Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:50 pm

So...title pretty much says it all. Along with a bit of a rant.

Why has ABQ had a steady decrease in service over the past few years? I remember US serving ABQ with a nonstop/nonstops to PIT, as well as America West having nonstop LAS service, as well as A320-sized aircraft to PHX. Also, I clearly remember ABQ having nonstop service to AMA, and possibly one other Texas destination, as well as CO having a nonstop to EWR.

Not only that, the destinations that have stayed...have had frequency cut, for example, I remember last summer, or maybe the summer before...US served ABQ-PHX with a mix of A319s and 733s. Now, all we get is 5x on US Express, and some are only CR2s, at that.

I started this rant/discussion, because ABQ is going to soon lose nonstop service to PDX, at least seasonally, and my main question is, why? Why can ABQ not support the flights that it used to? Aside from the most obvious excuse (the economy), is there any specific reason for certain routes/airlines, or is it just unprofitable in general?
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
I remember US serving ABQ with a nonstop/nonstops to PIT,

Not a hub anymore

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
America West having nonstop LAS service,

Not a hub/airline anymore ( WN flies this im pretty sure)

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
Why can ABQ not support the flights that it used to?

No. I think everything you wrote pretty well answers that question.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
Aside from the most obvious excuse (the economy), is there any specific reason for certain routes/airlines, or is it just unprofitable in general?

You wouldn't have as much service as you do if it were all unprofitable. Airlines have changed and evolved over the years, and all sorts of routes that used to fit into various route structures don't anymore. I see ABQ as a city with great air service.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
US served ABQ-PHX with a mix of A319s and 733s. Now, all we get is 5x on US Express, and some are only CR2s, at that.

I can't tell you how many cities have had the same thing happen. Just one of those shifts in the industry.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:43 am

At least ABQ should be grateful that DL still sends 757s on ABQ-ATL in the spring and summer. Very few cities of ABQ's size gets 757s nowadays.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 1):

The PIT comment was meant more for the fact that ABQ had service to the East Coast more than it does now. ABQ-EWR and ABQ-PIT. We've got 1x to BWI, and 1x to IAD. When did that other ABQ-BWI nonstop end? I could have sworn we had 2x to BWI..
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5707
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:10 am

Yes, but the ABQ-PIT was only because PIT was a major hub.

If you think ABQ service, destinations and frequency has gone done - you should see what levels of service PIT and CVG have today since their are no longer hubs.

My friends at Louisville used to drive to CVG rather than SDF because of cheaper, more frequent and more destinations. Not any longer.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20467
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:13 am

ABQ is not alone. Lots of small/medium sized communities around have experienced shifts in air-service patterns

Here are some factors:
o Death of point to point flying = Virtually everything is to a hub
o Airline consolidation = Less hubs
o Less industry capacity = less capacity assigned to secondary markets
o Economic mailaze = reduced travel demand.


But seems to me at the end of the day the ABQ metro area with a population of not even 1million (908,000 per Census) is doing OK.
You have service by all the majors, a pair of LCCs along plus local commuter services providing access to all the nearby hubs amongst 25 or so nonstop destinations.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:13 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
If you think ABQ service, destinations and frequency has gone done - you should see what levels of service PIT and CVG have today since their are no longer hubs.

DL still considers CVG a hub, although service is a far cry from when CVG was DL's #2 hub behind ATL.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:12 am

Ah yes.... But the main sit down restaurant has just reopened. Watch those passenger numbers climb!  
 
crownvic
Posts: 1806
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:00 am

As has been mentioned already, I would not feel singled out at ABQ. I would say that far more airports in the U.S. have lost a good chunk of their capacity, since 9/11. This damn incident has had lasting effects throughout the aviation community. The costs to operate a flight today, vs a pre-9/11 flight are higher. Airlines have traditionally operated at low margins. It has always been part of the business. Unfortunately, 9/11 has pushed many marginally profitable routes and cities into the red, causing their eventual demise. The America West red-eye bank out of LAS to nearly every major/medium U.S. city is a perfect example of a 9/11 casualty.
 
FutureUScapt
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:39 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:30 am

Well, I'll go ahead and take the unpopular stance in this thread and say that I think ABQ is actually over-served, primarily by WN to the west coast. Because the Wright Amendment prevents nonstops from DAL to the west coast, WN funnels much of the westbound traffic from DAL over ABQ and ELP. Once Wright is fully lifted, I expect that you will see a reduction in the number of nonstops WN has from ABQ to places like DAL, LAS, LAX, OAK, PHX, SAN and SEA. In the case of TUS, and maybe even SLC, nonstop service might be suspended in its entirety.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 8):
Unfortunately, 9/11 has pushed many marginally profitable routes and cities into the red, causing their eventual demise. The America West red-eye bank out of LAS to nearly every major/medium U.S. city is a perfect example of a 9/11 casualty.

While you're right that 9/11 was the impetus for the first large round of cuts in this decade, its not really accurate to say that 9/11 is what shuttered the HP/US LAS night operation. Since nearly all of the flying was utilization flying, fuel was the primary expense so as fuel rose, the profitability declined.
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 7):

It did? I'm so glad. xD Love that place to spot, since it's in the middle of both concourses. It, and the second floor area, were closed for a few months for refurbishment..so it'll be nice to have that again.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

Well, now that you say it like that...I guess ABQ isn't hit as hard as I thought it was, compared to other airports. That being said...a bit more service wouldn't hurt..
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 9):


Over the summer, on one day, I counted 16x daily nonstops to Arizona. 5 on US, 9 on WN to PHX, and 2x to TUS.
I don't think they'd drop TUS, because I'm sure the southeast-TUS flights are routed through ABQ, and there are only two flights daily nonstop. And it's not unpopular..just a different viewpoint.  
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
User avatar
RedTailDTW
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:01 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 11):
I don't think they'd drop TUS, because I'm sure the southeast-TUS flights are routed through ABQ, and there are only two flights daily nonstop. And it's not unpopular..just a different viewpoint.

The ABQ route from TUS does serve (or at least used to serve) a purpose other than a connect between the two cities. I know there were many times before the MDW route came in, I routed family from TUS-ABQ-MDW-DTW all on the same flight number and aircraft (no plane change). Besides MDW (which wasn't added until 2006), ABQ is the only way for WN travelers to get from TUS to WN's midwest and eastern cities without having to backtrack.


- Mason
Airlines Flown: AA, CO, HP, MQ, NW, RP, UA, US, WN, YX / Aircraft Flown: 737-200/300/700/800, 757-200/300, 777-200, A319/A320/A321, DC-9-30/50, DC-10-40, ERJ 140/145, E170, MD80/83/90
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4633
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 12):
ABQ is the only way for WN travelers to get from TUS to WN's midwest and eastern cities without having to backtrack.

WN could very well change some routings around when Wright expires - and I fully expect they will. OKC, MCI or STL would be perfectly suitable and may well fill flights better than ABQ-TUS does. No way to know as of yet.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:04 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
WN could very well change some routings around when Wright expires - and I fully expect they will.

I think so too, but I doubt ABQ (or MCI or STL or MSY or BHM) will lose more than 2 or 3 flights. For better or worse, there's always a certain amount of inertia in route planning, and the constraints at DAL will mean that WN can't serve all the nonstop destinations it wants to serve at appropriate frequency, so the connecting points will still play a role, albeit a reduced one.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
zrs70
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:00 pm

I remember when TWA flew L1011's into ABQ, followed by 767's.
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 10):
Love that place to spot, since it's in the middle of both concourses.

I think you may be thinking of the area that used to be called the Rt66 bar. That's been remodeled into a food court area and has been open for a few months now. I was referring to the old Gardunios just before security. That reopened under a new name this week after having been closed for a couple of years. Last time I was through ABQ, the airside upstairs viewing area was still closed as a part of the remodel underneath. Not sure what the schedule is for that.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
Why has ABQ had a steady decrease in service over the past few years?

