united319
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DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:18 pm

Hi All,

Just wondering if anybody has a picture of DL's route network when the DFW Hub was at its peak (in terms of number of destinations)? Would love to see this. I remember seeing the OO route maps a few years ago when DL still had some RJ flying from DFW.

Thanks,
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FlyPNS1
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:26 pm

This should cover it for you.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html
 
simairlinenet
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:29 pm

http://www.airchive.com/html/timetable-and-route-maps/delta-n-east

Scroll down to 2003. That's as close as you can get.

I don't recall SkyWest doing any significant flying out of DFW though, that was almost (all?) ASA.
 
ScottB
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:37 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 3):
I don't recall SkyWest doing any significant flying out of DFW though, that was almost (all?) ASA.

OO did some flying out of DFW once Delta started to shuffle the Delta Connection carriers to avoid a repeat of the crippling effects of the Comair pilots' strike on CVG. I flew OO between DFW & IAH a number of times in the early aughts. RP also came into DFW for DCI (with E135's) in the waning days of the DFW hub.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):
OO did some flying out of DFW once Delta started to shuffle the Delta Connection carriers

Correct. In the 2003-04 timeframe, OO had a decent number of flights of out of DFW for DL. I remember OO flying PNS-DFW as it was the first time we had ever seen OO in PNS.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:52 pm

I looked on Departed Flights for the greatest number of FLIGHTS (both mainline and commuter) closest to the demise. I chose 1 Nov 2003 even though it was much greater around 1995 and before.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=FYV-DFW%0d%0aLAW-DFW%0d%0aSPS-DFW%0d%0aABI-DFW%0d%0aCLL-DFW%0d%0aILE-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aTYR-DFW%0d%0aBPT-DFW%0d%0aFSM-DFW%0d%0aHOU-DFW%0d%0aMEM-DFW%0d%0aOKC-DFW%0d%0aBHM-DFW%0d%0aCOS-DFW%0d%0aVPS-DFW%0d%0aJAN-DFW%0d%0aSDF-DFW%0d%0aLBB-DFW%0d%0aBNA-DFW%0d%0aXNA-DFW%0d%0aPNS-DFW%0d%0aPHX-DFW%0d%0aSHV-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aICT-DFW%0d%0aAMA-DFW%0d%0aCHS-DFW%0d%0aCRP-DFW%0d%0aELP-DFW%0d%0aHSV-DFW%0d%0aIND-DFW%0d%0aJAX-DFW%0d%0aLFT-DFW%0d%0aMOB-DFW%0d%0aMLU-DFW%0d%0aMGM-DFW%0d%0aRDU-DFW%0d%0aSAV-DFW%0d%0aTUS-DFW%0d%0aDCA-DFW%0d%0aAEX-DFW%0d%0aCMH-DFW%0d%0aDTW-DFW%0d%0aGSO-DFW%0d%0aTYS-DFW%0d%0aLEX-DFW%0d%0aMSP-DFW%0d%0aOAK-DFW%0d%0aONT-DFW%0d%0aSNA-DFW%0d%0aTLH-DFW%0d%0aFLL-DFW%0d%0aPDX-DFW%0d%0aPBI-DFW%0d%0aBOS-DFW%0d%0aLAS-DFW%0d%0aLGA-DFW%0d%0aSAN-DFW%0d%0aSFO-DFW%0d%0aSEA-DFW%0d%0aTPA-DFW%0d%0aLAX-DFW%0d%0aABQ-DFW%0d%0aATL-DFW%0d%0aMCO-DFW%0d%0aCVG-DFW%0d%0aSLC-DFW%0d%0a&MS=wls&MR=300&MX=720x360&PM=*

Great Circle Mapper
http://www.gcmap.com/

[Edited 2011-11-02 14:00:52]
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:01 pm

Just for the heck of it, 31 October 1993, the greatest number of flights DL had (well, the highest number Departed Flights has data for):

