bigbird
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When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:09 pm

Does anyone know when DL will start utilizing the new slots aquired from US in the famous "DCA/LGA" slot swap deal?
bigbird from georgia
 
boberito6589
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When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:34 pm

The deal is supposedly going to be complete sometime before the end of the year. The actually changing hands of slots is supposed to start I think in Mid 2012? I do know, and its been said here before that the slots are going to change hands in bunches instead of it all just changing one day. US has it's schedule at DCA ready to go..it's just a waiting game now...
 
D L X
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When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 1):
US has it's schedule at DCA ready to go..it's just a waiting game now...

Do you know a cite for this schedule at DCA? I'd love to check it out.
 
boberito6589
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When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:11 pm

Sadly, It isn't out for any one other than Route Planning in PHX.
 
D L X
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:30 pm

Is it still secret?

(Any chance we'll see DCA-AUS?)
 
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ERJ170
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
(Any chance we'll see DCA-AUS?)

I do believe AUS is outside the perimeter.. and as it is not a hub, I don't see how it can be added unless US is getting some outside perimeter slots (are those available)?

I am just wondering what routes are getting upguaged...
Aiming High and going far..
 
FutureUScapt
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting bigbird (Thread starter):
Does anyone know when DL will start utilizing the new slots aquired from US in the famous "DCA/LGA" slot swap deal?
Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 1):
The deal is supposedly going to be complete sometime before the end of the year. The actually changing hands of slots is supposed to start I think in Mid 2012? I do know, and its been said here before that the slots are going to change hands in bunches instead of it all just changing one day. US has it's schedule at DCA ready to go..it's just a waiting game now...

The auction will be held from Nov 14 - Nov 22 and the DOT expects that binding agreements between the buyer and seller will be reached no later than Dec 1st. From that point, the DOT has mandated that US/DL must wait 90 days before they can start using 50% of their new holdings and 210 days before they can use the remaining 50% of their holdings. With that in mind, it is likely that we will start to see the first group of new flights added in the March/April time frame with the remaining flights added in the June/July time frame.

Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
Is it still secret?

While US did announce what destinations they originally intended to add back in 2009, they made no such announcements during any of the subsequent revisions to the slot swap and have not publicly announced any details to date.

Quoting D L X (Reply 4):
(Any chance we'll see DCA-AUS?)

No. DCA-AUS falls outside of the perimeter, and while there is hope that amendments will be made to the rule so that more beyond perimeter flights/destinations can be added, there is currently no change to the status quo.
 
AmtrakGuy
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:47 pm

I *believe* Delta still own more slots at DCA and they're being rented out by other airlines. Does anyone know how many extra slots Delta still have after the swapped?

Because NWA used to have few more extra flights to MSP and DTW before the drop in air travelers. I was told NWA would restore most flights when economy gets better.

Will Delta give up all other routes they fly now beside ATL, MEM, MSP, LGA, BOS, and DTW? I flew DCA-TPA-DCA last fall on E90 -- flight was full -- me wonder if DL will continue some other routes bypassing their hubs?

Thanks in advance for any information.
 
D L X
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 6):
No. DCA-AUS falls outside of the perimeter,

Argh, you are correct. I mistakenly assumed that DCA-AUS was about the same distance as DCA-IAH, but alas, AUS is 65 miles outside the perimeter. I had forgotten that the perimeter was originally carefully chosen to benefit AA but screw Continental. Apparently, it was extended just enough to screw Austin.
 
FutureUScapt
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 7):
I *believe* Delta still own more slots at DCA and they're being rented out by other airlines. Does anyone know how many extra slots Delta still have after the swapped?
DL is not currently leasing out any slot pairs to other airlines. They currently have 100 slots pairs at DCA, which will fall to 50 slot pairs after the slot swap is implemented (42 pairs go to US, 8 pairs go to LCCs via the auction process).

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 7):
Because NWA used to have few more extra flights to MSP and DTW before the drop in air travelers. I was told NWA would restore most flights when economy gets better.

