JerseyFlyer
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ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:30 pm

It looks as though Boeing may have over-promised a tad on this: "Boeing touted the ease of transition to the 787 as a selling point saying 777 pilots could make the switch in about a week. ANA says it's spending five weeks...."

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...aining_Snags_Hit_ANA_205696-1.html

Is this likely to be a general issue or is ANA just being very very cautious as lead 787 customer?
 
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par13del
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:52 pm

ANA added what they thought was necessary to the transition process, how does this figure into your and Airbus theory of the cockpit commonality of Airbus a/c versus Boeing's claim on the 777 transition to the 787?
We already know that only the Boeing a/c with the same type rating was the 757 / 767.
 
NYC777
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:00 pm

The FAA/EASA has certified the Boeing training program for 787 pilots transitioning from the 777. ANA is adding material to their training curriculum so if they're adding training time I don't see how that is Boeing's fault.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
The FAA/EASA has certified the Boeing training program for 787 pilots transitioning from the 777. ANA is adding material to their training curriculum so if they're adding training time I don't see how that is Boeing's fault.

Well, from reading this article it seems like ANA disagrees with Boeing as to what is an acceptable amount of training for pilots going from the 777 to the 787. ANA is very conservative in general so I wouldn't be surprised to see if some of the training is "overkill". At the same time, I also would not be surprised if Boeing was overly aggressive in their promises and that it does take more than 1 week for pilots to get the amount of training they need to transition successfully.
 
Mir
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:20 pm

Having to properly learn all the new systems and procedures involved in moving to an all-electric airplane (not to mention the different avionics) takes more than a week? Say it ain't so....  

-Mir
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Sean-SAN-
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:24 pm

ANA takes 6 months just to train Q400 pilots! The rest of the world is 6 weeks max!
 
eaa3
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
It looks as though Boeing may have over-promised a tad on this: "Boeing touted the ease of transition to the 787 as a selling point saying 777 pilots could make the switch in about a week. ANA says it's spending five weeks...."

Plus the pilots are probably used to the gear coming down when directed on the B777. That must be quite an adjustment.
 
NYC777
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:39 pm

No when UA (or any other airline that will use a pool of 777 pilots to fly the 787) starts training its 777 pilots to fly the 787 next year, if the training takes 1 week then the truth will be known.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:29 pm

Quote:
Plus the pilots are probably used to the gear coming down when directed on the B777. That must be quite an adjustment.

Could you please elaborate on that one?

Cheers
"ad astra per aspera"
 
YYZRWY23
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:05 pm

There was a glitch with the indicator lamp which required the pilots to deploy the gear manually.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...liner-glitch-idUSLNE7A603L20111107

Just a poke at the incident.

YYZRWY23
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chuchoteur
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:26 pm

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 15):
There was a glitch with the indicator lamp which required the pilots to deploy the gear manually.

Ahem, that indicator lamp worked fine. the nosewheel was out but not locked, and the main landing gear hadn't deployed.
There's a photo of the tower flypast on the related thread.

Good news is, the backup systems worked just fine!
 
 
flood
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:00 am

Haven't seen it mentioned, but for comparison's sake the original WSJ article also stated:

"Officials at United Continental Holdings Inc., for example, have said they are planning 11 days of training for many of their new 787 cockpit crews."

Not letting me link to the WSJ, but the link is also found in the initial article posted by OP. Requires subscription.
 
col
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 7):
Plus the pilots are probably used to the gear coming down when directed on the B777. That must be quite an adjustment.

Now this was funny.

Also, I do believe Airbus people have been on the street touting their FBW and crew commonality for at least a week or two, or could it be 25 years!!

The reality is that transitioning from the 777 to 787 takes 1 to 5 weeks depending where you live, so Boeing can change their peperwork. In Malaysia, at present it is zero time, cos we ain't got any coming, so no concern here.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):

It looks as though Boeing may have over-promised a tad on this: "Boeing touted the ease of transition to the 787 as a selling point saying 777 pilots could make the switch in about a week.

It's not Boeing, it's FAA/EASA. Boeing proposed it, FAA/EASA accepted it. The fact that JCAB (or maybe ANA, can't really tell) aren't accepting it has nothing to do with Boeing.

