM because of MY accent, but the reason would still be the dumb things.

That sign in the Airports about "grounding due to industrial action" will eventually hang around his neck like a dead albatross.

The earlier groundings that Mariner listed certainly occurred, but there is considerable doubt that they too were due to the industrial action. And WOE for Joyce, sticking up those signs when it is 100% certain it was him not industrial action will just make folk not suffering Alzheimers remember to doubt those too.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
If I did the dumb things he had done, I would get slammed as a POM because of MY accent, but the reason would still be the dumb things.

And that is completely unacceptable too. Perhaps we are spotting a trend here!

But, I understand why people are critical of him, i'm just amazed that his nationality is brought into it so much. It's pretty disgusting and really doesnt reflect well on the country.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 30):
I'd love to think you were correct in your view, but I've read far too many of these comments, not just on a.net, and quite honestly, I'm disgusted to the point where I doubt Australia or QF will ever be on my travel plans again, and that's not because of Alan Joyce, but rather QF staff's bile which whiffs of racist attitudes towards the Irish.

It may be common practice in Australia to refer to someone's country in every mention of them, but it should'nt be.

Well you are free to go or not go wherever you please. I am often disturbed by the racist attitudes of some Irish towards the English and have vowed never to visit Ireland as is my choice.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 22):

"A small village in Ireland Mossman is missing an idiot".


[Edited 2011-10-31 20:47:24]
BV
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 33):
Well you are free to go or not go wherever you please. I am often disturbed by the racist attitudes of some Irish towards the English and have vowed never to visit Ireland as is my choice.


They cut both ways, trust me.

Having been customer facing in a previous life, it seemed every second time to me a customer from the UK was unhappy, my nationality had to come in to it.

I guess you choose to ignore the historical context too, or indeed how much matters have improved.

Your choice....

[Edited 2011-10-31 20:46:23]
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
The only strike action that really had any impact on schedules were the ground handling strikes (IIRC they were 1 hour long

Did the delays hit curfew? If not, I change my opinion as that is simply a protest and not a full industrial action. But...

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
"October 19, 2011- Qantas has had to cancel flights and ground five aircraft of its fleet and no resolution of the problem is in sight. Qantas has been forced to cancel between 19 and 21 of its daily flights for the remainder of October. Over 60,000 passengers have already been affected and that includes travelers in Melbourne, Perth, Brisbane and Sydney."

Ouch. Too expensive. In particular Mariner's later example of 110 cancelled flights.

Zkpilot, my link had 600 missed flights pre-shutdown. That is not something an airline can tolerate. Why? The customers will not tolerate it.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
they were just not working overtime (something which anyone should have the right to choose not to do)

While I agree in principle, mandatory overtime, within reason is to be expected. e.g., for myself tomorrow I will have to work an extra long day. No choice. Thankfully, not that big of a deal. Benefits are too expensive to staff at yesterday's levels. We're probably going to have to work through the Thanksgiving holiday with zero pay.   (I'm lucky as with small kids they will ensure I make the diner. Not so for the single guys.) But we'll do it as it will help preserve jobs.

Overtime implies paid time...

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 10):
Read my statement again and note my use of the word PRIMARILY. The union membership as employees are responsible to their customers, but the union as a body is not,

We will have to disagree. Everyone is responsible for the customers. I support the right to strike, do industrial action, unionize, etc. But in today's environment, unions must do the PR game too.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 24):
THIS WAS NOT A STRIKE!

Fair enough. 600 grounded planes full of how many upset passengers due to industrial action is still huge. Still of the nature that a PR campaign must be done before, in parallel, and after said industrial action. Strike or not... planes were grounded. That costs a fortune. QF couldn't let that bad customer service continue. IMHO, QF had no choice with that many flights not carrying the paying passengers. They had to stop that and quickly.

My question still stands, will there be binding arbitration? What is the next step in Australia?

For the record, I think there should have been some notice of a shutdown. Then again, the disrupted flights should have had notice prior to the shutdown. But how to do notice of a shutdown/lockout safely? I wouldn't know how to.

Lightsaber
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
The earlier groundings that Mariner listed certainly occurred, but there is considerable doubt that they too were due to the industrial action.

Let's try 13 October, then - (i) staying clear of the Murdoch press and (ii) defining "strike" as an industrial action.

http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/staf...s-force-qantas-cut-flights-4463784

"Staff strikes force Qantas to cut flights

The announcement comes as the airline faces a barrage of industrial action by employees through the day."


11 October:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...rike-in-sydney-20111012-1ljrz.html

"Qantas engineers to strike in Sydney"

10 October:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...n-to-christmas-20111010-1lhmf.html

"Qantas strike chaos to drag on to Christmas"

As I said, I have a whole bunch more - and still more.

mariner - aka Joyce Plant.
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:48 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 33):
and have vowed never to visit Ireland as is my choice.

Haha.. yes, im sure you have. Just now.

And by the way, it cuts both ways, that Irish / English thing.
 
baroque
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:15 am

Some of the more important events today 1 November 2011.

1. Qantas wins read the headlines.

2. Dig a bit deeper and Qantas might be in worse trouble than ever read the subtext.

3. Joyce has pissed off Albanese to the point where Albo seems to be going to considerable lengths to prove he is right and Joyce is wrong. Likely he has records of meetings and recordings or at least notes of phone calls. If Joyce is telling porkies - already at least two backtracks - he is in for a roasting. Remember all those stranded journos in Perth that I mentioned, it only needs a few of them to decide to have their pound of flesh.

4. Now Abbott is managing to cast doubt on whether he received warning BEFORE Albanese or Gillard was informed, and possibly during the week of the annual meeting. This could be dynamite for Abbott first and then Joyce. And guess who Abbott will cut loose?

Now let us go to Ian Verrender:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/dogfi...o-crush-unions-20111031-1ms74.html
After a weekend of chaos and confusion, anger and admonishment, commuters and tourists breathed a collective sigh of relief as investors cheered from the sidelines, sending Qantas shares soaring by as much as 7 per cent.

But the events of the past few days merely confirmed what was becoming increasingly apparent during recent months - that this dispute is not about the pay and conditions of Qantas employees. It is the first battleground in a looming war between big business and the federal government over workplace relations in general and the Fair Work Act in particular.
Advertisement: Story continues below

The chief executive of Qantas, Alan Joyce, portrayed by many as the villain in the dispute, looked worn as he claimed victory in the decision by Fair Work Australia to terminate the dispute and justified his actions in grounding the airline. By lunchtime, however, Joyce was looking more like the fall guy - a handsomely paid fall guy to be fair - as it emerged that he had been keen to seek a resolution to the dispute as late as Friday.

The Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, refuted claims that Joyce had tried to call him on Saturday, instead detailing three unanswered calls he had placed with the Qantas boss before making contact.

Even more illuminating were the details of three private meetings in the previous eight days - some in Albanese's inner west electoral office - between the minister, Joyce and the national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon.

According to the minister, there had been significant progress and a breakthrough seemed imminent. Sheldon had called off planned mid-week industrial action and Joyce was keen to resolve the matter, as any rational CEO would.

But on Saturday morning the Qantas board opted to escalate the dispute by shutting down the airline and throwing the plans of up to 70,000 travellers - including heads of state attending the Perth Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting - into disarray.


If that is just about half true then WOW!!!!

So far Clifford is in front. But at what cost? Long-suffering Qantas shareholders have not received a dividend for years as the company has weathered the global economic slowdown, rising fuel prices and a spate of natural disasters in its key markets. The last thing it needs now is a blow to its reputation of this magnitude, following its recent spate of in-flight ''incidents'' and a perception of declining standards.

The Qantas chairman and CEO are gambling that when this dispute reaches arbitration in a month's time, as it surely will, they will emerge victorious, particularly in regard to plans to introduce more contract workers on lower pay scales than the unionised workforce.

Three years ago, during the last round of wage negotiations, then-CEO Geoff Dixon quickly settled when engineers began rolling stoppages to avoid the kind of damage to its reputation the Qantas board has now inflicted upon itself.
......
And there is not enough salt in Lake Eyre to accompany the claims that its international operation loses $200 million a year. It is easy to make the accounts tell that story. It all depends on how you apportion the costs. Qantas is an integrated company with a full service division, a low-cost operator and a frequent flyer program, not a collection of unrelated businesses.

Consider this: Qantas, the premium brand, no longer flies the profitable holiday routes to Bali and other parts of Asia which have now been handed to Jetstar. It has shut down many of its European destinations. Meanwhile, Virgin Blue, which launched international services four years ago, is making a profit on its offshore services.


One of the comments to the Verrender article - IF TRUE - would be dynamite.
19 comments so far

My husband is a Qantas Baggage Handler and he received 2 letters delivered personally by courier on Sunday Morning at 11am. These notified him lockout, industrial action etc. These were delivered to every baggage handler involved at a cost of $19.00 per person. It so happened that the courier was a mate of my husbands who confirmed that the letters had been "at the dock SINCE THURSDAY" - I'd like to know what was not premeditated.

Miss E | Maroubra - November 01, 2011, 10:43AM


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/dogfi...-20111031-1ms74.html#ixzz1cQElP5Fy


That should be verifiable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):

http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/staf...s-force-qantas-cut-flights-4463784

"Staff strikes force Qantas to cut flights

The announcement comes as the airline faces a barrage of industrial action by employees through the day."

I hear what you say and from a distance it seems reasonable. However, get to the detail and while there could have been delays from those actions, actually grounding even a flight may have been an over-reaction and a deliberate over-reaction, followed by attributing the blame to the Unions. Look at those signs for the MANAGEMENT grounding of the fleet and then look at what Verrender says of the claim about the International losses:
And there is not enough salt in Lake Eyre to accompany the claims that its international operation loses $200 million a year. It is easy to make the accounts tell that story. It all depends on how you apportion the costs. Qantas is an integrated company with a full service division, a low-cost operator and a frequent flyer program, not a collection of unrelated businesses.

I do not think QF has been in truth mode for quite a while.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
My question still stands, will there be binding arbitration? What is the next step in Australia?

Again, yes there will. And this is where Qantas has a rather odd bet. They are betting that the arbitrators will split the difference on wages and other internal conditions and let the proposals to offshore work go as beyond their capacity to arbitrate. And they MAY already know the answer to that. But what if they do not and the arbitrators surprise them. They could have done all this for nothing. As they saw in the law, never ask a question unless you already know the answer. They certainly think they know the answer. But what if it turns out they did tell Abbott, or Albo's string of records about the meetings shows that QF has been economical with the truth. The FWA already has ruled that it was the QF action and not the Union's actions that prompted their decision. The ground might not be as firm as management assumes.

And PLEASE Lightsaber, take all the QF PR about grounded flights with the same amount of salt that Verrender suggests you use in assessing the losses at QF International! This is essentially a domestic dispute and you know what happens in domestics!!!! Truth went out of the window a long time ago to expediency - on both sides.

But now the financial scribblers are at it, some forensic skills will be applied and woe betide QF if it gets caught out in a lie.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 39):
I hear what you say and from a distance it seems reasonable. However, get to the detail and while there could have been delays from those actions, actually grounding even a flight may have been an over-reaction and a deliberate over-reaction, followed by attributing the blame to the Unions. Look at those signs for the MANAGEMENT grounding of the fleet and then look at what Verrender says of the claim about the International losses:

Obviously, you don't hear what I say.

As you have previously (somewhat sneeringly, I thought) noted, I follow another - smaller - airline from an even greater distance, and if 10% of that stuff had happened to it, then that airline would be out of business.

I am truly disturbed at the need here - and by you - to whitewash what happened prior to the critical Joyce action.

As to the Verrender claims about international losses, Virgin Australia (Blue) has only very recently become profitable with its international routes (reported August 2011) - and by ditching unprofitable routes, such as JNB and intra-NZ. It also has a much lower cost base than Qantas, partly because it does not have such a matured staff.

But essentially, I don't see that it matters. It is one coat - just different pockets. The fuss is about something quite other.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-31 21:37:12]
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
4. Now Abbott is managing to cast doubt on whether he received warning BEFORE Albanese or Gillard was informed, and possibly during the week of the annual meeting. This could be dynamite for Abbott...

Godwin Grech *cough*

If Abbott knew before the government did this would obviously raise some serious questions. Something to look out for if and when Abbott gets to the mic to deny this are his actual words as to who said what and when as there was a strong imputation in Parliament today that some ex-liberal staffers have gone to work for Qantas and hence there may have been some unofficial information passing of the planning of the lockout, he maybe able to deny Joyce told him but did he have ANY information about a pending lockout?

Logically since there was an interest rate cut today Abbott should pop up on mike to denounce Gillard for "mishandeling the economy" but there is no sign of him yet on the news channels, if we don't see him it will be the case of he dog that didn't bark and we will know that something is up.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
It so happened that the courier was a mate of my husbands who confirmed that the letters had been "at the dock SINCE THURSDAY" - I'd like to know what was not premeditated.

The couriers being booked on Thursday is also the information coming from the pilots union yesterday.
BV
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:58 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 43):
The couriers being booked on Thursday is also the information coming from the pilots union yesterday.

And you do have to feel sorry for the pilots. They are not even asking for more pay, just an assurance basically that Joyce is not trying to circumvent the Qantas act as I read it.

The interview on Lateline last night with Barry Jackson was rather sad. He looked a bit as if his T900 IPT had just gone feral. But as that cannot happen now, so it must have been the events of the past 48 hours.

Much more to come out and as I said probably hundreds of journos now wanting to have their pound of flesh (no disrespect to Perth) for being stuck in Perth when they had something else in mind.

I think it is going to be untruths that are going to be the final arbitrators in this spat. If the reports of early advice are true - and there must be records of couriers - that is going to take a lot of explaining to a Leigh Sales or and Ali Moore. She has such a sweet look on her face as the knife goes in too!!

Not you BV, but can we keep the Irish distraction out of it - puhleese. Joyce is going to stand or fall on his veracity or lack of it. A lying bastard is a lying bastard and it matters not wherever he or she comes from. We do not know yet, but there seem to be suspicions. Reasonable suspicions or not, those journos will surely tell us. They have some skin in this game.

And re Abbott, will his statement be the truth as explained to Kerry O'Brien or will it be an off the cuff remark not to be taken too seriously? I mean how DOES he get away with it?
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:07 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
While I agree in principle, mandatory overtime, within reason is to be expected.

I disagree. Attempting this has caused issues in Australia, here with QF and also in Sydney with the train drivers, when the workers get sick of it. I don't think it should be legal, and unless I am very much mistaken, it now is illegal. You can't be forced to work more than 38 hours/week since Howard's workchoices.

Do we really want to have people working 50 hour weeks or more because it suits certain employers? Not in this country; maybe South Korea is different.
 
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:13 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 46):

Much more to come out and as I said probably hundreds of journos now wanting to have their pound of flesh (no disrespect to Perth) for being stuck in Perth when they had something else in mind.

Should hope not, I relocated from Sydney 6 months ago, its nice out here but oddly remote from the eastern states. Good for keeping up with late night events though 2AM FWA decision? 11pm much more civil  
Quoting Baroque (Reply 46):
The interview on Lateline last night with Barry Jackson was rather sad. He looked a bit as if his T900 IPT had just gone feral. But as that cannot happen now, so it must have been the events of the past 48 hours.

Yep, not really their fight but as an aside the announcements were also being made on Qantas domestic, I flew MEL-PER on 22/10 and heard one on arrival, there was a general mummer of approval from passengers.

As noted in the thread but barely reported by the media the licenced engineers had actually called off action planned mid week after a face to face with Joyce and Albanese late last week, this removed any maintenance safety issues and may have indicated that a resolution to this dispute was close, but then the Qantas board voted for a lock out on Saturday, why?

[Edited 2011-10-31 22:19:17]
BV
 
fiscal
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:47 pm

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:16 am

I think I will start by saying that the proof is shown in the pudding. The strikes have been terminated by the umpire, and the majority of Australians (from on-line news polls issued yesterday) support Qantas management. So the actions of Saturday will have been shown to have been an astute industrial move to bring the hemorrhage to a stop.

I have noticed though, that since Saturday, the government has done everything they can to try and make themselves look like innocent bystanders, but I think the least they could be charged with, is a lack of vision and a lack of courage to intervene. Allegiances run deep in the ALP and there would not a minister who would not have had a second thought about their own futures, had they taken a more proactive approach in the couple of weeks before the grounding.

That being said, the Qantas brand has been hurt, but I do not believe critically so. Once the rhetoric of the blame game has died down, ordinary Australians will forget the inconvenience of the moment, and once again come back to Qantas. It is human nature - Qantas stands for Australia.

Qantas has a great plan for the future, and I am sure that given the chance, it will result in a more profitable, and more serviceable airline, with greater potential and possibilities to grow the branches of the Qantas tree into Asia and beyond.

The demands of the three unions involved basically stem from left wing fundamental ideologies, that for the best part, are no longer relevant in a global economy today. They could have been part of a solution to build Qantas back up, but loyalties and out dated practices have meant that they decided on a counter approach, one of destruction.

All of the talk of wages (on both sides) have been nothing but rhetoric, as the real issue is the continuing attitude of workers v management. Qantas is a private company and should have the ability to conduct business without intimidation and harassment. The law protects workers from unfair practices, so unless they own shares and vote at the AGM, the door always beckons to the unsatisfied.

Let us all hope that commonsense prevails and both parties realize that the way must be forward and the past is just that.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:27 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 51):
I have noticed though, that since Saturday, the government has done everything they can to try and make themselves look like innocent bystanders, but I think the least they could be charged with, is a lack of vision and a lack of courage to intervene.

I'm amazed at how many supposed free marketeers now believe that it is the Governments place to intervene in private enterprises industrial relations and force them to arbitration. Its doublethink, ask them if they believe that Governments should set minimum pay or conditions and they will say NO! This should be left to the free market, the two positions are contradictory.
BV
 
joelyboy911
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:45 am

RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:44 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 52):
I'm amazed at how many supposed free marketeers now believe that it is the Governments place to intervene in private enterprises industrial relations and force them to arbitration. Its doublethink, ask them if they believe that Governments should set minimum pay or conditions and they will say NO! This should be left to the free market, the two positions are contradictory.

I would have to disagree. They need government intervention because they aren't allowed to go to the open market for jobs. If the free market forces had their way, this whole thing would never have happened because Qantas would have already gotten the cheapest workers. Wherever they might have come from. Striking workers would have been sacked and replaced with overseas or junior recruits, and the Unions would not be allowed at Qantas workplaces.

The government has to provide some assistance and set out rights and responsibilities to both sides in this case. Something's gotta give.
Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:53 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
Yep, not really their fight but as an aside the announcements were also being made on Qantas domestic, I flew MEL-PER on 22/10 and heard one on arrival, there was a general mummer of approval from passengers.

Interesting. QF001 and QF32 had it a month or so ago. Seemed little reaction, bet there would be now, but what???

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
but then the Qantas board voted for a lock out on Saturday, why?

Excellent question. Expect an answer any day now, or will it be three different answers!

Quoting fiscal (Reply 51):
The strikes have been terminated by the umpire, and the majority of Australians (from on-line news polls issued yesterday) support Qantas management.

Which polls? What was the question. The ones I saw were about the Government intervening, but saying they should does not imply support for Qm??? Links please.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 51):
That being said, the Qantas brand has been hurt, but I do not believe critically so.

Wanna bet?

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 52):
I'm amazed at how many supposed free marketeers now believe that it is the Governments place to intervene in private enterprises industrial relations and force them to arbitration. Its doublethink, ask them if they believe that Governments should set minimum pay or conditions and they will say NO! This should be left to the free market, the two positions are contradictory.

Quite so. Your comment got me back down off the ceiling - it was uncomfortable there!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-0...-knowledge/3613094/?site=newcastle
So as they say, now we KNOW it is true.
Transport Minister Anthony Albanese called a press conference to question why Mr Abbott suddenly changed his rhetoric on Friday to demand the Government intervene in the dispute.

Mr Albanese questioned whether Mr Abbott had been told about the lockout and grounding well before Qantas boss Alan Joyce told the Government at 2pm on Saturday.

Mr Joyce insisted the Qantas board only made the lockout decision on Saturday morning.

"Why did Tony Abbott change his position on Friday morning one day before Qantas says they made the decision to lock out the workforce and to shut down the airline at 5pm on Saturday?" Mr Albanese asked journalists.

And he made the extraordinary suggestion that the Opposition may have colluded with Qantas to "orchestrate" the lockout and grounding.

"Was Mr Abbott, his office or any colleagues in his party involved in an orchestrated campaign in the lead-up to this announcement with Qantas' decision they say was made on Saturday to lock out its workforce and to ground its fleet?" he asked.

"What contact did Mr Abbott or his frontbench have with Mr Joyce or [Qantas chairman] Mr Clifford prior to Qantas' announcement on Saturday?"

In Question Time, Prime Minister Julia Gillard stepped up the pressure on Mr Abbott, demanding he "tell the truth" and saying he was "in cover-up mode".

This morning, Mr Abbott was asked two questions by journalists about what he knew and when.

The first was if anyone from Qantas spoke to him or someone from his office prior to Saturday about a possible grounding, but he avoided the question.

The second question repeated the first: "Was your office forewarned of the dispute - can you answer that?"

"My office was in regular contact with Qantas. Qantas, as anyone in Parliament House would know, have basically been patrolling the corridors of Parliament House for weeks now alerting people to the seriousness of the dispute," Mr Abbott replied before terminating the press conference.
'Cover-up mode'

Ms Gillard, in Question Time, applied more pressure to Mr Abbott.

"The Leader of the Opposition twice refuses to answer a question about when he knew when Qantas was going to lock its workers out and ground the planes," she told Parliament.

"When did the Leader of the Opposition know that tens of thousands of passengers were going to be stranded?

"He's in cover-up mode. He doesn't want to be asked when he knew, what he knew about Qantas. Did he know an hour before the planes were grounded? Did he know 24 hours before the planes were grounded?

"Did he know 48 hours before the planes were grounded? Did he ring up Qantas and suggest the planes should be grounded? Go out and tell the truth."

After Question Time Mr Abbott rose to make a personal explanation to Parliament, saying his office was first informed about the lockout at 4:15pm on Saturday and "I heard about it just before 5 o'clock".

"If I had prior notice to what Qantas was intending I would hardly have booked myself and my family on Qantas the following day," Mr Abbott told Parliament.

"So I suggest to the Prime Minister and the Minister for Transport they should stop fantasising about me and start apologising for the massive damage they've inflicted on the Australian public."


Getting a bit personal. Interesting to see how this plays out. The video of some of those exchanges could be telling.
 
User avatar
mariner
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:17 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 45):
I'm amazed at how many supposed free marketeers now believe that it is the Governments place to intervene in private enterprises industrial relations and force them to arbitration.

I'm a free marketeer and I surely don't think that. Nor do I think that the government - or any second guessers - should be telling Qantas how to run the airline.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-01 00:21:21]
aeternum nauta
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5375
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RE: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:22 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
But there is a big difference between the duty of care of union and carrier. A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else. QF management are responsible to their shareholders AND their customers. Remember every ticket they sell is a contract,
Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

I guess I have nothing to add to what I've said. I mean, if union employees can do an industrial action that affects tens of thousands of passengers - and feel completely fine with it - then I am at a loss to how they can point at management and say "Look what they are doing. Don't they care about the customer?" Isn't taking industrial actions that affect all of those passengers using the customers as "human shields"?

It's something that I find no other more fitting word for than hypocritical.

-Dave
-Dave