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=FYV-DFW%0d%0aLAW-DFW%0d%0aSPS-DFW%0d%0aABI-DFW%0d%0aCLL-DFW%0d%0aILE-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aTYR-DFW%0d%0aBPT-DFW%0d%0aFSM-DFW%0d%0aSJT-DFW%0d%0aACT-DFW%0d%0aCRP-DFW%0d%0aICT-DFW%0d%0aSGF-DFW%0d%0aTXK-DFW%0d%0aAEX-DFW%0d%0aGGG-DFW%0d%0aLBB-DFW%0d%0aLFT-DFW%0d%0aAMA-DFW%0d%0aBHM-DFW%0d%0aJFK-DFW%0d%0aMLU-DFW%0d%0aMOB-DFW%0d%0aPSP-DFW%0d%0aSRQ-DFW%0d%0aBWI-DFW%0d%0aHSV-DFW%0d%0aJAX-DFW%0d%0aMEX-DFW%0d%0aOAK-DFW%0d%0aPBI-DFW%0d%0aPDX-DFW%0d%0aPNS-DFW%0d%0aRDU-DFW%0d%0aRNO-DFW%0d%0aRSW-DFW%0d%0aSMF-DFW%0d%0aTYS-DFW%0d%0aCOS-DFW%0d%0aEWR-DFW%0d%0aLGA-DFW%0d%0aMIA-DFW%0d%0aONT-DFW%0d%0aPHL-DFW%0d%0aSDF-DFW%0d%0aSJC-DFW%0d%0aSNA-DFW%0d%0aTPA-DFW%0d%0aTUS-DFW%0d%0aABQ-DFW%0d%0aBNA-DFW%0d%0aBOS-DFW%0d%0aCVG-DFW%0d%0aDCA-DFW%0d%0aFLL-DFW%0d%0aJAN-DFW%0d%0aLAS-DFW%0d%0aORD-DFW%0d%0aSEA-DFW%0d%0aBTR-DFW%0d%0aDEN-DFW%0d%0aELP-DFW%0d%0aHOU-DFW%0d%0aLAX-DFW%0d%0aLIT-DFW%0d%0aMCO-DFW%0d%0aMEM-DFW%0d%0aPHX-DFW%0d%0aSAN-DFW%0d%0aSFO-DFW%0d%0aSLC-DFW%0d%0aMSY-DFW%0d%0aSHV-DFW%0d%0aMCI-DFW%0d%0aAUS-DFW%0d%0aATL-DFW%0d%0aOKC-DFW%0d%0aSAT-DFW%0d%0aIAH-DFW&MS=wls&MR=300&MX=720x360&PM=b:disc7%2b%25U

Plus DFW-HNL and DFW-FRA

Great Circle Mapper
http://www.gcmap.com/

[Edited 2011-11-02 14:07:08]
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:50 pm

To be truthful, there was never really a "peak" year during Delta's tenure as a second hub airline at DFW. To me, the word "peak" is slightly misleading because the DL hub at DFW struggled to turn profits for them which lead to its eventual demise. Of course there were YoY fluctuations in number of daily scheduled flights, capacity (mainline and regional) and nonstop destinations served, but you could pinpoint different years (whether it be 1995, 2000 or 2003) and you will get entirely different sets of data.

What I have always found more fascinating is to analyze the shifts that the hub undertook as Delta's network planning team seemed to consistently "tweak" it to make it work per the type of market that DFW merited. For example, in the mid-1990's, Delta had a few long-haul flights from DFW (FRA, HNL) and transborder ones (MEX). In the late 1990's, DL flew widebody jets to markets like FLL, LAX, MCO, on 767s and L-10/11s, and even some very short haul markets like Alexandria, LA were served on a 72S or 733. This is something not even AA does today. In the early 2000's, when DL transformed DFW into an RJ-primarily hub, there were some medium-stage transcon flights like DFW-OAK or DFW-JFK flown on CRJs.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:15 pm

-SIGH-

Look at how beautifully DFW sat between the ATL and SLC hubs...a shame really.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
Look at how beautifully DFW sat between the ATL and SLC hubs...a shame really.

Yes, it is somewhat a hole in the network, but besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at? DL wasn't a strong #2 IIRC, they were a pretty weak #2. Re-entering DFW or trying to get in IAH now would be a bloodbath. Too bad...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:34 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):


Yes, it is somewhat a hole in the network, but besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at? DL wasn't a strong #2 IIRC, they were a pretty weak #2. Re-entering DFW or trying to get in IAH now would be a bloodbath. Too bad...

I wouldn't suggest they re-enter DFW, too late now, but it looked good on their route maps!
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10):
but it looked good on their route maps!

That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
texdravid
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:29 am

I for one remember well the expansive DFW routes on Delta. It seemed in the 1980's that almost every other flight was a wide-body.

One of my best experiences was DFW-LAX in summer 1982. Flew on a L-1011 on an afternoon flight. Served full meal and dessert as well. F/A's were cheery and so friendly. Had a huge group of Mary Kay cosmetics sales reps on flight, and they were fun and sang songs and such.

Of course, the huge wide-body and movies on and not a filled to the brim RJ made the experience even better.

Young people of today have no idea how much fun flying was in those days....
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bevisisback
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at?

ATL isn't all that far from DFW and IAH in the grand scheme of things, and they do pretty well out of there.

The way I see it is AA has DFW, united (continental) has IAH and DL has ATL. While im not exactly an expert here that seems pretty equal to me.
 
point2point
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:01 pm

Quoting texdravid (Reply 12):
Young people of today have no idea how much fun flying was in those days....

