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jetjack74
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DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:52 pm

According to the Network and Planning Board, Air France will turn over Seattle-Paris effective March 24, 2012. It will operate as DL 636 on the east-bound leg departing at 1305, arriving at 0655 +1.

[Edited 2011-11-04 14:09:17]
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BoeingGuy
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:05 pm

Well many on A.net have made this prediction. I have mixed feelings. I flew the AF flight a few years ago and it was some of the best Coach service I've ever seen. On the other hand, for most of us AS mileage members in Seattle this will be a huge improvement in that aspect. The AF partnership in AS's mileage plan is very restrictive. You get NO miles and no elite qualifying points for most coach fares, except the higher unrestricted fares. But it's not clear when booking on AF's web site. You don't just have the opportunity to pick which class of coach fare, except for the high unrestricted one.

So welcome DL to the route. Hopefully it will be a good product and us AS mileage members can earn our full miles and EQP even when booking a lower coach fare.
 
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:09 pm

Question: 763 or A332 on the route?

I would assume not a 777. DL would be better off putting a 77L on the SLC-CDG route for SLC takeoff performance reasons.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
I flew the AF flight a few years ago and it was some of the best Coach service I've ever seen.

My reason for always flying with AF when I go to the USA.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
Hopefully it will be a good product

Don't count on it especially if its on one of DL 767s that still haven't been upfitted with new interiors. PAX will most likely get seats withou adjustable headrests, old TV monitors hanging from the ceiling, no menues or amenity kits and mediocre inflight service at best.

AF dropped PHL last year, now SEA I wonder which city is next on the AF list to give to DL.
A330 man.
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:20 pm

This is great news and the big winner here is AS and her Mileage Plan members. The Port of Seattle will be BUTT HURT over this as they seem to thrive on the prestige of maintaining a bouquet of international tails but they will get over it.

AS has an excellent relationship with DL in SEA on the station level and certainly from a corporate standpoint. This move will certainly solidify the relationship and bring excellent benefits for AS mileage plan members who are looking to travel to Paris and beyond.

I am happy to see what DL has done with SEA and I think that there are other big moves ahead. SEA certainly benefited from the DL/NW merger and hopefully we will see another Asia announcement or two in the next year,
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LIPZ
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
AF dropped PHL last year, now SEA I wonder which city is next on the AF list to give to DL.

The same goes for ORD, switched to DL's metal this winter.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 pm

Lame. As someone who's flown both carriers over the pond (though neither from SEA), I probably have to say that I'd much prefer AF to DL. As a local spotter, I have to say...well, whoopee...another DL Airbus.   
Not surprising, just too bad.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:53 pm

My fear is that it will go from AF to DL to nobody. Maybe it's apples and oranges, but whatever happened to PHL/PIT-CDG? AF gave it to DL and I guess it was so bad DL dropped it too. Let's hope SEA/ORD-CDG last.

Another question, I know DL/AF have a joint venture, but what is the point of DL taking these routes? I can see SEA since it's kind of a hub, but why don't we see AF flying ATL-LAX or something?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
usflyer msp
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Another question, I know DL/AF have a joint venture, but what is the point of DL taking these routes? I can see SEA since it's kind of a hub, but why don't we see AF flying ATL-LAX or something?

beacuse AF cannot fly domestic routes. AF did fly LAX-LHR for a while as a part of its JV with DL.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Let's hope SEA/ORD-CDG last.

I'm sure ORD will probably be fine. SEA probably only stands to perform better with DL on the route, though AF seems to have held their own for the last several years...I doubt this switch is being made for any reason other than the current trends with the AF/KL-DL joint venture and the slow long-haul build-up DL has going at SEA.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Another question, I know DL/AF have a joint venture, but what is the point of DL taking these routes? I can see SEA since it's kind of a hub, but why don't we see AF flying ATL-LAX or something?

I've wondered about this myself. Is AF letting DL take over a chunk of their U.S. routes to add frequency elsewhere? I haven't noticed them adding a great deal of new long-haul service elsewhere...
 