If you go over to the RITA/BTS web site you can get some data on ABQ...

ABQ&Airport_Name=Albuquerque,%20NM:%20Albuquerque%20International%20Sunport&carrier=FACTS" target="_blank">http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airport...ernational%20Sunport&carrier=FACTS
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2247
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
WN could very well change some routings around when Wright expires - and I fully expect they will. OKC, MCI or STL would be perfectly suitable and may well fill flights better than ABQ-TUS does. No way to know as of yet.

They could have done any of those already. Wright doesn't prevent them from funneling east-west passengers through OKC, MCI, or STL. The biggest development that has hurt ABQ as a connecting location for WN is their buildup of DEN. That operation allows for routings from the midwest and east that previously would have gone over ABQ, LAS and PHX. The expiration of Wright may result in a few lost frequencies to DAL and perhaps a couple westbound as connecting traffic decreases.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 11):
Over the summer, on one day, I counted 16x daily nonstops to Arizona. 5 on US, 9 on WN to PHX, and 2x to TUS.

I remember when WN was up into the double digits on the ABQ-PHX route in the late 90s. I think it was up to 13 daily on some weekdays.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 1):
Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
I remember US serving ABQ with a nonstop/nonstops to PIT,

Not a hub anymore

The route was ended well before the hub was closed. US couldn't make it work.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
I remember US serving ABQ with a nonstop/nonstops to PIT, as well as America West having nonstop LAS service, as well as A320-sized aircraft to PHX. Also, I clearly remember ABQ having nonstop service to AMA, and possibly one other Texas destination, as well as CO having a nonstop to EWR.

PIT just didn't make money so US pulled out. The LAS flights by America West were victims of the hub closure. The downgauge on ABQ-PHX is a little surprising to me as well, but we don't get to see the numbers their route planners and revenue management team have. AMA-ABQ was about connecting passengers and with the DEN buildup WN shifted the route over there. ABQ-EWR was poorly timed for connections in EWR and seemed to be more about utilizing an aircraft during down time. Flying a 737-500 on that long a route became unsustainable with high fuel prices, as did the once a week ABQ-CLE on an ERJ.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5503
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 12):
Besides MDW (which wasn't added until 2006), ABQ is the only way for WN travelers to get from TUS to WN's midwest and eastern cities without having to backtrack.

DEN is also an option for reaching TUS on WN now.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 3):
The PIT comment was meant more for the fact that ABQ had service to the East Coast more than it does now. ABQ-EWR and ABQ-PIT. We've got 1x to BWI, and 1x to IAD.

Before the merger with America West, US Airways had no hubs away from the East Coast -- so the only way for them to serve ABQ would have been from PIT, CLT or PHL. And the number of non-stops to the East Coast really hasn't changed all that much; the WN non-stop to BWI essentially supplanted the US non-stop to PIT.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
Why has ABQ had a steady decrease in service over the past few years?

Many medium-sized markets have seen reductions in service. Some of it is due to the airlines being more aggressive in matching capacity to demand; the days of 70% system load factors are long gone. Look at GSO, which serves a metro area of 1.6 million and has less than a half-dozen daily mainline departures across all airlines.
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:02 pm

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 16):

Last time I flew out of ABQ, the food court was closed for the remodel you mentioned. I was referring to the upstairs airside viewing area, which I think is a nice place to spot, but it was closed too...that was in July.
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2247
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:49 pm

I feel that ABQ has lost out on some of the longer routes because it can't fill 150 seats consistently on them, and fuel prices make flying a 100 seat aircraft uneconomical, if they're even in the fleet. The seasonal cut to PDX is just the latest example. The holes in the route map for ABQ are all routes that probably need a 100 seat aircraft, but the distance makes it uneconomical. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, South Florida, Mexico City are all in this boat. Maybe an aircraft like the C-Series can turn this around, but until the economics change in the current 100 seat fleet or ABQ goes through a big population boom, anything over 2.5 hours is going to look very marginal.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
User avatar
RedTailDTW
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 19):
DEN is also an option for reaching TUS on WN now.