Quoting flood (Reply 11):
"Officials at United Continental Holdings Inc., for example, have said they are planning 11 days of training for many of their new 787 cockpit crews."

Where are their new 787 crews coming from? If from 777 then they're obviously adding extra...if from 767, maybe not.

Quoting par13del (Reply 1):
We already know that only the Boeing a/c with the same type rating was the 757 / 767.

Not anymore...777/787 are a common type rating.

Tom.
 
Mir
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:53 am

Quoting flood (Reply 11):
"Officials at United Continental Holdings Inc., for example, have said they are planning 11 days of training for many of their new 787 cockpit crews."

I'd expect 10-14 days to be the average (not counting the self-study of the systems beforehand). There seems to be just too much difference in the systems to realistically pack it into a week, regardless of what the FAA might approve.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:10 am

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 9):
There was a glitch with the indicator lamp which required the pilots to deploy the gear manually.

I wonder which pixel that was.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):

It's not Boeing, it's FAA/EASA. Boeing proposed it, FAA/EASA accepted it. The fact that JCAB (or maybe ANA, can't really tell) aren't accepting it has nothing to do with Boeing.

What did Boeing propose ? i.e. the detail. I would not be able to go through the 787s FCOMs in 5 days, let alone the checklists, MEL, QRH, and the simulator work.

I suspect that the whole process Boeing has proposed is not 5 days at all, I suspect that is only one aspect if it, I suggest that is the simulator component only.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
maxpower1954
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:25 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 1):
We already know that only the Boeing a/c with the same type rating was the 757 / 767.

And the 707/720.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 3):
ANA is very conservative in general so I wouldn't be surprised to see if some of the training is "overkill".

Maybe ANA wants to ensure that its pilots don't do a barrel roll in the 787 like those 2 ANA pilots did with the 737 recently!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
What did Boeing propose ?

Boeing proposed 5 days of actual training time for a 777 type-rated pilot to do the differences training (classroom + sim) to get a 787 type-rating.

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I would not be able to go through the 787s FCOMs in 5 days, let alone the checklists, MEL, QRH, and the simulator work.

I'm pretty sure they don't count the self-study of the documents in the training time. If you have an Alteon course that's 7 days and Alteon says "read the FCOM before you come" that's generally still called a 7 day course. Although, in this case, part of the basis of the common type rating is that the QRH and normal procedures are the same so you shouldn't be learning anything new on that front.

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I suspect that the whole process Boeing has proposed is not 5 days at all, I suspect that is only one aspect if it, I suggest that is the simulator component only.

It's definitely not just the sim time...depending on which source you look at it's either the classroom time, or the classroom time + sim time.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading the FAA document on the subject...lots of great information on what the differences actually are:
http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-787_fsb.pdf

Tom.
 
sf260
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:19 pm

I spoke to a KL 777-300ER captain the other week -who just finished his course- and he didn't even know what engines were on that plane... GE90 didn't sound familiar in any way... (I was flabbergasted, to say the least)

Maybe ANA wants their pilots to have a decent training.
 
trigged
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting sf260 (Reply 19):
I spoke to a KL 777-300ER captain the other week -who just finished his course- and he didn't even know what engines were on that plane... GE90 didn't sound familiar in any way... (I was flabbergasted, to say the least)

Maybe ANA wants their pilots to have a decent training.

So the FAA approved training scheme is inadequate and lacking? Could it possibly be dangerous and put the crew and passengers at mortal risk? Maybe ANA should ground all 787's until all go through their training program since it is superior to the program developed by the OEM. I would suggest a halt in production as well until the training program is changed to ANA standards. Maybe the director of the FAA needs to resign.


Somehow I feel that the pilot knowing the nomenclature of the engines is far less significant as to how to control the engines while in flight.

[Edited 2011-11-08 07:31:13]
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading the FAA document on the subject...lots of great information on what the differences actually are:

I had not seen that document before, however looking at the training footprint on page 57 I do not think that would not be acceptable here.

One would be expected to have done the theory first, being FCOMs/CBT (5 days), that would be followed by classroom work/IPT/exams (another 5 days). And then we would do at least six full flight sims, a couple of normal procedures, a couple of abnormal, an aircraft rating sim, and also and aircraft instrument rating sim (6 days).

That would be at least 11 days in at the office after completing at least 5 days worth of self study, in reality that self study would more likely be more like 10 days.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:40 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
looking at the training footprint on page 57 I do not think that would not be acceptable here.

That's entire consistent with what ANA/JCAB is saying...I gather they're much more stringent on all training. In which case the bias of the article, as some claim, seems even more assured because it sounds like JCAB would do this to *all* courses, not just 777-to-787 differences.

Tom.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
It looks as though Boeing may have over-promised a tad on this: "Boeing touted the ease of transition to the 787 as a selling point saying 777 pilots could make the switch in about a week. ANA says it's spending five weeks...."

And this is Boeing's fault, how? Airlines and operators are allowed to adjust their training regimen however they want. It isn't "over-promising" on Boeing's part.

Much ado about absolutely NOTHING.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:45 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 23):
It isn't "over-promising" on Boeing's part.

It would have been over-promising if Boeing had pitched a 5-day differences course and the regulators had rejected it...but that's not what happened. FAA/EASA, the ones who issued the type certificate, both accepted it. It's not clear if it was ANA or JCAB that lead the charge to make it longer in Japan buit that's not something Boeing, FAA, or EASA can control.

Tom.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:16 am

Having flown for a Japanese airline and done a full type rating course with them in the past, this doesn't surprise me one bit. It took almost 6 months compared to about 6 weeks anywhere else.

It's just the Japanese mentality of overkill!
 
cedarjet
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:48 am

BA have looked at this and have decided that the two are so different (777 vs 787) that they are now going to treat the 787 as a separate type with a separate, dedicated pilot pool. Originally all 787 drivers were to have been drawn from the ranks of 777 guys (n girls), now it's open to all, previous experience on the triple is not considered a bonus.

Have flown on the 787 and she's a game changing sci fi super babe. However commonality with her older sister appears to have vastly exaggerated and it looks like Nippon have made the sensible move with their training programme. Btw most of their pilots have done ten landings in an empty aircraft to be checked out (a typical number on a typerating is five).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
maxpower1954
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:17 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):
Btw most of their pilots have done ten landings in an empty aircraft to be checked out (a typical number on a typerating is five).

That's interesting, because in the U.S. training in an actual aircraft hasn't been done in years. My F-28, 757/767, 737, A320 and E190 type ratings were all done in the simulator. My first actual flights in all of the above were done on the initial operating experience with a check airman on a scheduled flight.

My DC-8 type rating in 1984 required three landings in a real DC-8. But simulators then weren't what they are now.
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:15 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):

Operators have to meet the local regulators requirements, it was not that long back where normal and one engine out circuits, go-arounds, and landings were done in the aircraft in Asia.

Back in the "ole" days CX used to take an empty aircraft with 20-30 pilots to U-Tapao/Pattaya to do circuits for a week.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
cedarjet
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
That's interesting, because in the U.S. training in an actual aircraft hasn't been done in years. My F-28, 757/767, 737, A320 and E190 type ratings were all done in the simulator. My first actual flights in all of the above were done on the initial operating experience with a check airman on a scheduled flight.

To clarify two points - 1. the "ten landings" is based on what a Nippon pilot told me. I was on a commercial flight in week one of ops, and it was the flight crew's first sector with actual punters onboard. I asked him how many landings - if any - he'd done on the real aircraft and he said "ten". 2. I agree that it's unusual to do any flying in an empty aircraft for a typerating, but after all the sim training, a pilot new to a type still has to land five times to be typerated. So for instance, my buddy who recently moved from the A320 to the 777 (at BA) performed the takeoff and landing on his first five line flights on the triple, and only after those legs was he then rated on the new type.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):
However commonality with her older sister appears to have vastly exaggerated

How so? Same symbology, functionally same overhead panel (where it is different it's simpler on the 787), same handling, same normal and non-normal procedures.

Tom.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 11):
"Officials at United Continental Holdings Inc., for example, have said they are planning 11 days of training for many of their new 787 cockpit crews."

From Which plane? Aren't the bulk of UA/CO 787 pilots coming from the 767?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
The FAA/EASA has certified the Boeing training program for 787 pilots transitioning from the 777. ANA is adding material to their training curriculum so if they're adding training time I don't see how that is Boeing's fault.

I just do not see the time ANA is demanding.

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 5):
ANA takes 6 months just to train Q400 pilots! The rest of the world is 6 weeks max!

Is that really the case?!? If so, it shows ANA is going to an expense training pilots that is just not justified.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Having to properly learn all the new systems and procedures involved in moving to an all-electric airplane (not to mention the different avionics) takes more than a week? Say it ain't so....

That wouldn't surprise me. But the 11 day program sounds more justifiable than a 5 week program.

Lightsaber
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cedarjet
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:05 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 30):
Same symbology, functionally same overhead panel (where it is different it's simpler on the 787), same handling, same normal and non-normal procedures.

That may be in your opinion (and, I suppose, Boeing's intention), but both Nippon and British Airways - whose opinion carries rather more weight - have evaluated the situation and have decided otherwise. If they are erring on the side of caution, well, that is the side I like to be on.

I haven't flown it myself, obviously, but from a passenger's point of view, the 787 is utterly unlike anything I've flown in, and based on that experience, I am not surprised NH and BA think, also, that this is a new paradigm and worthy of being treated as such.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
474218
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:51 pm

Anyone that ever lived or worked in Japan would never question why, what the rest of the world does in one week takes the Japanese five weeks. Every word on the Boeing manual has to be translated in to Japanese. The meaning of each and every word will be scrutinized, could there be an alternate meaning. They are just meticulous in every thing they do, they want it right and take the time to make it right.

The Japanese take thing literally. Two examples:

I was in the town of Narita and there was a sign that showed the layout of the city. This big arrow pointed to a spot on the map with the words "you are near here". When I questioned why it said "you are near here" not "you are here" like everywhere else in the world. I was told if, the sign said "you are here" you would have to be on the sign!

I wrote an test procedure for ANA years ago to assist in solving a problem they were having. The procedure was sent by TELEX and the TELEX operator used the word "preform" in lieu of "perform". This cause so much confusion, we had to have or on-site representative meet with the head of Engineering and Maintenance to explain that nothing had to be bent.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:04 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 32):
That may be in your opinion (and, I suppose, Boeing's intention), but both Nippon and British Airways - whose opinion carries rather more weight - have evaluated the situation and have decided otherwise. If they are erring on the side of caution, well, that is the side I like to be on.

And that's the thing in the end. Boeing REPEATEDLY has been vastly over-optimistic on virtually every piece / part of the 787 program. Even now they continue to claim they can ramp the 787 production figures to 10 per month in less than 24 months, while they continue to struggle to getting to 2.5 per month. They are using all new techs yet still claim the "ramp up" will take 1/2 as long as they did with the 777.

Is it any wonder why the breakeven of this program has been pushed from the traditional 400 frames to probably 1,500 or more?

Unreal.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA 787 Pilot Transition Issue From 777

Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 32):
That may be in your opinion (and, I suppose, Boeing's intention), but both Nippon and British Airways - whose opinion carries rather more weight - have evaluated the situation and have decided otherwise.

It's also the opinion of the FAA and EASA...and their opinion sure counts more than mine.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 32):
If they are erring on the side of caution, well, that is the side I like to be on.

Nobody objects to that...it's totally up to each airline to decide what they want and no regulator is going to have any issue with going beyond the requirements but both the FAA and EASA certified that Boeing's training plan meets the requirements.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 34):
And that's the thing in the end. Boeing REPEATEDLY has been vastly over-optimistic on virtually every piece / part of the 787 program.

A little hyperbolic but, in this case, they didn't over-promise...the regulators certified the training that Boeing said they would deliver. Criticizing Boeing for ANA deciding to train more extensively is like saying Boeing missed MTOW targets because ANA chose to get a paper MTOW derate.

Tom.