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STT757
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 3):
AF dropped PHL last year, now SEA I wonder which city is next on the AF list to give to DL.

Apparently EWR.

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 5):
The same goes for ORD, switched to DL's metal this winter.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
My fear is that it will go from AF to DL to nobody.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
whatever happened to PHL/PIT-CDG? AF gave it to DL and I guess it was so bad DL dropped it too.

That's the problem, first it's a huge step back service wise between Air France and a DL 763. Second the record is not good as pointed out, the service downgrade does not help generate excitement over the changes. The benefit is DL's costs are cheaper, the downside is DL's product is cheaper.
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cokepopper
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:13 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):

That's the problem, first it's a huge step back service wise between Air France and a DL 763. Second the record is not good as pointed out, the service downgrade does not help generate excitement over the changes. The benefit is DL's costs are cheaper, the downside is DL's product is cheaper.

Obviously you haven't flown on the referb 767's

Does anyone know if EWR-CDG will be flown by Delta?
 
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STT757
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 11):
Obviously you haven't flown on the referb 767's

Are you implying that the service on DL's refurbished 767s are superior to Air France's service on their Airbuses? They refurbishes the interior, great, but how is the service better than Air France?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
That's the problem, first it's a huge step back service wise between Air France and a DL 763. Second the record is not good as pointed out, the service downgrade does not help generate excitement over the changes. The benefit is DL's costs are cheaper, the downside is DL's product is cheaper.

Is the 763 confirmed for SEA-CDG? I realize they already have quite a few going through SEA (KIX, PEK, ATL, MSP and the second AMS frequency in the summer last I checked), but seeing as SEA is also an A330 base I wouldn't be surprised to see them find a way to get one on this route, particularly since it retains the AF's capacity and (last I checked) offers a better product than the 767. I would think the whole point of this switch is to bolster SkyTeam's position in the SEA-Europe market and downgrading the product doesn't help accomplish that.
 
cokepopper
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
Are you implying that the service on DL's refurbished 767s are superior to Air France's service on their Airbuses? They refurbishes the interior, great, but how is the service better than Air France?

Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,  
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:29 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):
Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,

No need to defend.......I have enjoyed my recent DL flights very much including a customer service team in JAX that went above and beyond to help me out in getting back to SEA during a WX issue in ATL.

I also flew PHX-ATL a few weeks ago and was thrilled to see a 763 at the gate in place of the 752.....it had the refurbished cabin and was an excellent experience....I would be fine with taking the "new" DL 763 over the pond in place of the 332.

If DL keeps doing what they are doing, there are many bright years ahead.
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
Are you implying that the service on DL's refurbished 767s are superior to Air France's service on their Airbuses? They refurbishes the interior, great, but how is the service better than Air France?

Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,  

Atta Girl.
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cokepopper
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:31 am

Remember, I never said that the service was "superior", your words, I just stated that you haven't flown on the new
referb 767. I find it funny that you say the Delta service is ""cheaper", again your words, and you haven't even flown
the product.
 
blrsea
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:32 am

AF allows checking in of 2 bags free to India from US. That was one of the reasons for me to choose either BA or AF for flights to India. Now, I am left with just BA   I guess with EK starting service to SEA from march, I can look at it too. But I wonder how easy it would be to travel non-stop for 15 hours with a toddler, compared to 10 hrs on BA/AF
 
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STT757
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 17):
Remember, I never said that the service was "superior", your words, I just stated that you haven't flown on the new
referb 767. I find it funny that you say the Delta service is ""cheaper", again your words, and you haven't even flown
the product.
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):

Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,

Such personal efforts by employees such as yourself are a nice touch, but they do not over come the difference in service. There might be some fantastic, service oriented persons at the Wafflehouse off I-95 in Brunswick Georgia. But they can't can't improve the fact that it's Wafflehouse food your eating.

