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Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:29 pm

This article appeared in Business Week:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...y-to-swell-emirates-style-hub.html

Some quotes:

Quote:

Finnair Oyj, building Helsinki into a hub offering the shortest flights from Europe to northeast Asia, said it’s seeking a partner with which to operate the services while pursuing local takeovers to boost Nordic traffic.

Finnair is keen on an Asian accord with antitrust immunity that would permit joint sales and revenue sharing, similar to ventures between European and U.S. carriers across the Atlantic, Chief Executive Officer Mika Vehvilaeinen said in an interview.


Bring on the A380s! (But I may be reading too much into this...)
 
N62NA
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:32 pm

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:45 pm

Quote:
The carrier, which is almost 56 percent owned by the Finnish government, serves 11 cities in the Asia-Pacific region, including three in Japan and three in China, where it will add flights to Chongqing on the Yangtze River next May.

Including the UAE in 'Asia Pacific' is stretching the boundary a little I feel.


Dan  
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The Coachman
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:45 pm

They'd better fix up their transfer operation at HEL in conjunction with immigration if they're going to do this.

I heard of a family who had a 90 minute connection for another European destination (allegedly legal), get stuck in queues for 90 minutes, their flight is being called, they sought assistance from the Finnish officials who did nothing and their baggage was removed from their flight. Needless to say, they are not happy and won't fly Finnair or go through Helsinki again.

Mind you, I'm sure that happens everywhere around the world and it's telling that places like HKG, SIN that don't require transit immigration etc do better.
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FunFlying
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:36 pm

Go Finnair, go, my beloved airline!

But the fact is as much as I'd love to see an Emirates-style Finnair-hub at Helsinki, it's a hard task. Finavia, (Finavia Corporation is a service company that maintains a network of 25 airports in Finland and the air navigation system covering the entire country) is one of the big brakes. The airport at Helsinki, as conveniently small as it is should be expanded a lot. It seems that every expansion being made is way too small already when brought to use. The terminal is like a long too narrow tube and not perfectly suitable for hub operations.

HEL needs a whole new modern terminal for long haul suitable operations. Finnair's traffic already is highly restricted at peak hours due terminal capacity (and lack of jetways).

-FF

[Edited 2011-11-11 13:36:49]
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brilondon
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:50 pm

Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia? I have been to HEL and found it to be a nice airport but I don't see it as a place I would want to spend time transferring flights.
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flyby519
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:58 pm

I hope they can do it, but there is more to EK's success than the geographic position of DXB. The Finnish government needs to be 100% behind this concept, and do everything they can to promote growth in their hub operation.
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airbazar
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia?

If anything it's too far south  
No airport in Europe makes for a convenient connection between N.America and East Asia.
It is however well positioned for connections between S.America and E.Asia, between Europe and E.Asia, and even between N.America, Central/South Asia, and for the right price even SE Asia.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!


AY will come back. Now is not the time, but when the economy turns around, I bet it'll happen.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 3):
They'd better fix up their transfer operation at HEL in conjunction with immigration if they're going to do this.

I heard of a family who had a 90 minute connection for another European destination (allegedly legal), get stuck in queues for 90 minutes, their flight is being called, they sought assistance from the Finnish officials who did nothing and their baggage was removed from their flight. Needless to say, they are not happy and won't fly Finnair or go through Helsinki again.

That is when your final destination is another Schengen country. Immigration is done in the first Schengen airport since further flights are treated like domestic flights - no immigration control at final destination.

It is the same if I for instance would go to Adelaide. I would very likely transit in SYD and catch a domestic flight to Adelaide - after doing immigration in SYD. I wouldn't count on 90 minutes transfer time in SYD in that case. Especially since I would likely be on the backmost seat on a Qantas A380 and be last in a 500 souls long immigration queue from just that plane.

You may try GDG instead, in case you for instance is going to Spain. I think that nobody would blame the Frenchmen that you would need more than 90 minutes for immigration control and physical transfer to the appropriate departure terminal for your continued journey.

