RubberJungle
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Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:55 am

Now this is interesting. Is Transaero likely to take both?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-days-after-a380-agreement-364442/

Just days after tentatively signing for four Airbus A380s, Russian carrier Transaero has also reached a preliminary agreement to take four Boeing 747-8 passenger aircraft.

The Moscow-based carrier has confirmed the agreement for the jets which would be fitted with around 460 seats in four classes.


Boeing's vice-president for civil aircraft sales in Russia, Marty Bentrott, said Transaero would become the first carrier in the country, and in Eastern Europe, to take the new 747 variant.

[Edited 2011-11-08 04:43:06 by moderators]
 
fcogafa
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:01 pm

Anyone see a trend developing here? Maybe the two new heavies aren't such direct competitors as had been thought and actually complement each other. BAW next!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:02 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Thread starter):
Is Transaero likely to take both?

They indicated they would when they signed for their A380s. I must admit, I'm struggling to see the benefit of operating both types in (at least initially) such small numbers.
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Extra300
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:03 pm

I guess they will take both types.

How many airlines have now ordered both 748 and A388? Lufthansa, Korean Air, Transaero and Hong Kong Airlines. Any more? Hong Kong Airlines orders are still "undisclosed" and Transaero orders are not firmed.
Did I get it right?
 
Cerecl
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting extra300 (Reply 3):
Hong Kong Airlines orders are still "undisclosed

Technically HX has ordered neither as its orders appear on neither A nor B's books . There is a persisting rumour (with some graphical evidence in support) that HX will order both type.

[Edited 2011-11-08 04:41:40]
 
na
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:51 pm

Good news.
But I must say I´m surprised. Very likely both orders, for A380 and 748I, will be topped up. Beside Emirates Transaero seems to be the fastest growing airline worldwide. They´re sucking up the whole holiday market in Russia.

Quoting extra300 (Reply 3):
How many airlines have now ordered both 748 and A388? Lufthansa, Korean Air, Transaero and Hong Kong Airlines. Any more? Hong Kong Airlines orders are still "undisclosed" and Transaero orders are not firmed.
Did I get it right?

Yes. I hope some more airlines will follow and order both types.
 
A388
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:58 pm

This is very unusual for Transaero to order brandnew aircraft and I never expected them to order the A380, nor the 747-8I. Interesting and good luck to them of course!!!

A388
 
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Stitch
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:02 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
I must admit, I'm struggling to see the benefit of operating both types in (at least initially) such small numbers.

Well they do have a decent 747 fleet. I expect the 773s coming from SQ will replace the 742s, but that leaves 4 743s and 12 744s to replace so UN might want to have some flexibility in capacity on the upper end.
 
sf260
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:05 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
Maybe the two new heavies aren't such direct competitors as had been thought

Some people have been saying from the beginning [of the 747-8I launch] there was still a significant difference in size between the 2 VLA's.

After all, it seems the gap between the largest 1-deck wide-body (77W, A346) and the A380 is big enough to justify the existence of the 747-8I. Can't wait to see more -8I orders...   
 
na
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Well they do have a decent 747 fleet. I expect the 773s coming from SQ will replace the 742s, but that leaves 4 743s and 12 744s to replace so UN might want to have some flexibility in capacity on the upper end.

Most of Transaeros 744s have been aquired just this year, and they are fairly new, so I expect them to stay for the major part of this decade. The airline is just growing massively, so I do not see the new orders as being replacements, but additions.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:21 pm

Quoting extra300 (Reply 3):
Hong Kong Airlines orders are still "undisclosed" and Transaero orders are not firmed.
Did I get it right?

HX was going to order 10 A380s, but it has been blocked by the Chinese government. HX also have 15 unconfirmed orders for the 747-8.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
I'm struggling to see the benefit of operating both types in (at least initially) such small numbers.

Well with the A380 having 700 seats and the 748 with 460 seats, there's a substantial difference. Perhaps they liked the CASM of the A380 too much not to have it, but weren't sure about getting all of them filled if they went all-A380.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Very likely both orders, for A380 and 748I, will be topped up.

Transaero still operates 744's, and although those probably will last until the end of the decade, eventually they need replacing as well (like the 2nd hand 773s). Then you have two healthy numbered subfleets....

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Yes. I hope some more airlines will follow and order both types.

So do I   Perhaps CX   
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A520
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
I must admit, I'm struggling to see the benefit of operating both types in (at least initially) such small numbers.

Politics!

To stay in good terms with both Europe (the largest economic partner), and the US (the largest political counterpart)!
 
art
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting A520 (Reply 12):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
I must admit, I'm struggling to see the benefit of operating both types in (at least initially) such small numbers.

Politics!

To stay in good terms with both Europe (the largest economic partner), and the US (the largest political counterpart)!

 
 
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EPA001
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
They indicated they would when they signed for their A380s.


They kept their word.  . Good news as more 4-holers will remain visible in the sky for many years to come.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
Very likely both orders, for A380 and 748I, will be topped up


The more they are topped up, the more sense they will make. So bring on the rest of the bunch.  .
 
ghifty
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:18 pm

Very nice to hear on a Tuesday! Glad to see that the 747-8i might possible be taking off, in terms of orders.. Transaero seems to have a significant amount of aircraft on order, growth plans? The new Aeroflot?

On a humorous note, at least now we'll have the opportunity to gander at what an Air France 747-8i might look like.

     

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
Well with the A380 having 700 seats and the 748 with 460 seats, there's a substantial difference. Perhaps they liked the CASM of the A380 too much not to have it, but weren't sure about getting all of them filled if they went all-A380.

Exactly! This order goes to show that there's merit for airlines operating the A380 to operate the 747-8i as well! Glad to see this. For both EADS and Boeing.
Fly Delta (Wid)Jets
 
747400sp
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:53 pm

Thise great news!             See an order, for my two favorite airliner put me in a real good mode.   
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting A520 (Reply 12):
Politics!

To stay in good terms with both Europe (the largest economic partner), and the US (the largest political counterpart)!

Transaero are not the national airline of Russia, so would it really matter?  
 
travelin man
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:55 am

Quoting A520 (Reply 12):
Politics!

To stay in good terms with both Europe (the largest economic partner), and the US (the largest political counterpart)!

So LH ordered both types because of "politics" as well?
 
Fabo
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:28 am

Quoting travelin man (Reply 18):
So LH ordered both types because of "politics" as well?

LH aint in Russia.
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travelin man
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 19):
LH aint in Russia.

Exactly. And for whatever reason LH thinks both types of aircraft are useful in its fleet.

So are you saying because it's a Russian airline, they can't come to the same conclusion without it being "politics"?
 
trex8
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting travelin man (Reply 20):
So are you saying because it's a Russian airline, they can't come to the same conclusion without it being "politics"?

It may be a perfect business solution for them but it may also be because when Lufthansa management p... off German politicians they still have a job, the Transaero guys don't dare go to the bathroom without Putins say so.
 
tullamarine
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:05 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
Maybe the two new heavies aren't such direct competitors as had been thought and actually complement each other. BAW next!

The 748i and A380 may be complementary in certain circumstances but I think the 77W and 748i are not. Given BA has ordered the 77W I can't see why they'd ever need the 748i.
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tommytoyz
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:25 am

Perhaps the fact that the A380 is only supported by a small number of airports has something to do with the fact that some airlines have ordered both the A380 and the 747-8i.
 
XaraB
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:25 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 23):

Both the A380 and 747-8i are ICAO Code F aircraft. The only difference operation-wise at airports should be ground equipment such as belt loaders, catering trucks and mobile stairs.
An open mind is not an empty one
 
r2rho
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:00 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
with the A380 having 700 seats and the 748 with 460 seats, there's a substantial difference.

467 pax is the generous standard 3-class seating and would be equivalent to the 525 seats on the A380. A more appropriate comparison is 581 (Boeing's 748 2-class config) versus 700 seats. Still a difference of over 100 seats, which justifies the use of both aircraft from a capacity management point of view.

However, I don't see how operating such small subfleets makes sense from a fleet management point of view, and I assume follow-on orders are to come in the future. There is still a lot of development potential in Russian aviation, and Russian tourism is only beginning to kick off right now.
 
shankly
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:07 am

The A380 and the B748....the new A330/B777 fleet buddies

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 11):
Well with the A380 having 700 seats and the 748 with 460 seats, there's a substantial difference. Perhaps they liked the CASM of the A380 too much not to have it, but weren't sure about getting all of them filled if they went all-A380

On the numbers frigatebird. Indeed these facts just redefine what quite different aircraft they are
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windshear
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:11 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
BAW next!

I agree!

Boaz.
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something
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:20 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
Anyone see a trend developing here?

That more than just operating numbers go into the purchasing decision process.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 18):
So LH ordered both types because of "politics" as well?

I thought it was a well established fact that LH's 748 was a form of compensation for Boeing's failed on board internet access and that KE was given a similar deal for the 787 delays?

Given this ''trend'', I expect NH, the new UA and El Al to be among the next 748s customers.

Politics as usual.
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Stitch
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
I thought it was a well established fact that LH's 748 was a form of compensation for Boeing's failed on board internet access and that KE was given a similar deal for the 787 delays?

It's a well-established theory expounded by some Airbus Aficionados...
 
na
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 22):
The 748i and A380 may be complementary in certain circumstances but I think the 77W and 748i are not. Given BA has ordered the 77W I can't see why they'd ever need the 748i.

Certainly wrong. See LH, were many 346s do exist, the equivalent of the 77W. BA has one of the biggest international route networks, and I am sure some routes were the 748 would be the perfect tools. Isnt the (relatively small) 77W fleet leased and could be replaced in time? I dont see why not BA should need/order 748Is in the future.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):

This may be a dumb question but what ac does LH have or had that required them to get compensation in the first place? I can see how KE might have been compensated by the 747i for the 787, but LH had no such rights to claim since they did not order any 787 to start off with.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 31):
but LH had no such rights to claim since they did not order any 787 to start off with.


LH wanted "Connexxion by Boeing" Internet access on their planes if I am not mistaken. Since that service was discontinued by Boeing (due to technical problems?) Boeing did not deliver on what was promised in the contract. Supposedly LH got some compensation for that in the sales price on the B747-8i. Where they, as launch customer, would get a very, very sweet price anyway.  .
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:58 pm

I see the A380 with the 700 seat config deployed on typical tourism destination like the Black Sea, one replacing 2 747 classics on certain routes. Guess the 747-8i's will be for intercontinental markets ...
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:05 pm

G´day

Quoting something (Reply 28):
El Al to be among the next 748s customers

I doubt they have a choice. Airbus would likely be asking El Al to make a deposit covering the full list price of the aircraft ahead of even quoting for an A 380 or any other model for that matter.

There is only so much you can play with potential suppliers  


Cheers

Peter
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alex572
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 33):
I see the A380 with the 700 seat config deployed on typical tourism destination like the Black Sea, one replacing 2 747 classics on certain routes. Guess the 747-8i's will be for intercontinental markets ...

I assume exactly this scenario will be implemented. The intrigue is still what would be the final order figures, my guess they will at least double orders for both 380 and 747-8.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting alex572 (Reply 35):
Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 33):
I see the A380 with the 700 seat config deployed on typical tourism destination like the Black Sea, one replacing 2 747 classics on certain routes. Guess the 747-8i's will be for intercontinental markets ...

I assume exactly this scenario will be implemented.

You both mean destinations such as Varna, Burgas and so on? Are these airports already A 380-ready?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 32):
Since that service was discontinued by Boeing (due to technical problems?) Boeing did not deliver on what was promised in the contract.

Connexion did launch (used it on LH, SQ, OZ, etc.), but Boeing lost money running it so they shut it down. Evidently Panasonic's system leverages much of the existing Connexion infrastructure.
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:54 pm

I really hope Transaero is really calculating their monies correctly.

I am very familiar with Russian mentality and I really hope that just because they are getting credit in large numbers from all different types of banks, I really hope they understand that they are putting themselves in a huge amount of debt.

I just cannot see Russia's aviation industry moving in such extremely fast pace, I spend about 4-5 Months out of the year in the region, and Russia is a place that is extremely vulnerable to the economic situation of the world.

These huge transactions seem to be over doing what is actually happening in Russia.

Aeroflot which is a huge airline with very high standards, A airline that is basically the face of Russia, A airlines that owns there own Moscow Airport and an airline that receives funds from every dollar that other airlines need to pay Russia for flying over the territory, I understand where they get there money from.

I do not understand where Transaero gets its money from, They have massive amounts of planes just sitting around in DME.

Russia is still Russia and you need to worry that sooner or later being a private airline someone might start controlling your over ambition when it comes to going head to head with Aeroflot.
 
alex572
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 36):
You both mean destinations such as Varna, Burgas and so on? Are these airports already A 380-ready?

You are right, to put things correctly A380 area would be various leisure areas all over the Mideterranean (from Turkey to Spain) and not probably Black Sea.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 38):
Russia is still Russia and you need to worry that sooner or later being a private airline someone might start controlling your over ambition when it comes to going head to head with Aeroflot.

Their initial 747 planning was 4-5 aircraft only and now they use 20 and still need much more. It does not surprise anyone nowdays how EK might generate profit to finance dozens of A380s in such a small market like DXB - and it is evident that UN should not really worry where to take money from with huge potential of the Russian market behind. It will feed both SU and UN pretty nice.
 
Severnaya
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 38):
These huge transactions seem to be over doing what is actually happening in Russia.

You do realize that Transaero is year after year increasing their passenger numbers with 15 to 20% annually?
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
flightsimer
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:52 pm

MORE 747-8I's!!!!!!   Congrats Transaero!

After this order, the current orders for the -8I stand at:
20x Lufthansa (20 options)
9x BBJ
5x Korean Airlines (5 options?, i cant remember or not)
5x Air China (pending approval)
15x Hainan Airlines (pending approval)
2x Arik Air
4x Transaero (to be firmed)

Total: 60 firm(ish) plus 20 or 25 options.

There will be at least 3 VC-xx's to replace the VC-25's per the last RPF and Korean's government has shown interest in the same type of aircraft.

I think with the above airlines alone, we can almostly certainly see over 100 747-8I's produced.
Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
 
ghifty
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 34):
I doubt they have a choice. Airbus would likely be asking El Al to make a deposit covering the full list price of the aircraft ahead of even quoting for an A 380 or any other model for that matter.

There is only so much you can play with potential suppliers

Why would Airbus do such a thing? I'm confused..

Quoting something (Reply 28):
Given this ''trend'', I expect NH, the new UA and El Al to be among the next 748s customers.

Why would El Al be thrown into the mix? It would appear they cancelled their 787 orders before the program turned into a nightmare.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 41):
MORE 747-8I's!!!!!!   Congrats Transaero!

After this order, the current orders for the -8I stand at:
20x Lufthansa (20 options)
9x BBJ
5x Korean Airlines (5 options?, i cant remember or not)
5x Air China (pending approval)
15x Hainan Airlines (pending approval)
2x Arik Air
4x Transaero (to be firmed)

Total: 60 firm(ish) plus 20 or 25 options.

There will be at least 3 VC-xx's to replace the VC-25's per the last RPF and Korean's government has shown interest in the same type of aircraft.

I think with the above airlines alone, we can almostly certainly see over 100 747-8I's produced.

What airlines will comprise the remaining ~40 to get to the 100 frames mark? UA? BA? VX?
Fly Delta (Wid)Jets
 
flightsimer
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RE: Transaero Signs For 747-8I As Well

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 42):
What airlines will comprise the remaining ~40 to get to the 100 frames mark? UA? BA? VX?

The 100 would be just for the airlines who have ordered it already and have options on the bird.

In addition to the known options, i think Air China will have a top up order of at least 5 frames.

Also if Hong Kong's A380 order stays blocked, they will be needing more than just the 15 -8I's they have pending. Which if they expand their order based off of pure seating capacity, those 10 A380's could easily turn into 15 additional -8I's.

And also Transaero. Like others have stated, 4 aircraft is a small fleet. Its very likely they will increase the fleet size with time.

Other airlines that i think we have a very large chance of seeing -8I orders from are Cathy Pacific, El Al and Turkish. with just those three airlines i think another 50 or so total is quite possible.
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