Ugh, I always forget about DEN, thanks for the correction!


Even though TUS-ABQ has been around a long time, I would like to see something more like HOU, STL, or even directly to DAL once Wright is lifted.


- Mason
Airlines Flown: AA, CO, HP, MQ, NW, RP, UA, US, WN, YX / Aircraft Flown: 737-200/300/700/800, 757-200/300, 777-200, A319/A320/A321, DC-9-30/50, DC-10-40, ERJ 140/145, E170, MD80/83/90
 
chrisair
Posts: 1799
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:12 pm

Glad to hear the observation deck is open. If the couches are still there, it is a great place to catch a nap.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
I started this rant/discussion, because ABQ is going to soon lose nonstop service to PDX, at least seasonally, and my main question is, why?

The PDX flight has come and gone Jan/Feb for the last few years now. I like the PDX-ABQ-TUS flight if it's timed right. In fact, I always try and route through ABQ if it's available. A much nicer airport experience than the disgusting hell-hole at LAS or LAX.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 3):
I could have sworn we had 2x to BWI..

They did. As recently as this spring. Are you sure the second BWI flight isn't coming back?

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 9):
In the case of TUS, and maybe even SLC, nonstop service might be suspended in its entirety.

Not sure about SLC, but TUS-ABQ is probably going to stick around. Those flights are the most direct way to get to most of Texas (not just DAL), Orlando, BWI, as well as MCI/STL if the timing is right.
 
n9801f
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:17 pm

In many ways, ABQ has enjoyed especially good service for a city its size.

For instance, it has typically had more flights and destinations than ELP or TUS, which are in some ways similar cities.

So the reductions start from an especially good base.

Part of the reductions you see (PDX reduction) is a seasonal effect. ABQ east-west traffic weakens substantially in the first quarter.

A second part is the recession and an overall decrease in airline activity in the USA (to nearly all destinations). Perhaps ABQ is affected slightly more than average because it has a lower proportion of business travelers.

A third part probably is the fact that Southwest Airlines fares, while still quite attractive, are not quite as cheap as they used to be. At higher fare levels, fewer people travel. And since WN is a large proportion of the activity in ABQ, the affect is quite noticeable.

Despite it, ABQ has done comparatively well over the past 20-30 years, and of course I hope it continues to do so. Hang in there!
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4633
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 21):
Maybe an aircraft like the C-Series can turn this around, but until the economics change in the current 100 seat fleet or ABQ goes through a big population boom, anything over 2.5 hours is going to look very marginal.

Is the E190 too big, or is it just a fuel hog for its size? I remember several years back that the 190 was supposed to be the savior of the smaller markets.

Albuquerque has been growing very quickly, but it still has a ways to go before it can be considered a large market. It's a bit bigger than Omaha right now, and a bit smaller than Tucson.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7586
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting n9801f (Reply 24):
For instance, it has typically had more flights and destinations than ELP or TUS, which are in some ways similar cities.

Similar but different still. From a quick search looks like both Tucson and El Paso both have lower median incomes. el Paso is a touch smaller, Tucson is a touch bigger. But still alot in common including a large military presence in all three cities.

What really benefits ABQ as a whole is that there isn't another other airport with significant commercial service within reasonable driving distance. I would be willing to wager TUS would see a pretty big jump in service and certainly destinations served if PHX wasn't two hours up I-10.

What hurts ABQ, despite a pretty strong tech, entertainment and tourism businesses is that New Mexico as a whole is a pretty damn poor state overall. I think in general if the local and statewide population were better educated, and conversely better paid, ABQ would again see more air service.



With all that said I think we do reasonably well given the trend towards consolidation and capacity reduction in the industry. Couple that with a good right sized terminal that I assume isn't too expensive to operate out of ABQ is doing well. In the past few years I have never felt that finding a reasonable airfare was all that difficult and I never lacked for a choice of flights either.

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 16):
I was referring to the old Gardunios just before security. That reopened under a new name this week after having been closed for a couple of years

Los Cuates, opened yesterday. A locally owned place, but not the same as Gardunios.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:59 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
Now, all we get is 5x on US Express, and some are only CR2s, at that.

ABQ is not going to see a whole lot of variety when WN has 56.82% pax share followed by AA @ 11.65%, Skywest @ 7.32%, Delta @ 7.21%, Mesa @3.29% and "other" @ 13.70%.

Here's a % breakdown of the commercial traffic that used ABQ during October 12-18:

73G 20.32%
RJ145 18.11%
733 17.71%
CRJ200 14.49%
CRJ 700 6.24%
CRJ 900 3.82%
E170 3.62%
735 2.82%
MD-80 2.82%
A320 2.01%
A319 1.61%
Cessna (Light aircraft) 1.61%
1900 1.21%
738 0.8%
RJ140 0.8%
E190 0.6%
MD-90 0.6%
MD-83 0.4%
A318 0.2%
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting n9801f (Reply 24):
And since WN is a large proportion of the activity in ABQ, the affect is quite noticeable.

Pretty much everyone in Albuquerque prefers to fly Southwest if possible, regardless of actual fares. Look how quickly they became the #1 carrier on ABQ-DEN. As for ABQ-PHX, I'm guessing that Albuquerque's loyalty to WN is what caused US Airways to simply be uncompetitive with WN on the route, thus the reductions down to only US Airways Express RJ service.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
desertjets
Posts: 7586
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 27):
ABQ is not going to see a whole lot of variety when WN has 56.82% pax share followed by AA @ 11.65%, Skywest @ 7.32%, Delta @ 7.21%, Mesa @3.29% and "other" @ 13.70%.

However being a joint use facility means lots of interesting military traffic. The other week I saw a B-52 departing and last week a pair of B1-Bs were doing touch and gos on 26 for half an hour.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4633
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:21 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
As for ABQ-PHX, I'm guessing that Albuquerque's loyalty to WN is what caused US Airways to simply be uncompetitive with WN on the route, thus the reductions down to only US Airways Express RJ service.

America West was in ABQ for a very long time and it was one of their core stations early on so I doubt it was a matter of US being snubbed by the local O&D. I think the reductions down to RJ aircraft are merely an effect of wanting to put bigger planes on more profitable routes back east, and on longer routings as nobody wants to sit in an RJ for hours. PHX-ABQ is more of an acceptable stage length for a CRJ.
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 23):

Right now, it's 2x daily. On November 4th, it drops to 1x daily with no direct (no plane change) flights. Several connections are available though. I'd imagine most airlines are going to be moving schedules around due to Daylight Savings Time ending, so this is why it's being dropped. (Except Arizona and Indiana)

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 21):

I'd think even an E-Jet has the range for ABQ-PHL, or ABQ-IAD, if US or UA were to start that service. (UA already does fly ABQ-IAD on a A319/A320, I know) With only 69 seats on a US E170, 80 on a E175, or even 99 on a US E190..service *could* be feasible for a few more ABQ-East Coast flights. Maybe US could start 1x daily ABQ-CLT? If you're flying US to the east coast, you have to backtrack through PHX, then onto CLT/PHL/DCA, and onto your east coast destination...and with only 69 seats to fill...I wouldn't think it would be too difficult. That being said...I don't have PDEW data for any ABQ destinations. If it could be done economically, could US start ABQ-CLT on a E170?

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 30):

I would agree with you....judging by interior pictures I've seen of a ex-HP CR9, 0:45-1:10 at most...isn't too long on a CRJ of any type. Although in December, ABQ is getting 1-2x Daily on a A319 to PHX. I know this because I'll be flying on one in January. Is the upgauge "just because" US has the spare capacity? Seems the A319s will be rotated ABQ-PHX-OAK-PHX-ABQ, then RON in ABQ, then the next day the same routing. Does the upgauge have anything to do with PHX-OAK being upgauged from a CR9 in the winter?

[Edited 2011-11-02 14:54:55]
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
n9801f
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:23 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 31):
E190..service *could* be feasible for a few more ABQ-East Coast flights.

These are cool ideas.

However RJ's of all sorts tend to have trouble producing competitive seat-mile costs on long stage lengths, and especially when fuel prices are high.

Perhaps if/when fuel prices fall, these things would become attractive.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 31):
Indiana)

Actually, Indiana now DOES observe DST. The only states that don't are Arizona and Hawaii. Also, U.S. outlying territories (such as Puerto Rico and Guam) also don't observe DST.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 33):

Hmm. I wasn't aware about that. ABQ is gonna get a bit of a shift in all the Arizona flights coming up in a few days..as well as anything connecting through PHX or TUS. It'll be easier to get back to ABQ late...if there's one thing that US' PHX-ABQ flights have one up on WN's same route...is the late late 9-10pm departure, for those who need it.
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
crownvic
Posts: 1806
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:39 am

FutureUScapt...To single out fuel as the reason for the shuttering of the night operation, can also be construed as equally inaccurate. Not sure of your airline experience, but I can tell you, my 30+ years of experience in the airline business can tell you that airlines have been dealing with fuel spikes on and off for many years. Yes, fuel was a contributing factor and so are the other items relating to 9/11 that still are constantly adjusted and addressed today. Landing fees are higher, insurance costs are higher, etc. etc.

The point of the thread was simple. It was to point out that cities like ABQ are hurting like many other cities in the U.S. and there are many factors post 9/11 that are a good portion of the reason.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2550
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 31):
With only 69 seats on a US E170, 80 on a E175, or even 99 on a US E190..service *could* be feasible for a few more ABQ-East Coast flights. Maybe US could start 1x daily ABQ-CLT? If you're flying US to the east coast, you have to backtrack through PHX, then onto CLT/PHL/DCA, and onto your east coast destination...and with only 69 seats to fill...I wouldn't think it would be too difficult. That being said...I don't have PDEW data for any ABQ destinations. If it could be done economically, could US start ABQ-CLT on a E170?

That doesn't sound like an economical addition. The 190 would make more sense, capacity wise, but I'm not sure they're flying those on anything that far. The 170 doesn't have the seats to make that an economical run. 69 seats on a route that far would require some serious O&D, with healthy ticket prices.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 31):
Is the upgauge "just because" US has the spare capacity? Seems the A319s will be rotated ABQ-PHX-OAK-PHX-ABQ, then RON in ABQ, then the next day the same routing. Does the upgauge have anything to do with PHX-OAK being upgauged from a CR9 in the winter?

It's probably a product of both of those reasons.
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 3):
The PIT comment was meant more for the fact that ABQ had service to the East Coast more than it does now. ABQ-EWR and ABQ-PIT. We've got 1x to BWI, and 1x to IAD. When did that other ABQ-BWI nonstop end? I could have sworn we had 2x to BWI..

The second BWI-ABQ flight is seasonal and will return in, early, 2012.

Also, a few years ago, WN dropped the ABQ-TPA flight. I think, at that time, they added another ABQ-MCO flight.

Most interesting, I think, is that all the mainline UA and AA ORD-ABQ is now RJ. That is a real change. Maybe, in the summer, there is mainline AA ORD-ABQ.

From years ago, when TW was flying ORD-ABQ, there was even a TW flight ICT-ABQ. It is long, long gone.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Thread starter):
I started this rant/discussion, because ABQ is going to soon lose nonstop service to PDX, at least seasonally, and my main question is, why? Why can ABQ not support the flights that it used to? Aside from the most obvious excuse (the economy), is there any specific reason for certain routes/airlines, or is it just unprofitable in general?

ABQ-PDX is seasonal and will return in early, 2012.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Posts: 4968
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 37):
Most interesting, I think, is that all the mainline UA and AA ORD-ABQ is now RJ. That is a real change. Maybe, in the summer, there is mainline AA ORD-ABQ.

Did UA ever fly ORD-ABQ mainline? I know AA did, however, not sure about UA; AA has served the route much longer than UA has.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 38):
Did UA ever fly ORD-ABQ mainline? I know AA did, however, not sure about UA; AA has served the route much longer than UA has.

A couple of times. I flew ORD-ABQ-ORD.In fact, that was one of the more memorable flightts, and trips, for me, of all time. The UA flight was aboput 7 hrs late. First mechanical and later weather. Arrived in ABQ, got to the hotel and the hotel was oversold. The hoterl wanted tp put me on a cot in the ballroom. I raised so much hell they ended up giving me a huige suite. Anyway, the route was cut. Years later, it started up again and I flew ABQ-ORD. Again, it lasted awhile. and was cut. However, at some point it became an RJ ABQ-ORD. I am ot sure if it is stll in the schedule. However,I am sure it is, at least seasonal.

[Edited 2011-11-03 08:45:40]

[Edited 2011-11-03 08:46:46]

[Edited 2011-11-03 08:47:41]
 
n9801f
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 38):
Did UA ever fly ORD-ABQ mainline?
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 39):
A couple of times.

UA started serving ABQ in 1982 (from DEN) and mainline service to ORD began in 1983.

There may have been a gap in service around the 1985 pilots' strike, however the service was still in place by 1987, and up to twice daily.

It was discontinued by 1988, resumed briefly in 1989-90, and then discontinued until the early 2000's, when it was resumed with RJ's.

There has been intermittent mainline service (holiday schedules, etc.) however the route has been primarily RJ ever since.
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 39):

Hmmm. I wonder what I'd have to do to get a suite.

But yes, ABQ-Chicago is served by AA, UA, and WN. But not good enough timing for a daytrip to LGA...which I'd like to do.
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2644
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
But seems to me at the end of the day the ABQ metro area with a population of not even 1million (908,000 per Census) is doing OK.

Don't forget its the only real commercial airport in the whole state. Maybe things have changed but even people living closer to El Paso would go to ABQ to avoid that really annoying place. Still its not alot of people, and not alot of money in the state compared to other major airports.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13626
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 15):
I remember when TWA flew L1011's into ABQ, followed by 767's.

If an airline flew a widebody into ABQ these days, it'd be for a medical diversion.

Or if it were scheduled service, the mayor would give the captain the key to the city.  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Sevensixtyseven
Topic Author
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:02 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):

ABQ already does see scheduled service on widebodies, daily. Unfortunately....they're from FedEx or UPS, so cargo only.

Diversions of widebodies, yes. DL had to divert 2 767s, not at the same time though, into ABQ. Runways were just fine, however...Delta didn't have the ground equipment for a 767....and had to borrow equipment from FedEx or UPS, as they operate widebodies into ABQ.

ABQ is actually an excellent airport for any diversions... the main runway, 8/26, is 13,793 feet long, longer than anything in PHX or TUS, and believe it or not...DFW or IAH. Our other two out of three runways are 10,000 feet long, 17/35 (currently not in use), and 3/21. The fourth runway is 12/30, with 6,000 feet. All that being said, however, why couldn't ABQ somehow market itself as a convenient place for fuel stops for intercontinental flights? Rare delays due to traffic, if any delays at all, long runways that can handle a 747 or C-5, relatively good weather year round, with not too significant snowfall and weather in the winter. Not sure what flights could use ABQ as a fuel stop on a intercontinental route however, looking at Great Circle Mapper..
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
FutureUScapt
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:39 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:26 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 35):
FutureUScapt...To single out fuel as the reason for the shuttering of the night operation, can also be construed as equally inaccurate. Not sure of your airline experience, but I can tell you, my 30+ years of experience in the airline business can tell you that airlines have been dealing with fuel spikes on and off for many years. Yes, fuel was a contributing factor and so are the other items relating to 9/11 that still are constantly adjusted and addressed today. Landing fees are higher, insurance costs are higher, etc. etc.