You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do. The family, which you mention - or their travel agency - just did bad planning since immigration wise you must look upon the Schengen area as "one country".

Just like Australia is one country - and incidentally about the same size as the Schengen area, maybe even larger?

Only if they bought the ticket as one Finnair ticket covering all segments, and they bough it themselves directly from Finnair, then they can blame Finnair for not doing their homework.
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by738
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia? I have been to HEL and found it to be a nice airport but I don't see it as a place I would want to spend time transferring flights.

So far the only piece of common sense. And in my opinion the natural and only way things will end up..... It aint no EK
 
vincewy
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):

That is when your final destination is another Schengen country.

This is correct, same at CDG or any major airport at EU, transit between

Schengen and another Schengen country - no immigration check
non-Schengen and another non-Schengen country - no immigration check
Schengen and non-Schengen country or vice versa - immigration check

It's passengers' responsibility to check their MCT.

HEL is indeed position very well (especially Indian subcontinent - N America and Europe - East Asia) except for Australia, AY has advertised very competitive fares in Toronto for YYZ-HEL-HKG.
 
Econojetter
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:43 am

I think this just mostly means that AY is looking at new (also smaller and non-traditional) spokes for transit traffic (which EK was the first to do on a large scale, i.e. connecting cities like NCL, BHX, HAM in EK's case). I don't think it really envisions itself growing to the scale of EK. As some have already pointed out in this thread, EK-sized aspirations require a major boost in the supporting facilities at HEL. In addition, it is also questionable whether AY can commit to this kind of strategy in the way EK has, e.g. swooping in with a launch of daily services even on routes with relatively long stage lengths. Would AY's fleet and staff resources as well as costs and policies allow network expansion in that manner?
 
N62NA
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!


AY will come back. Now is not the time, but when the economy turns around, I bet it'll happen.

I hope so... and this time with NONSTOP service instead of that 1 stop 757 they used to bring in.
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:27 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do. The family, which you mention - or their travel agency - just did bad planning since immigration wise you must look upon the Schengen area as "one country".

Didn't understand the initial argument but as AY advertises 35min transfers that's a bit too much. I hear that they have dedicated staff to meet travelers with short connection from both Finnair and Finvavia side. The "service angels" (don't know if the Finavia staff have any special name) are to usher the travelers through the airport. Those with less than one hour transfer can use the fast track security if their flight needs it.

Obviously there's very little that can be done to speed up immigration although I know it can be a pain (I stood in line for immigration for more than an hour in HKT in a terminal with very poor air-con). In Helsinki all Schengen passport holders can use the self-service machines for crossing the border which I think can speed up things quite a bit (it took me less than a minute to get through though it was a rush hour).

As to the original topic, I fail to understand what "EK-style" means. Finland doesn't have a drop of oil and very few immigrant workers so I don't see how this could happen. In other parts I don't see many differences. EK of course has a wider spectrum of destinations while AY focuses on Europe and Asia with occasional N-American destination. For both airliners their revenue comes from transferring passengers rather than point-to-point travelers. Both have four stars with Skytrax.

I do see AY expanding even more because every airshow system on most Europe-Asia flights are advertisement for them. Now if the Finnish government sold their share to IAG and HEL would become their Asia hub with LHR being the N-American and MAD the south one the growth would speed up quite a lot.

[Edited 2011-11-12 00:30:39]
 
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Mikey86
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:49 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):

Including the UAE in 'Asia Pacific' is stretching the boundary a little I feel.


Dan

Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.
mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:59 am

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
As to the original topic, I fail to understand what "EK-style" means. Finland doesn't have a drop of oil and very few immigrant workers so I don't see how this could happen.

I do not think EK's model is based on oil, and not even on the many migrant workers in Dubai. It is based on good location and bold strategy to server many destinations with one stop, low per-seat costs due to using large aircraft and cheap labor.

Finnair is already in many ways on the same plan. They connect many places in Europe to many places in Asia, with pretty much optimal routing.

They are not as good in using cheap labor as EK is, though. But they do use some amount of workers from the destination countries.

If they want to "become an EK-style hub" I guess this would mean a change in the scale more so than in strategy. Even more destinations in Asia, larger aircraft to destinations in Europe. Maybe some additional destinations from North America. Co-operation with some Asian players for further connections.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do.

Problems occur in every airport, people can miss flights. But I have found Helsinki-Vantaa procedures on par with the fastest other airports in the world. There are occasional security queues, but they are relatively small compared to many places. The airport is so far small, you do not need to transit between terminals. Passport checks are in general faster than anywhere else. YMMV.
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:04 pm

Finnair need to bring their image back to a more confident scheme before embarking on such expansion.

It looks like they couldn't afford a proper livery designer this time round and coloured paint was considered too expensive. It's not giving out the right message. Also looking at recent trip reports the food onboard looks awful.

I disagree that Helsinki airport needs expanding. If you are transferring between international flights you want the gates to be near each other. HEL is big enough as it is.

AY was a great airline.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:21 pm

I admire Finnair for having dreams. Fact is they have managed far better than neighbour SAS that can not even handle its own market properly and is struggling with internal tensions and politics. Finnair has taken advantage of this and is now far ahead of SAS in every aspect, no doubt about that. But the comparison with Emirates is a bit far fetched. Emirates is after all a very special airline and has a much larger airport able to handle transfers in a better way. Finnair and Helsinki Airport are both very small by comparison. But you must have ambitions and Finnair has had success where SAS has failed in all respects. Being overconfident like SAS has a price, now the smaller neighbour has taken a large portion of traffic that should have flown nonstop from both Stockholm and Oslo but now goes via HEL and not CPH. Congratulations Finnair!!  
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Luftymatt
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.
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airbazar
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.

The Middle East is not a continent.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
Only if they bought the ticket as one Finnair ticket covering all segments, and they bough it themselves directly from Finnair, then they can blame Finnair for not doing their homework.

And therein lies the problem. My information was that they were on the same AY ticket. Hence their frustration.

I agree it's like transiting CDG or FRA or wherever, however, the issue here is the connection was allowed by AY and it was not assisted by either its agents or Finnish officials.
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Tolmachevo
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.

And the Middle East is part of Asia, same as Eastern Europe is part of the continent of Europe.
 
WROORD
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 22):
Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.
And the Middle East is part of Asia, same as Eastern Europe is part of the continent of Europe.

Exactly, I thought that schools in UK did a better job in teaching geography...

LuftyMatt get your geography in order if you wan to be a pilot....
 
Antidote
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:30 pm

Uh, guys,PlymSpotter just said that it was a stretch to include U.A.E. in Asia-Pacific, not Asia generally. Asia-Pacific usually includes Southeast Asia, East Asia and Oceania and sometimes Russia and North American countries that border the Pacific. Perhaps he should have said that all of Asia isn't normally included in definitions of Asia-Pacific.
 
us330
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia? I have been to HEL and found it to be a nice airport but I don't see it as a place I would want to spend time transferring flights.

Not from east (and sometimes just west) of the Mississippi. Travel time is very competitive with flying west.
 
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huaiwei
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 22):
And the Middle East is part of Asia, same as Eastern Europe is part of the continent of Europe.

Not entirely correct either. The Middle East spans across two continents (some say three if Turkey is included and if it is treated as a European country), namely Asia and Africa (and Eastern Europe, btw, is not necessarily part of the European continent alone either, depending on how you threat Asian Russia or Asian Kazakhstan, etc). The preferred term is Southwest Asia or Western Asia (used by the UN) as a region of the Asian continent.

Saying the Middle East is part of Asia is like saying the Asia Pacific is part of Asia, when the later includes countries all around the Pacific Ocean spanning four continents. It is not wrong, but it is not accurate either.

[Edited 2011-11-12 09:42:13]
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zweiBierebitte
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Didn't understand the initial argument but as AY advertises 35min transfers that's a bit too much. I hear that they have dedicated staff to meet travelers with short connection from both Finnair and Finvavia side. The "service angels" (don't know if the Finavia staff have any special name) are to usher the travelers through the airport. Those with less than one hour transfer can use the fast track security if their flight needs it.


HEL has a lot to learn from MUC in this case, one of the best connecting airports IMO. A few years back I flew IAD-MUC-NCE with a 35 minute connection in MUC. We left an hour late from Dulles and by the time we landed in MUC, I only had a 20 minute connection. Sure enough, someone from Lufthansa met me at the gate and escorted me to a sort of "secret" passport control room downstairs that's only available for passengers like me in a rush. I was done with passport control and an extra security screening in less than 2 minutes. Even with a 20 minute international to Schengen connection, I was still one of the first ones to board the flight to NCE. Incredible!  
 
airbazar
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 25):
Not from east (and sometimes just west) of the Mississippi. Travel time is very competitive with flying west.

You're joking. Why don't you play with this for a bit.
http://www.gcmap.com

JFK-HEL-NRT for example is 33% further than JFK-NRT, 28% further than JFK-ORD-NRT and 16% longer than JFK-LAX-NRT. HEL is not even remotely competitive with anything in N.America.
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 22):
And the Middle East is part of Asia,


Only in people's minds. In the purely physical world, geologically and tectonically , the middle east isn't part of Asia and neither is India, far eastern Russia, and a good portion of Japan. Also there is no distinction between Europe and Asia as they are one continent.

The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:17 pm

Great idea; all they need is no unions and massive government implicit and explicit backing. Should be no problem at all 
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HELyes
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
HEL is not even remotely competitive with anything in N.America.
JFK-India routes go via Finland, JFK-HEL-BOM would be optimal.

Few passengers cares for the great circle mapper. Many Finns travel to Asia via LHR and other hubs west of HEL though it doesn't make any sense on the map.

[Edited 2011-11-12 10:29:56]
 
N62NA
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
Quoting us330 (Reply 25):
Not from east (and sometimes just west) of the Mississippi. Travel time is very competitive with flying west.

You're joking. Why don't you play with this for a bit.
http://www.gcmap.com

JFK-HEL-NRT for example is 33% further than JFK-NRT, 28% further than JFK-ORD-NRT and 16% longer than JFK-LAX-NRT. HEL is not even remotely competitive with anything in N.America.

But if you take winds into account....  
 
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:29 pm

I think people are missing the real point, quite surprising to at least for a Finn, of the article.

Finnair has for many years built the gateway between Europe-Asia -strategy. Call it Emirates-or-what-ever-strategy, that has been there for years for Finnair.

Now, what I find interesting about the article is, that the CEO is openly talking about possibilities of mergers, in general as well as hinting this could the way for AY, as well. I, at least, do not remember such official, high-level comment from AY management before regarding the topic. Is there something boiling underneath we don't know?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):

Finnair has never said they´re interested in America-Asia link, but America-india -link. That, indeed makes sense.

okAY

[Edited 2011-11-12 12:31:08]
 
dank
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):

Quoting us330 (Reply 25):
Not from east (and sometimes just west) of the Mississippi. Travel time is very competitive with flying west.

You're joking. Why don't you play with this for a bit.
http://www.gcmap.com

JFK-HEL-NRT for example is 33% further than JFK-NRT, 28% further than JFK-ORD-NRT and 16% longer than JFK-LAX-NRT. HEL is not even remotely competitive with anything in N.America.

NRT isn't exactly in southeast Asia... Going from NYC to say BKK, flight time is about equal going through Europe and or East Asia as I recall, but the timing of flights is a bit better going through East Asia because there are generally shorter layovers (and HKG is generally a better transit than NRT because it is significantly closer to SE Asian destinations than Japan).
 
us330
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
JFK-HEL-NRT for example is 33% further than JFK-NRT, 28% further than JFK-ORD-NRT and 16% longer than JFK-LAX-NRT. HEL is not even remotely competitive with anything in N.America.

Just did--
JFK-NRT-BKK is 9634 miles, JFK-HEL-BKK is 9033 miles
jfk-lax-nrt-bkk is 10815,
JFK-NRT-SIN is 10009 miles, JFK-HEL-SIN is 9879 miles
jfk-lax-nrt-sin is 11250

HEL is almost exactly on the nonstop flight path from JFK to India--JFK-HEL-DEL is only 200 miles longer than JFK-DEL, and JFK-HEL-BOM and JFK-BOM are identical.
 
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HELyes
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 33):
Finnair has for many years built the gateway between Europe-Asia -strategy. Call it Emirates-or-what-ever-strategy, that has been there for years for Finnair.

Yes the strategy has been there for a long time, this year AY will carry over 1,5 million passengers between Europe and Asia. The question is how much they can grow, alone or with a partner(s).

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 33):
Is there something boiling underneath we don't know?

As Lucce said above AY joining IAG wouldn't be a surprise.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 33):
Finnair has never said they´re interested in America-Asia link, but America-india -link. That, indeed makes sense.

Yes US East Coast - India could work for AY, but that would just be a side path. They have all their eggs in one basket, they will survive or fall with Europe-Asia traffic.

[Edited 2011-11-12 15:12:01]
 
airbazar
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 31):
JFK-India routes go via Finland, JFK-HEL-BOM would be optimal.

BOM is not SE Asia either  
Quoting HELyes (Reply 31):
Many Finns travel to Asia via LHR and other hubs west of HEL though it doesn't make any sense on the map.

LHR-HEL is not JFK-HEL. The backtracking within Europe is minimal for such a long haul trip. It happens here too. Many people go all the way down to ATL to connect to TATL flights.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):
But if you take winds into account....

What about the winds? You have to travel in both directions.

Quoting dank (Reply 34):
NRT isn't exactly in southeast Asia...

Fair enough. But it is where the market fro the US East Coast is. Southeast Asia is not nearly as big a market as East Asia, frm East of the Mississippi.

Quoting okAY (Reply 33):
Finnair has never said they´re interested in America-Asia link, but America-india -link. That, indeed makes sense

And rightfuly so. I didn't imply that they did either. I was simply responding to reply #5. Even for India they're going against the likes of EK/QR/LH/AF/BA/LX/KL/DL. Can they do it. I think that's a tall order.
 
tayser
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:53 am

wrong thread....................... delete me

[Edited 2011-11-12 18:54:53]
 
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HELyes
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):

BOM is not SE Asia either

The article was about AY and Asia generally. In SE Asia AY only serve BKK and SIN, the NE corner (Japan, mainland China, HKG and Korea) is their main market in Asia.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
LHR-HEL is not JFK-HEL. The backtracking within Europe is minimal for such a long haul trip. It happens here too. Many people go all the way down to ATL to connect to TATL flights.

Er... Perhaps I'm just too tired to follow this thread   ...just meant that for many the ticket price is more important than the routing, from Finland to Asia or US to Asia. And HEL has the benefits of a smallish hub.

Anyways, as said North-America hardly will play any big role on Finnair's map, though I would be happy to see more connections from HEL to West.
 
brilondon
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:12 am

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.



The middle east is not a continent and is part of Asia, unless you include Turkey which is in Europe as well as Asia, but for what it is worth it is basically part of Asia. Now you could argue that the middle east may be more a part of Africa than Asia but it is definitely not part of Europe.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:46 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 40):
The middle east is not a continent and is part of Asia, unless you include Turkey which is in Europe as well as Asia, but for what it is worth it is basically part of Asia. Now you could argue that the middle east may be more a part of Africa than Asia but it is definitely not part of Europe.


Just to go a bit further, "Middle East" is a political rather than geological term. It exists because of a (fairly) common cultural/linguistic heritage in the region. It covers several continents (think Turkey, Egypt etc) and is simply a convenient geo-political label. In this regard it is similar to Oceania: Australia is a continent in itself, but that leaves NZ and the South Pacific adrift (excuse the pun )
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dank
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
Quoting dank (Reply 34):
NRT isn't exactly in southeast Asia...

Fair enough. But it is where the market fro the US East Coast is. Southeast Asia is not nearly as big a market as East Asia, frm East of the Mississippi.

I don't disagree, but your example was in response to a poster discussing flight times to SE Asia. The market isn't as big in SE Asia as it is in NE Asia (though it will be growing as the economies in Vietnam and Thailand continue to grow), just was pointing out for that market with the right connection times, going through Europe could work (One of those areas of the world where there are almost no nonstops from the US).
 
okay
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):

I don't want to start splitting hairs, but indeed in the reply you originally replied to, they were talking about SE Asia, and it was you who took NRT (NE Asia) as an example... Asia is a big area, surely NRT via Helsinki does not work from America, but so has AY never claimed, either.

okAY
 
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teme82
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:33 am

Now if IAG would like to buy AY I would like to have IAG's shares in 1:2 ratio!
But I don't think that will be happening anytime soon...
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:41 am

Quoting teme82 (Reply 44):
Now if IAG would like to buy AY

I would like to see AY become their own group and buy other carriers to form a "SAS" for OW. Let IAG focus on TAP, or Italy.
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mdavies06
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Thread starter):
Quote:

Finnair Oyj, building Helsinki into a hub offering the shortest flights from Europe to northeast Asia, said it%u2019s seeking a partner with which to operate the services while pursuing local takeovers to boost Nordic traffic.

Finnair is keen on an Asian accord with antitrust immunity that would permit joint sales and revenue sharing, similar to ventures between European and U.S. carriers across the Atlantic, Chief Executive Officer Mika Vehvilaeinen said in an interview.

I wonder who they look to for this 'ATI'. Maybe they have in mind JL, CX and QF? I wonder if BA / QF will be willing to work with AY. I can see AY going it alone. I don't think they need more partners to continue with their current models. I think their business scale is large enough on its own. But I can see JL pretty keen on forming an ATI with AY and BA together. CX not so much. CX can stand up on its own.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
And rightfuly so. I didn't imply that they did either. I was simply responding to reply #5. Even for India they're going against the likes of EK/QR/LH/AF/BA/LX/KL/DL. Can they do it. I think that's a tall order.
Quoting HELyes (Reply 39):
The article was about AY and Asia generally. In SE Asia AY only serve BKK and SIN, the NE corner (Japan, mainland China, HKG and Korea) is their main market in Asia.

HEL being the location it is, it is a prime location for Europe - North Asia. The further north you go in East Asia (PEK/NRT etc) the BIGGER the advantage AY has over EK/QR/EY. Further this advantage plays out even more if you consider the fact that these are the biggest business hubs of East Asia. This traffic flow is huge and growing fast - Japan is one of the biggest premium market in the world. China the fastest growing in the world.

EK/QR/EY can fight it out for the low yield tourist traffic heading to BKK, HKT etc.

For flights heading west from East Asia, many see the future of China-Africa or China-South America market being a gold mine and how this translate to many new markets for EK/QR/EY, but really the biggest market is still Europe.

India to Europe or US is obviously one of EK/QR/EY bread-and-butter markets, but going via HEL is not a huge detour.

Quoting zweiBierebitte (Reply 27):
HEL has a lot to learn from MUC in this case, one of the best connecting airports IMO. A few years back I flew IAD-MUC-NCE with a 35 minute connection in MUC. We left an hour late from Dulles and by the time we landed in MUC, I only had a 20 minute connection. Sure enough, someone from Lufthansa met me at the gate and escorted me to a sort of "secret" passport control room downstairs that's only available for passengers like me in a rush. I was done with passport control and an extra security screening in less than 2 minutes. Even with a 20 minute international to Schengen connection, I was still one of the first ones to board the flight to NCE. Incredible!

I have been on a flight where people made a LHR-HEL (delayed arrival) and HEL-BKK connection in 5 mins gate to gate un-assisted...Thats the beauty of an airport like HEL. I hope it can keep it that way.
 
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teme82
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RE: Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub

Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 45):
I would like to see AY become their own group and buy other carriers to form a "SAS" for OW. Let IAG focus on TAP, or Italy.

Yeah I agree with you.  
Flying high and low