Will Delta give up all other routes they fly now beside ATL, MEM, MSP, LGA, BOS, and DTW? I flew DCA-TPA-DCA last fall on E90 -- flight was full -- me wonder if DL will continue some other routes bypassing their hubs?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Highly, highly unlikely - aside from the two AIR-21/Vision slots that are restricted to JAN and LEX - and here's why:

DL will be left with 50 flights at DCA. They must maintain their once-daily service to JAN, LEX, and SLC if they want to keep those slots so they have 47 slot pairs they can play around with. It's all but a certainty they won't tinker with the LGA Shuttle schedule (15x daily) and unlikely, IMO, that they'll touch the ATL schedule (16x daily), so that brings us down to 16 flights to split between CVG (currently 4x), DTW (8x), JFK (4x), MEM (3x), and MSP (6x). Even if they slightly reduce the ATL schedule to say 12x daily, that still leaves just 20 slot pairs to split between 5 cities. You have to imagine that they want to maintain a decent schedule to DTW and MSP so it's actually probably more likely that one of their secondary hub cities (or JFK) will be reduced/suspended than it is to see P2P service remain.

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):

Argh, you are correct. I mistakenly assumed that DCA-AUS was about the same distance as DCA-IAH, but alas, AUS is 65 miles outside the perimeter. I had forgotten that the perimeter was originally carefully chosen to benefit AA but screw Continental. Apparently, it was extended just enough to screw Austin.

Yes, unfortunately AUS and SAT are the closest logical choices that are just beyond the perimeter.

[Edited 2011-11-06 16:02:57]
 
deltairlines
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 9):
DL will be left with 50 flights at DCA. They must maintain their once-daily service to JAN, LEX, and SLC if they want to keep those slots so they have 47 slot pairs they can play around with. It's all but a certainty they won't tinker with the LGA Shuttle schedule (15x daily) and unlikely, IMO, that they'll touch the ATL schedule (16x daily), so that brings us down to 16 flights to split between CVG (currently 4x), DTW (8x), JFK (4x), MEM (3x), and MSP (6x). Even if they slightly reduce the ATL schedule to say 12x daily, that still leaves just 20 slot pairs to split between 5 cities. You have to imagine that they want to maintain a decent schedule to DTW and MSP so it's actually probably more likely that one of their secondary hub cities (or JFK) will be reduced/suspended than it is to see P2P service remain.

Wouldn't be shocked if it was 14x ATL, 15x LGA, 6x DTW, 4x MSP, 2x MEM, 4x JFK and 2x CVG. Go heavy on 757s to DTW/MSP to replace capacity with frequency reductions.
 
IADLHR
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:36 am

What about DL DCA-OMA? Is it safe to say that it will disappear?
 
rivervisual
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:24 am

Also, dont forget that the slots are not evenly split up. Delta can use more of their slots on weekdays and draw down service on the weekends.
 
staralliance85
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:19 am

I am curious to see what new routes Delta will start from their new LGA hub. I know JFK has a good amount of domestic flights but Delta's main focus at LGA is a domestic hub. I hope to see the following flights added out of LGA.

-Increased frequencies to FLL, PBI, MCO and TPA.

-MIA

-CLT

-PHX

- LAX

- SFO

-SEA


Having those popular flights out of LGA can draw in those UA/CO Newark customers who don't want to take a hike to JFK.
brad Fitzpatrick
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
-PHX

- LAX

- SFO

-SEA

These are outside the perimeter. Is DL inheriting any exemptions from US?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mariner
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:10 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Is DL inheriting any exemptions from US?

Is that even possible?

I thought the beyond perimeter slots were awarded to a specific airline for a specific route and could not be traded - but I could easily be wrong.

mariner
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PIEAvantiP180
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):

No they are not. DEN is the only city that has service outside the perimeter. And I believe DL will start DEN from LGA once the swap is complete. Along DEN I believe DFW, IAH/HOU, CLT, MIA, CLE, PIT will be among the big cities to draw in the corporate crowd along with many more smaller northeast and east coast cities.
 
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
Is that even possible?

I don't know actually. It would be an interesting scenario if US has a few exemptions and are closing their LGA hub, so would these exemptions just die off, does congress give them to someone else, or what?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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mariner
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 16):
I don't know actually. It would be an interesting scenario if US has a few exemptions and are closing their LGA hub, so would these exemptions just die off, does congress give them to someone else, or what?

When AA bought TWA, it didn't get TWA's LAX-DCA - as I recall that was put up for bid again (not money) and I believe Alaska got it.

mariner
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mayor
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:30 am

Lets not jump the gun on the DCA swaps just yet. IIRC, the DOJ is still investigating the anti-trust implications of that part of the swap, but they have given the go ahead on the LGA swaps.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):

That is correct for DCA but not LGA. LGA does not have any beyond perimeter exemptions besides DEN. The only reason DEN has service is because they were grandfathered in.
 
steex
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
I don't know actually. It would be an interesting scenario if US has a few exemptions and are closing their LGA hub, so would these exemptions just die off, does congress give them to someone else, or what?

There is no such thing as an LGA route exemption in the fashion that they exist at DCA. All airlines are free to operate any route withing the LGA perimeter (need for customs aside) as well as unlimited DEN-LGA-DEN service. Denver was grandfathered in because it already had LGA service at the time that the perimeter rule was enacted. PANYNJ has never indicated that it may institute further allowances for beyond-perimeter service.

The sole exception to the rule, of course, is Saturdays. There is no perimeter at LGA on Saturdays, but very few services have proven viable on a Saturday-only basis. DL has occasionally tinkered with Saturday-only LGA-SLC service with little success. The only current route I can think of that takes advantage of Saturday service is AA's seasonal LGA-EGE.
 
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mariner
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 20):
That is correct for DCA but not LGA. LGA does not have any beyond perimeter exemptions besides DEN. The only reason DEN has service is because they were grandfathered in.

Yes, I understand that. I was responding to DeltaMD90's question about exemptions.

But I should have been more clear and said "in the case of DCA...."

mariner
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steex
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:04 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
When AA bought TWA, it didn't get TWA's LAX-DCA - as I recall that was put up for bid again (not money) and I believe Alaska got it.
Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
But I should have been more clear and said "in the case of DCA...."

Your recollection of the DCA perimeter exemption proceedings is correct. AA badly wanted to keep LAX-DCA, but it was ruled that the beyond-perimeter slots could not change operating certificates via purchase (and AA did not win the subsequent offering).

That delineation is why the ruling did not apply to either US (since HP purchased US and changed names, the slots were not actually purchased in the transaction) or F9 (though Republic purchased F9, the airline retained its certificate to operate as an autonomous carrier).
 
HPRamper
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:21 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 19):
Lets not jump the gun on the DCA swaps just yet. IIRC, the DOJ is still investigating the anti-trust implications of that part of the swap, but they have given the go ahead on the LGA swaps.

In that case, let's not jump the gun on any of it, because if DCA isn't approved, the LGA deal goes poof as well.
 
FL787
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:45 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 9):
DL is not currently leasing out any slot pairs to other airlines. They currently have 100 slots pairs at DCA, which will fall to 50 slot pairs after the slot swap is implemented (42 pairs go to US, 8 pairs go to LCCs via the auction process).

Has there ever been any evidence that the slots being divested are not part of the 42 pairs? I was always under the impression that US would end up with 34 pairs when all is said and done. Is US giving up 148 pairs of slots at LGA in total?
 
SkyTeamTriStar
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:12 pm

Regarding this slot swap, I'm interested in Concourse/Terminal preparedness. Will DL have to gut the whole Terminal at LGA? Does anyone know if DL plans to refurbish the interior just like at JFK T4?

This is very exciting...a true "full-fledged" domestic hub for DL at La Guardia.

NOTE: "Full-fledged" hub was the wording used by EVP-Delta Flight Ops
 
blueman87
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting AmtrakGuy (Reply 7):
I flew DCA-TPA-DCA last fall on E90

DL doesnt have E90 you mean E70 right
B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
 
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mayor
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 24):
Quoting mayor (Reply 19):
Lets not jump the gun on the DCA swaps just yet. IIRC, the DOJ is still investigating the anti-trust implications of that part of the swap, but they have given the go ahead on the LGA swaps.

In that case, let's not jump the gun on any of it, because if DCA isn't approved, the LGA deal goes poof as well.

Well, I sort of agree with you. I can't imagine US wanting to go ahead with the LGA part if they're not going to get the DCA gates. However, many on here (and DL) seem to think that the LGA swaps are a done deal, no matter what happens with DCA. Time will tell, I suppose.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
saab2000
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:33 pm

The perimeter rule is out of date and should be scrapped. My name is Saab2000 and I approve this message.
smrtrthnu
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:35 pm

"-Increased frequencies to FLL, PBI, MCO and TPA."

These are typical LGA P2P routes that have been/or are currently flown by Delta, AA, CO, TWA, EA, NA, B6, NK over the years.

While I am sure they will add some capacity to Florida from LGA, I think they will use this new hub as something more creative and business oriented.
 
HPRamper
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):
Well, I sort of agree with you. I can't imagine US wanting to go ahead with the LGA part if they're not going to get the DCA gates. However, many on here (and DL) seem to think that the LGA swaps are a done deal, no matter what happens with DCA. Time will tell, I suppose.

One swap is contingent on the other. Otherwise it's a giveaway. US won't just wave goodbye to millions of dollars worth of LGA slots and gates without getting anything in return - the few millions DL was sending over isn't nearly enough.
 
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mayor
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
One swap is contingent on the other. Otherwise it's a giveaway. US won't just wave goodbye to millions of dollars worth of LGA slots and gates without getting anything in return - the few millions DL was sending over isn't nearly enough.

Well, that's my thinking.....however, the DOT/DOJ and other parties seem to be treating them as two separate swaps.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
bigbird
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:36 pm

If the LGA swap is not a done deal how can they already be doing the auction of the slots that DL is having to give up in the deal approval?
bigbird from georgia
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:46 pm

Well DL is already prepared to part ways with 60+ mil to make the swap happen and im sure US has a price to let them go. Throw in a good lease deal with DL for the DCA slots and im sure a deal can be done and not a single slot divested since there wont be change of slot ownership. I just don't know why a deal couldn't be made to make a long term lease for like 100 years or so, and have a clause stating that each company had first right to buy the slots in case of change of ownership, merger, bancrupcy, or hostile take over. That way not a single slot would have gone to the competition at LGA or DCA. Im sure all of this is highly unlikely but stranger things have happened before.
 
MAH4546
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting bigbird (Reply 33):

If the LGA swap is not a done deal how can they already be doing the auction of the slots that DL is having to give up in the deal approval?


Efficiency. No reason not to, really. But the swap can't happen until DOJ approves, and, all indications are DOJ will not approve the swap due to Reagan competitetion concerns. At that point will come a lawsuit, in which a court will decide to side with DOJ or DL/US.

There is nothing stopping the LGA transfer - DL has full approval to takeover the LaGuardia slots, so in theory is the DCA acquisition by US is rejected, DL could attempt to make an all-cash deal for US' LGA assets.
a.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 35):
Efficiency. No reason not to, really. But the swap can't happen until DOJ approves, and, all indications are DOJ will not approve the swap due to Reagan competitetion concerns. At that point will come a lawsuit, in which a court will decide to side with DOJ or DL/US.

Well, not quite (at least in my understanding.) The DOJ doesn't approve/disapprove anything... they state their opinion that is held very very highly. If the carriers/DOT go ahead with the swap, then the DOJ sues, and then the courts decide. At least that's what I've read
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
FutureUScapt
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting FL787 (Reply 25):
Has there ever been any evidence that the slots being divested are not part of the 42 pairs?

Yes, DL will be making all of the slot divestitures as part of the revised deal. DL will transfer US 84 slots at DCA and US will transfer DL 265 slots at LGA. DL will then divest 16 slots at DCA and 32 at LGA. Refer to Table 7 and Table 8 in the link below.

http://www.federalregister.gov/artic...tition-for-waiver-and-other-relief
 
MAH4546
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:18 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 35):
Efficiency. No reason not to, really. But the swap can't happen until DOJ approves, and, all indications are DOJ will not approve the swap due to Reagan competitetion concerns. At that point will come a lawsuit, in which a court will decide to side with DOJ or DL/US.

Well, not quite (at least in my understanding.) The DOJ doesn't approve/disapprove anything... they state their opinion that is held very very highly. If the carriers/DOT go ahead with the swap, then the DOJ sues, and then the courts decide. At least that's what I've read


Correct, but DOJ will sue if it doesn't approve of the swap. Its not as if they will let the issue the slide.
a.
 
FL787
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RE: When Does DL Start Using New LGA Slots?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:20 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 37):

Ok thank you that's a very good resource. How does having an odd number of slots work?