Losing Air France is a loss, it's a loss for SEA, ORD, EWR etc.. Even if DL takes over it's still a step backwards, just not as much of a step backwards as losing the route all together.
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roseflyer
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:51 am

It makes a lot of sense since DL has a international mini-hub in SEA. This will be their 5th international departure from SEA. SEA is also an important maintenance base as it can bridge the A330 and 767 fleets between Asia and Europe.

Many prefer the AF service and it will be unfortunate to see an international tail dissappear from SEA, but of all the routes from the US to Paris, SEA makes sense to be served by DL. People have already shown that they will fly the DL 767s long haul out of SEA. SEA-PEK is blocked over 12 hours and one of the longest 767 routes and DL is going up against Hainan's brand new A330s yet is still flying the route.

[Edited 2011-11-04 17:54:56]
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jetjack74
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):
Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,  

I like your style.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
Is the 763 confirmed for SEA-CDG? I realize they already have quite a few going through SEA (KIX, PEK, ATL, MSP and the second AMS frequency in the summer last I checked), but seeing as SEA is also an A330 base I wouldn't be surprised to see them find a way to get one on this route, particularly since it retains the AF's capacity and (last I checked) offers a better product than the 767. I would think the whole point of this switch is to bolster SkyTeam's position in the SEA-Europe market and downgrading the product doesn't help accomplish that.

Well, it'll be confirmed, but it'll be operated with a 76U, but that's always subject to change. By that time, or by the time the summer, there'll probably more reconfiged 76T's in the system, so they're bound to see an upgrade in the level of service.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
That's the problem, first it's a huge step back service wise between Air France and a DL 763. Second the record is not good as pointed out, the service downgrade does not help generate excitement over the changes. The benefit is DL's costs are cheaper, the downside is DL's product is cheaper.

Probably the biggest difference they'll see, is age demographic of the cabin crew. Quite honestly, I don't think they'll really care as most people just want to get to where they're going. I've heard many of our FF customers who tell us horror stories about AF from time to time, so you're not always going to be guaranteed a better flight experience just because it's a foreign carrier. Give us a chance. So you have to pay to check your bags, well it's the same thing on AA, UA, US

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 17):
I find it funny that you say the Delta service is ""cheaper", again your words, and you haven't even flown the product.

Typical knee-jerk reaction from the "foreign is better cus they have cool accents" crowd.
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toobz
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:10 am

I think DL has potential to do better. DL has been doing very well on intl flights out of SEA as well as PDX. I say it's here to stay.
And in reference to AF service being better than DL..that's debatable. I find DL to have some of the better crews. AF is robotic. And they never smile.
 
HVNandrew
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:24 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 21):
Probably the biggest difference they'll see, is age demographic of the cabin crew. Quite honestly, I don't think they'll really care as most people just want to get to where they're going. I've heard many of our FF customers who tell us horror stories about AF from time to time, so you're not always going to be guaranteed a better flight experience just because it's a foreign carrier. Give us a chance.

Very true. I flew AZ over to Rome for the first time in the spring, and I was worried because I had heard some pretty negative things about the AZ experience. It was one of the best flights of my life from a service standpoint. Fairly light load, so I asked one of the FAs if I could move toward the back to have my own row. He not only obliged but even moved my bags for me. I was clearly flying alone and young-ish (21 at the time, but sadly I look no older than 18), and the FA did everything to make me comfortable - including sneaking me a plentiful amount of wine as we were awaiting takeoff! Great surprise and a great flight. Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read online.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:44 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 21):
I've heard many of our FF customers who tell us horror stories about AF from time to time, so you're not always going to be guaranteed a better flight experience just because it's a foreign carrier.

  

I'm really mystified by this "AF is better than DL" sentiment that seems pervasive on here. I think AF's catering is slightly better, and their hard product blows the old 763 product out of the water. But in terms of the people, I've had good and bad experiences on both, and I might even say that DL has a slight edge. Most of my really bad longhaul experiences on DL have been to South America, not Europe. And DL's ground staff at pretty much any hub is far better than AF's at CDG, which is horrendously bad. I rarely transit CDG without seeing AF staff shouting at passengers.
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airtechy
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:13 am

I totally avoid CDG because of a very bad experience with an AF staff member who insisted that I try speaking French at the check in counter....business class. And there were others...this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak.

