irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:51 am

Hi all,

I've been pondering on this topic for awhile. Why don't most Eastern European carriers operate long haul routes?

I can think of a few airlines that don't have long haul routes at the moment.

Malev
Belavia
TAROM
Adria
Air Baltic
CSA
Bulgaria Air
Croatia Airlines
and others....

Now I understand that some of these carriers are plagued by economic difficulties and that most of the international traffic is made through major connecting carriers (LH, AF, KL, etc)

Also I understand that the economic downturn has taken its toll on the industry and that the population of certain countries isn't that high but there are travelers that may prefer long haul direct flights. For example, I would assume that direct flights between (at least) JFK and the capital cities of Eastern European countries may attract some demand.

So besides these difficulties, what else prevents Eastern European carriers from developing healthy long haul routes from their respective hubs? Is price competitiveness an issue?

Please discuss  
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:17 am

Well, I can speak for traffic going westward to the Americas. Most Eastern European countries do not have heavy ties to the US/Canada/Mexico like Western Europe does. Some of this can be taken back to Cold War Era politics and ideologies. Economic downturn aside, many of these cities' populations do not warrant the cost of a longhaul route to the Americas. Remember that some of these flights from these countries are 3-4 hours longer than flights from Western Europe to the US East coast. These are long and thin routes that require an aircraft the size of a 757, but the 757 doesn't have the range to do these flights.

Western Europe has also had a greater impact on global travel by having so many colonies across the globe which Eastern Europe did not. Many in Western Europe's population got dispersed very widespread throughout the world.

Factor in the above with everything you came up with, and I think you have your answer.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1366
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:18 am

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Now I understand that some of these carriers are plagued by economic difficulties and that most of the international traffic is made through major connecting carriers (LH, AF, KL, etc)

Also I understand that the economic downturn has taken its toll on the industry and that the population of certain countries isn't that high

I would guess you've answered your own question right here.

I mean, one could just as easily ask why you don't see nonstop flights from MKE or OMA or ABQ or BUF to Europe, rather than being routed through DTW, ORD, JFK, DFW, etc.

It's kinda the same question.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:20 am

Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe. The Eastern European countries did not have strong financial and manufacturing markets that exist in Western Europe. A simple look at the difference between Berlin and Frankfurt/Munich operations makes it pretty evident.

Secondly, the largest long haul market from Europe is North America. Eastern European carriers are at a disadvantage geographically as they are not likely to get as much connecting traffic.

Finally, many of the airlines are newer. The market is already established with western airlines. The cost associated with long haul flying is very very high. There have been few airlines outside of the Middle East starting long haul flights. The majority are short haul with long haul being the role of the incumbents.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:21 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):

You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

But your point is very interesting and it makes perfect sense. However many expatriates from East. European countries do live in other cities and they do come back to visit sometimes (speaking from personal experience).
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:24 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe.

Vienna has financial ties with some major world powers - I don't know if you consider it Eastern Europe but Austrian operates some heavy metal - 767s, 777s.

+ Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
adriaticflight
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:32 am

Interesting topic and you basically answered the question.

The populations of maybe "Eastern European" states is not very great which means that the physical number of travellers between say Ljubljana and New York per day is very small, imagine in the several dozens. Other cities such as Bucharest or Belgrade have greater demand but have other problems. We can look at each country/airline speratly:

CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

JAT - Massive financial troubles. Loss of the huge domestic market with the collapse of the former Yugoslavia. Jat has a terrible regional network these days that would have be be hugely increased to provide connecting traffic from the region.

Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

Croatia Airlines - Tiny market and very seasonal. The airline feeds very well into Lufthansa and partner's network.

Adria - Huge finacial troubles. Market that is so small as to be unable to demand twice daily flights to London let alone to America.

Air Baltic - money troubles galore but with perhaps the best connecting network of any airline in Eastern europe.

It all boils down to money. The transfer of money between 'far' away places and the capitals of Eastern Europe is not huge. The one-stop market serves them well. The exception is LOT which based on the huge Polish-American community have been able to maintain a presence in the long-haul market (with new aircraft on the way even!).
Its a shame but there will be no long-haul flights carried out by local airlines in the region for the long term.
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
The exception is LOT which based on the huge Polish-American community have been able to maintain a presence in the long-haul market (with new aircraft on the way even!).

Thanks for your post and I would like to add that Aerosvit of Ukraine also operates a nice long-haul network for a Eastern EU country - 9 B763ERs which is more than twice of LOTs long haul fleet.

Again - thanks for your airline breakdown.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
adriaticflight
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:39 am

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too

Russia and Ukraine are perhaps different markets than those of Eastern Europe. Especially as many of the airlines of the region are semi-privitised. Aeroflot is a legacy airline that serves the mega-city of Moscow. If you compare the number of long-haul flights from Moscow and London you can see the pattern people have been talking about. Moscow is bigger than London but has massively less flights due to location and also global connectivity facilitating one-stop flights to just about anywhere via the world's transit hubs.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5564
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:11 am

The business justification for long haul flights is either (1) business ties or (2) vacation travel.

The best positioned airlines and cities can feed both economic drivers.

Eastern Europe simply got into the game too late and geography is against them - as mentioned above.

Their 'long haul' traffic is to the sandy beaches of Africa or the Middle East. The laws have made a large number of small leisure focused semi-charter airlines viable. So the 'national' carriers do not pursue that market.

The business ties of Eastern Europe are with Western Europe, the Middle East and Russia and former Russia States.

This may change, but they will be fighting an up-hill battle trying to compete for TATL routes if their business ties go that way. I would personally expect to see more long-haul service grow out of Eastern Europe to Asia rather than the Americas.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2299
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:46 am

Interesting topic!

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

True, but that is a high-cost aircraft. The situation was made bleaker by the fact that they only operated two of them, driving the costs up.

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
Vienna has financial ties with some major world powers - I don't know if you consider it Eastern Europe but Austrian operates some heavy metal - 767s, 777s.

Austrian's long haul network used to be larger than it is now, mostly due to the geographical disadvantage faced by the carriers above. Economically, though Vienna is/has been considered "West," despite being geographically further East than Berlin and Prague. At the time, the best reference for determining who's who is probably Warsaw Pact vs. NATO. True, Austria and Switzerland were members of neither.

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
+ Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too.

Both carriers are based in Moscow. Moscow alone has a larger population than most of the countries in Eastern Europe (in the Eastern Bloc, only Ukraine, Poland, and Romania have larger populations than the City of Moscow). In a Soviet version of Delta Air Lines, a large percentage of Russian domestic flights begin or end at one of the Moscow airports, providing significant feed. That being said I don't see many people doing Vladivostok-Moscow-Tokyo...Moscow, obviously, was the economic capital of the USSR. Some of its economic advantage came at the expense of Eastern Europe. A lot of that wealth and industry was actually uprooted out of the former Satellite States and deposited directly into the Soviet Union.

[Edited 2011-11-05 19:47:33]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:17 am

Low yield, insanely seasonal and the airline's respective weak networks to offer connections. Also, demand is very concentrated to New York, which is often 40-50% the market. LA, Chicago and Miami also have good market size to many Eastern Europe capitals. So on the U.S. side, there isn't much feed to distribute to other cities. The market isn't small - pairs like LAXBUD, ORDPRG, MIAOTP are larger than many city pairs that currently have U.S.-Europe servic, but the yield sucks.
a.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:46 am

Just does not make financial sense to do so in many cases. The Odd route might work, but given the capital costs involved in having the right aircraft to operate such services, the equation changes.

With the amount of opttions via the bigger hubs, it adds more pressure on yields also.

In the end, even if theres a chance some might work, the reality is that after all costs are considered, year round operation would be extremely hard to see happening.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:01 am

The one city that I believe never had a n/s into the US is St. Petersburg. I always thought that at least a 3-4X weekly LED-JFK n/s could work, maybe with a 767, but not really ever to be seen. I've known quite a few Russians here in the US from that area, and they go back there on occasion, and I'm sure that there is a lot more.

And if we wait for Baltia (or whatever that airline is that's been wanting to start up Eastern Europe with 747s for the last 20 years or so....) I don't think we'll ever see it.

Might this be a city that could work well into/out of JFK?

[Edited 2011-11-05 23:02:40]
 
LJ
Posts: 4113
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:37 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 13):
The one city that I believe never had a n/s into the US is St. Petersburg.

Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Pulkovo wanted to fly LED-JFK (with a 747) but these flights never materialized.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe. The Eastern European countries did not have strong financial and manufacturing markets that exist in Western Europe. A simple look at the difference between Berlin and Frankfurt/Munich operations makes it pretty evident.

Agreed.

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

Yes, I believe they abandoned JFK about 3 or 4 years ago.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

The "OK" Jet (Ilyushin IL-62Ms). Served JFK and YUL. AC a long time ago flew into PRG weekly with DC-8s, ex YUL via FRA.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

I thought Tarom had a limited service to JFK but, like MA, gave it up several years ago as too high cost.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 4119
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:21 am

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

JAT - Massive financial troubles. Loss of the huge domestic market with the collapse of the former Yugoslavia. Jat has a terrible regional network these days that would have be be hugely increased to provide connecting traffic from the region.

Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

Croatia Airlines - Tiny market and very seasonal. The airline feeds very well into Lufthansa and partner's network.

Adria - Huge finacial troubles. Market that is so small as to be unable to demand twice daily flights to London let alone to America.

Air Baltic - money troubles galore but with perhaps the best connecting network of any airline in Eastern europe.

B&H Airlines ( Bosnia and Herzegovina ) - Small country, tiny market and small airline with only on Airbus 319 and two ATR 72 ( + 2 smaller aircraft for domestic use ). Only flies between Sarajevo and Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Zurich, Istandbul and Banja Luka. Owned 49 % by Turkish Airlines ). With their connection with Turkish Airlines, I guess they don't need a longhaul of their own ... The country obviously have some way to go and alot of building up to do still due to the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%26H_Airlines

[Edited 2011-11-06 01:22:57]
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3270
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 am

We can really add Austrian airlines to that list. They really don't offer too much long distance service either especially when you factor in how affluent Austria is. I think it just comes down to economics and location is the biggest factor in it.

Cities like LHR, CDG, AMS, MAD can handle all of these connections just fine so there will always be heavy competition and price pressure. Eastern Europe requires larger planes and they dont get the connection huge additional passengers the western european ones get. Plus we have seen alot of those airlines jump into alliances that can offer alot of help to these airlines and its frequent flyers.
 
RIXrat
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:31 am

Speaking of Latvia, the now defunct American Trans Air (ATA) tried a JFK-RIX service in the early 90s and it failed, I think, within a year using L-1011s. It was a pet project of the Latvian-born founder of ATA, but apparently he nixed the bean counters who told him that Latvians, just emerging from the Soviet Union, could not afford to fly to NYC, and the plane could not be filled up with ex-pats coming to RIX to visit relatives. So, they continued flying U.S. troops.

On the other hand, RIX still has long haul connections via a direct flight on Uzbekistan Airways (HY) which makes a pit stop in RIX from Tashkent to JFK. I've tried to access their web site several times, but I've given up in frustration in finding anything meaningful. They fly 767s to JFK and may refuel in Shannon. Can't seem to get that information.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:37 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Really? I'm curious here, and any more details, like what years, or how long it lasted? I'm trying to find DL 90s route maps - no luck yet - and see when and how this was, but...... Was this n/s from JFK, or was there an intermediary stop? Any reason as to why it was discontinued?

Any info appreciated please.

ty


 
 
klwright69
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:39 am

I recall in the late 80's JAT used the PA WorldPort JFK terminal for their JFK flights. My PA 727 to Denver was parked by the JAT DC10.

In the 90's TAROM served JFK, and I had the choice to take them on my trip to Turkey. Too bad I didn't in hindsight.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
Low yield, insanely seasonal and the airline's respective weak networks to offer connections. Also, demand is very concentrated to New York, which is often 40-50% the market. LA, Chicago and Miami also have good market size to many Eastern Europe capitals. So on the U.S. side, there isn't much feed to distribute to other cities. The market isn't small - pairs like LAXBUD, ORDPRG, MIAOTP are larger than many city pairs that currently have U.S.-Europe servic, but the yield sucks.

I like MAH's above response and think it is right on. I actually do think there is a decent market between the USA and Eastern Europe.

I think one of the most significant reasons is that these eastern European airlines just do not have the resources to maintain a substantial long-haul fleet. The do not offer enough practical connections on the eastern end. Then would these long haul routes make them money year round? Given the yields it's even more not worth it. As I stated above, some of these old eastern European airlines have already been there and done that. The prestige of all of them having a sole JFK flight is not worth the cost.

Having flown between the middle east and USA several times, we always fly over eastern Europe. Strictly geographically speaking eastern Europe does work as a connection to certain locations. I guess it was just never capitalized on early enough. Turkish has most certainly capitalized on geographic location to leverage their market position.

[Edited 2011-11-06 01:51:55]
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:48 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Well, I can speak for traffic going westward to the Americas. Most Eastern European countries do not have heavy ties to the US/Canada/Mexico like Western Europe does. Some of this can be taken back to Cold War Era politics and ideologies. Economic downturn aside, many of these cities' populations do not warrant the cost of a longhaul route to the Americas. Remember that some of these flights from these countries are 3-4 hours longer than flights from Western Europe to the US East coast. These are long and thin routes that require an aircraft the size of a 757, but the 757 doesn't have the range to do these flights.

I would not be so sure that many Eastern European countries do not have close ties with the United States. If they didn't then there would not be a missile shield in Romania, huge military base in Hungary... Then there is the traditional, and probably one of the closest allies of the US in Europe, Poland. One should not forget the Baltics as well, then again Riga is connected to New York thanks to Uzbekistan Airlines.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):

Secondly, the largest long haul market from Europe is North America. Eastern European carriers are at a disadvantage geographically as they are not likely to get as much connecting traffic.

Disadvantaged if they were to offer Paris-Budapest-New York flighs, however airline like Lot offer Belgrade-Warsaw-Chicago and they are becoming quite successful at it.
That's like saying that Turkish Airlines is at a disadvantage because of its geographical locations. Eastern European airlines are at a greater advantage when it comes to offering connections from the Middle East and eastern Mediterranan for example. Many airline do it, if I am not mistaken Malev was one of the first airlines to return to Libya.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Finally, many of the airlines are newer.

Yes, very new:
Adria: 1961
Tarom: 1920
Jat: 1927
Lot: 1929
CSA: 1920
Malev: 1946

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Well Malev still today has a huge regional network however the main difference that it feeds American Airlines' flights from Budapest to New York. They have some rather competitive prices such as BUD-JFK for less than €400.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 16):
B&H Airlines ( Bosnia and Herzegovina ) - Small country, tiny market and small airline with only on Airbus 319 and two ATR 72 ( + 2 smaller aircraft for domestic use ).

B&H Airlines is a joke of an airline. They have parked one of their Atrs and they are launching Sarajevo-Banja Luka-Copenhagen on their Atr, this means that the passengers from Sarajevo will take 03:30 to reach their destination.
Same with Amsterdam, I think one flight in the week is operated using the Atr, 03:30 flight!


This past summer there was a charter airline that wanted to operate Chicago-Belgrade (to Zagreb) flights on board a B767-200. Flights were supposed to be operated once a week. Even before the flights started 66% of the capacity has been sold out. At one point they considered operating flights in winter with a B757-200 with a stop in Ireland.
There is growing demand but it will take some time before normal flights can be established to the vast majority of cities across Eastern Europe.
 
tpaewr
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:50 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 19):
Really? I'm curious here, and any more details, like what years, or how long it lasted? I'm trying to find DL 90s route maps - no luck yet - and see when and how this was, but...... Was this n/s from JFK, or was there an intermediary stop? Any reason as to why it was discontinued?

Any info appreciated please

As I recall it was a FRA based 72S
 
ZKCIF
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:18 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:06 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
B&H Airlines is a joke of an airline. They have parked one of their Atrs and they are launching Sarajevo-Banja Luka-Copenhagen on their Atr, this means that the passengers from Sarajevo will take 03:30 to reach their destination.
Same with Amsterdam, I think one flight in the week is operated using the Atr, 03:30 flight!

1. Many potential fliers may be price-sensitive.
2. it is still MUCH faster than any connecting flights

i would fly it, definitely
 
LazialeMKD
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:47 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:23 am

From my point of view, I think that there are too many airlines, and the market is too small for them. I'll take EX-YU region as an example. If all the airlines based there, merge in one airline, choose one hub (as it was the old JAT), and create one good network in SE Europe, there will be enough traffic to serve at least JFK, ORD and YYZ.
 
LJ
Posts: 4113
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):

Same with Amsterdam, I think one flight in the week is operated using the Atr, 03:30 flight!

They don't fly to AMS anymore (no flights during Winter 2011, but they'll be back for Summer 2012)

Quoting point2point (Reply 19):

Really? I'm curious here, and any more details, like what years, or how long it lasted? I'm trying to find DL 90s route maps - no luck yet - and see when and how this was, but...... Was this n/s from JFK, or was there an intermediary stop? Any reason as to why it was discontinued?

From a google search I discovered it was a JFK-HEL-LED flight operated by the L1011. It operated at least in 1994.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
Vienna has financial ties with some major world powers - I don't know if you consider it Eastern Europe but Austrian operates some heavy metal - 767s, 777s.

I think most Austrians would consider themselves „Western European“ or „Central European.“ We speak a West European (not Slavic or Magyar) Language.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
We can really add Austrian airlines to that list. They really don't offer too much long distance service either especially when you factor in how affluent Austria is. I think it just comes down to economics and location is the biggest factor in it.

OS has service to IAD, JFK, YYZ, PEK, BKK, NRT... Besides with ZRH and MUC a short train away from the western parts of the country or 1 hour flight and FRA and DUS having strong links to SZG, LNZ, VIE, etc, there is not a lot of need. It is often easier or cheaper to just fly to Germany and connect with LH or Star.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6874
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:59 pm

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
I've been pondering on this topic for awhile. Why don't most Eastern European carriers operate long haul routes?

Do you really have to ask?  
Go back just 20 and some odd years in time and you'll have your answer. For years these countries where trapped behind the iron curtain and their people forbbiden from traveling freely. These countries were left in economic ruin. By contrast the western European airlines were building up their hubs and networks and buying more capable Boeing and Airbus aircraft. When the Soviet Union collapsed, it was too easy for the western European carriers to fill the void in the East.
 
Akiestar
Posts: 818
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:13 pm



Quoting LazialeMKD (Reply 24):
From my point of view, I think that there are too many airlines, and the market is too small for them. I'll take EX-YU region as an example. If all the airlines based there, merge in one airline, choose one hub (as it was the old JAT), and create one good network in SE Europe, there will be enough traffic to serve at least JFK, ORD and YYZ.

Something tells me that political reasons will prevent this from happening. National airlines after all are extensions of national identity in many countries, and although it makes good business sense to merge the national carriers of the former Yugoslavia into a single airline, it might be hard to sell the idea that a big Serbia-based airline for the entire Balkans (save Albania) is better than an individual airline for Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, et al.

[Edited 2011-11-06 05:32:52]
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):

Totally agree with your whole response.

I think at one point MA was trying to get some A330s but Airbus declined to sell because of the price MA was offering. I can't seem to find the article now  

I believe that Eastern Europe has long haul potential and its not being filled by national carriers... which is a shame.

Quoting point2point (Reply 13):
And if we wait for Baltia (or whatever that airline is that's been wanting to start up Eastern Europe with 747s for the last 20 years or so....) I don't think we'll ever see it.

I also see Baltia Airlines as a complete failure. Two fuel guzzling B747-200s isn't that smart.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
luckyone
Posts: 2299
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting lows (Reply 26):
I think most Austrians would consider themselves „Western European“ or „Central European.“ We speak a West European (not Slavic or Magyar) Language.

True, but you speak it in the most delightfully maddening accent, for those of us taught Hochdeustch at least  
Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Go back just 20 and some odd years in time and you'll have your answer. For years these countries where trapped behind the iron curtain and their people forbbiden from traveling freely. These countries were left in economic ruin. By contrast the western European airlines were building up their hubs and networks and buying more capable Boeing and Airbus aircraft. When the Soviet Union collapsed, it was too easy for the western European carriers to fill the void in the East.

While I agree, I would like to point out that the Eastern European airlines were being equipped with Western equipment before the fall of the Iron Curtain. TAROM operated 707s in conjunction with the Il-62 from 1974 onwards. Romania was the least Soviet of the bunch, and tried to appease the Western governments slightly more. Malev acquired 737s in 1988. LOT acquired their first 767 in 1989. Lastly, Interflug brought in two A310's in the summer of '89.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
Well Malev still today has a huge regional network however the main difference that it feeds American Airlines' flights from Budapest to New York. They have some rather competitive prices such as BUD-JFK for less than €400.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
The market isn't small - pairs like LAXBUD, ORDPRG, MIAOTP are larger than many city pairs that currently have U.S.-Europe servic, but the yield sucks.

I'm asking simply because I don't know, but what are the PDEW for LAX-BUD, and ORD-PRG and MIA-OTP? At first glance those routes don't seem to be that big at all, at least from the US origin. There are about 5,000 Romanian speakers in South Florida (though it goes up in the winter), about the same number of Czechs in Chicagoland, and approximately 10,000 Hungarian speakers in LA. To put in perspective, there are over 150,000 Polish speakers in Chicago, a market which sees services to Poland.
 
LazialeMKD
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:47 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:32 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
For years these countries where trapped behind the iron curtain and their people forbbiden from traveling freely.

Not according to my parents, and many other people living in Ex-Yugoslavia. Back then, they didn't need visa for almost everywhere around the globe, if they had Yugoslav passport.
Compared to than, now most of the people out of EU (not that many, honestly) feel that they are being trapped behind iron curtain, althoug we don't need visa anymore for EU countries (except UK), but that wasn't a case few years ago, when we needed a visa for whole EU.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
buying more capable Boeing and Airbus aircraft

Don't forget that JAT was first European airline to purchase B733.
 
adriaticflight
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:43 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:33 pm

In the 1980s Airlines were supported by their socialist government. Some got cheap aircraft from the USSR or in Yugoslavia's case from Boeing. But they had strong state structures behind them. Nowadays it doesn;t look good for the state to help pay for an airline to fly longhaul with no economic benefit.
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:35 pm

Noticed a mistake in the title - Carriers* maybe a moderator can fix it?
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
luckyone
Posts: 2299
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:00 pm

Quoting LazialeMKD (Reply 31):
Not according to my parents, and many other people living in Ex-Yugoslavia. Back then, they didn't need visa for almost everywhere around the globe, if they had Yugoslav passport.

Yugoslavia was the exception to the rule. It was not a Warsaw Pact member, and fostered a working relationship with the "West." The rest of the gang (especially the Soviet Union, which for decades outright forbade emigration) had policies designed to keep their respective populations IN. The erection of the Berlin Wall was the most visible of these measures (note the infamous death strip faced East). They had very complex, onerous, and convoluted processes for receiving Exit Visas. These processes had no set time frame for completion.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 32):
In the 1980s Airlines were supported by their socialist government. Some got cheap aircraft from the USSR or in Yugoslavia's case from Boeing. But they had strong state structures behind them. Nowadays it doesn;t look good for the state to help pay for an airline to fly longhaul with no economic benefit.

I will go one step further, and say that the respective airlines were extensions of the state.

[Edited 2011-11-06 06:01:17]
 
transaeroyyz
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:23 pm

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:10 pm

irshava, i've heard rumors that when Lviv LWO finishes terminal renovations including runway lengthening VV wants to fly to YYZ with 767, as there is a hudge western-uki pop here, I can totally see this as there many connecetions through kbp, vie, waw, fra, ams, mos. can anybody confirm, thx
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 2869
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Aeroflot flew LED-JFK in the 90's and early 2000s with an A310 and then a 763. Obviously they no longer fly the route.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 23):
1. Many potential fliers may be price-sensitive.
2. it is still MUCH faster than any connecting flights

i would fly it, definitely

Well with Malev offering fast connections in Budapest and a more comfortable flight I am sure that not many people would opt for JA.

Quoting LJ (Reply 25):

They don't fly to AMS anymore (no flights during Winter 2011, but they'll be back for Summer 2012)

They did but they are resuming three weekly flights from December 15.
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 35):

Hey - thanks for the info - It would be great - I live about 300-375 KM from LWO so that's great news. Hopefully its true.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 35):
irshava, i've heard rumors that when Lviv LWO finishes terminal renovations including runway lengthening VV wants to fly to YYZ with 767, as there is a hudge western-uki pop here, I can totally see this as there many connecetions through kbp, vie, waw, fra, ams, mos. can anybody confirm, thx

I suppose that it would be added once a week on the already existing KBP-YYZ...
 
filipair
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 7):
Thanks for your post and I would like to add that Aerosvit of Ukraine also operates a nice long-haul network for a Eastern EU country - 9 B763ERs which is more than twice of LOTs long haul fleet.

Again - thanks for your airline breakdown.

Ukraine's longhaul position is perhaps unique because Ukrainian citizens do not have visa-free access to Western European hubs. Further, LOT at one point had 5 763's and 2 762's. Now they're down to 4 763's plus one out of service due to the landing incident in WAW. However, LOT is expecting the delivery of 8 788's within the next two years and has been in a state of limbo as far as longhaul goes, other than shedding their 762's. Either way, both countries are promising markets.

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 35):
irshava, i've heard rumors that when Lviv LWO finishes terminal renovations including runway lengthening VV wants to fly to YYZ with 767, as there is a hudge western-uki pop here, I can totally see this as there many connecetions through kbp, vie, waw, fra, ams, mos. can anybody confirm, thx

As much as it pains me, TATL flights from regional cities (read: non-capital/hub) probably aren't going to be profitable. ORD-KRK was a godsend but the hugely seasonal VFR traffic is also highly price-sensitive and the multitude of other connecting opportunities makes the route marginal and potentially a waste of the airline's time. Basically, it dilutes the airline's core market - which probably weakens it. And LWO-YYZ has the same dna as KRK-ORD or RZE-NYC, routes which LO terminated last year. At the same time, I hope that VV can make it work!

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Secondly, the largest long haul market from Europe is North America. Eastern European carriers are at a disadvantage geographically as they are not likely to get as much connecting traffic.
Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
Disadvantaged if they were to offer Paris-Budapest-New York flighs, however airline like Lot offer Belgrade-Warsaw-Chicago and they are becoming quite successful at it.
That's like saying that Turkish Airlines is at a disadvantage because of its geographical locations.
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 22):
Having flown between the middle east and USA several times, we always fly over eastern Europe. Strictly geographically speaking eastern Europe does work as a connection to certain locations. I guess it was just never capitalized on early enough. Turkish has most certainly capitalized on geographic location to leverage their market position.

The ideal strategy for Central and Eastern European airlines will be leverage their geographic position to serve TATL connections to places east and south (including Asia) while also building longhaul routes to Asia where they are, in fact, in a position to serve as a connecting hubs.

For example, LOT's WAW-HAN is a very unique, highly-successful route and the airline will be smart to continue to build it's niche but also revamp its image to attract higher yield traffic, much of which will have to be accomplished by its employees - including upper-management - changing their collective attitude.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:59 pm

Quoting Filipair (Reply 40):
but also revamp its image to attract higher yield traffic

Well the changes that will be implemented with the introduction of the B787 definetly show that the airline is moving in the right direction.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:00 pm

Prior to the fall of the Berlin wall there were a a lot of long haul flights from Eastern European capitals to the US and New York in particular. Balkan to SOF, JAT to BEG and ZAG, TAROM to OTP, CSA to PRG, LOT to WAW and KRK, Malev to BUD, Aeroflot to SVO and LED.. After the fall of the Communist governments in these nations the government subsidies dried up for the airlines and so did a lot of the service. If it doesn't make money, it doesn't happen in this era.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 30):
I'm asking simply because I don't know, but what are the PDEW for LAX-BUD, and ORD-PRG and MIA-OTP? At first glance those routes don't seem to be that big at all, at least from the US origin. There are about 5,000 Romanian speakers in South Florida (though it goes up in the winter), about the same number of Czechs in Chicagoland, and approximately 10,000 Hungarian speakers in LA.

All between ~28 and ~60 PDEW when annualized (so actual PDEW during peak is higher). Bigger or around the size of plenty of markets with non-stops, like MEMAMS, MIALIS, ATLSVO and PDXFRA. Can't speak for Chicago and Los Angeles, but South Florida has large Hungarian and Romanian diaspora, but a lot of the demand to Miami and Californianis just driven by tourism. Eastern Europeaners love Miami and Southern California for their beaches and the way the cities are portrayed on television and movies, so it draws them in. MIABUD could pack a plane between December and April with zero trouble. ORDPRG would have no problem filling in the summer. Prague and Budapest also are popular with Americans during the summer.

Also, somewhat related, Belgrade has decent demand to cities all over the Midwest, including obviously ORD, but DTW and CLE too. It's one of CLE's biggest Europe markets.

If the Central European countries had any long-haul leisure airlines in the style of airberlin or Arkefly, I'd bet plenty of cities in the region would have links to California, Miami and New York, and maybe even Cleveland and the like, as Eastern European immigrants are more recent to the U.S. and more apt to travel back home than those from Western Europe.

[Edited 2011-11-06 13:21:09]
a.
 
c680
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:15 am

DL flys to both PRG and BUD, so I assume its not the traffic, but rather the health of the native carriers.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 44):

BUD is seasonal but I'm not sure about PRG.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
Tupolev160
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:07 pm

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:38 am

An interesting fact, JU used to operate an extensive long-haul network out of Belgrade.
Here is the list that includes all the terminated inter-continental destinations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_Airways_destinations
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
irshava
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:11 am

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 46):

Dyakuyu za information  

Very helpful.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
c680
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:19 am

Quoting irshava (Reply 45):
BUD is seasonal but I'm not sure about PRG.

Sorry, I was thinking about AA to BUD.

IIRC DL is year round to PRG.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
LO231
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:56 am

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):

Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too.

Poland being Central , not Eastern Europe geographically, don't forget them, they used IL62s long before 767s on US and Canada routes......

Quoting irshava (Reply 7):
Thanks for your post and I would like to add that Aerosvit of Ukraine also operates a nice long-haul network for a Eastern EU country - 9 B763ERs which is more than twice of LOTs long haul fleet.

Ukraine is not an EU country....

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

I flew one of the two daily WAW-FRA ( one was LED-WAW-FRA, another WAW-PRG-FRA) on DL's 72S, based in FRA after demise of PA....

Rgds
Piotr
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU

Who is online