I read this and think of all of the flying that I did once way back when, and really, as you say, how much fun it was. Now, maybe it's a case of been there and done that, but nonetheless, flying now has become such a hassle for the most part, and something that I tend to avoid, and make a sour face if I do have to.....

Anyway, my comment doesn't have much to do with the DL/DFW hub, but this comment just struck a chord in me, so I had to write something anyways.....  
 
ckfred
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:05 pm

It looks like DL had trouble with DFW-ORD. Service started in late 1981 and worked up to 5 flights. With a reduction to 4 flights, followed by the route being dropped completely in late 1994. Then there was the short revivial in 2002.

This shows how powerful AA was flying between its two largest hubs, despite the fact that DL had a large presence at ORD long before deregulation.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke..

You do realize that DL was operating a hub and spoke system (out of ATL) back that far?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
and even some very short haul markets like Alexandria, LA were served on a 72S or 733.

I don't think so....by that time, late '90s, cities like ESF, SHV, MLU, etc. were already RJ cities.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
To be truthful, there was never really a "peak" year during Delta's tenure as a second hub airline at DFW. To me, the word "peak" is slightly misleading because the DL hub at DFW struggled to turn profits for them which lead to its eventual demise.

At that particular time, those of us that worked at SLC were told that it was a competition between us and DFW to see who would remain open as a hub. I think we had the advantage, going in, as our costs were lower to begin with.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ScottB
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:57 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I looked on Departed Flights for the greatest number of FLIGHTS (both mainline and commuter) closest to the demise. I chose 1 Nov 2003 even though it was much greater around 1995 and before.

And if you examine the map, you can see the DFW hub's two key niches in the DL network -- westbound connections from the smaller markets between DFW & ATL, as well as regional connections to markets in Texas and the states surrounding it. Delta's historically strong presence in Florida also added a disproportionate amount of traffic/flights to DFW in comparison to the size of the hub.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
SHV, MLU, etc. were already RJ cities.

SHV had mainline to DFW up til 2001. MLU still had mainline to ATL through 2001, though it was often with an intermediate stop in BHM, MGM, MOB or PNS.

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
I think we had the advantage, going in, as our costs were lower to begin with.

The bigger advantage you had at SLC was geography and no competition. Shutting down SLC would have left DL with minimal presence west of the Rockies. Losing DFW left only a small hole in the DL network.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
Losing DFW left only a small hole in the DL network.

DFW needed DL more than DL needed DFW, and even that statement is a stretch. AA was able to fill the void literally overnight.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke..

You do realize that DL was operating a hub and spoke system (out of ATL) back that far?

I meant where 90% of flights are hub and spoke, like today. Take a look at this map:

http://www.departedflights.com/DL121570.jpg
Many cities had regional P2P routes, there is a ATL-CSG-MGM-MEI-JAN-MLU-SHV-DFW flight, etc. I think it is more interesting to look at rather than today's route maps where it has a bunch of black hole cities.

Also, back on topic, you can see how DFW here is a transcon hub. Good for west-east connections.

Quoting bevisisback (Reply 13):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at?

ATL isn't all that far from DFW and IAH in the grand scheme of things, and they do pretty well out of there.

The way I see it is AA has DFW, united (continental) has IAH and DL has ATL. While im not exactly an expert here that seems pretty equal to me.

I agree somewhat. As I said, Texas is a great east-west hub, and it can serve Mexico a little bit better. DL's Mexican hubs are a bit out of the way (ATL and LAX, which is sort of a hub.) But no airline is perfect with hubs in every region. I've heard discussion of how AA and UA/CO would benefit from a southeast hub (such as ATL or CLT) because they offer great FL-north east connections, something IAH and DFW can't do. EWR and IAD can do this, but not as effectively as ATL or CLT (because these 2 can serve destinations like ORD and that area more directly than going through IAD or EWR)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:22 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Also, back on topic, you can see how DFW here is a transcon hub. Good for west-east connections.

Just as an FYI......when this map came out, it was Dallas Love Field (DAL) and not DFW.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
ATL-CSG-MGM-MEI-JAN-MLU-SHV-DFW

I know......I used to work it when I worked for DL in SHV. It is actually, mostly, the original Air Mail route #24, which was DL's original route.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:24 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
Just as an FYI......when this map came out, it was Dallas Love Field (DAL) and not DFW.

Sigh, my age is showing   Actually I have a related question, when DFW opened, did most carriers just simply shift their operations over or how did that work out? Same with MDW --> ORD. Did DL operate a DAL hub when DFW was open?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
Sigh, my age is showing Actually I have a related question, when DFW opened, did most carriers just simply shift their operations over or how did that work out? Same with MDW --> ORD. Did DL operate a DAL hub when DFW was open?

In DL's case, I believe they just shifted ops over to DFW........I don't believe DL built Dallas up as a hub until the move to DFW. As for the move from MDW to ORD, DL still had a split operation and operated at MDW until about the mid '70s, when I was at ORD. Matter of fact, DL's decision to close up MDW (one of the last airlines to do so) got them into some hot water with Mayor Daley (the father, not the son), but that's a story for another time.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PHLBOS
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
In DL's case, I believe they just shifted ops over to DFW........I don't believe DL built Dallas up as a hub until the move to DFW.

Not to de-rail this thread but when DFW opened in 1974; it opened with the intent that ALL commercial carriers (including DL) would relocate their operations there.

As we all know, one then-inTRAstate carrier that started operations 3 years earlier was able to legally fight for their right to still operate out of DAL and not move to DFW. The rest is history and the subject of many threads on this site.
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swabrian
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
In DL's case, I believe they just shifted ops over to DFW........I don't believe DL built Dallas up as a hub until the move to DFW. As for the move from MDW to ORD, DL still had a split operation and operated at MDW until about the mid '70s, when I was at ORD. Matter of fact, DL's decision to close up MDW (one of the last airlines to do so) got them into some hot water with Mayor Daley (the father, not the son), but that's a story for another time.

Actually, MDW-STL flights lasted until the early 80s. Also, if you look at the map in reply 20, you can see the remnants of the C&S route system radiating from ORD and to a lesser extent, MEM.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting swabrian (Reply 25):

Actually, MDW-STL flights lasted until the early 80s.

Operated by who??? DL?? I honestly don't think so. I can remember when DL closed MDW and it was while I was still working at ORD. By the 80s I was already gone.

Might as well tell that story about Mayor Daley and DL. At the same time that we were closing up shop in MDW, we were building a new cargo building at ORD. Work was partway done (basement excavated) when DL decided to pull out of MDW and Mayor Daley got mad and held up some of the building permits on the building until they came to some sort of agreement so the work could go on. Perhaps you are right.....maybe the MDW-STL flights were part of the deal so the building could be finished.
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RWA380
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:03 am

Not one flight to the NW at all, now look at their SEA presence, they did SEA with tags to PDX way prior to NW acquisition
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PI767
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting swabrian (Reply 25):
Actually, MDW-STL flights lasted until the early 80s.
Quoting mayor (Reply 26):

Operated by who??? DL?? I honestly don't think so.

swabrian is correct. A VERY small number of MDW-STL flights lasted through the VERY early 80s.

The last timetable I have showing the service is dated March 1, 1981.

DL 1641 MDW-STL 9:25am-10:18am D9S ExSun
DL 849 MDW-STL 4:50pm-5:43pm D9S Daily

DL 1718 STL-MDW 7:30am-8:19am D9S ExSun
DL 1606 STL-MDW 3:05pm-3:54pm D9S Daily
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting PI767 (Reply 28):

swabrian is correct. A VERY small number of MDW-STL flights lasted through the VERY early 80s.

Ok, then.......this must have been part of the deal to make peace with Mayor Daley, because DL WAS intent on pulling out of MDW, altogether.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
delta2ual
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Also, back on topic, you can see how DFW here is a transcon hub. Good for west-east connections.

Also from that route map, look at ORD,MIA, and MSY. All were focus cities for DL at that time.
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mayor
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 30):
hat route map, look at ORD,MIA, and MSY. All were focus cities for DL at that time.

At one time during the 70s, I think we had up to 90 flights per day at ORD.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 30):
look at ORD,MIA, and MSY. All were focus cities for DL at that time.

Look at the short hauls from DTW, to FWA, SDF, DAY, and TOL - all with mainline jets.

Although DL was not the biggest airline at DTW before deregulation, they were the first airline to serve DTW with pure jets on a scheduled basis (in Dec 1959, DTW-MIA), and the first airline to operate scheduled 747s into DTW (1x day DTW-ATL and 1x day DTW-MIA, beginning in Dec 1970).
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 30):
Also from that route map, look at ORD,MIA, and MSY. All were focus cities for DL at that time.

Yes, almost 20 years after the merger, Chicago and Southern continues to live! Sadly, pretty much all trace of it is gone  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
swabrian
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RE: DL DFW Hub Routes

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:17 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 32):
Look at the short hauls from DTW, to FWA, SDF, DAY, and TOL - all with mainline jets.

In fact, in 1976 DL operated L-1011s on a DTW-DAY-ATL routing

Although DL was not the biggest airline at DTW before deregulation, they were the first airline to serve DTW with pure jets on a scheduled basis (in Dec 1959, DTW-MIA), and the first airline to operate scheduled 747s into DTW (1x day DTW-ATL and 1x day DTW-MIA, beginning in Dec 1970).

At DTW they installed non-movable jetbridges for the 747, and on the first day of operation, I was told that the jetbridge and the doors wouldn't line up.