The AF in-flight experience was OK but very robotic. I'll take Delta's more friendly service any day especially with the new cabins.

Jim
 
klkla
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
Lame. As someone who's flown both carriers over the pond (though neither from SEA), I probably have to say that I'd much prefer AF to DL. As a local spotter, I have to say...well, whoopee...another DL Airbus.
Not surprising, just too bad

I think it depends on whether you're flying in the front or back of the plane. I much prefer DL's service in Biz over AF. AF has no pre-departure service, angled lie flats with no plans to replace them (at least DL is actively installing real lie-flats and direct aisle access at all seats), and very poor service from flight attendants (on trip from LAX to CDG one beverage service from a cart 45 minutes after take off, one food/beverage from a cart another 45 minutes later and then no more service until pre-landing meal unless you ring call button - which they don't like).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
but what is the point of DL taking these routes?

As mentioned earlier the AS relationship makes the flight more viable and AF doesn't have 767-300 which is cheaper to operate for total trip costs over AF's bigger aircraft.

[Edited 2011-11-04 19:27:02]
 
blueman87
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:17 am

I would prefer delta anyday than AF there is more room on DL AF I am packed in like sardines
B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
 
AeroWesty
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 11):
Obviously you haven't flown on the referb 767's

Let's not jump the gun. The trade-off is that until DL can guarantee the route will be flown by a plane with a true lie-flat Business Class that beats Affaires, the AF plane can still be considered an overall better choice due to Premium Voyageur vs. Economy Comfort.
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usdcaguy
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 26):

As mentioned earlier the AS relationship makes the flight more viable and AF doesn't have 767-300 which is cheaper to operate for total trip costs over AF's bigger aircraft.

Can someone with the appropriate knowledge comment on this? I find it to be a very confounding issue. If the 767s are supposed to be so cost effective, why is it that most European carriers have gotten rid of theirs while so many American carriers still have them? Also, what will happen now that Boeing no longer makes 767s? Is the 787 supposed to be as cheap to operate? Is the A332 a viable substitute? Delta's long-haul fleet seems heavily reliant upon the economics of the 767, and I can't see anything but cuts to their network if an economical replacement isn't found within the next 10-12 years.

[Edited 2011-11-04 19:50:51]
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:47 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 26):

I think it depends on whether you're flying in the front or back of the plane. I much prefer DL's service in Biz over AF. AF has no pre-departure service, angled lie flats with no plans to replace them (at least DL is actively installing real lie-flats and direct aisle access at all seats), and very poor service from flight attendants (on trip from LAX to CDG one beverage service from a cart 45 minutes after take off, one food/beverage from a cart another 45 minutes later and then no more service until pre-landing meal unless you ring call button - which they don't like).

Odd, on my CDG to LAX the FAs came around every 30 mins or so in Affaires to check on passengers and refill empty wine glasses. Plus they set up the buffet for those who want something (including more wine).

Rumor is La Premiere and Affaires are getting entirely new products in 2013. The NEV4 seat currently being installed in Affaires will only be installed in new builds whereas older NEV3 may receive an upgrade to NEV3.5 in the interim. Of course, nothing is official.

I fly both AF and DL often and they both have their pluses and minuses in terms of service.
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laca773
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):
Evidtently you haven't been on one of my flights either,
Quoting toobz (Reply 22):
I think DL has potential to do better. DL has been doing very well on intl flights out of SEA as well as PDX. I say it's here to stay.
And in reference to AF service being better than DL..that's debatable. I find DL to have some of the better crews. AF is robotic. And they never smile.

It is true, DL has made large cutbacks in the past when they went through bankruptcy. HOWEVER, they are trying really hard to put their customers first in many ways. Most importantly, to offer a better and nicer inflight experience compared to their U.S. domestic counterparts, whom, for the most part, offer an even more outdated product, rude and ambivalent cabin crews and do you really want to go their with me or anyone else about their crappy, cheap and skimpy catering? I think not. DL has been doing a lot of work on their inflight product and they can't do things like I Dream of Jeanie did when she crossed her arms and blinked her eyes and snapped her neck!! Things take time and they are making an honest effort.

Compared to AF, the only area where AF really wins hands down is in the area of catering. AF has always offered great inflight service on all their longhaul flights. DL did too and they are slowly upgrading that (I'm sure many of you can remember having steak for dinner on a midcon, LAX-ATL, transcon JFK-LAX and even LAX-PVR/MEX in economy. Their flight crews are professional for the most part, but you will not see the warm, friendly, welcoming...personalities DL crews have for the most part. Their ticket counter and gate personnel is among the worst @ CDG. I don't know if that's a cultural thing, but it's unacceptable. DL could really teach AF a thing or two about manners to their employees who actually pay their salaries when it comes to the bottom line. Luckily, here in the U.S. AF has DL handle the majority of their flights.

I wish DL the best of luck in this new market for them. One thing I could see them doing is trying to keep the inflight product close to the same AF offered by starting their new flight with similar inflight offerings
 
wedgetail737
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 18):
AF allows checking in of 2 bags free to India from US. That was one of the reasons for me to choose either BA or AF for flights to India. Now, I am left with just BA I guess with EK starting service to SEA from march, I can look at it too. But I wonder how easy it would be to travel non-stop for 15 hours with a toddler, compared to 10 hrs on BA/AF

Don't forget that LH flies daily to FRA.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 20):
SEA-PEK is blocked over 12 hours and one of the longest 767 routes and DL is going up against Hainan's brand new A330s yet is still flying the route.

I'd imagine Hainan obtains the majority of its business from Asian travel agencies and those seasoned travelers who prefer international airlines than US domestic airlines for their Asian travel. Secondly, Hainan's schedule allows for same-day connections to other destinations.

DL's schedule does not allow for same-day connections beyond PEK. But DL does have the benefit of AS connections. Of course, I'm sure Hainan gets some connection traffic as well.

As a spotter, I'm sorry to see AF leave, but we are getting EK. DL taking over AF might open a S-concourse gate at an optimum part of the day for another international carrier.

AF...sorry to see you leave the SEA-CDG market. DL...good luck on the new international route and expanding your international presence out of SEA.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 29):
Also, what will happen now that Boeing no longer makes 767s?

Is the 767 line shut down?

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 29):
and I can't see anything but cuts to their network if an economical replacement isn't found within the next 10-12 years.

I thought they deferred the 787 orders until 2020?? Isn't that within the next 10-12 years? I'm sure if DL needs them earlier, a way could be found to get DL in the mix before then. I think DL's idea, right now, is to refurbish the fleet they have while paying down the debt they have.....THEN they can start to think about new widebodies.
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vincewy
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 am

What other routes could be switched to DL in the future? DTW? I'll be bummed out if this happens. Many in DTW miss the old days with KL metals, but obviously they haven't tried both AF/KL in 777.

AF isn't always preferred over DL for me, my preference goes like this when flying economy TATL

AF A380 -> AF A340 -> AF A330 -> DL A330 -> DL 767 -> AF744 -> AF 777

This isn't a knock on Boeing but the fact they put in 10 seats a row, I'll choose space over anything else.

[Edited 2011-11-04 22:11:57]
 
panamair
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
the AF plane can still be considered an overall better choice due to Premium Voyageur vs. Economy Comfort.

PV is also an entirely separate fare class that can cost hundreds of dollars more than a seat in EC. EC is basically FREE to high-level elite flyers and at a 25-50% discount for lower-level elite flyers; PV is NOT free to anyone except in oversold situations.

E.g., JFK-CDG in January costs around $1500 all-in for AF or DL in Premium Voyageur on AF metal OR
$850 all-in for DL or AF in regular Economy on DL metal ($850 all-in for Diamonds/Platinums/Flying Blue Plats in Economy Comfort on DL metal) or around $1150-$1200 all-in for a non-status flyer in Economy Comfort.
 
panamair
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:09 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 29):
Can someone with the appropriate knowledge comment on this? I find it to be a very confounding issue. If the 767s are supposed to be so cost effective, why is it that most European carriers have gotten rid of theirs while so many American carriers still have them?

It's not just the aircraft choice; overall, DL has lower costs than AF, including labor, aircraft ownership/leasing costs, etc. AF is not doing well financially and are running into headwinds trying to cut costs (most recent cabin crew strikes due to their efforts to cut one flight attendant position from the A319, for example). Since DL and AF have a metal-neutral JV, AF benefits as well from DL's lower costs....

Quoting laca773 (Reply 31):
I wish DL the best of luck in this new market for them.

As it is a JV, it is not really a new market. The route will still leverage the AFKL European point-of-sale, existing corporate relationships, etc.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
but whatever happened to PHL/PIT-CDG? AF gave it to DL and I guess it was so bad DL dropped it too.

PHL/PIT-CDGs - seasonal suspensions; both scheduled to resume in late March 2012.
 
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fxramper
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:12 am

Delta Dartboard, yes. This route wont last a year unless they enjoy sitting on massive losses to keep a peg on the map.   
 
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mayor
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:17 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 37):
This route wont last a year unless they enjoy sitting on massive losses to keep a peg on the map.

Might do better than you thought, considering what was mentioned before about AS having better reciprocal FF rules with DL than they do with AF.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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fxramper
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 38):
Might do better than you thought, considering what was mentioned before about AS having better reciprocal FF rules with DL than they do with AF.


FF mile agreements account for less than 8% of total revenues on all US flagged carriers.   
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:41 am

Glad to see a PMNW station get a CDG flight. Why (for the most part) do PMDL stations usually get a CDG flight and PMNW stations usually get an AMS flight? Coincidence?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:06 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
Glad to see a PMNW station get a CDG flight. Why (for the most part) do PMDL stations usually get a CDG flight and PMNW stations usually get an AMS flight? Coincidence?

Probably something to do with the staffing situations at different stations. The PMNW staff are accustomed to working with KL (AMS) and the PMDL stations have been DL stations for some time...DL has a number of stations supporting one Europe service and given that AMS and CDG both offer considerable connection opportunities (that is, they could go either way with the current DL/AF/KL arrangement), they probably differ to the side of the company that has the most local experience. Pure speculation on my part, but I think the fact that most of the CDG flights are DL and most of the AMS flights are PMNW adds some credibility.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 37):
Delta Dartboard, yes. This route wont last a year unless they enjoy sitting on massive losses to keep a peg on the map.

Really??? AF has hung in there for the last several years during an unprecedented growth in SEA-Europe service. DL only stands to do better given their much cozier relationship with AS. I seriously doubt that AF handed this over to DL without an assumption that they'll retain a fair quantity of connection pax via CDG...there was a lot of talk about SEA being on AF's shortlist of desired destinations when they launched service, I really don't think they'd hand the route over to DL if there was nothing in it for them. Keep in mind that this keeps SkyTeam's foot squarely in the SEA-Europe market for the foreseeable future and that DL may continue expanding their long-haul presence here...I doubt the focus will be on Europe, but a handful of European routes on DL can't hurt the local FF base. Cue another "DL to buy AS?"
thread...now...

Again, I'll miss the AF flights and am saddened that I only got to fly them on LAX-CDG. Their switch to the A340 as of late brought some nice variety to the local scene, but I suspect this will be the right call when all is said and done.
 
dolphinflyer
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:47 am

Would be nice if AF shifted the SEA aircraft over to start flying CDG-YVR! Better yet, start flying CDG-YVR-PPT, v.v.  
 
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RWA380
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:19 am

Since DL & AS are tied in, there would be no reason for DL to operate a PDX-SEA-PDX flight again? I'd love to have a jet option once again on the route. Even if it were a CRJ
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
AeroWesty
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:53 am

Quoting panamair (Reply 35):
PV is also an entirely separate fare class that can cost hundreds of dollars more than a seat in EC. EC is basically FREE to high-level elite flyers and at a 25-50% discount for lower-level elite flyers; PV is NOT free to anyone except in oversold situations.

PV is a better product than EC, there's no denying that. Better things in life do cost money! If you simply want extra legroom in Economy, AF has exit row seating just like every other airline.
International Homo of Mystery
 
wedgetail737
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:06 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 33):
Is the 767 line shut down?

No...the 767 line still moving right along...producing mainly 767-300F's and soon KC-46A's.
 
jfk777
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 2):
Question: 763 or A332 on the route?

I would assume not a 777. DL would be better off putting a 77L on the SLC-CDG route for SLC takeoff performance reasons.

SEA to CDG would probably be a 767.

SLC to CDG is a 767, DL doesn't have lots of 777( 18) lying around to fly such secondary routes as Salt Lake to CDG. The 777 fly to Asia, Australia, South Africa, and Dubai.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 11):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):

That's the problem, first it's a huge step back service wise between Air France and a DL 763. Second the record is not good as pointed out, the service downgrade does not help generate excitement over the changes. The benefit is DL's costs are cheaper, the downside is DL's product is cheaper.

Obviously you haven't flown on the referb 767's

That's one of my biggest complaints with DL. You simply do not know what to expect as far as inflight service. On AF I knew it would be either an A330 or A340 and knew exactly what to expect regarding inflight service, e.g. seats with adjustable headrests, individual AVOD, menus, amenity kits, good catering. My DL flights were like a crapshoot, I never knew what to expect. Only once I had all the above on a DL flight and that was a B757 from FRA-JFK.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 31):
DL has been doing a lot of work on their inflight product and they can't do things like I Dream of Jeanie did when she crossed her arms and blinked her eyes and snapped her neck!! Things take time and they are making an honest effort.

Well, I've been waiting 5-6 years now and haven't experienced one yet. Maybe the routes I fly DUS-ATL & FRA-ATL aren't worthy of DL's premium planes yet.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 17):
Remember, I never said that the service was "superior", your words, I just stated that you haven't flown on the new
referb 767. I find it funny that you say the Delta service is ""cheaper", again your words, and you haven't even flown
the product.

See my comments above. I've flown both many times and in my opinion DL isn't anywhere near AF in inflight service and despite what many are saying I don't see it happening any time soon.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 25):
The AF in-flight experience was OK but very robotic. I'll take Delta's more friendly service any day especially with the new cabins.

In my opinion I think its a cultural perception. I know many Americans really like the way DL's ATL gals gush in their Southern hospitality; however, to many Europeans it comes across as superficial and phony. On the other hand what Americans perceive as being "snooty/unfriendly/robotic" is more likely seen as the norm to French/European travelers.
A330 man.
 
sxf24
Posts: 595
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 37):
Delta Dartboard, yes. This route wont last a year unless they enjoy sitting on massive losses to keep a peg on the map.

This isn't a new route for Delta. As part of the TATL JV, Delta has effectively been flying this route for some time - with an AF aircraft. This is no different then any of the other equipment changes that have taken place between DL/AF/KL (and NW/KL before it). I wouldn't be surprised to see AF pick up another ATL flight to offset this change.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 47):
That's one of my biggest complaints with DL. You simply do not know what to expect as far as inflight service. On AF I knew it would be either an A330 or A340 and knew exactly what to expect regarding inflight service, e.g. seats with adjustable headrests, individual AVOD, menus, amenity kits, good catering. My DL flights were like a crapshoot, I never knew what to expect.

Apparently you missed the memo. You know, the one where DL is spending large amounts of money to refurbish the fleet and update the interiors. Now, you've got to remember that it doesn't happen overnight, but, IIRC, they said it would be done by the end of 2013.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen