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falstaff
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Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:50 pm

I was listening to 760 WJR, in Detroit, this morning on my way to work and they reported the results of the Yinvestigation into the Yak-42 crash that killed the Lokomotiv Haroslavi hockey team, back on 9-7-11. It appears one of the pilots accidentally applied the brakes during take off. This story was fairly well reported in Detroit because three of the dead were connected with the Detroit Red Wings.

http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-de...rrying-khl-team-due-to-pilot-error
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nema
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:28 pm

I was hearing this report on the BBC radio this morning. So the investigation says the brakes were applied in error during take off. The BBC report actually worded it that the brakes were accidentally caught by one of the pilots.

This leads me to ask,
1) Is it really that easy to do in this particular cockpit type, to catch the brake control?
2) Also, are you not immediately aware that you've done this both by realising you have physically caught the control and the aircraft's sudden response?
3) Considering the above, is it not possible to cancel the action to restore stability?

As a layman, these questions just come to mind, there are obviously reasons somewhere why the aircraft wasn't reconfigured immediately so as to fly without hindrance. Has such an error happened before and, in other cockpit types?
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26point2
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:35 pm

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4428da13/0014&opt=0

AvHerald article has the report.

Seems the crew was in transition from YAK 40 to YAK 42 and types have differing brake pedal designs. Unknowingly, brakes were applied during the takeoff run. Also, according to the report many other crew errors: drugs, intersection takeoff with a tailwind, not aborting takeoff, training, no crew coordination, and on and on...

How is it that the report is complete so soon after the crash? Seems it takes years to complete these reports in the west.

[Edited 2011-11-02 07:37:02]
 
Fiedman
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:05 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
How is it that the report is complete so soon after the crash? Seems it takes years to complete these reports in the west.

Depends on the complexity of the crash and how much wreckage can be collected and analyzed, in this case when looking at the CDR they can see that the pilot applied the breaks during the take-off roll with in turn caused the aircraft to not achieve proper take-off speed then the pilot pulling back hard on the stick to achieve lift-off. And with various eye witnesses reporting that the plane fell from the sky, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 + 2 together to determine what happened
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
brakes were applied during the takeoff run. Also, according to the report many other crew errors: drugs, intersection takeoff with a tailwind, not aborting takeoff, training, no crew coordination, and on and on...

Horrible reading.

Also, I remember the speculation after the incident about the age and maintenance quality of Russian aircraft; in the end none of that mattered, the fault was in the humans, both those in the cockpit and those setting up (or not) the safety culture and training regime in the airline. Kind of reminds me of the AF 447 threads where tail separation and other wild theories were being tossed around. Again, in the end human error seemed to be the (too obvious) cause.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:10 pm

http://www.startribune.com/world/133062598.html

Another link.

I find it very disturbing that the crew feared reprisals by their employer for acting safely - aborting takeoffs, go-arounds, and diversions.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:18 pm

Jeeze, basically every rule in the book that could be broken was broken, by both the pilots and those training them. Really makes you wonder how isolated of a case this could be.
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AR385
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:54 am

Phenobarbital is mentioned by being used by the FO, but I can´t remember if he was PF. Why would he have been taking phenobarbital? I could not find any speculation on the Av herald report. Anybody here knows how it is used medically? I find it hard to believe anyone would take that as a recreative drug.
 
crownvic
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:03 am

And how sad is it, that the Russian authorities then want to ground every Yak-42, TU-134, TU-154, IL-62 and every other Russian legacy airliner, when nine out ten times, there is no fault w/ the aircraft. I happens every time, one of classics crashes.
 
bennett123
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:30 am

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Phenobarbital

This could be very worrying, but it depends if his medical condition is under control or not.

Weather this has been declared to his employers is also a factor.
 
vfw614
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:45 am

Crew rostering had been done without consideration of important professional aspects, for example the crew consisted of two leaders with the authority of the first officer being higher than the captain's

Quoted from avherald - what does it mean?
 
trigged
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:25 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10):
Crew rostering had been done without consideration of important professional aspects, for example the crew consisted of two leaders with the authority of the first officer being higher than the captain's

Quoted from avherald - what does it mean?

If I am reading it correctly, the pilot acting as First Officer was higher in rank than the pilot acting as Captain. It would be akin to a Major sitting in the left seat and a Colonel sitting in the right seat.
 
AR385
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9):
This could be very worrying, but it depends if his medical condition is under control or not.

Thank you for the link. I understand its uses for epilepsy. I had a couple of friends who used it for that. But then what are the rules for a pilot with epilepsy regarding his medical in Russia? Even if it is under control, can he still operate a transport category aircraft?

The other issue I have is that since it is also used to treat benzodiazepine withdrawal, which are in turn used to treat alcohol withdrawal symptoms, particularly DTS, I´m wondering if he did not have a severe alcoholism problem he was trying to keep in check.

No, where I live, barbiturates are incredibly difficult to come by. As an epileptic, for example, you have to have shown to be non-responsive to benzos and then again the prescription can only be filled by a special doctor who has a license to prescribe such drugs, and they are only available at hospital pharmacies. In the black market (your friendly corner drug dealer), they are practically non-existent, as they´ve also been displaced by benzos, particularly Clonazepam.

I ask all this, because according to the Avherald report, the MAK found a lnk between the brake pressure he unknowingly applied and the phenobarbital use. Could then this not turn also into a criminal investigation?

[Edited 2011-11-03 12:34:16]
 
bennett123
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RE: Yak-42 Crash On 9-7-11, Pilot Error.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:15 pm

Well I am on tablets due to past Epilepsy, and could drive a car, (if I had a licence  ).

So this may not automatically be a blocker.

If he had not told his employer and doctor, then this may be more of an issue.

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