The point of the thread was simple. It was to point out that cities like ABQ are hurting like many other cities in the U.S. and there are many factors post 9/11 that are a good portion of the reason.

Not really. To suggest that fuel was anything other than a primary contributor to the LAS pulldown suggests a lack of understanding of what drove the LAS night operation. Certainly the softening economy (especially in LAS) was a contributing factor and if you are able to show that landing fees at LAS increased post 9/11 (really, post 2006) at a greater rate than prior to 9/11, then I suppose you could consider that a contributing factor as well, but fuel was undoubtedly the #1 cost driver.

I'm not trying to deny that 9/11 didn't play an impact - and certainly there are have been lasting impacts that you have eluded to - but the overall RASM impact, while severe, was relatively brief. The reality is that is was clear there was too much capacity in the US prior to 9/11, and 9/11 and the susequent run-up in fuel prices only exacerbated that problem.


Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 12):
The ABQ route from TUS does serve (or at least used to serve) a purpose other than a connect between the two cities. I know there were many times before the MDW route came in, I routed family from TUS-ABQ-MDW-DTW all on the same flight number and aircraft (no plane change). Besides MDW (which wasn't added until 2006), ABQ is the only way for WN travelers to get from TUS to WN's midwest and eastern cities without having to backtrack.

As others have mentioned, DEN is now a possibility and in a short time DAL will too be a possibility. My earlier statement was based more in fact than it might have suggested. Both ABQ-PHX/TUS have run 70% load factors over the last 12 months, which is well below the system average. Furthermore, there are only 70 some odd passengers each way (PDEW) on ABQ-TUS - and they pay a lower average fare than do those on the ABQ-PHX segment. There are slightly under 400 PDEWs on ABQ-PHX (that WN carries) yet WN has NINE daily departures on the route. This is a route that screams of being overserved and the story isn't much different if you look at other ABQ departures to the west on WN.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 23):
Not sure about SLC, but TUS-ABQ is probably going to stick around. Those flights are the most direct way to get to most of Texas (not just DAL), Orlando, BWI, as well as MCI/STL if the timing is right.

Currently, I agree with you. Post Wright, I disagree that ABQ will be the most convenient option to reach the majority of the destinations you have listed.
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 44):
All that being said, however, why couldn't ABQ somehow market itself as a convenient place for fuel stops for intercontinental flights?

The reason has been discussed here recently. Current law states that any international aircraft that lands in the US, even for just refueling, has to have every passenger screened and all non-US citizens have to have visas or qualify for a visa waiver. There's not that many routes that would require transiting US airspace and the ones that do exist would be tied to airports that could generate O/D traffic.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2247
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: ABQ Reduction Of Service Over The Years. Why?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:16 am

Just went through ABQ and since there were some questions about facility upgrades I thought I'd tack it onto this thread.

First, the construction prior to security is finished. The Black Mesa Coffee has reopened as has Los Cuates, which is in the space formerly occupied by Garduno's.

Post security there was a very recent gate shuffle, with UA moving back to their old home from over five years ago. They now have gates A1, A2 and A3, and are temporarily using A4. Not sure why A4 is only temporary. DL has taken over one of the gates UA occupied and now has B8, B9 and B10. As it stands now it appears five gates are unoccupied A10, A12, A14, B5 and B7.

On the post security construction it appears that the bathroom renovation at B5 is nearing completion. The plywood walls are down and the entryways appeared complete, so hopefully that means just a few finishing touches and they will be open again. Unfortunately, the space occupied by the former food court does not appear so close to completion. The walls are still up, and I believe the observation deck above is still closed.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos