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STT757
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UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:28 pm

As pointed out in the OAG thread UA is moving the EZE route to EWR this Spring, bringing the route back to the NYC market from where it originated.

Flight #847 departs EWR at 9:50PM, 767-300.
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United787
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:34 pm

That is a bummer...I would think that they could do both EWR-EZE and IAD-EZE...

It seems like EWR is getting preferential treatment to IAD in the new UA...
 
ScottB
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
It seems like EWR is getting preferential treatment to IAD in the new UA...

Seems more like they're just following the money...
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
It seems like EWR is getting preferential treatment to IAD in the new UA...

The route is just moving back to where it began (NY), UA couldn't compete in the NY market so they withdrew their JFK-GRU-GIG , JFK-EZE-MVD , JFK-LHR and JFK-NRT flights. Now with the merger with CO they are in a more competitive position, and the route is moving back.

Would love if they brought back the Montevideo tag, either to EWR-EZE or IAH-EZE.
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eastern023
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:41 pm

I thought IAD-EZE was a money maker. So fat chance of seeing IAD-SCL, this confirms that if UAL is to start the route it would be IAH-SCL.
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klwright69
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:42 pm

I am not surprised by this, in fact I had a feeling there would be an announcement soon as we get closer to full integration.

Regarding "preferential treatment," here we go again. I am sure it is what is the most profitable and most logical for the integrated route system, not a matter of the favored child situation.

I recall along time ago CO was once awarded EWR-EZE but did not launch the service since their economy at that time was in total freefall. Eventually they were stripped of the award. Glad to see it finally materialize. We knew it was only going to be a matter of time.
 
C010T3
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 pm

That makes a lot of sense. I hope that EWR-GIG is relaunched, so that UA can finally drop the GRU-GIG tag, which is the last reminiscent of an era.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:54 pm

Wow! Wasn't expecting this so soon!

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
It seems like EWR is getting preferential treatment to IAD in the new UA...

Not true. The only setback that IAD folks have to deal with is IAD-AMS/CDG on CO 757s. IAD gets two NEW international routes this summer: IAD-MAN/DUB.

Also IAD gets 757s and domestic widebodies to the west coast. EWR gets none of that, yet.
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 6):
That makes a lot of sense. I hope that EWR-GIG is relaunched, so that UA can finally drop the GRU-GIG tag, which is the last reminiscent of an era.

That would be the next logical step. I would think they could operate EWR-GIG along with IAD-GIG though.
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klwright69
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:54 pm

It will be good to give AA some competition (over at JFK). Didn't DL fly JFK-EZE also? When was that?

The market may be able to support IAD-EZE and EWR-EZE. But isn't access to EZE quite limited still? Or is that in the past?

We may see a return of EWR-SCL

[Edited 2011-11-08 06:57:14]
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):

It seems like EWR is getting preferential treatment to IAD in the new UA...
Quoting ScottB (Reply 1):
Seems more like they're just following the money...

  
This may not be the last IAD-EWR move we see. I've thought since the merger was announced that UA would move some of IAD's international traffic to buttress the EWR superhub.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 4):
I thought IAD-EZE was a money maker.

It may well be. But the money's apparently bigger at EWR, and UA hasn't acquired any additional widebodies recently.

Jim
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mogandoCI
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
This may not be the last IAD-EWR move we see. I've thought since the merger was announced that UA would move some of IAD's international traffic to buttress the EWR superhub.

on top of that, it's also in response to strong competition in NYC while UA pretty much has IAD dominated (albeit, with an odd combination of RJs and 777s)

and yes, I agree with another poster that if resources permit, UA should schedule more domestic WB out of EWR, even as repositioning flights. something like FCO-EWR-SFO-KIX on a 763.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:03 pm

"The route is just moving back to where it began (NY), UA couldn't compete in the NY market so they withdrew their JFK-GRU-GIG , JFK-EZE-MVD , JFK-LHR and JFK-NRT flights. Now with the merger with CO they are in a more competitive position, and the route is moving back.

Would love if they brought back the Montevideo tag, either to EWR-EZE or IAH-EZE."


Except its moving back to a completely different airport, with a completely different merged airline, in a completely different time.

Just a bit of a stretch.

Either way, look for more switches in either direction as EWR has more O&D traffic and IAD is just a better connecting facility (no delays/slots)

I am sure that UA will realize what DL and AA realized a long time ago . . .the connecting pax from OMA can go through a non delay-prone, non slotted hub while the int'l flight that needs the high yielding O&D passenger can leave from New York or Newark with some feed from the domestic side.
 
C010T3
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:05 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
along with IAD-GIG

But IAD-GIG was dropped, and US has picked up the traffic with CLT-GIG. It's either EWR-GIG or nothing.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):

That would be the next logical step. I would think they could operate EWR-GIG along with IAD-GIG though.

They can only do one or the other, they are limited by their route authorities.
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Except its moving back to a completely different airport, with a completely different merged airline, in a completely different time.

Just a bit of a stretch.

Not really, remember route authorities whether it's NYC-London, NYC-Mexico City, NYC-Brazil consider EWR and JFK one market. Which is why CO was able to move Eastern's former JFK-MEX route to EWR, and why even though there's only one US carrier on JFK-MEX (DL) AA still can't fly the route.

When UA sold their NY-London route authorities to DL it included EWR, UA operated both EWR and JFK to LHR with Pan Am's route authorities between London and New York. Same with Tokyo, UA was operating both EWR-NRT and JFK-NRT with Pan Am's New York-Tokyo route authority.

It's not a stretch legally, emotionally for some is another issue.

[Edited 2011-11-08 07:22:26]
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:21 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):
But IAD-GIG was dropped, and US has picked up the traffic with CLT-GIG

I believe UA is leasing US Brazil route authorities which US is utilizing for their CLT-GIG flights.
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tommy767
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):

Ah, did not know that. Thanks.

Also the recently discussed IAD-MAN/DUB are loaded on UA.com.

IAD-MAD still shows up as an Aer Lingus flight
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D L X
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 5):
Regarding "preferential treatment," here we go again. I am sure it is what is the most profitable and most logical for the integrated route system, not a matter of the favored child situation.

It IS preferential treatment, and it IS the most profitable choice (likely). The two go hand in hand. Think about it: would you run an airline where you preferred making more money or making less?

The fact is, the new UA thinks it can make more money at EWR than at IAD, and so IAD will be slowly cannibalized. That is a preference, and the anger of Washingtonians should be understandable.

(Sounds like a bad idea long term though. With the US/DL slot swap at DCA, Washington is becoming a Star Alliance city beyond any doubt. UA should build upon this loyalty.)

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 7):
The only setback that IAD folks have to deal with is IAD-AMS/CDG on CO 757s.

That's a pretty major setback, don't you think?
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
I believe UA is leasing US Brazil route authorities which US is utilizing for their CLT-GIG flights.

Actually, they were supposed to fund US's proposed CLT-GRU, but they have not been able to guarantee convenient slots for their service yet. There is no shortage of frequencies for further services to GIG, so UA may expand at any time.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
IAD-MAD still shows up as an Aer Lingus flight

Supposedly that contract was renewed for another year, which I was surprised by, that route eventually will be on UA metal.
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tommy767
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
That's a pretty major setback, don't you think?

If there are enough diversions this winter I highly doubt they will be operated by 757s next year.

IAD-DUB/MAN are within the range of the 757 and UA has never operated these routings before. This is a plus for Washingtonians -- new nonstops to destinations in Europe.

And again, once EWR gets 777 or 767s between EWR-LAX/SFO and IAD gets them taken away, I'll believe that IAD is getting whipped by EWR.
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
They can only do one or the other, they are limited by their route authorities.

There are 14 GIG-eligible frequencies waiting to be used.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
The fact is, the new UA thinks it can make more money at EWR than at IAD, and so IAD will be slowly cannibalized. That is a preference, and the anger of Washingtonians should be understandable.

So a couple of flights go to EWR and all of a sudden IAD is being cannibalized. Are you sure!!
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):
So a couple of flights go to EWR and all of a sudden IAD is being cannibalized. Are you sure!!

I certainly have cause for concern, do I not? Not only are we suffering 757s to large market cities ex-IAD, but other 777 routes have been downgauged to 767s, if my memory is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Not only are we suffering 757s to large market cities ex-IAD, but other 777 routes have been downgauged to 767s, if my memory is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Which routes have been downgraded to 767s from 777s?
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UAL777UK
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
Which routes have been downgraded to 767s from 777s?

Like you STT757 I am struggling on that one.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Not only are we suffering 757s to large market cities ex-IAD

AMS and CDG are ST strongholds.

IAD is getting MAN next year on UA, okay its a 757 but its a new route.

IAD is going nowhere for UA.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
The fact is, the new UA thinks it can make more money at EWR than at IAD, and so IAD will be slowly cannibalized. That is a preference, and the anger of Washingtonians should be understandable.

I think the question is how much IAD will be "slowly cannibalized." Surely, you aren't suggesting that IAD won't have service to Paris or Tokyo in 5 or 10 years, are you? EZE is a smart move, and many of us predicted it. But there's very little other fruit hanging that low.
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IADLHR
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:38 pm

What a bummer. However, in the back of my mind, I was wondering how long this flight would last.

I was planning to go IAD-EZE in April or May. Now, I will just advance my dates to take this flight, one more time, before it disappears.

I wonder if, in the future, it will return. I sure hope so.
 
IADLHR
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:43 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
I am sure that UA will realize what DL and AA realized a long time ago . . .the connecting pax from OMA can go through a non delay-prone, non slotted hub while the int'l flight that needs the high yielding O&D passenger can leave from New York or Newark with some feed from the domestic side.

It would be nice if UA started OMA-IAD. I know some people, myself included, who are beyond fed up with the delays of OMA-EWR and trying to connect to Europe ex-EWR, with long weather, air traffic delays, you name it. A couple of times we had, intentionally planned 8 hr layover at EWR to make the connecting EWR-TXL flight. Both times, we just barely made the EWR-TXL flights.
 
IADLHR
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:48 pm

By the way, how long has the IAD-EZE flight been operating? If memory serves, it is quite awhile.
 
codc10
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
I certainly have cause for concern, do I not? Not only are we suffering 757s to large market cities ex-IAD, but other 777 routes have been downgauged to 767s, if my memory is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're delusional if you think UA is going to draw down the IAD hub. While the NYC market may be higher-yielding and more profitable, UA is highly committed to the market and new routes are coming. 757 or otherwise, new service is new service.

A somewhat analogous situation is AF dropping CDG-EWR. It is well-settled that JFK and EWR do not serve precisely the same customer base (though there is substantial overlap) and there has been no announcement that DL is picking up the service. In this case, UA has actually increased overall capacity in the market and improved frequency. I don't see it as a clear sign that UA is planning to "slowly cannibalize IAD", as you say, at all.
 
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
Which routes have been downgraded to 767s from 777s?
Quoting ual777uk (Reply 25):
Like you STT757 I am struggling on that one.

Again, as I said, I'm not sure and I could be wrong. I thought I had read that in the cross-fleeting threads a few months ago.

Even if there haven't been other downgauges (yet), it doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned that the Newark is going to be prioritized over IAD.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 25):
AMS and CDG are ST strongholds.

So? Washington is a Star Alliance stronghold. I don't see why UA would cede all that traffic to SkyTeam. (And yes, if I have to go to Paris now, I'm going to begrudgingly go outside Star to take the AF A380.)

Additionally, New York is NOT a Star Alliance stronghold.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 25):
IAD is going nowhere for UA.

I sure hope you're right.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Even if there haven't been other downgauges (yet), it doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned that the Newark is going to be prioritized over IAD.

It already is, EWR handles more passengers, has more destinations, more employees, larger catchment area and way better infrastructure than IAD.
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D L X
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
It already is, EWR handles more passengers, has more destinations, more employees, larger catchment area and way better infrastructure than IAD.

I *think* you're agreeing with me, but I'm not sure.
 
c680
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:53 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
EWR...way better infrastructure than IAD.

Not from an ATC / airspace / Pilot perspective.

[Edited 2011-11-08 10:56:14]
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STT757
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 34):
Not from an ATC / airspace / Pilot perspective.

Is that because of infrastructure or fewer flights.
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tommy767
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
Is that because of infrastructure or fewer flights.

that's a clear win for IAD. EWR has horrible ATC and delays. When the wind blows the wrong way, everything gets screwed up. Cause for this? Conjestion. It's in UA's best interest to move the excessive amount of regional jet traffic down to IAD where there is more room to expand.
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jfk777
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:07 pm

What took them so long ? AA has been flying 777 from JFK to EZE for years with people actually paying for First Class seats.
 
BC77008
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:14 pm

Funny how United Continental's press release makes no mention of discontinuing the IAD-EZE flight. Only mentions the new service between EWR and EZE and also mentions this is just another example of how the merger is benefiting customers by taking them to the many places they want to go! http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1627749&highlight=
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:02 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
Even if there haven't been other downgauges (yet), it doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned that the Newark is going to be prioritized over IAD.

But how can they "prioritize" EWR over IAD, when EWR cannot grow? Whenver UA wants to add a flight at EWR, they have to delete another flight.

EWR got one IAD flight (EZE), while IAD got two of EWR's flights (DUB and MAN), so how is that prioritizing EWR over IAD?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
Is that because of infrastructure or fewer flights.

EWR's infrastructure from an ATC standpoint blows. The two primary runways are too closely spaced together. You have airspace interference from other nearby airports. And worst of all, there's no cost effective way to EVER grow EWR. It will be stuck at it's current size in perpetuity regardless of what NextGen modernization may come.
 
gullairACK
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:19 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 38):
Only mentions the new service between EWR and EZE and also mentions this is just another example of how the merger is benefiting customers by taking them to the many places they want to go!



They clearly have the data that suggests "where people want to go" and have made the appropriate change. This is a customer benefit. Not necessarily the Washington area customers, but for the greater number of customers. This knowledge is earned by having served the route, not throwing a dart at a map. Give them some credit.
 
tsnamm
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:52 pm

I thin

Quoting GullAirACK (Reply 40):
GullAirACK From Ireland, joined Feb 2011, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted Tue Nov 8 2011 15:19:36 your local time (24 minutes 48 secs ago) and read 261 times:


Quoting BC77008 (Reply 38):
Only mentions the new service between EWR and EZE and also mentions this is just another example of how the merger is benefiting customers by taking them to the many places they want to go!



They clearly have the data that suggests "where people want to go" and have made the appropriate change. This is a customer benefit. Not necessarily the Washington area customers, but for the greater number of customers. This knowledge is earned by having served the route, not throwing a dart at a map. Give them some credit.



I think the point is that UA are cannablizing a flight from 1 hub to another as far as the EZE flt is concerned, not "adding" anything. The DUB and MAN fkights by contrast are in addition to the EWR flights which are not going anywhere.
 
BC77008
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:56 pm

Quoting GullAirACK (Reply 40):


They clearly have the data that suggests "where people want to go" and have made the appropriate change. This is a customer benefit. Not necessarily the Washington area customers, but for the greater number of customers. This knowledge is earned by having served the route, not throwing a dart at a map. Give them some credit.

I was speaking rhetorically.
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C010T3
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
EWR got one IAD flight (EZE), while IAD got two of EWR's flights (DUB and MAN), so how is that prioritizing EWR over IAD?



Exactly! UA's IAD-EZE must have had a great NYC-EZE O&D component, so it is only natural to shift if to EWR, where almost all connecting opportunities will still be available. Shifting 1x DUB and 1x MAN is recognizing that they have a greater component of connecting traffic, which can be done at IAD more efficiently.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 41):
The DUB and MAN fkights by contrast are in addition to the EWR flights which are not going anywhere.

Isn't EWR-DUB seeing a frequency reduction?
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c680
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:09 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
Is that because of infrastructure or fewer flights.

I would say infrastructure. IAD has plenty of flights - especially the morning and afternoon rush. But IAD has four runways, and parking is between one runway and the other three, so it works better from a ground flow point of view too.

As others have said, airspace in the NYC area is much tighter. IAD has lots more airspace to play with wich really helps keep the flow going in IMC.

I think the combined CO/UA management will see the benefits of IAD once the east coast gets hit with a few storms. Chances are that IAD will perform better than EWR.

IAD was really only "full" when both Indy and UA were operating full strength. An RJ takes up the same space as an Airbus, and man oh man did Independence have a ton of flights!

IAD has room to grow - plans to add a 5th runway.

But back on topic: I fin it interesting that the south american flights have come and gone a few cycles at IAD. I suspect things will all come back over time (with A350 / B787)
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nutsaboutplanes
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
I believe UA is leasing US Brazil route authorities which US is utilizing for their CLT-GIG flights.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):But IAD-GIG was dropped, and US has picked up the traffic with CLT-GIG

It is my understanding that the UA owned frequency that is on lease to US will be returned in 2015 I believe. At that point, the frequency obtained in the US/ DL slot swap from DL will replace the frequency that US will return to UA. This is just one more reason why the slot swap was so important to US Airways.
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
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shamrock604
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
Isn't EWR-DUB seeing a frequency reduction?

Yes, both MAN and DUB will now have 1 x daily to EWR and 1 x Daily to IAD.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:55 am

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 41):
The DUB and MAN fkights by contrast are in addition to the EWR flights which are not going anywhere.

But with a 50% reduction in capacity to both.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
I am sure that UA will realize what DL and AA realized a long time ago . . .the connecting pax from OMA can go through a non delay-prone, non slotted hub while the int'l flight that needs the high yielding O&D passenger can leave from New York or Newark with some feed from the domestic side.

I'm pretty certain that is what we're seeing. After all MAN-IAD would be relatively small as a stand-alone O&D route, but it operates in order to feed SFO, LAX, MIA, MCO and a million other places. All those passengers were previously routed through EWR
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codc10
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Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: UA Moving IAD-EZE To EWR

Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:02 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 48):
But with a 50% reduction in capacity to both.

Which matches the average ratio between originating and flow pax at the EWR hub on flights to Europe.

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