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ODwyerPW
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:27 pm

Has there been any recent development along 737Max front?

Has anyone heard any announcements related to configuration or sales compaigns?

Boeing have today released an update which you can find here

Boeing

SEATTLE, Nov. 3, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today that the 737 MAX program has selected a 68-inch fan diameter for the optimized engine design that will provide the lowest fuel burn and operating costs in the single-aisle market.

The 737 MAX continues to receive overwhelming acceptance from customers with more than 600 order commitments received to date from eight airlines, up from 496 airplanes from five airlines when the program launched in August.


[Edited 2011-11-03 14:16:41 by PanAm_DC10]
learning never stops.
 
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:30 pm

Boeing states they have MoUs for around 500 units.

Some are speculating Boeing will not formally sign orders until 2012 to launch the new year with a huge splash since Airbus has already unequivocally won the 2011 orders race thanks to the A320neo launch.
 
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Revelation
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Some are speculating Boeing will not formally sign orders until 2012 to launch the new year with a huge splash since Airbus has already unequivocally won the 2011 orders race thanks to the A320neo launch.

Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
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scbriml
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:38 pm

Boeing seems to be "very relaxed" about it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...ing-aircraft-idUSLDE7A001T20111101

Quote:
Boeing is likely to decide where its revamped 737 Max will be built in 6-8 months, but has no timeline yet for when provisional orders for the plane will become firm ones, its top marketing executive said on Tuesday.

...

In terms of commitments to orders, that's going to be on a case by case basis," he said, adding that work was ongoing on the configuration, on optimising the engine and defining what range the aircraft would provide.

He declined to give a timeline.

I'd expect at least some news (even if no order announcements) at Dubai in a couple of weeks.
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WarpSpeed
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
Boeing seems to be "very relaxed" about it.

Ironically, they seem to have a Type "B" personality vs. a Type "A" for Airbus.  
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N14AZ
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

That's what I would do as well but who knows what is going on behind the curtains.
 
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

Signed orders "today" that are then cancelled "tomorrow" due to economic difficulties are no different, in the end, then orders never placed due to economic difficulties.

Sure, Boeing might earn some interest on the deposits before they were refunded, but...
 
XT6Wagon
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:12 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Sure, Boeing might earn some interest on the deposits before they were refunded, but...

and Boeing might have deposits on those 500 frames the same size as if they were a real order. Deposits securing early slots that major airlines will not want slipping away.
 
BMI727
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting odwyerpw (Thread starter):
Has there been any recent development along 737Max front?

Not that I've heard. It might be tacit confirmation that the 737MAX launched this summer was a very loosely defined concept with most of the details left to be filled in. I still think that they said that it would be a 737 with new engines and didn't go much beyond that. Now we know it will have LEAP-X, but that's about as much as is known for sure.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

And before Boeing, Airbus, or the engine people give any solid performance numbers. Of course, depending on who orders it, that deposit money could be 787 compensation.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
baroque
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It might be tacit confirmation that the 737MAX launched this summer was a very loosely defined concept with most of the details left to be filled in. I still think that they said that it would be a 737 with new engines and didn't go much beyond that. Now we know it will have LEAP-X, but that's about as much as is known for sure.

Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

It is all a measure of how much is invested in a particular type of airplane rather than how well it performs. I wonder if the main guarantee given has been a low weight, or at least lower than a NEO.
 
astuteman
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:13 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 7):
and Boeing might have deposits on those 500 frames the same size as if they were a real order. Deposits securing early slots that major airlines will not want slipping away.

Without a firm contract? Unlikely, I would have thought..

Rgds
 
qfa787380
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:35 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

So, you don't believe Boeing have 496 commitments apparently all to be firmed for the Max? I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross. Admittedly, this has taken a month or 2 longer than expected but I think it's pretty close.
 
PlanesNTrains
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:17 am

Well, it's interesting the pressure that they were under just a few short months ago to present their option, and now it's almost as if no one cares anymore. Euphoria, euphoria, euphoria...

-Dave
-Dave
 
BMI727
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:20 am

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
So, you don't believe Boeing have 496 commitments apparently all to be firmed for the Max?

I think they have commitments, but they don't have orders because there isn't really anything dialed in enough to order at the moment.

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross.

Perhaps by now they are getting a better idea and orders may not be too far away, but I think Boeing had little idea what their plane would be when they launched it. They needed something just solid enough that American could commit to it, lest it be an Airbus sweep, and tossed it on the table just quick enough to get a token order since their deal was that good. At that point, I believe it was a re-engined 737 and nothing really more specific than that.

And that American order not only scared them away from a new plane, but scared Boeing so far back into their shell that they may not make it as long with a re-engined plane as they would hope and may be backed into a corner come the beginning of the next decade.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
baroque
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:14 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
Euphoria, euphoria, euphoria...

Seems that way. Of course we could have misheard and it was actually "Euphorbia, Euphorbia, Euphorbia" as part of a plan to develop synthetic aircraft fuels? Are Poinsettia plants de rigeur in offices at Boeing by any chance?

I wonder how the work is being divided up for the Leap engines between those for the NEO and those for the MAX. One assumes that each airframer will be taking a keen interest not only in "their own" version but also in the "other" version.

Presumably with its timing B is hoping to benefit from any mis-steps the NEO version might have.
 
Flyglobal
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:51 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
I wonder how the work is being divided up for the Leap engines between those for the NEO and those for the MAX. One assumes that each airframer will be taking a keen interest not only in "their own" version but also in the "other" version.

Presumably with its timing B is hoping to benefit from any mis-steps the NEO version might have.



I do not believe that Boeing is hoping for Airbus mis-steps,this would be rather stupid and Boeing reality folks are not that stupid. Boeing is clearly on the hook here. Airbus has pretty much a free choice with the engine sizing to an optimum. Boeing is limited and they either compensate with airframe improvements on cost of more modification on subsequent higher investment, And still Airbus could add the one or other percent on frame improvement if they would spend 1 b more.

The battle is behind the scene. CFM will have trouble to commit to fuel burns similar to the Airbus version and the more they do this the more Airbus and probably the Airbus NEO CFM customers will ask CFM: you better give us the same core, we do not accept to be treated as second valued customer. Warn you.

And that is what I believe is behind the scene: To get the specs in the range as they announced it, Boeing may have to commit to a higher investments (e.g. for getting a bigger fan under the wing), and that balance agreement needs more time and Boeing internal agreement.

Regards

Flyglobal
 
Burkhard
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:15 am

Boeing, ( not to loose faith for their change of minds ) treats the 737MAX just as a normal modification of its successfull 737 family. This is contrary to Airbus, who makes a big deal around it to justify the increase of the price.

So it ends as expected - Boeing just makes this major improvement among the many others, gets a slightly lower advantage from it, but does not increase the price, Airbus makes a big show around it, gets a better margin per aircraft - and in the end the relative market share remains and everybody is happy.
 
Ruscoe
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:57 am

How far along the development road is the A320. It might not be as far as we believe.
Airbus have given themselves a lot of time for an "updater", and have shown their hand so Boeing now have something to better.

It still begs the question
Why did Airbus launch the neo now anyway? They had great sales albeit at lower than desirable margins..
They have replaced certainty with an amount of uncertainty, and given their rival a target to better.?

Whilw enthusiasts may crow about the NEO, there is doubt as to whether it was really a good nstrategic move.

I don't know any detasils of the 737MAX that other don't also know, but it could turn out to be a very competitive aircraft even with LEAP engines.

Ruscoe
 
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:37 am

The latest rumors making the rounds is CFM will go with a 68" fan for the LEAP-1XB.
 
Rheinbote
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:51 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

  

At the current level of definition, the commitments are likely to be close to letters of intent without any deposits.

I think the MAX was invented only in the very moment that Boeing realized they were going to lose the American deal. I think they are still struggling to figure how to define a configuration around what their salesmen offered. And how to design and build that within the tight cost brackets they got from the B board.

I believe all they have right now is some high-level requirements and the tech portfolios of the 737RS, 737RE and NG+.
 
Tristarsteve
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:17 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand

But you can't sign an order until you know what you are getting. An order is a big thick document. It details the options and parts of the aircraft precisely. It will say you are having Goodrich brakes and Honeywell IRS etc etc.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
The latest rumors making the rounds is CFM will go with a 68" fan for the LEAP-1XB.

and we don't even know what size the engine is!

So there cannot be any orders yet.
 
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scbriml
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross. Admittedly, this has taken a month or 2 longer than expected but I think it's pretty close.

They still don't know which size engine they'll use. There seems to be several things that Boeing still doesn't know at this point.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I think they have commitments, but they don't have orders because there isn't really anything
dialed in enough to order at the moment.

  

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
Why did Airbus launch the neo now anyway? They had great sales albeit at lower than desirable margins..

And now they have even better sales.    Which also answers the first part.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
there is doubt as to whether it was really a good nstrategic move

Doubt?   

The sales that have been generated in less than one year would already suggest that there is actually no doubt whatsoever. That Boeing has U-turned from their "We're going to build a new plane" position to mimic Airbus simply confirms it was the right decision.
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rheinwaldner
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:22 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 19):
I believe all they have right now is some high-level requirements and the tech portfolios of the 737RS, 737RE and NG+.

I believe they know quite well how far they get by investing little. They have studied this for years and the conclusion has led them to serious considerations of abandoning the 737.

But as the 737MAX no longer is just one of different possible strategies, they now have to resolve the issues. As you say the minimum requirements probably don't give much room to maneouvre. Boeing simply has to deliver as much changes until the gap to the A320NEO is largely closed. I am quite curious whether the low-effort approach will proove as wishful thinking or become reality....
 
Flyglobal
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
How far along the development road is the A320. It might not be as far as we believe.
Airbus have given themselves a lot of time for an "updater", and have shown their hand so Boeing now have something to better.



According To my understanding it is as far as Pratt and CFM are with their engines.
Airbus itself is busy (probably completed) with integrating the shark lets for 2012 and adding the pylons fitting to the engine and adopt all the controls interfaces (hardware and software) shouldn't be a big deal.

In case of a 'wonder frame' of fhe 737-7/8/9 I believe that Airbus would still be able to pull some more expensive frame update for an additional 2% Fuel burn improvement out the sleeves.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 19):
I think they are still struggling to figure how to define a configuration around what their salesmen offered. And how to design and build that within the tight cost brackets they got from the B board.



I am fully with you there and that is what I believe takes that long and longer then expected to finish the spec. And it may still take some time, as a 68 fan (following lightsaber) can't be the optimum for this thrust class when the engine makers come to other conclusions when not limited with under wing space.

I also doubt that the nearly 500 sales interests are anywhere near real sales. However if the find a spec as announced per Marketing, sales could firm up pretty quick, let alone 500.

They are busy all time to stay with their modifications within the financial limits the board gave them.

I wouldn't even be surprised, if Boeing comes back to an all new Narrow Body after all discussions.

regards

flyglobal
 
328JET
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:01 pm

The orders are pending because Boeing is still in a very early phase of defining the details of the MAX.

I, personally, have no clue how they want to achieve a lower fuel burn than Airbus with the NEO with a smaller engine diameter...
 
Burkhard
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 24):
I, personally, have no clue how they want to achieve a lower fuel burn than Airbus with the NEO with a smaller engine diameter...

There will be applications where the fuel burn might be lower due to the lower weight of the smaller body, add the 3% marketing and it is enough for them.
 
SeJoWa
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:25 pm

I wonder if it would be aerodynamically sensible to increase dihedral of the wing from the root to the engine mount points.
 
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seabosdca
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 24):
I, personally, have no clue how they want to achieve a lower fuel burn than Airbus with the NEO with a smaller engine diameter...

In the same ways that the current 737NG sometimes outperforms the current A32s despite a smaller engine diameter.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Boeing chooses 68-inch fan diameter for 737 MAX engines
Order commitments for new 737 MAX now stand at more than 600.

More coming on Twitter
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JAL
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:39 pm

Beside American, has anyone ordered it?

I still think Boeing should have come out with an all new model.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
rheinwaldner
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 28):
Boeing chooses 68-inch fan diameter for 737 MAX engines
Order commitments for new 737 MAX now stand at more than 600.

See here a source http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011...-than-600-commitments-for-737-max/
Extending the landing gear is the first evidence of doing more than initially wanted. IIRC they explictely said, "we can do it with the existing ground clearance and without changing the gears...".
 
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Revelation
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 28):
More coming on Twitter

Flightblogger reports "Albaugh says one control surface on 737 MAX will be fly-by-wire".

We know 747-8 has fly-by-wire ailerons and spoilers. Wonder what we'll see on the MAX?

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 30):
Extending the landing gear is the first evidence of doing more than initially wanted. IIRC they explictely said, "we can do it with the existing ground clearance and without changing the gears...".

Indeed.

It shows to me how Boeing's "Plan B" really had no meat on the bones.

http://www.cfm56.com/products/cfm56-7b/cfm56-7b-technology shows the current CFM56-7b for 737NG is 61".

http://www.cfm56.com/products/cfm56-5b/cfm56-5b-technology shows the current CFM56-5b for A32x is 68", right where 737MAX is going.

Coincidence?

PW1124G/1127G/1133G will be 81". Looks like Boeing will lose the "mine's bigger!" contest!  
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tistpaa727
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:47 pm

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 30):
See here a source http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011...-than-600-commitments-for-737-max/
Extending the landing gear is the first evidence of doing more than initially wanted.

Where did you read this in the link you provided? Or is it that a 68" fan requires lengthened MLG?
Don't sweat the little things.
 
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 30):
Extending the landing gear is the first evidence of doing more than initially wanted.

The slide says they are strengthening the MLG, not lengthening it.

It sounds like Boeing might be considering TOW increases to offer additional fuel load or payload.
 
tistpaa727
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
The slide says they are strengthening the MLG, not lengthening it.

I just saw Jon posted a story saying the nose gear is lengthened 6-8 inches. Looks like Jim Albaugh said it during the presentation.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeing-picks-68in-fan-nose-gea.html
Don't sweat the little things.
 
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 34):
I just saw Jon posted a story saying the nose gear is lengthened 6-8 inches.

Thanks.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
We know 747-8 has fly-by-wire ailerons and spoilers. Wonder what we'll see on the MAX?

Spoilers per the FG article.
 
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scbriml
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 34):
I just saw Jon posted a story saying the nose gear is lengthened 6-8 inches.

Confirmed by another source:
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...-737max-will-have-61-inch-fan.html

Quote:
Boeing will upgrade the 737 into the 737Max by expanding the engine diameter to 68 engines, and by raising the front landing gear “6 to 8 inches” to allow the larger engines under the wing.

Maybe they should proof-read their articles? With 68 engines, the engine-out take-off performance should be amazing!   
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Revelation
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
The slide says they are strengthening the MLG, not lengthening it.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 36):

Confirmed by another source:
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n....html

Another interesting quote from the article:

Quote:

In his remarks, he said the 68 inch diameter is the right solution for the 737, although the engine will be smaller in diamter than the competing A320neo’s.

“It’s a sweet spot in terms of fuel burn, drag on airplane and also additional weight to the airplane,” he said, adding that larger fan sizes also create more weight and drag.

Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong?

There's a big difference between 68" and 81", especially since drag increases with the square of radius.
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:40 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong?

  

Sounds more like Airbus has the solution optimized for their airframe and Boeing has the solution optimized for their airframe.

After all, if engine fan size was all that mattered, the 777-200ER should have clubbed the A330-300 like a harp seal.  
 
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scbriml
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong?



Or maybe he's just painting the picture that way because Boeing has no other realistic choice? To quote the old song, accentuate the positive.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
WarpSpeed
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong?

Guy Norris quotes Albaugh as saying 68 inches is the right decision for "us." That would suggest his comments originate from the perspective of the existing 737 frame and its constraints. Remember, he's no John Leahy.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest



[Edited 2011-11-03 10:44:31]
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Stitch
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 39):
Or maybe he's just painting the picture that way because Boeing has no other realistic choice? To quote the old song, accentuate the positive.  

Honestly, Boeing wanted to go with a bigger fan - on a new airplane, no less.

Customers said "we won't wait - give us the current frame with what you can" so it appears engine fan size doesn't matter to airliner operators as much as it seems to matter to airliner enthusiasts.

So Boeing listened to their customers and gave them the current frame with what they could. And even with "no idea of what to offer customers", those customers have committed to 600 of the bloody things so far...

...and that appears to be without WN and FR adding their own commitments - commitments which will likely be worth many hundreds each.
 
astuteman
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
So, you don't believe Boeing have 496 commitments apparently all to be firmed for the Max? I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross. Admittedly, this has taken a month or 2 longer than expected but I think it's pretty close.

Your confidence just reminds me of the intensity of the scepticism you seemed to display when the A320NEO was just launched. I didn't spot when the rules changed, but its no surprise   

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16):
Boeing, ( not to loose faith for their change of minds ) treats the 737MAX just as a normal modification of its successfull 737 family. This is contrary to Airbus, who makes a big deal around it to justify the increase of the price.

??????? Don't get this one bit

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16):
Boeing just makes this major improvement among the many others, gets a slightly lower advantage from it, but does not increase the price

You've seen their pricing data for the MAX?

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
Why did Airbus launch the neo now anyway?

Blindingly obvious for anyone who wants to look - to lock up market share for "new engined" narrowbodys before anyone else does..

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
They had great sales

Indeed

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
albeit at lower than desirable margins

This unsubstantiated kite flying once more?
All the evidence points to the converse.....

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
Whilw enthusiasts may crow about the NEO, there is doubt as to whether it was really a good nstrategic move.

Laughable.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 27):
Quoting 328JET (Reply 24):I, personally, have no clue how they want to achieve a lower fuel burn than Airbus with the NEO with a smaller engine diameter...
In the same ways that the current 737NG sometimes outperforms the current A32s despite a smaller engine diameter.

Correct. I don't think this is an issue in the grand scheme of things



Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 34):
I just saw Jon posted a story saying the nose gear is lengthened 6-8 inches. Looks like Jim Albaugh said it during the presentation.

Thanks to you for posting a link to the first evidence in answer to the OP's question   

Rgds
 
fpetrutiu
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:12 pm

"SEATTLE, Nov. 3, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today that the 737 MAX program has selected a 68-inch fan diameter for the optimized engine design that will provide the lowest fuel burn and operating costs in the single-aisle market.

The 737 MAX continues to receive overwhelming acceptance from customers with more than 600 order commitments received to date from eight airlines, up from 496 airplanes from five airlines when the program launched in August.

The program is on schedule with internal configuration milestones of the new jet, with a continued focus on engagement with customers and partners to optimize the engine core architecture. Firm configuration for the airplane is scheduled for 2013. First flight for the 737 MAX is scheduled in 2016 with deliveries to customers beginning in 2017.

"The 737 is a more efficient, lighter design and requires less thrust than other airplanes in this class, which is important because weight and thrust have a significant effect on fuel efficiency and operating costs," said John Hamilton, 737 Chief Program Engineer. "With airlines facing rising fuel costs and weight-based costs equating to nearly 30 percent of an airline's operating costs, this optimized 68-inch fan design will offer a smaller, lighter and more fuel-efficient engine to ensure we maintain the current advantage we have over the competition."

The new 737 family will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1B engines. The new-engine variant will have 10-12 percent lower fuel burn than current 737s and a 7-percent operating cost advantage over the competition. The airplane will have the capacity for increased range while providing better fuel efficiency than today's already-efficient 737.

When compared to a fleet of 100 of today's most fuel-efficient airplanes, this new model will emit 277,000 fewer tons of CO2 and save nearly 175 million pounds of fuel per year, which translates into $85 million in cost savings. The airplane's fuel burn is expected to be 16 percent lower than our competitor's current offering and 4 percent lower than their future offering.

The Boeing 737 is the world's most popular and reliable commercial jet transport. The 737 family has won orders for more than 9,000 airplanes.

Contact:

Karen Crabtree
Product Strategy Communications
Boeing Commercial Airplanes
+1-206-766-2930
karen.r.crabtree@boeing.com

SOURCE Boeing
"

Source: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2004

OVER 600 commitments??? Nice...
 
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lightsaber
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
How far along the development road is the A320. It might not be as far as we believe.

The engines are the long lead item. They've had a few years head start over the LEAP-X.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 20):
It will say you are having Goodrich brakes and Honeywell IRS etc etc.

It amazes me how much is customized. Aircraft are really commisioned (not ordered). One picks what you mentioned, the galley vendor, cart vendor (some airframes, not all), tire vendor, etc. On some airframes, one can even select among APUs! (Note: All newer airframes have sole source APUs last I looked. I'm talking older airframes...)

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
The sales that have been generated in less than one year would already suggest that there is actually no doubt whatsoever. That Boeing has U-turned from their "We're going to build a new plane" position to mimic Airbus simply confirms it was the right decision.

Airbus brought a huge number of customers 'off the fence.'

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 23):
According To my understanding it is as far as Pratt and CFM are with their engines.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
After all, if engine fan size was all that mattered, the 777-200ER should have clubbed the A330-300 like a harp seal.

   Nice comeback.

My take is that the A320NEO and 737MAX will be optimized for different missions. This will see airlines with very strong opinions on which airframe is more optimal. The added weight and climb penalty of the A320NEO's engines will have that airframe at a slight disadvantage on shorter missions. The opposite will be true on longer missions. Put the two airframes performance and run a simulation on each airline's route map... Let the lower cost one win.   

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 43):
The airplane's fuel burn is expected to be 16 percent lower than our competitor's current offering and 4 percent lower than their future offering.

Which mission?  

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
N14AZ
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 36):
Confirmed by another source:
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n....html
Quote:
Boeing .. will upgrade the 737 into the 737 Max by expanding the engine diameter to 68 inches, and raise the front landing gear “6 to 8 inches” to allow the larger engines under the wing.

Haa, that's what I thought all the time. The final version (most probably) of the 737 will be nose-up while the first version (-100) started nose-down.





Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 43):
The 737 MAX continues to receive overwhelming acceptance from customers with more than 600 order commitments received to date from eight airlines,

I don't know why but I think a small regional airline from Germany could be amongst these airlines...
 
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 43):
Firm configuration for the airplane is scheduled for 2013.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am a bit surprised by this. Or am I missing something? Is the A320NEO configuration firm? I thought it was....

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Which mission?  

The one that they use for marketing, which also happens to be the one where the product performs best in comparison with its competitors. (And lo and behold, the competition also appears to use the same marketing strategy with their best mission. Nothing new under the sun...)
 
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:50 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 39):

Or maybe he's just painting the picture that way because Boeing has no other realistic choice? To quote the old song, accentuate the positive.

  

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 43):
The airplane's fuel burn is expected to be 16 percent lower than our competitor's current offering and 4 percent lower than their future offering.

Which mission?

Since this is a Boeing PR release, whatever one that makes Boeing look the best, of course!  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
After all, if engine fan size was all that mattered, the 777-200ER should have clubbed the A330-300 like a harp seal.

Nice comeback.

Maybe if the 777-200ER and A330-300 were as similar as are A320 and 738...

Googling brought up the following:

Quote:

A330-300 vs 777-200

Evaluating the economics of a 5,000NM trip (close to average route length for most 777-200ER operators; long for the A330-300).
The 777-200ER�s MTOW is 150,000lbs heavier than the A330-300�s. The 777-200ER has the highest fuel burn, which is (at today�s prices) $18,000 higher than the A330-300�s. Maintenance costs for the A330-300 and 777-200ER: the Airbus will have about $65-90 per hour lower maintenance costs than the 777-200ER. Similar flightcrew salaries, and one less flight attendant for the A330 overall result in the 777-200ER having the highest cash DOC trip cost. This is $19,000 more than the A330-300 on the 5,000NM trip. The 777-200ER also has the highest list price at $190 million, compared to $166 million for the A330-300, but actual prices have been known to vary from list price . The 777-200ER has a 23-seat higher capacity, which allows more bums on seats to partially overcome its higher trip cost. The 777-200ER still, nevertheless, has the highest cost per seat.

So, not nearly as comparable as A320 vs 738, me thinks.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
My take is that the A320NEO and 737MAX will be optimized for different missions. This will see airlines with very strong opinions on which airframe is more optimal. The added weight and climb penalty of the A320NEO's engines will have that airframe at a slight disadvantage on shorter missions. The opposite will be true on longer missions. Put the two airframes performance and run a simulation on each airline's route map... Let the lower cost one win.

I realize both vendors are working in the context of their existing products, but it's interesting to me to consider if they were starting from scratch right now, which mission would they favor?

We've had discussions here before on on airliners optimized for shorter missions, and it seems there just isn't the market interest for them.

So, it'll be interesting to see how Airbus does on the longer missions, and if it's enough for them to widen the overall market leadership they now enjoy.
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astuteman
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong?

There's a big difference between 68" and 81", especially since drag increases with the square of radius.

To be fair, he says 68" is "the right size for the airframe". Insofar as 68" has already caused additional changes to be required of the 737, 81" could well be expected to add considerable weight and complexity to an airframe that's not really designed to accommodate it, and which may in overall cost terms, be counterproductive.

I assume 81" (or 78" for CFM) is "the right size for the airframe" for an A320 in the same way.

Perhaps worth remembering that the A320's engines are already 68" compared to the 737's 61", so the relative change in size isn't actually as big as is made out.

Rgds
 
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EPA001
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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1

Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
My take is that the A320NEO and 737MAX will be optimized for different missions.

I believe so too. But I am still wondering where the 600 commitments are coming from. The NEO launched without a launch customer but we now know who is responsible for each and every one of the 1,200 or 1,300 orders/commitments being signed for them.  .

So far we know of AA on the MAX-program. Most likely Southwest and Ryanair are among the 600, but who else? Why are they not disclosing these details?   .

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